127 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

They took the joining like any GW in the order, they may have been new, but they were still GW in both title and respect. They were new GW, yes. But they had treaties on them with the GW stamp of approval on It. Yes, they could've been forged, but it was better then everyone dying because someone thought that it was such a good idea to leave them to a such a fate.

 

I think you put too much stock in the Joining and treaties. My character was conscripted, and never referred to himself as a Grey Warden. He hated the Order and what they really stood for. So he was essentially a Fereldan patriot who had the taint resistance. Also, in my playthrough Alistair quit and Loghain underwent the Joining, and he hated the Order too. So the only Grey Warden I met who was worth a damn was Riordan. He showed how to do the Joining, brought Loghain into the fold, and grounded the archdemon. But the one who raised the army, freed Riordan, and slayed the archdemon, non-Wardens essentially. As for the treaties, the only time you actually need them to advance in the game is to get in to Orzammar. Otherwise, you can convince everyone to help you in exchange for helping them, including whoever rules Orzammar. Also, if the treaties had not gotten us in to Orzammar, I'm sure having Shale in the party would have gained us entry.

[Dai Grepher]

One thing come into my mind, Duncan say Circle of Magi who preparing for the Joining, means they should be the 7 Mages in Ostagar who do that, Wynne is one of them. Wynne know about it, atleast the preparation, how to make the stuff, but Wynne says nothing about it...

 

7 Mages i know

i. Wynne

ii. Uldred

iii. The Tranquil fellow if he is considered a Mage, otherwise the one who Alistair meet to give a message

iv. 3 Mages who going into the Fade at Mage compound

v. Grey Warden temporary companion at Tower of Ishal

 

Circle Mages know about the Joining all along...

 

The Joining requires lyrium and some special preparation. So I think that is where the mages come in. The darkspawn and archdemon blood is likely added later by the Grey Warden conducting the Joining. The way Wynne spoke about the Grey Wardens, it seemed to me that she didn't know about the "bloodmagic" involved.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Oh yeah, do you remember those brave and heroic armies of grey wardens that fought fifth blight and killed archdemon because i don't.

 

Order role in fifth blight was to die killed by darkspawn at the beginning of the blight and that is it.That you present excuse for their lack of contribution in defating fifth blight won't change fact it was still lack of contribution sadly you didn't learn your lesson.And once again 2 individuals on self-commissioned mission that wasn't supported nor approved by order isn't not action of said order that counts more than a thousand members no matter how you kick and scream.Also to repeat, myself using treaties means absolutely nothing in matter involvment of grey warden order in fifth blight as me using police badge for own goals won't make police involved into what i did.

 

I agree, and those are true points. But I do have to give Riordan due credit. But even then, the Hero is the one who released him. And the treaties don't even need to be used except to get in to Orzammar.
 

Also, about the treaties, they are just papers, but the agreements themselves were established by the Grey Wardens, so I think it counts in their favor, even if used by those who don't consider themselves Grey Wardens *cough*Rainier*cough*. But I don't think the treaties are important in Origins. The allies can join your cause for other reasons.

[Dai Grepher]

Tranquility had everything to do with the rebellion.  It was Lord Seeker Lambert's brutal (to the point of several murders) insistence of hiding a possible cure for tranquility that provided the trigger that set off the Circle vote for independence.  Not only that but the SEEKERS were responsible for seeing that nut-jobs like Meredith had oversight.

 

Yeah.  That worked out reeeally well......

 

But tranquility had been around for ages, and no one had that big of a problem with it. Discovering that it could be reversed would make no difference because it isn't like the templars would actually choose to reverse tranquility anyway. So... it's really a moot subject.

 

I think Lambert's fear was that people would learn that tranquility could be reversed at all, and then actively try to reverse it, thus causing all sorts of problems. So I don't see why keeping that a secret would be a scandal. The rebellion was launched for other reasons.

 

Meredith was justified. The Seekers concluded that even after investigating the matter (though Lucius may have skewed the investigation). Even the Champion can conclude that Meredith was justified. Meredith's only fault was holding on to the red lyrium, which was more accidental and ignorant than intentionally malicious. The red warped her perceptions. She was actually somewhat of a victim.

