91 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

On the contrary, I think you give Corypheus too much credit.  While he does want to restore his country, he is also heavily invested in the pursuit of his own power.  Becoming a god is a goal unto itself for Corypheus, but power is just a means to an end for Solas.  I also don't think Solas has a messiah complex, rather i think the primary motivator for his efforts is guilt.  He isn't just trying to bring back the ancient elves because he doesn't like the world that is, but because the world that is is entirely his fault and he knows what he took from them. (Corypheus has no such guilt, he does not blame himself for what happened to Tevinter)

 

I'm not saying there aren't parallels, but I don't think it goes very deep, just deep enough for Solas to doubt his actions.

 

I didn't mean to suggest that Corypheus was an altruistic being by any stretch. He is very much a creature of ambition, and it's true that, as far as we can tell, he doesn't hold himself responsible for the fall of Tevinter, even though his actions in causing the blight directly contributed to it's downfall.

 

That being said, I think it's you giving Solas too much credit. Though really I suppose it's Weekes giving Solas too much credit, however presumptuous that may sound. I look at Solas, at the same information everyone else has, and I see a man who's convinced that he is the savior of his people. That the people need him. I see a man who tries to cast himself in the most tragic, sympathetic light he can, to convince himself and the world that this horrible thing he has to do is for the greater good, and his self-imposed guilt and self pity makes him a martyr in his own mind. A man sacrificing his own decency for a noble cause. 

 

The fact that Corypheus doesn't share that guilt and self pity is, in my mind, a point in Corypheus' favor. Corypheus is the one who possessed the stronger conviction in his path, while Solas knows what he's doing is wrong and horrible and wants to be felt sorry for as he does it anyway.  

[Heimdall]

 

I didn't mean to suggest that Corypheus was an altruistic being by any stretch. He is very much a creature of ambition, and it's true that, as far as we can tell, he doesn't hold himself responsible for the fall of Tevinter, even though his actions in causing the blight directly contributed to it's downfall.

 

That being said, I think it's you giving Solas too much credit. Though really I suppose it's Weekes giving Solas too much credit, however presumptuous that may sound. I look at Solas, at the same information everyone else has, and I see a man who's convinced that he is the savior of his people. That the people need him. I see a man who tries to cast himself in the most tragic, sympathetic light he can, to convince himself and the world that this horrible thing he has to do is for the greater good, and his self-imposed guilt and self pity makes him a martyr in his own mind. A man sacrificing his own decency for a noble cause. 

 

The fact that Corypheus doesn't share that guilt and self pity is, in my mind, a point in Corypheus' favor. Corypheus is the one who possessed the stronger conviction in his path, while Solas knows what he's doing is wrong and horrible and wants to be felt sorry for as he does it anyway.  

I understand that view of Solas, but I find that what he says in Trespasser indicates a person too self-deprecating to see himself as a savior.  He's conflicted, caught between what he believes he needs to do to restore what he took from the elves and knowledge of what that would do to this world.   When he talks about his plan he doesn't sound pleased or even resolved, more helpless than anything.  I don't think he tries to wrap himself in a sympathetic light, I think he's just being honest.  He made a decision and the consequences were much worse than he intended, which he feels a responsibility to fix.  My impression, at least in the romanced playthrough, is that he feels trapped in this course he's set for himself.  I don't think he sees himself as a martyr, just that he feels responsible.

 

Corypheus had conviction to the point of single minded self destructive obsession and outright insanity.  I see him more as a pathetic and delusional figure than anything else.

 

(Though as i said earlier in this thread, I reserve the right to completely change my mind depending on more information we get about what exactly led Solas to creating the Veil and what the Evanuris were doing)

[Vorathrad]

I understand that view of Solas, but I find that what he says in Trespasser indicates a person too self-deprecating to see himself as a savior.  He's conflicted, caught between what he believes he needs to do to restore what he took from the elves and knowledge of what that would do to this world.   When he talks about his plan he doesn't sound pleased or even resolved, more helpless than anything.  I don't think he tries to wrap himself in a sympathetic light, I think he's just being honest.  He made a decision and the consequences were much worse than he intended, which he feels a responsibility to fix.  My impression, at least in the romanced playthrough, is that he feels trapped in this course he's set for himself.  I don't think he sees himself as a martyr, just that he feels responsible.

