91 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

The Wardens are the idiot ball. They've gripped it tighter than humanely possible ever since Ostagar, tripled down on it when we met Riordan, and then continued on their way through Legacy in DA2 and then DAI. The Warden's are a miracle, but moreso in that their order has somehow managed not to either wipe itself or all of Thedas out so far.

 

That simply isn't true.  You may agree or disagree with some of the Warden's actions (both individually and as an organization) but given Cory's abilities, it turns out that locking him away and (at least trying) to throw away the key was absolutely the right way to go!  That's what makes the Clarel's actions (and she knows all about Cory) so idiotic.  What only Stroud (or Loghain) had the sense to even question the idiotic plan by a 'sympathetic Tevinter Magister'?  Really?????

[IanPolaris]

I disagree. Or rather, I would agree in the abstract but totally disagree in the specific case. The Warden plan is total insanity. In this case, "do absolutely nothing until you get a better plan" IS the viable alternative.

 

That's only because the writers at Bioware deliberately handed Warden Commander Clarel the idiot ball (to try to provoke the players into hating the Grey Wardens).

[Sports72Xtrm]

Yes but then Solas would have us eliminate the Grey Wardens entirely (he greatly approves of exiling them and makes it clear he doesn't like ANY Grey Wardens).  So my point stands: OK Bub.  What's YOUR plan then the next Arch-Demon comes along.  I'll listen.

 

Oh wait.....you don't have one (other than destroy the world).

 

Thanks but no thanks.

First of all I am not Solas, so when you are asking for MY plan, it is not Solas you are speaking to. Solas is a fictional character ok? Just in case you are beginning to take this whole debate personally. But since Solas is a hundreds of year old god with actual experience with elven gods and probably old gods, he'd probably would have a plan to deal with them. We know killing an old god is not actually necessary since you can transfer the old god soul to another host.But that in itself won't destroy the taint, darkspawn would still exist. So kiling all the Old Gods will not erase the darkspawn's existence or the blight. Secondly, he makes it clear that the Grey Wardens are inept of actually accomplishing their goal and are misguided. He doesn't "hate" Grey Wardens, he thinks their efforts are idiotic and meaningless. It only spreads the taint, conscripting the best of the mortals' champions and condemning them to eventually become darkspawn and ghouls themselves by having them undergo the joining. And why not exile them? He's not executing them, he's exiling them because they are a cult trying to spread a disease and saying it has a purpose when it doesn't. Exile them so they can do less damage but if there is another blight, they'd still be able to fight. Are you so obstinate that you'd delude yourself in blind zealotry despite the havoc it caused rather than admit the Grey Warden's faults? There's nothing heroic or virtuous about performing reckless action that leads to doom.

[Medhia_Nox]

Part of Solas' dislike seems to come from the belief that they act without fully understanding what they're doing, I don't think he blames them for fighting the Darkspawn or even killing the Archdemons. He objects mostly to the plan to kill the Old Gods before they can become Archdemons. He indicates that something terrible will happen if they all die.

Like... when we created the Veil and destroyed the elves?

Or... maybe when he gave Corypheus his orb and caused the Breach? 

 

The elf is a hypocrite and an idiot. 

[Heimdall]

Like... when we created the Veil and destroyed the elves?

Or... maybe when he gave Corypheus his orb and caused the Breach? 
 
The elf is a hypocrite and an idiot.

I'm reserving judgment until I find out exactly what the Evanuris were planning that distressed him so much and was worth killing Mythal over.

He can't be blamed for that plan going wrong. He couldn't have known that Corypheus was virtually unkillable unless he was with Hawke when he was released and if he had been able to retrieve the orb as planned he would have been able to enact his plan right then.

[IanPolaris]

I'm reserving judgment until I find out exactly what the Evanuris were planning that distressed him so much and was worth killing Mythal over.

He can't be blamed for that plan going wrong. He couldn't have known that Corypheus was virtually unkillable unless he was with Hawke when he was released and if he had been able to retrieve the orb as planned he would have been able to enact his plan right then.

 

Yet Solas isn't willing to give the Grey Wardens the benefit of the doubt NOR is he willing to help share what he knows because...you know....blights are bad?!?

