91 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Outright insubordination against whom? Insubordination against Ferelden? Again, why does it matter what the Feredeldens think? They're already exiled, as it is. Duncan knows this is a blight. Rebuilding the Grey Warden Order in Ferelden is secondary priority to killing Archdemons, always. If they're placed in a context where those two goals are in conflict, then good-bye Ferelden. It'll be hit by Blight and the Wardens can come in after.

 

It matters what the REST of the crowned heads of Thedas think.  If the Wardens think they can get away with les Majesty in Fereldan, then it implies they think they think they can get away with that anywhere, and that won't go down well in the rest of Thedas (esp in the Free Marches).

 

As always, political alliances are nice, but at the end of the day, the Grey Wardens are not themselves subordinate to any one nation. Unless Cailan's counter is going to be something insane like slaughtering all the Grey Wardens for leaving Ferelden, there's nothing he can do to stop them.

 

You absolutely NEED political alliances in order to have enough troops at one place to carve a path for the Wardens to slay the Arch-Demon.

 

The Wardens want to return to Ferelden, but as above that goal is secondary relative to kill the Arch-demons, which they cannot do when placed on the front lines of general combat against minor darkspawn.

 

If the Wardens are insubordinate to Cailan in Fereldan, they jeapordize their position in ALL of Thedas not just Fereldan.

[Dai Grepher]

I think Solas is just misinformed in most cases. On philosophical issues I think Solas is generally correct. But the thing is that he's willing to ignore his own good advice if it means achieving his goals. But he also thinks his goals will create a better situation than the world that exists now. He is a long-living being. He thinks in terms of millennia. He sees the world he wants to make as being better in the long run than the world that exists currently. So while hundreds of millions will die (he assumes), after that point then everything will be better for the endless millions after that (he also assumes).

 

And of course he is a hypocrite. He has one line that says something along the lines of, "...and men will always find reasons why their cause warrants exception (to the rules)." Well, here he is finding reasons why his cause warrants exception to his own rules and standards.

[Il Divo]

It matters what the REST of the crowned heads of Thedas think.  If the Wardens think they can get away with les Majesty in Fereldan, then it implies they think they think they can get away with that anywhere, and that won't go down well in the rest of Thedas (esp in the Free Marches).

 

 

The rest of the crowned heads of Thedas aren't looking to die to a Blight. Their goal is survival, which again only happens via Grey Wardens. And it doesn't happen by putting Warden lives on the front lines where they can't reach the Arch-demon.

 

It's no different than any other instance of disagreements during negotiations. Unless the conclusion here is that any time the Wardens don't take orders from monarchs = insubordination? But that would be a pretty radical conclusion, given that the very concept of the Wardens is that they are a distinctly apolitical force. Sure, they don't want to tread on too many toes, but they're also not part of each respective nation's standing army for a pretty good reason. Technically speaking, it's the other way around, given that the right of conscription gives the Wardens power over any/every respective nation, even if they limit its usage.  

 

In short: if the Wardens are that afraid of political counter-attacks that they can't even exert autonomy over their own independent forces to prevent suicidal plans, there's no hope for them as an institution, to the point where individual nations would simply conscript the Grey Wardens into their standing armies.

 

You absolutely NEED political alliances in order to have enough troops at one place to carve a path for the Wardens to slay the Arch-Demon.

 

 

Hence why the Wardens can solve this simply by going to a country not ruled by idiots, aka Cailan. Resources are useful, agreed. Cailan's support in the form of an army has the potential to be a great resource. If it's being used effectively, which in this case it isn't.

 

In Cailan's case, as soon as his entrance, we see that he's hoping to be facing down an Arch-demon/Blight and in that context, is still looking to put Grey Wardens on the front lines, where they can't reach the Arch-demon. In other words, Ferelden's army is pretty useless to us.   
 

 

If the Wardens are insubordinate to Cailan in Fereldan, they jeapordize their position in ALL of Thedas not just Fereldan.