 

Corypheus had conviction to the point of single minded self destructive obsession and outright insanity.  I see him more as a pathetic and delusional figure than anything else.

 

(Though as i said earlier in this thread, I reserve the right to completely change my mind depending on more information we get about what exactly led Solas to creating the Veil and what the Evanuris were doing)

 

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong."

 

Weekes wrote both Mordin and Solas and he's repeating the pattern: sacrificing oneself to right one's wrong. In Solas case, given the consequences for thousands of people of fixing his mistake (or rather appeasing his guilt), I think there is definitely a messiah complex added there. And he definitely tries to paint himself in a sympathetic light "I find no joy in what I have to do", (to Flemeth) "I'm sorry. But the people, they need me", "I'm not a monster" (paraphrasing from memory here) While Corypheus is unapologetic about what he wants to do: he doesn't give a damn if you understand his motivations or share his goals. It's a pity his memory records are only available if you take the templar route, they add a lot of depth to his character and there the parallel with Solas is clear. He is devastated by the Tevinter he finds after waking up and is willing to take the most extreme measures to restore it to its former glory. Same as Solas.

[almasy87]

It is possible that maintaining immortality is made by hopping into another vessel when your body dies. However when Solas takes Mythal's power (or Mythal decided to body-hop into Solas), Flemeth's body clearly dies.. Which makes me think her body was long dead and only Mythal's essence was keeping it alive. So in that case shouldn't she have found a new host before this happened? Cause if they can just keep their essence or soul into an already dead body, why would they need to go into another one then?

This is all so confusing... Or maybe Mythal was supposed to eventually go into Morrigan but because of what happened, she went into Solas?

[Former_Fiend]

I understand that view of Solas, but I find that what he says in Trespasser indicates a person too self-deprecating to see himself as a savior.  He's conflicted, caught between what he believes he needs to do to restore what he took from the elves and knowledge of what that would do to this world.   When he talks about his plan he doesn't sound pleased or even resolved, more helpless than anything.  I don't think he tries to wrap himself in a sympathetic light, I think he's just being honest.  He made a decision and the consequences were much worse than he intended, which he feels a responsibility to fix.  My impression, at least in the romanced playthrough, is that he feels trapped in this course he's set for himself.  I don't think he sees himself as a martyr, just that he feels responsible.

 

Corypheus had conviction to the point of single minded self destructive obsession and outright insanity.  I see him more as a pathetic and delusional figure than anything else.

 

(Though as i said earlier in this thread, I reserve the right to completely change my mind depending on more information we get about what exactly led Solas to creating the Veil and what the Evanuris were doing)

 

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said about Corypheus, there. I just think the same applies to Solas. I think Solas believes every word that comes out of his mouth, but I don't think that makes any of it, so far as it relates to his motivations, true. That's where I think the delusion sets in; he's blind to his own messiah and martyr complexes. 

 

As far as being self destructive, well, I don't hold any regrets about killing Corypheus, and I won't hold any regrets about killing Solas, either. 

[kimgoold]

That simply isn't true.  You may agree or disagree with some of the Warden's actions (both individually and as an organization) but given Cory's abilities, it turns out that locking him away and (at least trying) to throw away the key was absolutely the right way to go!  That's what makes the Clarel's actions (and she knows all about Cory) so idiotic.  What only Stroud (or Loghain) had the sense to even question the idiotic plan by a 'sympathetic Tevinter Magister'?  Really?????

What makes it even dumber is they know about Grand Enchanter Fiona and the Tevinters behind the plot that led to her loosing her taint. Why would they even look to Tevinter is beyond belief.

[Almostfaceman]

Not killing them insures the blights continue. 

 

 

No, that's not 100% certain either. Nobody really knows what the Blight is. Where the darkspawn come from. Why there is an emergence of "intelligent" darkspawn. 

 

Solas is the big fat clue here. I don't know if you've noticed, but Bioware isn't exactly subtle when it comes to storytelling. While Solas doesn't out-and-out explain anything, he does almost freak out that the Wardens think it's as simple as killing the Old Gods to cure the Blight/stop the Blight. He knows more than he's letting on. 

 

We don't even know what Old Gods are. 

[Former_Fiend]

Oh, no, I have a pretty good idea of where Bioware's going with this and it enrages me to no end. 