 

I think it's VERY fair to challenge ANYONE that agrees with Solas w/r/t the Grey Wardens: OK bub, what's your plan.  Varric of all people is the only one that challenges Solas on this point and the clown equivocates.  Solas lost major points with me there.

[IanPolaris]

First of all I am not Solas, so when you are asking for MY plan, it is not Solas you are speaking to. Solas is a fictional character ok? Just in case you are beginning to take this whole debate personally. But since Solas is a hundreds of year old god with actual experience with elven gods and probably old gods, he'd probably would have a plan to deal with them. We know killing an old god is not actually necessary since you can transfer the old god soul to another host.But that in itself won't destroy the taint, darkspawn would still exist. So kiling all the Old Gods will not erase the darkspawn's existence or the blight. Secondly, he makes it clear that the Grey Wardens are inept of actually accomplishing their goal and are misguided. He doesn't "hate" Grey Wardens, he thinks their efforts are idiotic and meaningless. It only spreads the taint, conscripting the best of the mortals' champions and condemning them to eventually become darkspawn and ghouls themselves by having them undergo the joining. And why not exile them? He's not executing them, he's exiling them because they are a cult trying to spread a disease and saying it has a purpose when it doesn't. Exile them so they can do less damage but if there is another blight, they'd still be able to fight. Are you so obstinate that you'd delude yourself in blind zealotry despite the havoc it caused rather than admit the Grey Warden's faults? There's nothing heroic or virtuous about performing reckless action that leads to doom.

 

If you want to criticize me for taking this "personally" (I'm not), then don't do it yourself.

 

As for the rest, all the knowledge and wisdom in the world is pointless unless you are willing to share it.  In this case if Solas thinks the Grey Wardens are so idiotic, then he should share and come up with something better.  Given how Solas equivocates with Varris (the only NPC that raises this point), I don't think Solas actually has one (outside of destroying the world.....a non-starter).    Again, Solas and those that agree with him lose major points in my book for this.

[In Exile]

That simply isn't true.  You may agree or disagree with some of the Warden's actions (both individually and as an organization) but given Cory's abilities, it turns out that locking him away and (at least trying) to throw away the key was absolutely the right way to go!  That's what makes the Clarel's actions (and she knows all about Cory) so idiotic.  What only Stroud (or Loghain) had the sense to even question the idiotic plan by a 'sympathetic Tevinter Magister'?  Really?????

I'm not talking about sealing Corypheus. I'm talking about the unbridled insanity that is the plan to let him go. As is the plan to actually execute the seal with "Wardens" who took part in the Joining. That's clearly a ritual and a prison that shouldn't have anyone infected with the taint within a thousand miles of it.

 

Clarel's actions are par for the usual stupid course. Duncan in DA:O actively participates in a plan that's not only almost certainly doomed to failure (unless his Wardens can sprout wings) but obviously dooms all of Ferelden if anything goes wrong (because he just shoved every single being that can kill an AD into an easy kill zone for a dive bombing, fire breathing monster). 

 

And then we have the almost unparalled stupidity of Riordan, which starts with recruiting exactly 0 order meatsacks into the Wardens, and ends with his actual suicide attempt. His plan is so stupid it is the actual equivalent of hitting a bullet with another bullet. 

 

So we've got all these suicidal idiots. And following that we have Clarel. Whose plan is to suicidally charge into the Deep Roads. That's just par for the stupid course, except it could actually succeed if demons could be bound. Which we see Avernus do, so that's not even an unusual bit of Grey Warden plotting. 

[In Exile]

That's only because the writers at Bioware deliberately handed Warden Commander Clarel the idiot ball (to try to provoke the players into hating the Grey Wardens).

 

No. The Wardens always have gripped the idiot ball, like I said. Clarel is actually impressively competent compared to Duncan and Riordan, both of whose plans are not only stupid, but basically can't succeed. Her plot is only stupid compared with regular plans. Compared to Grey Warden plans, she's probably their most cunning commander in millenia. 

[IanPolaris]

No. The Wardens always have gripped the idiot ball, like I said. Clarel is actually impressively competent compared to Duncan and Riordan, both of whose plans are not only stupid, but basically can't succeed. Her plot is only stupid compared with regular plans. Compared to Grey Warden plans, she's probably their most cunning commander in millenia. 

 

No they really haven't.  I will answer your points above in bold.

