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[ElementalFury106]

Hey all. On my walk to work today I was reflecting about Grey Wardens in general, and something dawned on me.

 

Warning: Lots of text and theorizing inbound. 

 

Solas is clearly against the Grey Wardens as an organization. He greatly favors the exiling of them by the Inquisition. Yet something about Solas' distrust/hate for the Wardens has always bothered me--Solas claims that the Wardens are too reckless and irresponsible. That they take risks and perform actions that cause massive devastation for a purpose they believe to be "serving the greater good."

 

Yet Solas does this himself. Two examples (creation of the Veil, creation of the Breach) of Solas' history show him taking an incredibly similar approach to his actions and both having catastrophic effects. What's similar about Solas' actions is that he deems his actions must been done, for the greater good of his cause and the world. 

 

Yet the Wardens claim the same. And yet Solas bashes on them in an almost hypocritical sense.

 

We know Solas believes in extreme actions to get a desired result. He truly believes in the end justifying the means. He expresses that in his Trespasser dialogue:

 

"I did not wage war against immortal God-Kings without getting my hands bloody"

 

"I am not Corypheus, I take no joy in what I must do. But the return of my people means the end of yours."

 

Solas also shows approval of such radical action during a dialogue with Iron Bull, in a situation where Bull sacrificed the Chargers.

 

Iron Bull: The chargers died for the mission, to secure the alliance. They died as heroes.

Solas: I was not doubting/questioning that.

 

Solas is upset with Bull not because of the outcome, but because Bull did it for the wrong reasons, that reason being unwavering loyalty to the Qun.

 

So then, why does Solas hate the Wardens when he himself approves of and takes such radical actions to support his cause, just as the Wardens do?

 

My realization: Solas' hatred of the Wardens is another case of Solas "fixing" his mistakes. Solas admits that he led Corypheus to his orb, allowing him and his Venatori to locate and unlock its power. We find out that Corypheus had also seized control of the Wardens, before the explosion at Haven. Solas must've known about this, and yet he saw the Wardens as just another tool for Corypheus, to perish alongside with him. Corypheus survives, and thus is able to continue commanding Wardens. This is why Solas has this irrational, personal disdain for the Wardens. They were pawns in his plan, and his plan failed. The Warden's corruption is another one of Solas' failure, and he is intent on destroying them and rectifying his "mistakes."

 

This explains why Solas has an unjust hatred for the Wardens. The issue is with not with the organization itself, as Solas is quite radical and reckless himself, but a personal issue.

 

And another thing: Solas may have shared a clue as to what "immortality" truly is. In trespasser he reveals the Elves were once immortal, and it was due to their conscious/natural connection to the Fade, as it was part of Thedas once. Once the veil separated the Fade and Thedas, Elves lost their immortality. Yet Corypheus has discovered it;

 

"I did not foresee a Tevinter Magister discovering the means of effective immortality."

 

But we find out how exactly Corypheus is immortal. Whenever he is killed, his spirit essence transfers to any blighted creature: darkspawn, Warden, or otherwise. This includes his dragon, and though it is never mentioned, he probably could've transferred his soul into any Red Templar, as they are now blighted beings. 

 

So "effective immortality" must mean: transferring your essence into a kindred vessel. A vessel who shares a commonality of sort. We learned how Mythal was killed and she transferred her essence to Flemeth, who was human first. 

 

So does that explain how Elves were immortal? When they were killed, they would transfer their souls to a spirit (remember, the Fade and Thedas were connected at this time) and that spirit would become a reincarnation of sorts of the Elf?

[robertmarilyn]

I'm pretty disgusted by the hypocritical views of Solas. He hates people and things that exist only because of the many mistakes he made. He hates people who have the same failings and flaws as he does. He's willing to kill for the mistakes he made. Playing the game again, since playing Trespasser, is quite the eye opener and what we know does not reflect well on Solas. I do enjoy hearing what Solas has to say in the game more, now that I know what I thought he meant when I first played, is a lot different than he really means. 