[Yaroub]

I think you put too much stock in the Joining and treaties. My character was conscripted, and never referred to himself as a Grey Warden. He hated the Order and what they really stood for. So he was essentially a Fereldan patriot who had the taint resistance. Also, in my playthrough Alistair quit and Loghain underwent the Joining, and he hated the Order too. So the only Grey Warden I met who was worth a damn was Riordan. He showed how to do the Joining, brought Loghain into the fold, and grounded the archdemon. But the one who raised the army, freed Riordan, and slayed the archdemon, non-Wardens essentially. As for the treaties, the only time you actually need them to advance in the game is to get in to Orzammar. Otherwise, you can convince everyone to help you in exchange for helping them, including whoever rules Orzammar. Also, if the treaties had not gotten us in to Orzammar, I'm sure having Shale in the party would have gained us entry.

You're putting too much perspective of your personal playthrough experience and your HOF POV on the order, you say he didn't saw himself as a grey warden i say when Eamon's knight asked him what to call him he said "call me grey warden for that is what i am" mine was humbled and honored being a grey warden and enjoyed listening to stories about the legendary Garahel and various grey wardens tales.

 

You give no credit for wardens for ending the blight But HOF was a warden even if your's hated it he still was and couldn't pull through without being one.

 

And the treaties were essential without them they'd gaze at the clouds till the blight...blight them.

[Aren]

When i asked to Riordan as for why the Grey Wardens didn't share at least in part the secret of the Ultimate Sacrifice he said that it was because otherwise not  a single one would have joined (except the like of Mhairi and justice and many others....).

As someone already pointed out,i found that as to be one of the most stupid reason that he could have made.

1) come on Archdemon come to bother the world only after 400 years so this sacrifice is not even something common it is something very rare.

2)The joining will eventually lead to the warden death so sacrifice the elder members (like Riordan intended to do) doesn't seem to be so much to ask,you will die anyway.

Gharael died after being a GW for very long,his death was near,same with Corin same with Loris,US or not their death was near.

[Aren]

 

However, given how long the first blight lasted until the Grey Wardens were created and the history of blights since then, they are necessary until someone comes up with a better way of dealing with the archdemon problem, other than the dark ritual (and even that needs Grey wardens).   

The anchor to banish their soul into the fade

Or to use a darksapwn discples as a container for their soul

[IanPolaris]

But tranquility had been around for ages, and no one had that big of a problem with it. Discovering that it could be reversed would make no difference because it isn't like the templars would actually choose to reverse tranquility anyway. So... it's really a moot subject.

 

I think Lambert's fear was that people would learn that tranquility could be reversed at all, and then actively try to reverse it, thus causing all sorts of problems. So I don't see why keeping that a secret would be a scandal. The rebellion was launched for other reasons.

 

Meredith was justified. The Seekers concluded that even after investigating the matter (though Lucius may have skewed the investigation). Even the Champion can conclude that Meredith was justified. Meredith's only fault was holding on to the red lyrium, which was more accidental and ignorant than intentionally malicious. The red warped her perceptions. She was actually somewhat of a victim.

 

Meridith was NOT justified.  The Seekers were doing a CYA and Cassandra admits the Seekers had been doing that for centuries.  Meredith put (or tried to put) an entire group of people to the torch (quite literally) that had nothing to do with bombing the Chantry when she ignored the guilty party right in front of her.  She ALSO FLOUTED Chantry law not once but repeatedly.  The Seekers knew this, confirmed this, and did nothing.

[Aren]

By country authorities, even if they would end as tool in war still much better than world being destroyed because lack of oversight. Not rly, i don't see why chantry would turn oragniastion that is specialized to fight darkspawn into organisation that is specialized to fight mages especially they already have one.

 

 

You mean 4 because pretty much grey warden order had no involvement in fifth blight, add to that grey wardens were tiny percentage of forces fighting blight, grey wardens sole task is to kill archdemon to what takes 1 individual after joining what fifth blight proves. 

By checking the history of blights

1st blight,the archdemon Dumat was killed several times by Tevinter and the last time by the combined forces of Thedas,a GW only striked the final blow.