 

They think they're being clever with the "the supposed big bad turns out to really be something beneficial/necessary, and/or turns out to have been a victim/pawn the entire time" routine. That was a stupid plotline when Blizzard used it seven years ago and it's a stupid plotline today, and it's going to be a stupid plotline when it finally comes to fruition in whatever installment of Dragon Age they pull the trigger on it in. 

 

I have no patience or respect for this plot development. It isn't clever, it isn't intriguing, it doesn't make the setting deeper or more interesting. It's an overused twist, and what's worse is that Bioware is using to condemn proaction as opposed to reaction, and, on a personal level, they're using it as a sledgehammer on my favorite aspect of the setting, the Wardens. 

[Il Divo]

The Blizzard plot line you're referring to, is the Wrath of the Lich king ending? 

[Heimdall]

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong."

 

Weekes wrote both Mordin and Solas and he's repeating the pattern: sacrificing oneself to right one's wrong. In Solas case, given the consequences for thousands of people of fixing his mistake (or rather appeasing his guilt), I think there is definitely a messiah complex added there. And he definitely tries to paint himself in a sympathetic light "I find no joy in what I have to do", (to Flemeth) "I'm sorry. But the people, they need me", "I'm not a monster" (paraphrasing from memory here) While Corypheus is unapologetic about what he wants to do: he doesn't give a damn if you understand his motivations or share his goals. It's a pity his memory records are only available if you take the templar route, they add a lot of depth to his character and there the parallel with Solas is clear. He is devastated by the Tevinter he finds after waking up and is willing to take the most extreme measures to restore it to its former glory. Same as Solas.

I definitely see the parallel, I just think  there are some very important distinctions, namely that Solas' motivation isn't in restoring lost glory or domination, but in restoring something that was once an essential part of the world itself and elves especially, something he robbed them of in the first place.  He's motivated by a sense of responsibility for the consequences of his own actions.  He may paint himself in a sympathetic light, but I have no doubt his inner conflict is genuine.  The problem is that that the world he is in has no conception of what he wants to restore or even wants it, so he's plagued by doubt.  Corypheus may be horrified by what Tevinter has been reduced to, but he's not trying to correct a mistake and his goal is to install himself as a divine ruler.  Solas doesn't desire anything for himself.

 

Not that I approve of his goals.

 

I get the parallel, that much is obviously intended, but I just don't see their motivations the same way.

[Qun00]

That's only because the writers at Bioware deliberately handed Warden Commander Clarel the idiot ball (to try to provoke the players into hating the Grey Wardens).

Yup.

[Vorathrad]

I definitely see the parallel, I just think  there are some very important distinctions, namely that Solas' motivation isn't in restoring lost glory or domination, but in restoring something that was once an essential part of the world itself and elves especially, something he robbed them of in the first place.  He's motivated by a sense of responsibility for the consequences of his own actions.  He may paint himself in a sympathetic light, but I have no doubt his inner conflict is genuine.  The problem is that that the world he is in has no conception of what he wants to restore or even wants it, so he's plagued by doubt.  Corypheus may be horrified by what Tevinter has been reduced to, but he's not trying to correct a mistake and his goal is to install himself as a divine ruler.  Solas doesn't desire anything for himself.
 
Not that I approve of his goals.
 
I get the parallel, that much is obviously intended, but I just don't see their motivations the same way.

Of course there are some differences, I never meant to imply they are exactly the same, just that I agree with Former Fiend that they are much more similar than Solas himself would probably admit.

There is an intent to restore former elven glory (because of Sera that phrase always sounds bad...) in addition to saving the remaining elves. During the Treapasser conversation he reminds you of the state of the library. He wants to restore or at least bring back a world where such marvels are possible, instead of the downgraded and dull version he sees now. I don't doubt that this stems from his guilt and responsibility for what he did, but from his words I also get the impression that in addition to it he thinks that his people and their world were vastly superior to the present one.

Corypheus wants to become a god so people don't kneel and pray before nothing, in his own words. In his own twisted logic he is also trying to give people a better world. With him ruling at the top, but he has to be driven by ambition so we see him as unmistakably villain (otherwise the entire purpose of the Inquisition doesn't make sense) If Solas showed any intention of gaining power for himself the grey morality they intended would be much blacker.