 

On the subject of the early elves and immortality. If they weren't killed by someone, would an elf be able to live forever in their original body or would they eventually have to body swap to something else? They must age physically, in a way, because they grow up from babies to adults. Where does that stop? At 40, 45, or what age? Wish we knew more about that lore. I wouldn't want to be immortal if I had to look like Cory. 

[Heimdall]

Part of Solas' dislike seems to come from the belief that they act without fully understanding what they're doing, I don't think he blames them for fighting the Darkspawn or even killing the Archdemons. He objects mostly to the plan to kill the Old Gods before they can become Archdemons. He indicates that something terrible will happen if they all die.

[Aren]

 I believe that Solas didn't particularly care about the fate of the old gods,his objection in banter with Blackwall,as well as his anger towards the GW was more akin to the way in which they wanted to use the spirits.

Since now we know that most demons came into existence because they are summoned by mages from the fade and forced to cross the veil.

In doing so Solas was afraid that the GW plan would have transformed spirits into demons.

He does not care for the old gods or the archdemons.

 

[ElementalFury106]

I'm pretty disgusted by the hypocritical views of Solas. He hates people and things that exist only because of the many mistakes he made. He hates people who have the same failings and flaws as he does. He's willing to kill for the mistakes he made. Playing the game again, since playing Trespasser, is quite the eye opener and what we know does not reflect well on Solas. I do enjoy hearing what Solas has to say in the game more, now that I know what I thought he meant when I first played, is a lot different than he really means. 

 

On the subject of the early elves and immortality. If they weren't killed by someone, would an elf be able to live forever in their original body or would they eventually have to body swap to something else? They must age physically, in a way, because they grow up from babies to adults. Where does that stop? At 40, 45, or what age? Wish we knew more about that lore. I wouldn't want to be immortal if I had to look like Cory. 

 

According to Morrigan's discovery, Flemeth swaps bodies to maintain herself over the years. Though Flemeth is technically human, she has the essence of Mythal within her, so that could be a clue that the ancient Elves did swap bodies during their immortal years to avoid the decaying of their bodies.

 

Or their bodies simply didn't decay at all, after a certain period of aging.

 

Maybe Flemeth ages because she's partly human, yet she's immortal because of Mythal's essence. We do know for a fact that she is immortal, as we have the chance to slay her in DA:O yet she's revived in DA2 by the Dalish.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

On the subject of the early elves and immortality. If they weren't killed by someone, would an elf be able to live forever in their original body or would they eventually have to body swap to something else? They must age physically, in a way, because they grow up from babies to adults. Where does that stop? At 40, 45, or what age? Wish we knew more about that lore. I wouldn't want to be immortal if I had to look like Cory. 

Ceasing to physically age at maturity would be logical, and I don't think it's a stretch to think that even real creatures could do this, in theory.

[Wahed89]

Good observations.

I think it's telling that Solas dislikes them, but not to the extent that he seems overly concerned about them. He gives his opinion sure, but you would expect him to be far more manipulative and insistent with the inquisitor if he was truly that concerned about them.

I think he just hates the way they do the joining. My theory is that the blight was a tool created by the Evanuris to control the Titans (hence why Mythal struck down the Titan as it was the first to be blighted and then the Evanuris killed her), and from that the blight and everything that is blighted is therefore a potential tool for the Evanuris.

But yeah, that's just my wild guess based on my wilder guess lol.

[Aren]

According to Morrigan's discovery, Flemeth swaps bodies to maintain herself over the years. Though Flemeth is technically human, she has the essence of Mythal within her, so that could be a clue that the ancient Elves did swap bodies during their immortal years to avoid the decaying of their bodies.

 

Or their bodies simply didn't decay at all, after a certain period of aging.

 

Maybe Flemeth ages because she's partly human, yet she's immortal because of Mythal's essence. We do know for a fact that she is immortal, as we have the chance to slay her in DA:O yet she's revived in DA2 by the Dalish.

Morrigan was pretty much wrong since Yavana is old of centuries but looks younger.