 

 

Once more: Wardens are not subordinate to Cailan in any sense of the word. Political alliances and subordination are not equivalent. The Grey Wardens are a distinctly separate entity for a reason.

 

What you are suggesting goes far beyond a political alliance, to the point where it jeopardizes the primary purpose of the Grey Wardens, which is killing Arch-demons to end Blights. If the political alliance does not support that goal, then it has no purpose. So if Ferelden can't achieve that, the goal is to work with the nations that will.
 

[IanPolaris]

Instead of responding point by point, let me respond to the entire gist:  You are assuming that the Grey Wardens can ignore or even contradict the ruling monarch of a land with no consequences.

 

That is utterly false.  Insubordination even with an nominally independent military force is a real thing:  The French call it les majesty.  It's a real thing and a real insult.  If Duncan tells Cailan to buzz off or (worse) takes control of the battlefield from Cailan, he not only confirms and emboldens anti-Warden idiots (like Loghain), but every other crowned head in Thedas takes note....and stops cooperating with the Wardens, especially since it's not clear (save for the Wardens) that this was a blight at all.

 

The Grey Wardens simply CAN'T act with the impunity that some think....at least not until it's clear that there is a bona-fide blight.

[Dai Grepher]

I think you guys are overthinking Ostagar. Of course the Grey Wardens are independent, but Duncan was Warden-Commander. He trusted in Loghain's plan, and that's because he thought Loghain's plan was sound and that Loghain himself was honorable and competent.

 

It was never the plan to have the Grey Wardens on the front line for very long. Having all but two Wardens on the front with Cailan was to lure the Darkspawn in to overextend their position. That is when Loghain's forces would flank the Darkspawn, thus taking the load off of the Wardens and Cailan. Loghain's forces would then battle the Darkspawn back until the Archdemon shows up or until the Darkspawn retreat, whichever comes first.

 

If that had been the real plan, then it would have been a decent one. The Wardens would not have done most of the fighting in that case, and they would have had time to rest before taking on the Archdemon.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Reading through the thread and I wondered if the ancient elves had an 'inspiration' in their experiments with magic. After all, they were able to wield magic to different purposes unlike the stunted, stagnated, myopic interpretations (Tewinter), fearful restrictions imposed by humans and the qunari on their own mages. And one of this experiments involved the Titan, it went wrong and it became blighted. The first darkspawn would have been the Titan's own dwarves.

[Il Divo]

Instead of responding point by point, let me respond to the entire gist:  You are assuming that the Grey Wardens can ignore or even contradict the ruling monarch of a land with no consequences.

 

 

Without consequence? No. But every action has a consequence, including sticking around.

 

The problem here being that the action you are advocating for is in direct conflict with the single most important role of the Grey Wardens: stopping the Blight.

 

In other words, there's a difference between saying "we should be careful in how we interact with other countries" and saying "we should simply fall over and do exactly what other countries want, all the time". Effective leadership involves knowing when to submit and when to tell others to buzz off. In this instance, advocacy for Duncan staying at Ostagar demonstrates the latter, given that their most important function is now in action, regardless of whether overarching Thedas is yet aware, though the increasing Darkspawn hordes will inevitably clue them in.

 

 

That is utterly false.  Insubordination even with an nominally independent military force is a real thing:  The French call it les majesty.  It's a real thing and a real insult.  If Duncan tells Cailan to buzz off or (worse) takes control of the battlefield from Cailan, he not only confirms and emboldens anti-Warden idiots (like Loghain), but every other crowned head in Thedas takes note....and stops cooperating with the Wardens, especially since it's not clear (save for the Wardens) that this was a blight at all.

 

 

Well, a quick google search shows that les majesty refers more to insults/humiliation. Not that it matters either way, official terminology or not, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting offended from perceived slights. It just doesn't really matter because unless Cailin goes full insane and starts murdering Wardens (which I doubt would happen), worst case scenario the Wardens are re-exiled. So as before, unless being in someone else's territory means "you are by law to do exactly what I tell you at all times", we're in the same scenario as before.

