127 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

For me they are overrated ,needlessly deemed necessary and pose threat to world safety what amusingly trumps entire point of their existence.

 

They are overrated because like stories about their heroism stories about their combat capabilities are pretty much fiction, grey wardens had many opportunities to prove their combat abilities but yet shown to die very quickly even to the enemy they were created to fight with.

 

They needlessly deemed necessary because order in itself isn't necessary all you need is an indvidual or group of individuals to go through joining and that pretty much serves only to kill archdemon.Destroy grey warden order and you still can stop blight and fight darkspawn.

 

They are threat to world safety because lack of restrains combined with their fanaticism and use of magic shown to be more than once threat for country or even entire world.  

 

So on mine grey wardens should be torn apart and replaced by more stable and supervised force that would combat darkspawn. 

   

[Dabrikishaw]

Still a heroic and likable organization to me. Nothing's changed that.

[Ashagar]

That's odd considering that if any one organization is primarily at fault for not only the mage rebellion but the horrid mistreatment of mages for almost a thousand years AND had the market cornered on hypocrisy, it's the Seekers of Truth....and every last member of that organization (including Cassandra) is an abomination.

 

To be a abomination would imply that they are possessed but both the lore and in game only states that they were touched by a spirit of faith,(one of the most powerful and rare spirits) which while breaking their tranquility does not make them a abomination as the spirit is not trying to take over their body like demons do or indeed even inhabiting their body like a certain should be dead mage. As far as all the lore out and in game I have seen the Seekers don't even become tranquil the same way mages do for that matter, it sounds more akin to burning emotionally themselves out or how bhikkhu would mummify themselves then anything else.

[IanPolaris]

To be a abomination would imply that they are possessed but both the lore and in game only states that they were touched by a spirit of faith,(one of the most powerful and rare spirits) which while breaking their tranquility does not make them a abomination as the spirit is not trying to take over their body like demons do or indeed even inhabiting their body like a certain should be dead mage. As far as all the lore out and in game I have seen the Seekers don't even become tranquil the same way mages do for that matter, it sounds more akin to burning emotionally themselves out or how bhikkhu would mummify themselves then anything else.

 

Lord Seeker Lucius IN THE GAME confirms that every last Seeker is an abomination (and it's WHY they can not be possessed btw), and after Cassandra reads the book she doesn't disagree.

 

It's pretty clear and definitely canonical that the Seekers of Truth are abominations.  Every last one.  That and the fact they invented the Rite of Tranquility and sat on the cure for over a thousand years makes them hypocrits of the worst sort.  Even Cassandra admits this if you confront her with it.

[Dai Grepher]

I wonder why more of you can't recognize character assassination when you see it.  Bioware for whatever reason wants you to dislike the Grey Wardens and so they are handing them the idiot ball liberally (see also Dalish Elves and Rebel Mages).

 

I am amazed so many of you are falling for it.

 

What? The Grey Wardens have always sucked. Ever since one conscripted my character against his will while his father lay dying right in front of him. Then the same one murdered Ser Jory. Then Alistair lied to me about various cons to being a Grey Warden. Then Avernus and Sophia.

 

It wasn't until my character became a Warden that the order (by default) started doing good in the world.
 

And the Grey Wardens didn't defeat the Fifth Blight. The Hero did, along with various armies. Alistair can possibly walk away, and Loghain can be the one to make the ultimate sacrifice. And he hated the Wardens.

[Dai Grepher]

Which are greatly outnumbered by the living.

 

Or are they? And how many Grey Wardens died destroying Darkspawn? Compare that to the non-Wardens who died destroying Darkspawn. Sure, only a Grey Warden (actually, one who has mastered the taint) can destroy and archdemon, but how does this person get close enough to an archdemon? Regular folks risking their lives to clear a path through the hoard.

[Dai Grepher]

Lord Seeker Lucius IN THE GAME confirms that every last Seeker is an abomination (and it's WHY they can not be possessed btw), and after Cassandra reads the book she doesn't disagree.