Similarly Flemeth returned "young" in DAII with a ritual that details are probably only in Merrill's hands,without apparently use any new body.

Also when Morrigan was a child Flemeth was young with black hair but started to get old more quickly than usual.

So i would say that the method that they use for their youth is something unknown.

With the veil ,effective immortality is absent(unless you are like Corypheus and use as source the black city) as it is the elven eternal youth,this is way Solas went to sleep to not become older.

Same with Abelas and the sentinels,they are always in Uthenera to avoid aging

[Qun00]

He just loves Old Gods too much, for reasons we have yet to find out.

As for the rest, you're right. I hadn't realized how hypocritical Solas can be.

[In Exile]

People read far too much into his disdain for the Wardens. He hates them because he hates organizations, and especially organizations that have become corrupted as to their original purpose. Remember, his entire quest - everything that defines him and his guilt - springs from the fact that the Evanuris, who were once heroes, became tyrants, and such tyrants that Solas essentially fundamentally altered (and destroyed) his world to stop them.

 

I'm sure there are reasons why he feels the GWs are idiots re: what they're doing to the ADs. But his actual hatred of the organization is a philosophical point. He also dislikes the Red Jenny's as a concept, which you hear in banter with Sera. 

[ThePhoenixKing]

Here's another idea. Solas and the Enavaris are basically gods, right? (by some definition of the term, anyway). Well, who else besides the Wardens have any practical experience killing gods? It might just be self-preservation masked as moral indignation; Solas wants to get rid of the people who have the best chance at killing him, and if they knew about his ultimate plans, would do all in their power to put him down.

 

There's also a perspective issue present as well. For the Wardens, the world is ultimately worth fighting and sacrificing for; the peoples of Thedas have to be protected from the Blight. For Solas, though, I get the impression he considers Thedas to be utterly beyond saving. Why go through all this struggle and take such risks for something that doesn't deserve to live?

[ElementalFury106]

People read far too much into his disdain for the Wardens. He hates them because he hates organizations, and especially organizations that have become corrupted as to their original purpose. Remember, his entire quest - everything that defines him and his guilt - springs from the fact that the Evanuris, who were once heroes, became tyrants, and such tyrants that Solas essentially fundamentally altered (and destroyed) his world to stop them.

 

I'm sure there are reasons why he feels the GWs are idiots re: what they're doing to the ADs. But his actual hatred of the organization is a philosophical point. He also dislikes the Red Jenny's as a concept, which you hear in banter with Sera. 

 

I can't say I agree with that last part. Solas actually encourages a more organized approach to the Red Jennies and Sera is the one who refuses.

 

If he hated organizations, why would he;

 

1) Create his own, twice now

2) Support and help lead the Inquisition

3) Encourage a more unified and effective Red Jenny force

4) Be an admirer of Briala and her underground Elven organization of saboteurs 

[Gervaise]

Solas' principle concern with stopping the Wardens has nothing to do with the corruption of spirits.    There is one dialogue option that I took where I specifically told him not to worry because we were going to try and help the spirits (I paraphrase) and I got one of those blank incomprehension moments that you get from time to time with Solas, before he recovered himself.     It was clear that whatever was bothering him, it wasn't simply the fact that they were dragging innocent spirits out of the Fade and turning them into demons.  After Trespasser it is clear that he knows a lot more about the origins of the Blight and what is going on down there in the Deep Roads if he only chose to tell us.   I think he fears that the Wardens blundering around down there looking for the last two archdemons could accidentally release something a whole lot worse.   I also think this is the reason he wants to wipe the slate clean, so the fires of chaos when he drops the Veil will cleanse the world of whatever it is that he is afraid of.    In fact the red lyrium on the surface is bad news and something that may ultimately take over the world since the tranquil researching it a Suledin Keep said it was impossible to remove it since it affects anything that is living, even the smallest bugs and bacteria in the soil.