[IanPolaris]

I'm not talking about sealing Corypheus. I'm talking about the unbridled insanity that is the plan to let him go. As is the plan to actually execute the seal with "Wardens" who took part in the Joining. That's clearly a ritual and a prison that shouldn't have anyone infected with the taint within a thousand miles of it.

 

It's also very clear that Janeka is acting in a rogue capacity (and you can make that point with her warden campanions).  Also one of the problems with locking away a problem and forgetting the key is forgetting that that there is a problem (or why it's a problem).  That's not a Warden failing.  It's a human being failing.  It's grossly unfair to blame the Wardens et al for Janeka's actions.

 

Clarel's actions are par for the usual stupid course. Duncan in DA:O actively participates in a plan that's not only almost certainly doomed to failure (unless his Wardens can sprout wings) but obviously dooms all of Ferelden if anything goes wrong (because he just shoved every single being that can kill an AD into an easy kill zone for a dive bombing, fire breathing monster). 

 

If you must blame someone for Ostagar, blame King Cailan for NOT listening to his Warden-Commander and thus the closest available thing to a resident expert.  Duncan wanted reinforcements from Orlais...or at least at minimum from Redcliff.  Let's also not forget that it was Loghain's plan not Duncan's that got all the Wardens killed.

 

And then we have the almost unparalled stupidity of Riordan, which starts with recruiting exactly 0 order meatsacks into the Wardens, and ends with his actual suicide attempt. His plan is so stupid it is the actual equivalent of hitting a bullet with another bullet. 

 

Facts not in evidence.  You don't know how much Arch-Demon blood Riordan has.  Don't forget that it was Riordan's mission to scout out Fereldan and see if action could be taken against Loghain (since Loghain was making it harder to fight the blight), but recruitment was NOT his mission.  The Wardens as a whole were writing Fereldan off and seeing if they could contain it (and stop it from spreading to Nevarra, Orlais, and the Free Marches).  In DAI you actually see a letter from the (real) Constable Blackwell that addresses this very point.  The Wardens aren't doing that because they hate Fereldan but because as far as they knew they were put in a politically impossible situation.  [Remember that Fereldan had only reversed the Grey Warden exile a generation earlier.]

 

So we've got all these suicidal idiots. And following that we have Clarel. Whose plan is to suicidally charge into the Deep Roads. That's just par for the stupid course, except it could actually succeed if demons could be bound. Which we see Avernus do, so that's not even an unusual bit of Grey Warden plotting. 

 

There was nothing ipso facto "stupid" about Clarel's plan assuming of course that one could bind that many Demons safely.  You will notice that Grey Wardens have always permitted blood magic, but they haven't done anything so extreme in well over a thousand years.  Why?  Because until DAI the Wardens were not hit with the idiot ball.  The plan is obviously innane not because it might actually work but because 1) if it doesn't then you've actually created two world destroying problems instead of solving the one and 2) you can't know what the consequences would be (such as would the Demons actually stop)....oh and 3) Grey Wardens know perfectly well that blood magic sacrifice involves a price and that price isn't always obvious.  As for Avernus, as vile as the man is, he DID single handedly keep a potential demonic disaster contained for nearly three centuries and he IS willing to answer to Grey Warden justice.

 

[sniper_arrow]

I can't say I agree with that last part. Solas actually encourages a more organized approach to the Red Jennies and Sera is the one who refuses.

 

If he hated organizations, why would he;

 

1) Create his own, twice now

2) Support and help lead the Inquisition

3) Encourage a more unified and effective Red Jenny force

4) Be an admirer of Briala and her underground Elven organization of saboteurs 

 

I can't say I agree with that last part. Solas actually encourages a more organized approach to the Red Jennies and Sera is the one who refuses.

 

If he hated organizations, why would he;

 

1) Create his own, twice now

2) Support and help lead the Inquisition

3) Encourage a more unified and effective Red Jenny force

4) Be an admirer of Briala and her underground Elven organization of saboteurs 

 

1. The first one was to stop the Evanuris and Mythal was the head honcho on the first one until she was murdered. The second time? The irony seems to escape him. 

2. He didn't lead the Inquisition. He joined them to stop Corypheus and retrieve his orb. He also kept a close eye his potential enemies (including the Inquisitor).