 

What you're suggesting as every crown in Thedas turning their heads against the Wardens strikes me as a more contrived backlash on a military engagement in which the Wardens would/should be the definitive authority, given that their entire existence revolves around executing dark-spawn.

 

As in my last post, this point is even more pronounced because Cailin self-admits that he expects/hopes this is a Blight, which serves as a confirmation that at the least, the Wardens were positioned to do absolutely nothing to stop what Ferelden's monarch hoped to be a Blight. So unless every monarch is going to be offended that the Wardens want to actually be able to stop the Blight, they'll do absolutely nothing against them. Not to mention, the right of conscription giving the Wardens, at the least, some sense of nominal authority over any one country when it comes to dealing with the darkspawn.

 

 

The Grey Wardens simply CAN'T act with the impunity that some think....at least not until it's clear that there is a bona-fide blight.

 

 

As above, there is a balance between acting with impunity and listening to every last order coming from other nations, which directly contradicts their function. The Wardens being aware that there is a blight and that they will be able to do virtually nothing from a vanguard position indicates that there is nothing to be gained from staying in Ferelden, with Cailin unwilling to defer to their knowledge/expertise.

[Il Divo]

I think you guys are overthinking Ostagar. Of course the Grey Wardens are independent, but Duncan was Warden-Commander. He trusted in Loghain's plan, and that's because he thought Loghain's plan was sound and that Loghain himself was honorable and competent.

 

It was never the plan to have the Grey Wardens on the front line for very long. Having all but two Wardens on the front with Cailan was to lure the Darkspawn in to overextend their position. That is when Loghain's forces would flank the Darkspawn, thus taking the load off of the Wardens and Cailan. Loghain's forces would then battle the Darkspawn back until the Archdemon shows up or until the Darkspawn retreat, whichever comes first.

 

If that had been the real plan, then it would have been a decent one. The Wardens would not have done most of the fighting in that case, and they would have had time to rest before taking on the Archdemon.

 

While this does sound better, far as I'm aware, this is all speculation, beyond our knowing the Wardens being part of the vanguard assault. Without that, we're still left in the scenario of using our most important resource as bait for the battle.

[Dai Grepher]

While this does sound better, far as I'm aware, this is all speculation, beyond our knowing the Wardens being part of the vanguard assault. Without that, we're still left in the scenario of using our most important resource as bait for the battle.

 

Well, Cailan and Loghain went over the plan at the war table, so yes that was the plan. But I agree that some Wardens should have been part of Loghain's regiment for logic's sake. But again, this all goes back to trust. Duncan trusted Loghain. That's all there was to it. I agree that the Wardens are independent, and disagreeing with Loghain's plan probably would not have had any negative consequences for them diplomatically. The Wardens don't have to do what others tell them, but they still have to get along somewhat so that the nobility won't turn on them.

 

Adamant is a good example of this. They don't have to follow orders, but if the Inquisitor exiles them then they will have little choice. In that case it was either leave or get killed or arrested.

[Toasted Llama]

But I agree that some Wardens should have been part of Loghain's regiment for logic's sake.

 

Try convincing Loghain of that

[Dai Grepher]

Hey Loghain, we're going to have five Wardens standing with you to watch for the beacon.

[Toasted Llama]

Hey Loghain, we're going to have five Wardens standing with you to watch for the beacon.

 

Considering he was already flipping his sh!t over just 2 Wardens walking around in Ferelden after surviving the events of Ostagar, imagine what 5 Wardens would do in close proximity to him!

[Dai Grepher]

He would have been so stressed by it that he actually would have led the charge upon seeing the beacon lit. Ironically.

[Jester]

He would have been so stressed by it that he actually would have led the charge upon seeing the beacon lit. Ironically.

And then the rest of Ferelden Army would die too...

Loghain's decision to withdraw was the correct one. The battle was lost anyway. 

 

As to Solas being so strongly against the Wardens, I'm quite convinced it was because of their idea that killing the Old Gods would end the Blights. 