 

As for immortality; basically there are two different types, one concerned with not aging, the other with no being able to be killed.    Pre-Veil the elves got to a certain point and then no longer aged.   This is why some elders would go into uthenera simply to make way for the new generation.   So all elves were immortal (ageless).    This probably stems from the fact that they originated as spirits and so long as they were in direct contact with the Fade, their material bodies could not age.     So far as being killed is concerned, we do not know whether evanuris killed rebels and traitors or not.       It may be that instead they put a geas on them, compelling them to service (which I think may have been the case with Solas and Mythal).   If Mythal was the first instance of one of their number being murdered, may be no one knew exactly what would happen.    She would appear to have been reduced to the state of a wisp, a very low grade spirit, initially and then built back from there.    I wouldn't read too much into Solas' words; he knows now that Mythal was not totally slain but at the time he may not have been aware.    What he would have realised was that he was just one powerful being with a lot of lesser followers against seven evanuris.    The odds in that would not have been good.    So rather than risk a failed confrontation, he devised an alternative plan that would imprison them where their magic would not help them.     

[Sports72Xtrm]

Grey Wardens taint themselves. Red Templars taint themselves. both organizations supposedly do so for the "greater good". Grey Wardens sacrifice people to the darkspawn, both in conscription and in war, without any idea that their methods are actually succeeding in keeping Thedas safe. The Grey Wardens also triedd to extinct the griffons. When Solas says that the Grey Wardens are being idiots... he's not wrong. His distaste for them is in their methods and so deluded by the Grey Wardens' single minded focus that they won't even consider that what they are doing is idiotic. There is "getting your hands dirty" to make things better with reason and thoughtfulness, and there is being a delusional fool. The Grey Wardens in Solas' opinion are being the latter.

[IanPolaris]

Grey Wardens taint themselves. Red Templars taint themselves. both organizations supposedly do so for the "greater good". Grey Wardens sacrifice people to the darkspawn, both in conscription and in war, without any idea that their methods are actually succeeding in keeping Thedas safe. The Grey Wardens also triedd to extinct the griffons. When Solas says that the Grey Wardens are being idiots... he's not wrong. His distaste for them is in their methods and so deluded by the Grey Wardens' single minded focus that they won't even consider that what they are doing is idiotic. There is "getting your hands dirty" to make things better with reason and thoughtfulness, and there is being a delusional fool. The Grey Wardens in Solas' opinion are being the latter.

 

That's all well and good but when challenged Solas is strangely silent when it comes to what he would do better.  Solas loses major points with me for that. It's one thing to criticize the Warden's methods (and I don't entirely disagree), but it's quite another to carp without offering a viable alternative.

[Sports72Xtrm]

That's all well and good but when challenged Solas is strangely silent when it comes to what he would do better.  Solas loses major points with me for that. It's one thing to criticize the Warden's methods (and I don't entirely disagree), but it's quite another to carp without offering a viable alternative.

The Orlesian Grey Wardens enslaved themselves to Corypheus, sacrificed their own warriors and many innocents, summoned a demon army into Thedas believing they could storm the Deep Roads and slay the Old Gods. Even if we excuse them trying to weponize their taint, they acted with out reason and callousness. Trying to kill the Old Gods in a pre-emptive strike is risky. Last time someone even tried to to contact an Old God was when the Architect woke Uthemriel and created the 5th Blight. Perhaps they slumber for a reason and trying to kill them may be waking up a monster that was initially subdued but was released because the Grey Wardens were scared. What if a Grey Warden was eaten by an Archdemon and gained sentience like the Architect? Solas should lose points because he should yell at scared children endangering themselves and others out of some misguided sense of duty? Are you saying the Grey Wardens are in the right because of good intentions but lack forethought of the consequences no matter how disasterous it may be? Solas may be right in this case that action is not inherently superior to inaction- which is what you are criticizing Solas for. The Orlesian Grey Wardens weren't fighting a Blight, they tried to pre-emptively stop it with no heed to the consequences of their actions. Would you not act as Solas did and scold the Grey Wardens if their actions were in fact world ending, to give you a better understanding of the gravity of the situation?

