123 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Not all mages are born equally capable of the same thing... which is why you HAVE rote Circle spells... because those are grasped by the most mages... most of the time.  Some mages can't even light little fires...  "science" has nothing to do with it  

That's actually more of an argument *for* the predictable nature of magic, which implies that it can be understood with scientific methods. The same (mental) actions result in the same effects - that's the Circle spells. The hedge-mages don't have "formulas" for their actions so when two hedge-mages attempt a fireball, there are bound to be differences. Formulas draw on an established body of knowledge gained by experimentation. That's how the Circle spells came to exist. That mages have different skills is irrelevant: that you can't perform the required mental actions has no bearing on the fact that if you could them, you'd end up with a perfectly predictable result.

 

@Qis:

There is no built-in stagnation in magic, and there is no built-in progress in science. In both cases, any progress, or its lack, depends on the people who could do research, and either do it right or not or not at all. Also, progress depends on random factors. You can't just plan the next big discovery.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  To me, that's like saying - "If Pluto had been big enough, it would still be a planet."  Yes, we can alter classifications to fit everything into any box we choose.

I understand that you need magic to be a science so you can treat it that way when putting the pieces provided for you through gameplay and codexes. 

 

I've experienced the same gameplay and read the same codexes... I simply disagree.

 

But, the argument is largely moot and based solely on perspective... since neither of us can actually debate our concepts in an environment where our hypothesis can be proven.

[AlanC9]

Hedge mages ALONE make Thedosian magic unscientific.... it says clearly that they produce unique effects. 

Meaning that the mages have failed to investigate magic properly? That's certainly true. They haven't understood those traditions. But that's because they haven't tried. The Chantry doesn't want the Circles looking into other magic styles, for instance. But a Circle-trained Warden is perfectly capable of understanding other magics, should she make the attempt to learn them.

[Qis]

To the extent that's true, it's because fantasy games are set in societies that either haven't yet developed scientific method, or have just recently developed it. (Ferelden is probably right at the line there; they seem to have the theory without the widespread practice.) Note that non-magical technologies are typically just as stagnant as the magic in a fantasy world. To some extent this is because many fantasy worlds derive from the European Middle Ages, where technology had gone backward from an earlier era. Supposedly, anyway; there were actually a lot of technological developments during the so-called Dark Ages. Roman agriculture, for instance, was really crappy.

There's no actual reason why magic can't develop in the same fashion as other technologies develop, given the proper social conditions. A world designer can, of course, design the world so magic is inherently limited relative to technology. Do we have any reason to assume that this is the case in Ferelden?

 

Yes, it is the same case for Ferelden, as we know Qunari have an alternative to magic, that is science. As we know they are so sophisticated, they don't need magic and they hate magic. By all means they will progress in science because they will always find a way to become better and better, they will not be scientifically advance if they are conservatives and don't want to change

 

Their system make sure everyone will become the best in their role. A doctor will become the best doctor because he/she cannot be anything else than being a doctor. Their soldiers will be the best soldier and so on. They are all dedicated to own role in society. And they reject magic, so in order to make life better, they will progress in science.

 

It is for certain, and they always find certainty of things, nothing that happen without calculations, they calculate everything and that makes they are so certain in their life. They are a master of mathematic and countings.

 

In other way, Mages are conservatives, Mages only rely on their magic, Mages don't care about anything else because Mages only rely on their magic to solve their problems in everyday life. Mages only care on how to be more powerful in Magic and nothing else. This is selfishness. Mages will always try to dig out OLD MAGIC or ANCIENT MAGIC to make them more powerful.

 

Magic is always there, just forgotten or disappear and waiting to be discovered again and abused by another Mage...magic never change, it is old and ancient...

[Medhia_Nox]

@AlanC9  No, the codex strongly suggests that they create new magic.  

 

"He coined the term "arcanist derangement" and posited that magical talent is like a flowing river. When expressed through a mage, it finds a proper outlet through spellcraft. Left to its own devices it flows unexpectedly, and thus hedge mages are created.[1] Once becoming a hedge mage, there is no turning back – they cannot learn and cast spells as normal mages know them."

 

“Hedge mages” and “witches” do not always employ forbidden magic, quite often their talents lie in the creation of charms, the use of curses and the ability to change their own forms.[5] Their abilities may include being able to commune with spirits, as well. Still, those mages possess power no Circle spell could replicate and their unpredictable ability is deemed a threat by the Chantry."