3 & 4. He relates to Sera and Briala in a sense that they wanted to help the common people against the nobles. In his POV:

Sera/Briala = him

Nobles = Evanuris

Common people = the ancient elves. 

[Madfox11]

The Warden plan in DAI is foolish, but it does like something humans in the grip of panic would actually do even without the subtle mind control through the blood and absolute control once bound to a demon. They think every single Warden in the world is either dying or changing into ghouls within the next year or so. Is it also actually confirmed Clarel knew about Corpheus? It is clear that very few of the leaders within the organization knew about him and they are all in Weishaup, aren't they?

 

As for Duncan and Riordan: Duncan was in an impossible position, and he did at least try to save two Wardens by sending them to a supposedly save tower. Nobody knew it was infested with darkspawn, and if Loghain could get away with his army, so could any Warden in that tower under normal circumstances. Considering virtually everybody dies or becomes a ghoul that drinks darkspawn blood, I doubt Riordan could go on a recruitment spree even after the Warden recorvered the demon blood in Denarim. There was no time, and randomly poisoning people in a scale large enough to get a decent number of Wardens is bound to draw a lot of attention.

 

Am I impressed by the Wardens? No. Do I think they are particularly stupid? No.They appear to be a typical human organization with a very narrow focus they seem to follow to an almost religious fanatism

[IanPolaris]

Clarel does know about Corypheus.  When you confront her in Adamant and tell her that this was a trick engineered by Cory, she exclaims, "But Corypheus is dead!"  That pretty much confirms that she was senior enough to know about him (which should surprise no one since she was the Warden Commander of Orlais).

[Madfox11]

So she knew about him, but only up to a point. She was obviously unaware he had the same powers as an archfiend otherwise she would not be surprised about him living.

[IanPolaris]

So she knew about him, but only up to a point. She was obviously unaware he had the same powers as an archfiend otherwise she would not be surprised about him living.

 

Except if you do Wicked Hearts first (and you easily can), then the Grand Duchess announces in open court in front of the Maker and Everyone that she serves CORYPHEUS, the Elder One.

 

Um, CLUE FILE!

 

The point is that all the Wardens in Fereldan and Orlais all suddenly start getting the calling all at once....and no one smells a rat?  REALLY?!?  And they listen to the first Tevinter Blood-Mage of dubious reputation who gives them an easy way out that sounds too good to be true.  REALLY????

 

No, it's quite plain at least to me that Bioware handed the Grey Wardens and Warden-Commander Clarel in particular the idiot ball in order to emotionally manipulate us into disliking the Wardens.  Bioware didn't just do that with the Wardens either but with the Mage Rebels (esp Fiona) and the Dalish Elves (three mage rule) as well.

[Il Divo]

If you must blame someone for Ostagar, blame King Cailan for NOT listening to his Warden-Commander and thus the closest available thing to a resident expert.  Duncan wanted reinforcements from Orlais...or at least at minimum from Redcliff.  Let's also not forget that it was Loghain's plan not Duncan's that got all the Wardens killed.

 

 

Yeah, but that doesn't really help in this context. Note that this is also tied to the Warden's insane desire for secrecy in regards to how they slay the Arch-demon, but the fact remains that if you know your Commander is not going to position your forces in a manner to kill the Arch-demon, then the Wardens may as well not be there. 

 

Wardens are the limiting factor to stop a blight. Knowing that there is an Arch-demon present should factor into those calculations. They shouldn't be in the main force of the assault, by any stretch. 

[RoughTumble]

Psychologists call it psychological projection.  It is a part of human nature whereby individuals, unable to cope with insecurities and the recognition of undesirable aspects of their personality, deny those qualities in themselves and then project those negative qualities onto someone else.  It's also called blame shifting.

 

Examples:

 

The person who is insecure about their intelligence accuses others of being stupid.

 

The aggressive person accuses others of constantly looking for a fight and claims to hate aggressive people.

 

The rude person criticizes others for being rude.

 

Solas accuses the Grey Wardens of recklessness in attempts to reshape the world and tempting destruction without regard for the lives of others.

 

..............................................

 

I'm interested to know whether the author of this character intentionally wrote this psychological quirk into Solas or whether they were shooting from the hip by observation of people and instinct.  Blame shifting is pretty common in people, but I'm impressed if the writers intentionally included that neurotic nuance.