[IanPolaris]

The Orlesian Grey Wardens enslaved themselves to Corypheus, sacrificed their own warriors and many innocents, summoned a demon army into Thedas believing they could storm the Deep Roads and slay the Old Gods. Even if we excuse them trying to weponize their taint, they acted with out reason and callousness. Trying to kill the Old Gods in a pre-emptive strike is risky. Last time someone even tried to to contact an Old God was when the Architect woke Uthemriel and created the 5th Blight. Perhaps they slumber for a reason and trying to kill them may be waking up a monster that was initially subdued but was released because the Grey Wardens were scared. What if a Grey Warden was eaten by an Archdemon and gained sentience like the Architect? Solas should lose points because he should yell at scared children endangering themselves and others out of some misguided sense of duty? Are you saying the Grey Wardens are in the right because of good intentions but lack forethought of the consequences no matter how disasterous it may be? Solas may be right in this case that action is not inherently superior to inaction- which is what you are criticizing Solas for. The Orlesian Grey Wardens weren't fighting a Blight, they tried to pre-emptively stop it with no heed to the consequences of their actions. Would you not act as Solas did and scold the Grey Wardens if their actions were in fact world ending, to give you a better understanding of the gravity of the situation?

 

The Orlesian Grey Wardens enslaved themselves to Corypheus, sacrificed their own warriors and many innocents, summoned a demon army into Thedas believing they could storm the Deep Roads and slay the Old Gods. Even if we excuse them trying to weponize their taint, they acted with out reason and callousness. Trying to kill the Old Gods in a pre-emptive strike is risky. Last time someone even tried to to contact an Old God was when the Architect woke Uthemriel and created the 5th Blight. Perhaps they slumber for a reason and trying to kill them may be waking up a monster that was initially subdued but was released because the Grey Wardens were scared. What if a Grey Warden was eaten by an Archdemon and gained sentience like the Architect? Solas should lose points because he should yell at scared children endangering themselves and others out of some misguided sense of duty? Are you saying the Grey Wardens are in the right because of good intentions but lack forethought of the consequences no matter how disasterous it may be? Solas may be right in this case that action is not inherently superior to inaction- which is what you are criticizing Solas for. The Orlesian Grey Wardens weren't fighting a Blight, they tried to pre-emptively stop it with no heed to the consequences of their actions. Would you not act as Solas did and scold the Grey Wardens if their actions were in fact world ending, to give you a better understanding of the gravity of the situation?

 

OK Smart Guy.  Who stops the next blight?  You?  Bioware handed the Grey Wardens the idiot ball in DA:I just to provoke thoughtless reactions like the one I've just posted.  In truth, the Grey Wardens could and should have reasonable suspicious of any Tevinter Blood Mages that just "wanted to help" especially when they knew (or should have known at least at the highest levels) that Cory was out....given they KNEW Cory could influence Warden minds.

 

That's my big issue with Solas.  It's easy to criticize but if he can't come up with a better solution than he should shut the hell up.  Either help solve the problem, follow those that at least try to solve the problem, or get the HELL out  of the way and shut up;.

[In Exile]

I can't say I agree with that last part. Solas actually encourages a more organized approach to the Red Jennies and Sera is the one who refuses.

If he hated organizations, why would he;

1) Create his own, twice now
2) Support and help lead the Inquisition
3) Encourage a more unified and effective Red Jenny force
4) Be an admirer of Briala and her underground Elven organization of saboteurs

He doesn't hate organisations. As I said: he hates organisation that become twisted as to their original purpose, which he sees as inevitable. But you're right about the Red Jenny conversation - it's Sera that makes the insightful point there. I misremembered. It may have been a conversation about the Inquisition where Solas makes the point about organisations becoming corrupted.

[In Exile]

That's all well and good but when challenged Solas is strangely silent when it comes to what he would do better. Solas loses major points with me for that. It's one thing to criticize the Warden's methods (and I don't entirely disagree), but it's quite another to carp without offering a viable alternative.