2nd blight Drakon and the Orlesian empire did most of the job while Corin killed the dragon

3rd blight combined armies of Thedas and Toth killed by Loris

4th Gharael and combined army of Thedas

5th HoF with no griffins and without the help of the other nations of Thedas,probably because the Archdemon didn't had many darkspawn as usual under his command

During the amaranthine events,the Wardens proved to be incompetent since all of them were killed by the disciples

[Korva]

I love the idea of the Grey Wardens because I have a soft spot for highly duty-bound characters with obligations that can't be forsworn and power that comes with a price -- predictably, the Calling trailer was what sparked my real interest in the game and the ultimate sacrifice remains one of my favourite endings to any game I've ever played. That said, even in Origins it was clear that they're not a spotless bunch of "knights in shining armor" so I don't think the way they were handled in Inquisition was character assassination as some believe. Though they did get hit by the everyone-is-incompetent-and-corrupt bat, that is (sadly) hardly exclusive to them because the Bioware folks swing that thing around very liberally.

 

The thing is, our characters in Origins were basically independent agents, clueless newbies who had to wing the whole thing on their own, so aside from the shock of the Joining we didn't get to see the grim and bitter sides of the order. And Alistair was an almost-as-clueless newbie who was so starved for acceptance and cameraderie that finally finding a place where he was actually wanted gave him a case of the rose-colored glasses. So was easier to get sucked into the "Wardens are awesome heroes" mindset. I'd still like to revisit the Wardens, see what the crisis in Weisshaupt was all about, and help kick the order into shape -- and I most certaintly don't want a taint cure because that would remove the whole bitter duty/heavy sacrifice theme that made them appealing to me in the first place.

[Aren]

Uhm... no, I wouldn't think that. There are still ranks and such, and -- the fifth Blight was an exceptional circumstance -- some noob Warden doesn't need a blueprint on how to conduct the Joining. It's one thing to be told that you drank some darkspawn blood, mixed with a bit of Archdemon blood, sealed with some magical preparation, but I don't think it's necessary that they know the exact method. Of course, since we actually had to go out and collect the darkspawn blood in DAO, I think that was a strong hint.

 

Besides, even if HoF and Alistair knew how to do it, they had no access to the Archdemon blood. I will assume that the supply Duncan had on hand was lost, and they were unable to access, nor did they know about, the cache in Denerim until Riordan told them about it.

 

Command structure is an important thing for any military organization, and not everyone needs to know everything. However, that is also not the same thing as being generally and deliberately secretive, which the Grey Wardens are.

Archdemon blood is not necessary to become a GW just as lyrium,the only thing required is the taint in sufficient potency.

http://forum.bioware...-over-ferelden/ (then click show only bioware post)

[Aren]

I love the idea of the Grey Wardens because I have a soft spot for highly duty-bound characters with obligations that can't be forsworn and power that comes with a price -- predictably, the Calling trailer was what sparked my real interest in the game and the ultimate sacrifice remains one of my favourite endings to any game I've ever played. That said, even in Origins it was clear that they're not a spotless bunch of "knights in shining armor" so I don't think the way they were handled in Inquisition was character assassination as some believe. Though they did get hit by the everyone-is-incompetent-and-corrupt bat, that is (sadly) hardly exclusive to them because the Bioware folks swing that thing around very liberally.

 

The thing is, our characters in Origins were basically independent agents, clueless newbies who had to wing the whole thing on their own, so aside from the shock of the Joining we didn't get to see the grim and bitter sides of the order. And Alistair was an almost-as-clueless newbie who was so starved for acceptance and cameraderie that finally finding a place where he was actually wanted gave him a case of the rose-colored glasses. So was easier to get sucked into the "Wardens are awesome heroes" mindset. I'd still like to revisit the Wardens, see what the crisis in Weisshaupt was all about, and help kick the order into shape -- and I most certaintly don't want a taint cure because that would remove the whole bitter duty/heavy sacrifice theme that made them appealing to me in the first place.

With Clarel the  writers exaggerated a bit imho.

They may have some flaw but they went overboard with that part of the game.

as for the taint cure i don't see as for why they should want to cure something that may improve their lifespan and grant others powers.

[Korva]

Yeah, they should have been more wary of an oh-so-helpful Vint who just happens to have the solution to all their problems. The main bugbear I had with them HLTA arc, though, was the fact that if memory serves, Clarel dismissed Corypheus' existence too readily. After the fall of Haven, surely the survivors would have gotten the word out ASAP that there's one of the original darkspawn magisters running around, connected to the Conclave disaster and the rifts all over the world. Even with the Nightmare demon driving the Wardens nuts, even with enemy agents possibly running counter-propaganda against the fledgling Inquisition, surely that is something that can't just be swept under rug. And if you play WE&WH first, Corypheus' existence and involvement is officially acknowledged and there's even less of an excuse to dismiss it.