 

He may either know something we doesn't (which is very likely) - like what exactly is the connection of Darkspawn to the Old Gods, or he just uses simple reasoning, and realizes, that Darkspawn not occupied by searching for another Archdemon would cause a neverending Blight, when stripped of their compulsion. 

 

This is clearly the thing that disresses him mostly. 

 

Perhaps he is afraid, that a blighted world would be unsalvageable, even when he drops the Veil (and he is most likely correct). 

[Madfox11]

There are centuries between a Blight. Humans being human, the majority will forget what a Blight means, especially power hungry manipulative people like Loghain and Howe. You only have to look at the Templars in RL to realize how rulers eventually look at powerful independent para-military organizations with no clearly visible purpose: you destroy them for their resources.

 

As for the world knowing their secret, would it matter? There is the risk that people start treating them as somebody who can turn on them at any moment (like regular ghouls), but those people still have to belief you that you can sense darkspawn and arch-fiends. Why would the real reason be more believable than 'it is Warden magic' which they basically use at the moment?

 

Finally, I find it odd to believe that Loghains retreat prevented a complete destruction. That is just speculation based on Loghain saying so. I am sure he was convinced of it, but he also severely underestimated the threat of the Blight, fearing the Wardens and Orlais to such an extend that it clouded his judgment. In fact, if the opposition was really that strong, his army would never have been able to retreat safely. In other words, I don't find him a reliable source. I am sure that Duncan believed they had a chance if Loghain had stuck to the plan or otherwise he would have kept more Wardens away from the thick of the fighting.

 

Now, I am not particular impressed by the Wardens in DAI, although Cory can clearly directly control them which makes creating a wild panic a lot easier, but their actions in DAO seem to be within reason.

[In Exile]

Well, Cailan and Loghain went over the plan at the war table, so yes that was the plan. But I agree that some Wardens should have been part of Loghain's regiment for logic's sake. But again, this all goes back to trust. Duncan trusted Loghain. That's all there was to it. I agree that the Wardens are independent, and disagreeing with Loghain's plan probably would not have had any negative consequences for them diplomatically. The Wardens don't have to do what others tell them, but they still have to get along somewhat so that the nobility won't turn on them.

 

Adamant is a good example of this. They don't have to follow orders, but if the Inquisitor exiles them then they will have little choice. In that case it was either leave or get killed or arrested.

 

The plan is sheer insanity. It only works if you have a serious numerical advantage and the other side lacks an immortal dive bomber. But - and this is being as charitable as possible - Loghain has no idea if he has numerical superiority (all his scouts were slaughtered, with none reporting back). And the GWs know, for a 100% immutable fact, that the darkspawn have an immortal dive bomber.

 

The whole plan is stupid. The GWs in the Vanguard is the stupid cherry on top of the moron cake, but what Loghain wants to do isn't much better. 

 

The GWs are about self-sacrifice to stop a blight. That includes butting heads with idiot monarchs whose entire plan will doom a nation. 

[In Exile]

I think you guys are overthinking Ostagar. Of course the Grey Wardens are independent, but Duncan was Warden-Commander. He trusted in Loghain's plan, and that's because he thought Loghain's plan was sound and that Loghain himself was honorable and competent.

 

It was never the plan to have the Grey Wardens on the front line for very long. Having all but two Wardens on the front with Cailan was to lure the Darkspawn in to overextend their position. That is when Loghain's forces would flank the Darkspawn, thus taking the load off of the Wardens and Cailan. Loghain's forces would then battle the Darkspawn back until the Archdemon shows up or until the Darkspawn retreat, whichever comes first.

 

If that had been the real plan, then it would have been a decent one. The Wardens would not have done most of the fighting in that case, and they would have had time to rest before taking on the Archdemon.

 

That's not true. The real plan was having the entire GWs in the Vanguard. We don't know where Loghain wanted to stash the GWs. But Cailain ordered them in the Vanguard with him. And at that point, "Go fist yourself" is the only reply that Duncan should be considering.