 

"Prior to the Circle's formation, hedge magic was commonly practiced in the form of ancient traditions and rituals, with knowledge handed down from one generation of practitioners to the next. Examples of hedge mages include the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders and the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.[3] Qunari Saarebas are also essentially hedge mages with the focus on destruction.[6]".

 

--------------

 

New spell disciplines can be created (NOT discovered - as would be for science) by any hedge mage... and then propagated through tradition.

[Aren]

True, but comprehending and being able to manipulate forces are not at all the same thing. We had workable optics long before any real understanding of light, for instance. A prism works whether you understand color or not. Magical manipulation of light would be no different.

This is not how magic works in Thedas. It's not at all clear that gestures are really required, and words don't seem to be part of the process. This isn't really fatal to your point, but we should get details right.

A swing of a sword is different depending on who's swinging it. It does not therefore follow that swords are beyond science. What's the actual argument here?

This is moderately interesting, but utterly irrelevant to Thedas.

Protip: As much of a Lucretius fan as I am, tossing around Latin phrases without providing the translation isn't a great strategy. I used to do this sort of thing myself when I was young and stupid, and it never works. Mostly it just looks pretentious. (French phrases are even worse, but anybody who does that is usually trying for pretentious anyway.)

Magic is able to manipulate fundamental forces(all of them,not only light) such as gravity,doing so IRL it would require at least some improved understanding of the concept of gravity,you can't expect that romans or the celts would have manipulated something like that without knowledge or understanding.

Yet you can find your  hedge mage that will do that on will  without any understanding  of magic or gravity,yet the mage would be able to achieve great result without problems and without spells.

The swing of a sword isn't really an acceptable example,a sword will remain a sword no matter at how handsome and powerful is its owner,with magic everything is ready to transform in multiples results.

 

I merely used that statement to make a summary and there is nothing special in Latin,depending on background english may be considered to be more difficult,at least for me since i did more latin than english at school,but that is pretty famous it's super easy to find the meaning,plus it was a reply to someone who did know the it's meaning

 

Anything which is repeatable is something that can be scientifically studied.  That does not mean a mage who casts a spell to blast a darkspawn is doing science.  Of course he isn't.  Someone who shoots a gun or turns on a flashlight isn't doing science either.  Science is means of gathering information and drawing conclusions.  And evidence can be gathered and conclusions drawn as much about magic as anything else.  

Being repeatable is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.

If the method is not clear and is also tied to sensorial activities like some school of magic,spiritual,blood magic and other types of magic school,they rely on rules that if exist cannot be detected with scientific criteria

 

You have no idea how many times people have said this. Heck, what you said was my first responds to this topic.

and i responded multiples times as well as Mhedia Nox better than me, still i didn't found the answer.

 

[robertthebard]

Yes, theories and laws get proven wrong... because people were wrong about them, not because their fundamental nature changed.
 
Hedge mages ALONE make Thedosian magic unscientific.... it says clearly that they produce unique effects. 
 
So, unless we're saying that some scientists can produce hyper-drives... while other scientists will produce warp gates... but neither group will be able to reproduce the other's findings... we're not talking about science at all. 
 
It isn't a matter of incorrect classification... like Pluto isn't a planet anymore... "reality is change!"  - nothing changed about Pluto at all.  Science can change (because it's a make-believe system of classification) - nature never changes... and certainly not because you believe really hard. 
 
Not all mages are born equally capable of the same thing... which is why you HAVE rote Circle spells... because those are grasped by the most mages... most of the time.  Some mages can't even light little fires...  "science" has nothing to do with it

Not all people are born equally capable of the same thing, if we were, we'd all be Einstein level geniuses, or better. Odd that you take that stand point about nature never changing, but then say that magic can't be measured or reproduced, since, on Thedas, magic is a natural phenomenon. Of course, a lot of this post is odd in the same way. You have narrowed to the field of science to what boils down to physics, but completely ignored things like Biology or Geology, or even Paleontology. All sciences, and none of them capable of building either device w/out detailed blue prints. The problem here isn't that magic can't be measured or reproduced, I've already shown that it can, the problem is that you are trying to quantify it with real world thinking, and it doesn't apply.