 

It's one of many symptoms of the issue that Inquisition doesn't really have a story, just a series of barely-connected story episodes that the writers never seemed all that interested in, because as we know now in the end was all just window-dressing to set up Solas. Kind of a shame to waste hooks like the Wardens or the changing Chantry or the mage/templar war like that, eh.

[Dai Grepher]

You're putting too much perspective of your personal playthrough experience and your HOF POV on the order, you say he didn't saw himself as a grey warden i say when Eamon's knight asked him what to call him he said "call me grey warden for that is what i am" mine was humbled and honored being a grey warden and enjoyed listening to stories about the legendary Garahel and various grey wardens tales.

 

You give no credit for wardens for ending the blight But HOF was a warden even if your's hated it he still was and couldn't pull through without being one.

 

And the treaties were essential without them they'd gaze at the clouds till the blight...blight them.

 

I don't think I am, and I respect your play through as well. I'm just pointing out that its possible to play as an anti-Warden.

 

My Hero did not strike the final blow. Loghain did. And Loghain could hardly be called a Grey Warden at that point. He betrayed the Wardens at Ostagar and was only a newcomer when he slayed the archdemon. He resented being put through the Joining. What you're forgetting is that being a Grey Warden isn't just about having gained the resistance to the taint. It's also about being a part of the military order. Sophia Dryden went through the Joining, but because of her actions she was disavowed, even though she was a Warden-Commander.

 

The treaties are not essential. You can recruit every faction without even mentioning the treaties, except when gaining access to Orzammar. And as I wrote, if we hadn't had the treaties, then having Shale there probably would have gained the player access so the Shaperate could record Shale's existence.

[Dai Grepher]

 

When i asked to Riordan as for why the Grey Wardens didn't share at least in part the secret of the Ultimate Sacrifice he said that it was because otherwise not  a single one would have joined (except the like of Mhairi and justice and many others....).

As someone already pointed out,i found that as to be one of the most stupid reason that he could have made.

1) come on Archdemon come to bother the world only after 400 years so this sacrifice is not even something common it is something very rare.

2)The joining will eventually lead to the warden death so sacrifice the elder members (like Riordan intended to do) doesn't seem to be so much to ask,you will die anyway.

Gharael died after being a GW for very long,his death was near,same with Corin same with Loris,US or not their death was near.

 

 

I agree. And having the Ultimate Sacrifice be a secret is actually detrimental, because who is to say the Wardens who learn this won't flee? Compare that to if they are prepared for the possibility the whole time.

 

As for the US itself, I can understand the worry. The game makes it sound like your soul will be destroyed. It isn't just a case of the Warden dying. It's non-existence.

[DebatableBubble]

Nothing's changed. I still like them. Plus, they have a killer fashion sense.

[Dai Grepher]

Meridith was NOT justified.  The Seekers were doing a CYA and Cassandra admits the Seekers had been doing that for centuries.  Meredith put (or tried to put) an entire group of people to the torch (quite literally) that had nothing to do with bombing the Chantry when she ignored the guilty party right in front of her.  She ALSO FLOUTED Chantry law not once but repeatedly.  The Seekers knew this, confirmed this, and did nothing.

 

Meredith did not go after the Kirkwall Circle for the bombing. She did it for two reasons. 1. The Circle was corrupt anyway. 2. The people would demand blood for the bombing. So Meredith made a logical decision in annulling the circle. She would stop the known corruption she and her templars had been investigating, and she would calm the people of Kirkwall by delivering a swift response.

 

But you should also recognize that she will allow surrendering mages to be spared, as well as Bethany so long as Hawke advocates for it.

 

The Seekers agreed with Meredith's actions.

 

As for Anders, Meredith left it for the Champion to decide. Had it been up to her, she would have executed Anders without hesitation.
 

[IanPolaris]

Meredith did not go after the Kirkwall Circle for the bombing. She did it for two reasons. 1. The Circle was corrupt anyway. 2. The people would demand blood for the bombing. So Meredith made a logical decision in annulling the circle. She would stop the known corruption she and her templars had been investigating, and she would calm the people of Kirkwall by delivering a swift response.

 

But you should also recognize that she will allow surrendering mages to be spared, as well as Bethany so long as Hawke advocates for it.

 

The Seekers agreed with Meredith's actions.