 

It's pretty clear and definitely canonical that the Seekers of Truth are abominations.  Every last one.  That and the fact they invented the Rite of Tranquility and sat on the cure for over a thousand years makes them hypocrits of the worst sort.  Even Cassandra admits this if you confront her with it.

 

That's just Lucius' opinion.

 

Reversing tranquility only requires a spirit or demon "touch" a tranquil's mind. That restores them. That does not mean they are possessed.

 

Cole confirms that a Spirit of Faith was drawn to Cassandra, and he suggests one of two possibilities. Either the spirit was drawn to Cassandra's show of faith, or the spirit was Cassandra's spirit returning to her body. Either way, she's her.

 

Seekers can't be possessed because they gain strong mental fortitude from their Vigil and possibly other abilities. It isn't because they are already possessed (which was the case with Wynne).
 

[IanPolaris]

That's just Lucius' opinion.

 

Reversing tranquility only requires a spirit or demon "touch" a tranquil's mind. That restores them. That does not mean they are possessed.

 

Cole confirms that a Spirit of Faith was drawn to Cassandra, and he suggests one of two possibilities. Either the spirit was drawn to Cassandra's show of faith, or the spirit was Cassandra's spirit returning to her body. Either way, she's her.

 

Seekers can't be possessed because they gain strong mental fortitude from their Vigil and possibly other abilities. It isn't because they are already possessed (which was the case with Wynne).
 

 

It's not just Lucius' opinion.  The fact remains that no Seeker can be possessed.  There is only one way in the Dragon Age universe you can get such IMMUNITY (not resistance but outright immunity):  If some other spirit is occupying you.

 

Period.  When Cassandra reads the book, she does not disagree.  In any event, the fact that the Seekers are the most responsible for the grief between Mages and Templars, and kept critical information secret for almost a thousand years and especially given their hard line on spirit communication and spirit possession when every damn Seeker does exactly what they say they fear in mages makes them class AAA hypocrits.  You can confront Cassandra with this conclusion and while she Greatly Disapproves, she does not disagree.

 

Edit PS:  You're wrong about possession btw.  The ONLY way you are totally immune (i.e. you can't be possessed even if you want to be) is if you already are.  The lore is clear that possession only happens if the spirit/demon gets permission, but ANYONE (or anything) can hypothetically be possessed no matter how strong its will. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

For me they are overrated ,needlessly deemed necessary and pose threat to world safety what amusingly trumps entire point of their existence.

 

They are overrated because like stories about their heroism stories about their combat capabilities are pretty much fiction, grey wardens had many opportunities to prove their combat abilities but yet shown to die very quickly even to the enemy they were created to fight with.

 

They needlessly deemed necessary because order in itself isn't necessary all you need is an indvidual or group of individuals to go through joining and that pretty much serves only to kill archdemon.Destroy grey warden order and you still can stop blight and fight darkspawn.

 

They are threat to world safety because lack of restrains combined with their fanaticism and use of magic shown to be more than once threat for country or even entire world.  

 

So on mine grey wardens should be torn apart and replaced by more stable and supervised force that would combat darkspawn. 

   

 

Supervised... by who? The nobles who will seek to use them in their wars? The Chantry who will happily turn them in Templars 2.0 if it had its way?

[Greetsme]

I remember from Origins that there was a shortage of Wardens.  Inquisition kills of hundreds of them, there can't be more than two and Halfling left.  Saying that, there can't be many Templars or Mages left either. 

[IanPolaris]

I remember from Origins that there was a shortage of Wardens.  Inquisition kills of hundreds of them, there can't be more than two and Halfling left.  Saying that, there can't be many Templars or Mages left either. 

 

Well remember that in DAO, all of Fereldan's Grey Wardens were gathered in one place and King Cailan had them charge the Darkspawn horde.

 

That was pretty much it for the Grey Wardens in Fereldan....and there weren't that many to begin with since their exile had only been reversed a generation earlier.