[Former_Fiend]

See also: Solas' abject disdain for Corypheus, not in spite of but because of the fact that they're two sides of the same coin.

[Almostfaceman]

 

I sympathize and even agree with this to some degree (it's one reason my wardens generally do the Dark Ritual).  However, if the choice is kill a creature and face unknown consequences, or accept the 100% certainty that the world will all be blighted (essentially destroying it), that's not a hard choice.

 

 

That's just the thing. There's no 100% certainty that killing the Old Gods will stop the Blights. 

[Heimdall]

See also: Solas' abject disdain for Corypheus, not in spite of but because of the fact that they're two sides of the same coin.

I think Solas disdains Corypheus because he's no different from the Evanuris. He wants to become a god, to be worshipped and bring the world under his thumb. Solas' motivations are entirely altruistic (So far as he's trying to undo a wrong he feels he committed against the People)

The only thing they have in common is a will to sacrifice pawns and a desire to reshape the world... Which might be enough. Of course I think he might realize that on some level, which is why he almost seems to encourage a high approval Inquisitor to try and stop him. I don't think he's sure he's right to be doing what he's doing.

[Former_Fiend]

That's just the thing. There's no 100% certainty that killing the Old Gods will stop the Blights. 

 

Not killing them insures the blights continue. 

 

Very rarely in life do we get the benefit of acting with complete certainty. There were scientists on the Manhatten Project who feared that the explosion caused by the atom bomb would ignite the atmosphere in a chain reaction that would kill all life on the planet. 

 

Personally I'm more inclined to root for the side that takes a chance and acts instead of reacts. Killing the old gods may have dire consequences, but when you know the consequences of inaction, then it's worth taking the risk.

[Heimdall]

That's just the thing. There's no 100% certainty that killing the Old Gods will stop the Blights.

Yes, and we won't really know until we have a better understanding of the connections between the Old Gods and the Blight.

[Former_Fiend]

I think Solas disdains Corypheus because he's no different from the Evanuris. He wants to become a god, to be worshipped and bring the world under his thumb. Solas' motivations are entirely altruistic (So far as he's trying to undo a wrong he feels he committed against the People)

The only thing they have in common is a will to sacrifice pawns and a desire to reshape the world... Which might be enough. Of course I think he might realize that on some level, which is why he almost seems to encourage a high approval Inquisitor to try and stop him. I don't think he's sure he's right to be doing what he's doing.

 

Two men from the ancient past, vilified in myth, awaken into a world where their respective societies are decayed husks of their former glory largely due to their own actions. They resolve to correct that mistake by piercing/tearing down the veil and using the power gained to return their homelands to power, at the cost of literally everyone else in the world. 

 

They're more alike than you give them credit for. Corypheus literally wants to become a god and Solas detests those who aspire to the title, but he still has a messiah complex all his own, even if he doesn't use the word. Corypheus may be stronger in his conviction than Solas, but if anything that would only heighten the resentment Solas has for him.

[Heimdall]

Two men from the ancient past, vilified in myth, awaken into a world where their respective societies are decayed husks of their former glory largely due to their own actions. They resolve to correct that mistake by piercing/tearing down the veil and using the power gained to return their homelands to power, at the cost of literally everyone else in the world. 

 

They're more alike than you give them credit for. Corypheus literally wants to become a god and Solas detests those who aspire to the title, but he still has a messiah complex all his own, even if he doesn't use the word. Corypheus may be stronger in his conviction than Solas, but if anything that would only heighten the resentment Solas has for him.

On the contrary, I think you give Corypheus too much credit.  While he does want to restore his country, he is also heavily invested in the pursuit of his own power.  Becoming a god is a goal unto itself for Corypheus, but power is just a means to an end for Solas.  I also don't think Solas has a messiah complex, rather i think the primary motivator for his efforts is guilt.  He isn't just trying to bring back the ancient elves because he doesn't like the world that is, but because the world that is is entirely his fault and he knows what he took from them. (Corypheus has no such guilt, he does not blame himself for what happened to Tevinter)

 

I'm not saying there aren't parallels, but I don't think it goes very deep, just deep enough for Solas to doubt his actions.