 

As for Anders, Meredith left it for the Champion to decide. Had it been up to her, she would have executed Anders without hesitation.
 

 

Per DG, those Mages are all tranquilled and Meredith does NOT permit mages to surrender.  Cullen disobeys her if the Champion insists.

 

Also appealing to mob rule is the worst excuse of the incompetent and Meredith WAS incompetent as well as blood-thirsty.  If she arrests Anders on the spot and gives him a quick hanging (all very justified), the mob is satisfied, I assure you.

 

Also the circle WASN'T *all* corrupted.  Lambert hated all mages and wanted to kill them anyways (and if you don't believe me, read Asunder sometime).  Meredith and Lambert were soul-brothers, and the Seekers permitted gross abuses to exist for years and did nothing which is especially hypocritical since THEY were the very abominations they said they wanted to prevent.

[Dai Grepher]

 

During the amaranthine events,the Wardens proved to be incompetent since all of them were killed by the disciples

 

 

To be fair, the Architect's darkspawn were somewhat strategic, and they emerged from underground. The Grey Wardens felt them coming and probably headed to all ends of the Keep, thinking it was a surface attack. They couldn't have known they would attack in such numbers from so many underground openings in the keep. It is confirmed that there are multiple secret passages from the cellars to the surface all around the keep, which is why you have to keep traveling down in order to find one common tunnel to seal off.

 

I can't really blame the Orlesian Wardens for that one. They were on unfamiliar (and disadvantaged) ground, and they were surprised by those that were smarter than the average darkspawn.

[Dai Grepher]

 

as for the taint cure i don't see as for why they should want to cure something that may improve their lifespan and grant others powers.

 

 

Some Heroes just want to live a normal lifespan. Not 30 years or 500.
 

[Sports72Xtrm]

In the words of Blackwall, "Because they remember honor and sacrifice, words that have little meaning to the rest of us. Because they lay down their lives for those they have sworn to protect. We all need to believe there are such men in the world. I needed to believe I could be one of them." They take the best of Thedas, no matter their background, and ride griffons who act as their partners.

 

They could be heroes, though misguided at the moment. It's only the Joining that make them distateful, because tainting themselves to "save" the world seems too much like the Red Templars. If they decide to rid themselves of the taint and remove the Joining, they could be a secret warrior order dedicated to protecting Thedas. Probably could be more successful than the Inquisition as they are separated by cells, and don't answer to possible corrupt Divine.

 

TLDR: I like them.

[Aren]

 

As for the US itself, I can understand the worry. The game makes it sound like your soul will be destroyed. It isn't just a case of the Warden dying. It's non-existence.

Which is obviously something not proven either,but just what the GW believe.

The silent grove is a DA comic which is canon for the player in the case that Alistair remain a GW or was crowned king.

now the latter scenario may happen in fact with the scenario of the Loghain redemption means that Loghain soul should be technically "erased" and yet Maric reveal to Alistair that both Rowan nd Loghain souls are still in the fade and that he doesn't wish to return in the mortal world.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Fade(under the silent grove section) apprently the US didn't erased his soul.

 

Some Heroes just want to live a normal lifespan. Not 30 years or 500.
 

Is your choice to make it 100 to 500 you can simply allow the Warden to throw himself out of a window when he is  100 years old

[TheKomandorShepard]

So... you're saying the world needs Grey Wardens?

Eee, no if you didn't get the clue.As i said function that grey wardens provide can be performed by anyone as long you have access to joining.If grey warden order would be annihilated world wouln't even feel it.In fact as i said order that was appointed to save world from blights proved itself to be danger to the world.

 

Grey wardens order isn't necessity if there better alternative.   

[Qun00]

Eee, no if you didn't get the clue.As i said function that grey wardens provide can be performed by anyone as long you have access to joining.If grey warden order would be annihilated world wouln't even feel it.In fact as i said order that was appointed to save world from blights proved itself to be danger to the world.

Grey wardens order isn't necessity if there better alternative.

So we shall keep the Grey Wardens around but let's not call them that anymore.

From this day forward, they'll be known as Guys Who Took The Joining. Brave men who will save us from the Blight!

[In Exile]

They're all idiots. Quite literally every single GW we see who isn't the PC is an idiot. The closest we get to a competent GW who isn't actively dooming Thedas through incompetence is the GW companion in DAI. But people like Duncan and Riordan or Clarell - you just get suicidally stupid.