[MrObnoxiousUK]

They are possibly the most suicidally incompetent group in modern fiction. All of their ideas are Cerberus-level fail, on they're the thin line between a horde of rape abominations and the extinction of all life. Not only are the Warden's not even portrayed as heroic, they're not even portrayed as being good at the one thing they exist to do: stopping the darkspawn.

For a suicidally incompetent organization they  have a respectable record of 5 Archdemons slain, sounds to me that they achieved their aims.

[nightscrawl]

... where nearly the entire force has been wiped out and even those left don't know how to conduct a joining and what they actually have to do to kill an archdemon. You'd think that at least is something that would be shared with every Warden after they had undergone the joining.

Uhm... no, I wouldn't think that. There are still ranks and such, and -- the fifth Blight was an exceptional circumstance -- some noob Warden doesn't need a blueprint on how to conduct the Joining. It's one thing to be told that you drank some darkspawn blood, mixed with a bit of Archdemon blood, sealed with some magical preparation, but I don't think it's necessary that they know the exact method. Of course, since we actually had to go out and collect the darkspawn blood in DAO, I think that was a strong hint.

 

Besides, even if HoF and Alistair knew how to do it, they had no access to the Archdemon blood. I will assume that the supply Duncan had on hand was lost, and they were unable to access, nor did they know about, the cache in Denerim until Riordan told them about it.

 

Command structure is an important thing for any military organization, and not everyone needs to know everything. However, that is also not the same thing as being generally and deliberately secretive, which the Grey Wardens are.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Supervised... by who? The nobles who will seek to use them in their wars? The Chantry who will happily turn them in Templars 2.0 if it had its way?

By country authorities, even if they would end as tool in war still much better than world being destroyed because lack of oversight. Not rly, i don't see why chantry would turn oragniastion that is specialized to fight darkspawn into organisation that is specialized to fight mages especially they already have one.

 

 

For a suicidally incompetent organization they  have a respectable record of 5 Archdemons slain, sounds to me that they achieved their aims.

You mean 4 because pretty much grey warden order had no involvement in fifth blight, add to that grey wardens were tiny percentage of forces fighting blight, grey wardens sole task is to kill archdemon to what takes 1 individual after joining what fifth blight proves. 

[Dai Grepher]

It's not just Lucius' opinion.  The fact remains that no Seeker can be possessed.  There is only one way in the Dragon Age universe you can get such IMMUNITY (not resistance but outright immunity):  If some other spirit is occupying you.

 

Period.  When Cassandra reads the book, she does not disagree.  In any event, the fact that the Seekers are the most responsible for the grief between Mages and Templars, and kept critical information secret for almost a thousand years and especially given their hard line on spirit communication and spirit possession when every damn Seeker does exactly what they say they fear in mages makes them class AAA hypocrits.  You can confront Cassandra with this conclusion and while she Greatly Disapproves, she does not disagree.

 

Edit PS:  You're wrong about possession btw.  The ONLY way you are totally immune (i.e. you can't be possessed even if you want to be) is if you already are.  The lore is clear that possession only happens if the spirit/demon gets permission, but ANYONE (or anything) can hypothetically be possessed no matter how strong its will. 

 

Yes but you're assuming they can't be possessed because they are already possessed, like Wynne was. Which kind of defeats the whole purpose of saying they can't be possessed. To phrase your stance more accurately you'd have to write that they can't be possessed twice, or again. What in the games states that possession is the only one way to prevent another possession? And isn't there a spirit always occupying you? That being your own?

 

Does Cassandra actually say that she doesn't disagree with Lucius about Seekers being abominations? I don't remember that being said specifically, and I romanced her. I think I'd remember that. The only thing I remember her being really despondent over was the fact that Seekers get that way through tranquility at all. The rest of the Vigil seems to be just a case of a spirit "awakening" the tranquilized initiate, thus restoring their mind and giving them special abilities.