I disagree. Or rather, I would agree in the abstract but totally disagree in the specific case. The Warden plan is total insanity. In this case, "do absolutely nothing until you get a better plan" IS the viable alternative.

[In Exile]

OK Smart Guy. Who stops the next blight? You? Bioware handed the Grey Wardens the idiot ball in DA:I just to provoke thoughtless reactions like the one I've just posted. In truth, the Grey Wardens could and should have reasonable suspicious of any Tevinter Blood Mages that just "wanted to help" especially when they knew (or should have known at least at the highest levels) that Cory was out....given they KNEW Cory could influence Warden minds.

That's my big issue with Solas. It's easy to criticize but if he can't come up with a better solution than he should shut the hell up. Either help solve the problem, follow those that at least try to solve the problem, or get the HELL out of the way and shut up;.

The Wardens are the idiot ball. They've gripped it tighter than humanely possible ever since Ostagar, tripled down on it when we met Riordan, and then continued on their way through Legacy in DA2 and then DAI. The Warden's are a miracle, but moreso in that their order has somehow managed not to either wipe itself or all of Thedas out so far.

[Almostfaceman]

 

So does that explain how Elves were immortal? When they were killed, they would transfer their souls to a spirit (remember, the Fade and Thedas were connected at this time) and that spirit would become a reincarnation of sorts of the Elf?

 

No. Elven immortality is not the same thing as body-swapping. It is their nature, tied with the Beyond, or Fade. This is how Solas describes it. This is why, when Solas is talking about it, he makes the distinction in calling it "effective immortality". 

[Almostfaceman]

He just loves Old Gods too much, for reasons we have yet to find out.

As for the rest, you're right. I hadn't realized how hypocritical Solas can be.

 

Or, he hates the idea of blundering about killing things without knowing what they're really killing and what the consequences may be truly. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

OK Smart Guy.  Who stops the next blight?  You?  Bioware handed the Grey Wardens the idiot ball in DA:I just to provoke thoughtless reactions like the one I've just posted.  In truth, the Grey Wardens could and should have reasonable suspicious of any Tevinter Blood Mages that just "wanted to help" especially when they knew (or should have known at least at the highest levels) that Cory was out....given they KNEW Cory could influence Warden minds.

 

That's my big issue with Solas.  It's easy to criticize but if he can't come up with a better solution than he should shut the hell up.  Either help solve the problem, follow those that at least try to solve the problem, or get the HELL out  of the way and shut up;.

Well Solas aids in besieging Adamant Fortress and saving the world by shutting down the Grey Wardens who were a few steps from destroying the world. Like it or not, Solas and the Inquisition was the solution and the Grey Wardens were the problem. Thinking you are the best hope for humanity when in reality you are leading them to their doom is proven to be more dangerous than those who were cautious and did nothing. Shouldn't you be telling the Grey Wardens to shut the hell up since it was them that fucked up and not Solas?

[IanPolaris]

Well Solas aids in besieging Adamant Fortress and saving the world by shutting down the Grey Wardens who were a few steps from destroying the world. Like it or not, Solas and the Inquisition was the solution and the Grey Wardens were the problem. Thinking you are the best hope for humanity when in reality you are leading them to their doom is proven to be more dangerous than those who were cautious and did nothing. Shouldn't you be telling the Grey Wardens to shut the hell up since it was them that fucked up and not Solas?

 

Yes but then Solas would have us eliminate the Grey Wardens entirely (he greatly approves of exiling them and makes it clear he doesn't like ANY Grey Wardens).  So my point stands: OK Bub.  What's YOUR plan then the next Arch-Demon comes along.  I'll listen.

 

Oh wait.....you don't have one (other than destroy the world).

 

Thanks but no thanks.

[IanPolaris]

Or, he hates the idea of blundering about killing things without knowing what they're really killing and what the consequences may be truly. 

 

I sympathize and even agree with this to some degree (it's one reason my wardens generally do the Dark Ritual).  However, if the choice is kill a creature and face unknown consequences, or accept the 100% certainty that the world will all be blighted (essentially destroying it), that's not a hard choice.