Anyway, I think we mainly agree :-)

Re: the Grey Wardens, I also think they were handed the idiot ball and I hate it. Suddenly everyone always saw so clear that they were idiots when we were always gushing about them back in DA:O and nobody doubted they were heroes who did everything it took to stop the Blight. Now suddenly they're the derpiest derp to derp in Thedas. And we weren't even told a good story to justify it.

I also fear they are going down the "You see? Solas was right all along!" road and I don't like it at all. I'd rather see Solas being wrong about the Wardens than the Wardens confirmed as ignorant fools. I'd also like to see that the Evanuris were not so bad as Solas painted and that maybe he went a bit too far to punish them out of pure hatred for what they did to Mythal. But I don't think that will be the case.

[Former_Fiend]

The Blizzard plot line you're referring to, is the Wrath of the Lich king ending? 

 

That would be the main one, yes.

 

Text - especially text with a profanity filter - cannot properly convey the sheer disdain and contempt I have for that, and seeing Bioware taking the same - or a disturbingly similar - route triggers an ungodly, seething rage.

[kimgoold]

Off topic alittle, is the Blight a impurity in the stone? (Titan) in DAO you go to the deep roads and in the city of the dead you have the option to kill the Gangue ??? (can't remember the name) an impurity the legion of the dead killed at a shrine. No idea how it related at the time but now does it tie into the whole Mythal Evanuris killing a Titan, disrupting dwarven hive mind at that time and the impurities being given a physical form by the stone i.e. darkspawn?

[Ariella]

No. The Wardens always have gripped the idiot ball, like I said. Clarel is actually impressively competent compared to Duncan and Riordan, both of whose plans are not only stupid, but basically can't succeed. Her plot is only stupid compared with regular plans. Compared to Grey Warden plans, she's probably their most cunning commander in millenia.

To be fair to Duncan, he was balancing a bunch of political stupidity at the time, and I think there was some feeling for Maric in staying with Cailan as well.

Of course, Ostagar was an idiot fest all around. Cailan and Loghain get their share too. The whole thing was a clusterbomb waiting to happen.

[In Exile]

To be fair to Duncan, he was balancing a bunch of political stupidity at the time, and I think there was some feeling for Maric in staying with Cailan as well.

Of course, Ostagar was an idiot fest all around. Cailan and Loghain get their share too. The whole thing was a clusterbomb waiting to happen.

 

But it doesn't matter. The whole point of the Warden's is to pick the greater good. There's nothing more valuable than their own lives in a blight. Ferelden becoming an uninhabitable crater like most of the Anderfels is still the preferable option to the entirety of Thedas being overrun by the blight. Sacrificing a substantial portion of the most essential force in the realm, as far as Duncan knows, when it comes to stopping the blight is rank insanity. 

[IanPolaris]

But it doesn't matter. The whole point of the Warden's is to pick the greater good. There's nothing more valuable than their own lives in a blight. Ferelden becoming an uninhabitable crater like most of the Anderfels is still the preferable option to the entirety of Thedas being overrun by the blight. Sacrificing a substantial portion of the most essential force in the realm, as far as Duncan knows, when it comes to stopping the blight is rank insanity. 

Au Contraire.  It does matter.  Remember that the Wardens had been exiled from Fereldan for most of the last three centuries only having that reversed under King Marric.  For Duncan to go against King Cailan as you suggest would have been politicaly stupid for all the Wardens everywhere in Thedas and it would have severe repercussions.  So Duncan tried to make the best of a very bad situation while urging Cailan to do the smart thing.

 

Ostagar was a clusterfest all around, but Duncan deserves very little (if any) of the blame for that.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Except if you do Wicked Hearts first (and you easily can), then the Grand Duchess announces in open court in front of the Maker and Everyone that she serves CORYPHEUS, the Elder One.

 

Um, CLUE FILE!

 

The point is that all the Wardens in Fereldan and Orlais all suddenly start getting the calling all at once....and no one smells a rat?  REALLY?!?  And they listen to the first Tevinter Blood-Mage of dubious reputation who gives them an easy way out that sounds too good to be true.  REALLY????

 

No, it's quite plain at least to me that Bioware handed the Grey Wardens and Warden-Commander Clarel in particular the idiot ball in order to emotionally manipulate us into disliking the Wardens.  Bioware didn't just do that with the Wardens either but with the Mage Rebels (esp Fiona) and the Dalish Elves (three mage rule) as well.