 

I don't see how the Seekers are most responsible for the Mages and Templars. Tranquility had nothing to do with the rebellion. And no one knew about Tranquility being created by the Seekers, or that it could be reversed. It was only feared that this information would be the straw that broke the camel's back. The first rock rolling at the top of a hill.

 

Not disagreeing isn't the same as agreeing. A direct quote from her would be nice.

 

No, possession can happen against one's will. That's how the deformed abominations are created. The humanoid looking abominations had their spirits/demons accepted willingly. I agree that one who is already possessed can't be possessed again, but it's a leap to just assume that this is the one and only way to be immune to possession. There could be some spell or power that prevents possession, just like how Cole's amulet can block binding.

[GoldenGail3]

By country authorities, even if they would end as tool in war still much better than world being destroyed because lack of oversight. Not rly, i don't see why chantry would turn oragniastion that is specialized to fight darkspawn into organisation that is specialized to fight mages especially they already have one.
 
 

You mean 4 because pretty much grey warden order had no involvement in fifth blight, add to that grey wardens were tiny percentage of forces fighting blight, grey wardens sole task is to kill archdemon to what takes 1 individual after joining what fifth blight proves.

THEY HAVE EVERYTHING TO DO WITH DAO!!!!!!!!!!!! THEIR THE ONLY WARDENS LEFT IN FERELDEN WITH ANCTY TREATIES, BECAUSE IF YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED DAO, YOUD FINE THAT THEY WERE KILLED IN OSTAGAR, AND THAT THE ORLAISAN WARDENS WERENT ALLOWED IN! Because Loghan didn't allow them too, they were banished. Gosh, actually play DAO before making these aggorant, brick wall statements that lead to nowhere but mindless debates. You assume that the only two Grey Wardens should've left Ferleden to burn as they went over Loghian's army protecting the borders of Ferelden against Orlais Grey Wardens. So explain to me how they could've left Ferelden at all.

Only two people agianst a protected border. Or maybe they should've turned themself in, which being killed by Darkspawn like Sten was, if he was left in a cage in Origins He was anti Orlais, Wessuapitc a long distance away, sense it's in the Anders. So what should've done? Made you leave Ferelden to its dull fate so that actual GW could handle the situation? Hah! No, your mistaken TKS. They took the joining like any GW in the order, they may have been new, but they were still GW in both title and respect. They were new GW, yes. But they had treaties on them with the GW stamp of approval on It. Yes, they could've been forged, but it was better then everyone dying because someone thought that it was such a good idea to leave them to a such a fate.

[Illegitimus]

Cassandra says "Lucius was right".  She isn't terribly specific about what.  Nor do I know whether people who have been temporarily possessed like the seers or Connor count as abominations.  

[Qis]

One thing come into my mind, Duncan say Circle of Magi who preparing for the Joining, means they should be the 7 Mages in Ostagar who do that, Wynne is one of them. Wynne know about it, atleast the preparation, how to make the stuff, but Wynne says nothing about it...

 

7 Mages i know

i. Wynne

ii. Uldred

iii. The Tranquil fellow if he is considered a Mage, otherwise the one who Alistair meet to give a message

iv. 3 Mages who going into the Fade at Mage compound

v. Grey Warden temporary companion at Tower of Ishal

 

Circle Mages know about the Joining all along...

[TheKomandorShepard]

THEY HAVE EVERYTHING TO DO WITH DAO!!!!!!!!!!!! THEIR THE ONLY WARDENS LEFT IN FERELDEN WITH ANCTY TREATIES, BECAUSE IF YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED DAO, YOUD FINE THAT THEY WERE KILLED IN OSTAGAR, AND THAT THE ORLAISAN WARDENS WERENT ALLOWED IN! Because Loghan didn't allow them too, they were banished. Gosh, actually play DAO before making these aggorant, brick wall statements that lead to nowhere but mindless debates. You assume that the only two Grey Wardens should've left Ferleden to burn as they went over Loghian's army protecting the borders of Ferelden against Orlais Grey Wardens. So explain to me how they could've left Ferelden at all.