Regarding changes you discuss, what about gravity? For centuries Isaac Newton was the father of gravity, until Einstein proved him wrong. This isn't just a change in classification, but in how the entire system works, or seems to work. The nature of how it works never changed, what changed was our way of looking at what's going on. Magic is studied in the setting. We have people like Dagna to support that they can indeed dissect it, and get to the inner workings of it. If, as you postulate, it was all over the place random, you couldn't do that, other than to conclude that it's all over the place random. This isn't the case though, is it. We have specialist mages that prove you can focus your energies in one direction. We have jack of all trades mages, that dabble in this and that. The existence of these dabblers does not negate the existence of specialists. In fact, the existence of dabblers proves that some direction of will is required, and can affect what a mage "knows".

If there weren't specific "schools", they couldn't pick and choose. A hedge mage is simply an idiot savant. They have no idea what they're doing, and it shows in their results. However, if taken in to a Circle to be guided, they can learn to channel that energy. Yes, that means that they can be educated about their power, and how to more effectively use it. Teaching, training, it's all the same, it's all education. To use an example similar to yours, do you think a marine biologist could build a warp drive? Does their inability to build that warp drive mean that they aren't a scientist?

[Qis]

We never heard about "new magic" in any fantasy world, there will always be "ancient magic" where magicians just discovered from "old ruins" or "old tomes"....

 

Such example, the Arcane Warrior, it is an ancient magic lost in old ruin, magic to manipulate the Fade...so The Warden discover this old magic in an old ruin. Then we hear nothing more about it, Arcane Warrior magic will not progress, it will stay as an ancient magic of the Elves

 

But guns, we will always hear about new technology, new guns, new bombs, in all fantasy world. Scientists, or mechanic, or smith, or someone will always come out with new gadget, upgraded gadget, or new inventions...

 

You can scrap things, or collect material and make something new out of them...technology will always move forward...

[robertthebard]

@AlanC9  No, the codex strongly suggests that they create new magic.  
 
"He coined the term "arcanist derangement" and posited that magical talent is like a flowing river. When expressed through a mage, it finds a proper outlet through spellcraft. Left to its own devices it flows unexpectedly, and thus hedge mages are created.[1] Once becoming a hedge mage, there is no turning back – they cannot learn and cast spells as normal mages know them."
 
“Hedge mages” and “witches” do not always employ forbidden magic, quite often their talents lie in the creation of charms, the use of curses and the ability to change their own forms.[5] Their abilities may include being able to commune with spirits, as well. Still, those mages possess power no Circle spell could replicate and their unpredictable ability is deemed a threat by the Chantry."
 
"Prior to the Circle's formation, hedge magic was commonly practiced in the form of ancient traditions and rituals, with knowledge handed down from one generation of practitioners to the next. Examples of hedge mages include the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders and the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.[3] Qunari Saarebas are also essentially hedge mages with the focus on destruction.[6]".
 
--------------
 
New spell disciplines can be created (NOT discovered - as would be for science) by any hedge mage... and then propagated through tradition.

So, what exactly is spellcraft? Wouldn't that be a science dedicated to the study and application of magic? Where do all these classifications you're quoting come from? Is it possible that, in trying to prove that magic can't be measured and reproduced, you have just provided codex entries that show that it indeed can be measured and reproduced well enough to generate not only a specific "science", aka spellcraft, but to also develop different categories of mage, aka classifications?

[robertthebard]

We never heard about "new magic" in any fantasy world, there will always be "ancient magic" where magicians just discovered from "old ruins" or "old tomes"....
 
Such example, the Arcane Warrior, it is an ancient magic lost in old ruin, magic to manipulate the Fade...so The Warden discover this old magic in an old ruin. Then we hear nothing more about it, Arcane Warrior magic will not progress, it will stay as an ancient magic of the Elves
 
But guns, we will always hear about new technology, new guns, new bombs, in all fantasy world. Scientists, or mechanic, or smith, or someone will always come out with new gadget, upgraded gadget, or new inventions...
 
You can scrap things, or collect material and make something new out of them...technology will always move forward...

Rift Mage says "Hello".

[Qis]

Rift Mage says "Hello".

 

Rift Magic is just appear when the Veil tear, and the Veil is an old thing, old magic of Solas

 

Rift Magic is as old as Solas

[AlanC9]

@AlanC9  No, the codex strongly suggests that they create new magic.  
 