 

Indeed, and that's what makes this entire plotline so hard to swallow: it feels utterly arbitrary. In theory, having the Wardens as antagonists might work (though I definitely have to stress the "might"), Gaider did a decent job showing the Order's darker side in The Calling novel, after all. But here? The Wardens are bad because the writers say they're bad, because they have a pathological need to tear down great concepts and characters for the sake of short-term drama, and the only way the game's plot works is that if everyone who's not in the Inquisition suddenly becomes stupid and/or evil at the drop of a hat.

 

Not killing them insures the blights continue. 

 

Very rarely in life do we get the benefit of acting with complete certainty. There were scientists on the Manhatten Project who feared that the explosion caused by the atom bomb would ignite the atmosphere in a chain reaction that would kill all life on the planet. 

 

Personally I'm more inclined to root for the side that takes a chance and acts instead of reacts. Killing the old gods may have dire consequences, but when you know the consequences of inaction, then it's worth taking the risk.

 

Exactly. Solas (and too much of the fanbase) are demanding perfect solutions in an imperfect world. And what are the Wardens supposed to do then, not fight the darkspawn? Just let the Archdemons run rampant, killing everything? The Wardens have saved the world a full five times, while Solas is the God of Colossal $@*^-ups who can barely drink a glass of water without drowning. You'll have to forgive me if I side with the professionals on this one.

 

Two men from the ancient past, vilified in myth, awaken into a world where their respective societies are decayed husks of their former glory largely due to their own actions. They resolve to correct that mistake by piercing/tearing down the veil and using the power gained to return their homelands to power, at the cost of literally everyone else in the world. 

 

They're more alike than you give them credit for. Corypheus literally wants to become a god and Solas detests those who aspire to the title, but he still has a messiah complex all his own, even if he doesn't use the word. Corypheus may be stronger in his conviction than Solas, but if anything that would only heighten the resentment Solas has for him.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between the two is that Solas is apparently a good kisser. If he wasn't, I doubt this whole Draco in Leather Pants thing would be happening with him.

 

Oh, no, I have a pretty good idea of where Bioware's going with this and it enrages me to no end. 

 

They think they're being clever with the "the supposed big bad turns out to really be something beneficial/necessary, and/or turns out to have been a victim/pawn the entire time" routine. That was a stupid plotline when Blizzard used it seven years ago and it's a stupid plotline today, and it's going to be a stupid plotline when it finally comes to fruition in whatever installment of Dragon Age they pull the trigger on it in. 

 

I have no patience or respect for this plot development. It isn't clever, it isn't intriguing, it doesn't make the setting deeper or more interesting. It's an overused twist, and what's worse is that Bioware is using to condemn proaction as opposed to reaction, and, on a personal level, they're using it as a sledgehammer on my favorite aspect of the setting, the Wardens. 

 

Agreed. It didn't make any sense in WoW, why would it be any better here? And to be honest, part of the problem with deconstructions is you threaten to undermine what made a property successful in the first place. There's enough genuine drama and mystery to be had in Dragon Age without completely rewriting the rules of the setting like that.

 

Au Contraire.  It does matter.  Remember that the Wardens had been exiled from Fereldan for most of the last three centuries only having that reversed under King Marric.  For Duncan to go against King Cailan as you suggest would have been politicaly stupid for all the Wardens everywhere in Thedas and it would have severe repercussions.  So Duncan tried to make the best of a very bad situation while urging Cailan to do the smart thing.

 

Ostagar was a clusterfest all around, but Duncan deserves very little (if any) of the blame for that.

 

Ahh, but you forget, the key to solving any problem is blaming the victim! The sooner you realize that the fault lies with those who suffered it, and not the actual villains who brought it about, the better.

 

In all seriousness, though, Duncan did his best with what he had, and even the best commanders can expect losses, setbacks and outright defeats. Duncan didn't kill the King, and he didn't abandon his comrades mid-battle to start up a paranoid, xenophobic dictatorship, so he's not to blame here.

[Il Divo]

Au Contraire.  It does matter.  Remember that the Wardens had been exiled from Fereldan for most of the last three centuries only having that reversed under King Marric.  For Duncan to go against King Cailan as you suggest would have been politicaly stupid for all the Wardens everywhere in Thedas and it would have severe repercussions.  So Duncan tried to make the best of a very bad situation while urging Cailan to do the smart thing.