Only two people agianst a protected border. Or maybe they should've turned themself in, which being killed by Darkspawn like Sten was, if he was left in a cage in Origins He was anti Orlais, Wessuapitc a long distance away, sense it's in the Anders. So what should've done? Made you leave Ferelden to its dull fate so that actual GW could handle the situation? Hah! No, your mistaken TKS. They took the joining like any GW in the order, they may have been new, but they were still GW in both title and respect. They were new GW, yes. But they had treaties on them with the GW stamp of approval on It. Yes, they could've been forged, but it was better then everyone dying because someone thought that it was such a good idea to leave them to a such a fate.

Oh yeah, do you remember those brave and heroic armies of grey wardens that fought fifth blight and killed archdemon because i don't.

 

Order role in fifth blight was to die killed by darkspawn at the beginning of the blight and that is it.That you present excuse for their lack of contribution in defating fifth blight won't change fact it was still lack of contribution sadly you didn't learn your lesson.And once again 2 individuals on self-commissioned mission that wasn't supported nor approved by order isn't not action of said order that counts more than a thousand members no matter how you kick and scream.Also to repeat, myself using treaties means absolutely nothing in matter involvment of grey warden order in fifth blight as me using police badge for own goals won't make police involved into what i did.

[IanPolaris]

Tranquility had everything to do with the rebellion.  It was Lord Seeker Lambert's brutal (to the point of several murders) insistence of hiding a possible cure for tranquility that provided the trigger that set off the Circle vote for independence.  Not only that but the SEEKERS were responsible for seeing that nut-jobs like Meredith had oversight.

 

Yeah.  That worked out reeeally well......

[IanPolaris]

Cassandra says "Lucius was right".  She isn't terribly specific about what.  Nor do I know whether people who have been temporarily possessed like the seers or Connor count as abominations.  

 

They do under Chantry Law (and by traditional Seeker standards as well).  Remember than an entire Rivanni circle got annulled because that circle permitted Seers and refused to consider them abominations. 

[Gileadan]

In DAO, I thought of them as a grim necessity, needed to make sure there was a way to end a blight for certain. Some aspects of them were heroic, others dark and unsettling. They were those who did what was needed, when it was needed.

Today? Oh look, another once interesting faction that got the idiot ball.

For me personally they represent Thedas all too well - once intriguing and mysterious, I nowadays find it hard to care about them.

[Halfdan The Menace]

The Wardens are boring. Thedas need real warriors not high-class whiners. Templars are better at protecting people, though they shouldn't take order from crazy knight-commanders or they'll get another "Kirkwall crisis".

[Yaroub]

The Wardens are boring. Thedas need real warriors not high-class whiners. Templars are better at protecting people, though they shouldn't take order from crazy knight-commanders or they'll get another "Kirkwall crisis".

 

Apples and oranges. Templars enter the deep roads end up boiled by the taint.

 

And Templars are the biggest failures in Thedas at both their religious duties and keeping mages in check, retards cannot even protect themselves let alone others all they're good at is keep consuming their crack until they end up hallucinating.

[Qun00]

They needlessly deemed necessary because order in itself isn't necessary all you need is an indvidual or group of individuals to go through joining and that pretty much serves only to kill archdemon.Destroy grey warden order and you still can stop blight and fight darkspawn.

So... you're saying the world needs Grey Wardens?

In DAO, I thought of them as a grim necessity, needed to make sure there was a way to end a blight for certain. Some aspects of them were heroic, others dark and unsettling. They were those who did what was needed, when it was needed.
Today? Oh look, another once interesting faction that got the idiot ball.
For me personally they represent Thedas all too well - once intriguing and mysterious, I nowadays find it hard to care about them.

Yes, people usually aren't impressed with the wardens during the period between the last Blight and the next.