"He coined the term "arcanist derangement" and posited that magical talent is like a flowing river. When expressed through a mage, it finds a proper outlet through spellcraft. Left to its own devices it flows unexpectedly, and thus hedge mages are created.[1] Once becoming a hedge mage, there is no turning back – they cannot learn and cast spells as normal mages know them."

But all this does is take us back a level in applying scientific method to magic. If it turns out that the particular types of magic are essentially arbitrary systems, there's still the underlying reality of what magical talent is. Since magical systems can be created, the trick is to start deliberately creating them to see how that process works. (Incidentally, this makes it obvious that Qis' point above is utter nonsense, since new types of magic are created all the time.)

It's a difficult research project, of course, since you only get one shot per mage to see what you can do, but that just means that you need a large population of test subjects. Even granting that it really is a single shot per mage; since we don't know how that process works, we can't really say that's an immutable fact.

And even if we don't want to go that far, it doesn't matter. Science would still work within the confines of any particular tradition, whether it can be bridged to all other forms of magic or not.

[AlanC9]

We never heard about "new magic" in any fantasy world

Avernus? The Tevinter mages opening up a way to physically enter the Fade? Every kind of magic was invented by someone at some point.

There is a convention that fantasy worlds are usually set after most of the inventing has been done, but that's just a convention, and a silly one at that.

[Medhia_Nox]

@robertthebeard:  "spellcraft" is a tradition... you're forcing it to be science because you want it to be.

 

That's like saying:  Ballet is "a science dedicated to the study and application" of motion.  Or "watercolor" is "a science dedicated to the study and application" of the imagery.

 

Not everything is "a science" just because it's a discipline that you perfect and hone toward a particular application. 

 

It's convenient and easy (and seemingly highly desirable) by lay-science enthusiasts to assert that everything is a "science" of some form or another... but, that's just a desire of approaching life in one way only.  

 

The reality is - magic on Thedas can be approached in many different ways... science cannot.  There is ONE WAY to approach science... that is through the scientific method.  

 

Let's look at animal sentience.  Human beings have known animals were sentient for thousands of years. Animism is a form of thought that not only animals, but all things, have spirits (sentience).  However, after over 2500 studies stating clearly that animals are sentient... science still has not officially stated that animals are sentient through that lens.  

 

People really should stop treating science like a way of life... it is a classification system and way of perceiving the world - but not the only way. 

[Qis]

Avernus? The Tevinter mages opening up a way to physically enter the Fade? Every kind of magic was invented by someone at some point.

There is a convention that fantasy worlds are usually set after most of the inventing has been done, but that's just a convention, and a silly one at that.

 

He/They must be learn it somewhere...in old tomes...or old ruins...or old demons...Archdemon is old anyway and magic is taught by Archdemons

 

That's what the lore say..."...and they whisper to men, teach them magic..."

[Illegitimus]

Yes, like what i already mentioned in other thread, magic is stagnant, 

 

Except when it isn't.  

 

 

Yes, it is the same case for Ferelden, as we know Qunari have an alternative to magic, that is science

 

No they don't.  The Qunari still have magic and Qunari chemistry isn't an alternative to it.  You don't have choose "Oh, we'll have chemistry or we'll have magic". Nor does their chemistry do all the things that magic can do.  They didn't use chemistry to try to fix the veil.  

 

 

Rift Magic is just appear when the Veil tear, and the Veil is an old thing, old magic of Solas

 

Rift Magic is as old as Solas

 

 

 

Solas didn't teach rift magic to any living person.  They had to reinvent it for themselves.  The history of science is full of people who made discoveries that had already been made by someone else.  

 

 

Let's look at animal sentience.  Human beings have known animals were sentient for thousands of years. Animism is a form of thought that not only animals, but all things, have spirits (sentience).  However, after over 2500 studies stating clearly that animals are sentient... science still has not officially stated that animals are sentient through that lens.  

 

 

"Science" doesn't officially state anything because science is neither a person nor an organization.  But there's no serious doubt among the scientific community that animals are aware of their surrounds and can think..  

[leaguer of one]

OK, I'm going to state this here because their is too much to respond to. Science is not the opposite or negation to magic. Science is the caluclation ,record, and reaction of nature and states. Magic is a reaction of nature and state which the meaning and source are unknown but may be related over agein.