 

Ostagar was a clusterfest all around, but Duncan deserves very little (if any) of the blame for that.

 

It's politically stupid for the Wardens to have kept the Joining a secret in the first place, given that it's the only way to create a Warden capable of ending a blight.

 

From a military stand-point, it's also pretty bad form to put your key resource in the vanguard of the main assault, without any effective means of taking down their enemy. That's not "making the best of a bad situation". That's the definition of stupidity.

[IanPolaris]

It's politically stupid for the Wardens to have kept the Joining a secret in the first place, given that it's the only way to create a Warden capable of ending a blight.

 

From a military stand-point, it's also pretty bad form to put your key resource in the vanguard of the main assault, without any effective means of taking down their enemy. That's not "making the best of a bad situation". That's the definition of stupidity.

 

No it's not.  The reason is that the implication is that each and every Warden is nothing more than a high-functioning ghoul.  Even worse someone (read Tevinter) might get the bright idea of trying to "make their own wardens".  I'll admit it's a bit contrived, and I'll even admit that I find it highly unlikely this secret would keep for as long as it has, but there is good reason for the secret.

 

As for the military aspect, Duncan TRIED to get Cailan to do the smart thing.  Putting the Grey Wardens in the Vanguard wasn't Duncan's idea.  It was King Cailan's.

[Il Divo]

No it's not.  The reason is that the implication is that each and every Warden is nothing more than a high-functioning ghoul.  Even worse someone (read Tevinter) might get the bright idea of trying to "make their own wardens".  I'll admit it's a bit contrived, and I'll even admit that I find it highly unlikely this secret would keep for as long as it has, but there is good reason for the secret.

 

 

And they can think whatever they want. But here's the reality of their situation since the time of the very first Blight: only Wardens can kill the Archdemon, ergo only Wardens can end the Blight. The kings and politicians can play around with whatever prejudice they like, think whatever they like, but as long as that fact remains true, they need Wardens, period. Which gives a very clear motive why they need to be supported, if the Wardens made that reality plain and clear.

 

That sort of approach is exactly what allows people like Teryn Loghain to think that he can contain a blight with military might, which wouldn't be happening if the Wardens did their job and let everyone know of the situation. Hell, if it wasn't for Riordan, Alistair and the Player character could have fallen into that exact same trap, given that they're the only two Wardens in the area.

 

 

 

As for the military aspect, Duncan TRIED to get Cailan to do the smart thing.  Putting the Grey Wardens in the Vanguard wasn't Duncan's idea.  It was King Cailan's.

 

 

As I said above, that's the point where you tell Cailin to buzz off. Duncan is fully aware that this is a Blight, which takes precedence over every other priority, including rebuilding a Ferelden outpost. If Cailin cannot be made to see reason, then you leave. Putting your Wardens in the Vanguard of the assault does not put them in a position to kill the Archdemon, it does not help rebuild the Order in Ferelden. Quite literally, all it does is place your most important resource in a position where it's most likely to be wasted and unable to fulfill its most important and singular function: killing the Archdemon.
 

[IanPolaris]

My response in bold:

 

 

 

And they can think whatever they want. But here's the reality of their situation since the time of the very first Blight: only Wardens can kill the Archdemon, ergo only Wardens can end the Blight. The kings and politicians can play around with whatever prejudice they like, think whatever they like, but as long as that fact remains true, they need Wardens, period. Which gives a very clear motive why they need to be supported, if the Wardens made that reality plain and clear.

 

This is already known and has been from the start, i.e. Wardens and only Wardens can defeat the Arch-Demon.  We also know that the first Arch-Demon was killed multiple times to no avail until the Wardens did so, so this FACT is already known.

 

That sort of approach is exactly what allows people like Teryn Loghain to think that he can contain a blight with military might, which wouldn't be happening if the Wardens did their job and let everyone know of the situation. Hell, if it wasn't for Riordan, Alistair and the Player character could have fallen into that exact same trap, given that they're the only two Wardens in the area.

 

Loghain was an idiot.  Full stop.

 

As I said above, that's the point where you tell Cailin to buzz off. Duncan is fully aware that this is a Blight, which takes precedence over every other priority, including rebuilding a Ferelden outpost. If Cailin cannot be made to see reason, then you leave. Putting your Wardens in the Vanguard of the assault does not put them in a position to kill the Archdemon, it does not help rebuild the Order in Ferelden. Quite literally, all it does is place your most important resource in a position where it's most likely to be wasted and unable to fulfill its most important and singular function: killing the Archdemon.
 

Now let's talk about what Duncan could REALISTICALLY do.  If Duncan tells Cailan to buzz off, then Duncan jeapordizes the status of the Wardens in all parts of Thedas not just Fereldan.  This is a non-starter.

[Il Divo]

This is already known and has been from the start, i.e., Wardens and only Wardens can defeat the Arch-demon. We also know that the first Arch-demon was killed multiple times to no avail until the Wardens did, so this fact is already known.

 

 

Context? I recall Riordan being the one to explain why the Wardens have to kill the Archdemon.

 

Now if this is true, it also makes Loghain and Duncan look even worse, given that they are all aware of how critical this resource is and in Duncan's case, failing to leverage it properly.
 

 

Now let's talk about what Duncan could REALISTICALLY do. If Duncan tells Cailan to buzz off, then Duncan jeopardizes the status of the Wardens in all parts of Thedas not just Ferelden. This is a non-starter.

 

 

What does "jeopardize the status of Wardens" even mean in this context? The Wardens are by definition outside the influence of any kingdom, regardless of their efforts to keep everyone on their side.

 

What kingdom is going to look at Cailan's stupidity at placing their limited resource of Grey Wardens on the front lines and say to themselves "damn, those Wardens should have let themselves die in the vanguard, we should just kick them out", particularly if what you say above is true and the Wardens are known by everyone to be the only means to contain the Blight? Blights are essentially the one point where the Wardens do essentially have every political organization around them by the balls, since they're the only ones who can actually end them.

[IanPolaris]

Context? I recall Riordan being the one to explain why the Wardens have to kill the Archdemon.

 

Now if this is true, it also makes Loghain and Duncan look even worse, given that they are all aware of how critical this resource is.

 

We are told explicitly during DAI that the historical records tell of Dumat being killed multiple times and coming back before the Grey Wardens were able to kill him for good.  The known history doesn't tell WHY this is so (a point you persistently miss), but that it IS so.  I agree that makes Loghain look like an idiot, but not Duncan (it does make Cailan look like an idiot though).  What Riordan had to explain was WHY only a Warden could kill an Arch-Demon for good, not the fact that only a Warden could do so.
 

 

What does "jeopardize the status of Wardens" even mean in this context? The Wardens are by definition outside the influence of any kingdom, regardless of their efforts to keep everyone on their side.

 

What kingdom is going to look at Cailan's stupidity at placing their limited resource of Grey Wardens on the front lines and say to themselves "damn, those Wardens should have let themselves die in the vanguard, we should just kick them out", particularly if what you say above is true and the Wardens are known by everyone to be the only means to contain the Blight? Blights are essentially the one point where the Wardens do essentially have every political organization around them by the balls, since they're the only ones who can actually end

them.

 

Duncan had no choice short of outright insubordination.  If the Grey Wardens ARE insubordinate to a threat that most don't even think is a blight, then that would confirm the notion they couldn't be trusted anywhere.    Remember that the Wardens had been exiled from Fereldan until very recently.

[Il Divo]

 

Duncan had no choice short of outright insubordination. If the Grey Wardens ARE insubordinate to a threat that most don't even think is a blight, then that would confirm the notion that they couldn't be trusted anywhere. Remember that the Wardens had been exiled from Ferelden until very recently.

 

 

Outright insubordination against whom? Insubordination against Ferelden? Again, why does it matter what the Feredeldens think? They're already exiled, as it is. Duncan knows this is a blight. Rebuilding the Grey Warden Order in Ferelden is secondary priority to killing Archdemons, always. If they're placed in a context where those two goals are in conflict, then good-bye Ferelden. It'll be hit by Blight and the Wardens can come in after.

 

As always, political alliances are nice, but at the end of the day, the Grey Wardens are not themselves subordinate to any one nation. Unless Cailan's counter is going to be something insane like slaughtering all the Grey Wardens for leaving Ferelden, there's nothing he can do to stop them.

 

The Wardens want to return to Ferelden, but as above that goal is secondary relative to kill the Arch-demons, which they cannot do when placed on the front lines of general combat against minor darkspawn.