Now natural reaction and phenomenon can be developed, use and fonctioned with out understanding how it's done but that does not mean science can't be applied to it. The world we live in does not function because of science, it's only understood by it and manipulated by it. Science is not a force, it's a calculation. Added to that a hedge mage can be explained with science and studied by science. Of course its not functioned by science because science is not a force, just like you walking is not functioned by science.

People keep trying to explain this to you and you keep ignoring it.

[Medhia_Nox]

@leaguer of one:  I can't assume you mean me... since I'm the one saying it's a system of classification and not an ideology (a "force" as you put it).  

 

You can't apply this system of classification to everything just because you feel like it... well, you can, because that's what myopic people do all the time.  But it isn't the best system of classification to apply to magic.  

[AlanC9]

He/They must be learn it somewhere...in old tomes...or old ruins...or old demons...Archdemon is old anyway and magic is taught by Archdemons
 
That's what the lore say..."...and they whisper to men, teach them magic..."

That's not how Avernus is working. He's doing research. And the Chantry doesn't know what they're talking about when they talk about magic.

Basically, you're hearing whatever you want to hear in the lore.

[AlanC9]

The reality is - magic on Thedas can be approached in many different ways... science cannot.  There is ONE WAY to approach science... that is through the scientific method.

But this is just verbal confusion. Science isn't a thing apart from scientific method. (This is where Qis went off the rails days ago.)

Substitute "ironworking" for "magic" above and you get an equally true, and equally meaningless, sentence.

[Medhia_Nox]

But this is just verbal confusion. Science isn't a thing apart from scientific method. (This is where Qis went off the rails days ago.)

Substitute "ironworking" for "magic" above and you get an equally true, and equally meaningless, sentence.

Equally true, but why equally meaningless?

Learning ironworking without the scientific method (which is how it was learned) is a perfectly valid way of doing it.  

[AlanC9]

Equally true, but why equally meaningless?
Learning ironworking without the scientific method (which is how it was learned) is a perfectly valid way of doing it.

Sure. Same thing for magic.

The meaningless part is saying that you can't do science except by doing science. It's just a tautology.

[leaguer of one]

@leaguer of one:  I can't assume you mean me... since I'm the one saying it's a system of classification and not an ideology (a "force" as you put it).  
 
You can't apply this system of classification to everything just because you feel like it... well, you can, because that's what myopic people do all the time.  But it isn't the best system of classification to apply to magic.

You do know that's what the mages in thesis did exactly. The classified branches of magic from day one into schools. What you are talking about is the rule of exceptions. Of course you can't classify everything, it becuse of that rule. That and the universe is too infinante to do so. Science is nt about that, its about understanding the basic laws of nature.

[robertthebard]

@robertthebeard:  "spellcraft" is a tradition... you're forcing it to be science because you want it to be.

No, you're forcing it to not be because it doesn't fit what you want to say. A person who studies spellcraft studies magic just as a geologist studies rocks.
 

That's like saying:  Ballet is "a science dedicated to the study and application" of motion.  Or "watercolor" is "a science dedicated to the study and application" of the imagery.
 
Not everything is "a science" just because it's a discipline that you perfect and hone toward a particular application. 
 
It's convenient and easy (and seemingly highly desirable) by lay-science enthusiasts to assert that everything is a "science" of some form or another... but, that's just a desire of approaching life in one way only.

Yes, it's far superior to claim that only the branch you study is science, and the rest is just what, mumbo jumbo? 
 

The reality is - magic on Thedas can be approached in many different ways... science cannot.  There is ONE WAY to approach science... that is through the scientific method.

...and yet, you ignore the scientific method for this discussion? You are starting with a result, and then working to prove it, which is the opposite of what the scientific method is. Look at the bright side, you have a promising career as a climate change specialist.
 

Let's look at animal sentience.  Human beings have known animals were sentient for thousands of years. Animism is a form of thought that not only animals, but all things, have spirits (sentience).  However, after over 2500 studies stating clearly that animals are sentient... science still has not officially stated that animals are sentient through that lens.  
 
People really should stop treating science like a way of life... it is a classification system and way of perceiving the world - but not the only way.

Because that's not what sentience means? So now we're expected to adhere not only to "the only science is my science", but we have to rewrite the English language to meet your requirements? Science is indeed yet another way to view the world, and yet, you're telling me, in this very post, to disregard my viewpoint on Spellcraft, because it doesn't fit what you want it to be, or rather, what you need it to be in order to continue with your very unscientific theory.