296 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

I really need to play this Deus Ex game. Seems right up my alley.

[o Ventus]

My pleasure. It's fascinating to me as well, because I often love stories about Artificial Intelligence. 

 

 

Have you heard of or played a game called SOMA (that's not an acronym, the title is in all caps for stylization)? It deals rather heavily with the topic of whether or not an AI construct can be considered a living being, and the philosophical differences between AI and the human mind. It's a survival-horror puzzle game with lots and lots of exploration through some very well-crafted environments and interesting background lore, with a fair bit of reading if you want the full story. There's no combat in the game, you have to evade and hide from enemies to progress.

 

It's on Steam, and I very highly recommend it, it's one of my personal GOTY contenders, if not the outright winner.

[o Ventus]

I really need to play this Deus Ex game. Seems right up my alley.

Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Human Revolution are gems (though the original perhaps hasn't aged quite so well). Deus Ex: Invisible War is very, very divisive. I personally hate it, but that's me. Human Revolution was one of the best games of 2011, if you ask me. The plot is good and the gameplay is solid. You can go through the entire game and not kill a single enemy. Stealth is not only viable, but the preferred way to tackle most levels. Playing through the game non-lethally is a lot of fun. There can be a lot of reading for background lore and extra world-building, though none of that is essential to the overarching narrative.

 

I'd give the original Deus Ex a 7.5 or 8.0 and Human Revolution an 8.0 or 8.5.

[78stonewobble]

It would just make sense imo. With the Reapers, and Geth being responsible for so much bull crap in the ME series. 

 

Would be cool if there was some infighting amongst humans, and aliens including Quarians if they're included(I mean there HAS to be at least a decent amount of Quarians who developed a strong hatred for synthetic life) over the creation of new synthetic creatures even if they're just VI's. 

 

I'm cool with that ... If I can get to treat organics and humans as my sexual plaything and torture victim creations... You know... Like god or just having it randomly end like that like natural selection. 

[Kabooooom]

Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Human Revolution are gems (though the original perhaps hasn't aged quite so well). Deus Ex: Invisible War is very, very divisive. I personally hate it, but that's me. Human Revolution was one of the best games of 2011, if you ask me. The plot is good and the gameplay is solid. You can go through the entire game and not kill a single enemy. Stealth is not only viable, but the preferred way to tackle most levels. Playing through the game non-lethally is a lot of fun. There can be a lot of reading for background lore and extra world-building, though none of that is essential to the overarching narrative.

I'd give the original Deus Ex a 7.5 or 8.0 and Human Revolution an 8.0 or 8.5.

Awesome! Thank you. So, the stories aren't so interconnected that if I play Human Revolution first instead of the original, it wont be too detrimental, right?

[Ahglock]

Awesome! Thank you. So, the stories aren't so interconnected that if I play Human Revolution first instead of the original, it wont be too detrimental, right?

Timeline wise human revolution is a perfect start. It's a prequel.

[Il Divo]

I really need to play this Deus Ex game. Seems right up my alley.

 

If you're a neuroscientist, I think it'll be right up your alley. 

[o Ventus]

Awesome! Thank you. So, the stories aren't so interconnected that if I play Human Revolution first instead of the original, it wont be too detrimental, right?

Invisible War is a direct sequel to the original game, but Human Revolution is an indirect prequel. Some things from the original are referenced, but that's about it. You can play Human Revolution completely on its own and not need to know anything beforehand. I recommend you get the Director's Cut of Human Revolution. It includes the campaign DLC for the game (and integrates it into the main campaign) and retunes the boss fights to make them more tolerable. Human Revolution's boss fights were pretty terrible, especially considering that the bosses are the only enemies in the entire game you HAVE TO kill. If you start the game without knowing this beforehand, it's entirely possible for you to enter a boss fight with no lethal weapons or ammo and be unable to kill the boss. Aside from the boss battles, the game is overall excellent. The art pallete does have a very heavy sepia filter to everything though, so the game can look rather tinted with brown-yellow at times.

[Kabooooom]

Awesome, thanks guys. I will make the directors cut for HR the next game I play. Once I am done with Fallout 3...I know, late to the party, and it isn't really my style which is why I never played it when it came out. But now its sucked me in and I gotta finish it.

[Mcfly616]

Timeline wise human revolution is a perfect start. It's a prequel.

 So much for prequels being the devil.

 

[Ahglock]

So much for prequels being the devil.

They aren't inherently bad. KOtor is a prequel in a sense. Is there a story to tell, is the time removed enough from the original that the story feels like it matters etc. I think if they had gone for a totally different style of game in the ME setting as a prequel it could have worked to some degree. But I doubt as a big seller. Anything too early no humans or no human biotics. Too late and it's hard to invest in a story when you know galactic consequences are just around the corner with a story already told. Dues Ex had none of the same issues thst ME does.

[Kabooooom]

They aren't inherently bad. KOtor is a prequel in a sense. Is there a story to tell, is the time removed enough from the original that the story feels like it matters etc. I think if they had gone for a totally different style of game in the ME setting as a prequel it could have worked to some degree. But I doubt as a big seller. Anything too early no humans or no human biotics. Too late and it's hard to invest in a story when you know galactic consequences are just around the corner with a story already told. Dues Ex had none of the same issues thst ME does.

I agree. Although, I totally wouldn't mind a game with no humans if it was set during the Rachni War and you could pick a species as the player character, with each one having a storyline and an alternate perspective on the war. I always thought thatd be fun.

[Mcfly616]

Too late and it's hard to invest in a story when you know galactic consequences are just around the corner with a story already told. 

if the sentiment that Mass Effect is "about the characters" -which is constantly trumpeted around these parts- is to be believed, then it really shouldn't matter what cosmic events happen later on in a timeline if you're actually invested in the characters current tribulations. The fact that events take place in the future doesn't render a story and its  characters meaningless or make them any less interesting.

 

Seems to be a go-to excuse for critics of prequels. A rather poor one.

[Ahglock]

I agree. Although, I totally wouldn't mind a game with no humans if it was set during the Rachni War and you could pick a species as the player character, with each one having a storyline and an alternate perspective on the war. I always thought thatd be fun.

What I would want is to use the setting in totally different ways. Like have a game where you are a PI on omega with one meta investigation with largeish X conspiracy and a series of minor investigations you take on that either push the plot or help you pay the bills. Have it take place during ME3 for all I care. Deal with the transition from aria to Cerberus back to aria during the investigation.

[Mcfly616]

What I would want is to use the setting in totally different ways. Like have a game where you are a PI on omega with one meta investigation with largeish X conspiracy and a series of minor investigations you take on that either push the plot or help you pay the bills. Have it take place during ME3 for all I care. Deal with the transition from aria to Cerberus back to aria during the investigation.

We can agree on that. Plenty of different games would be possible in the current timeline. I wouldn't mind being a double agent for C-Sec investigating the criminal underworld in a game taking place solely on the Citadel Presidium and the wards. Like a wide open rpg with massive amounts of freedom (as seen in Bethesda rpg's), yet it revolves around a more focused choice driven narrative (as seen in Bioware games).

 

Make it take place anytime before ME1, and the devs can take my money. Actually, they wouldn't have a choice, I'd throw it at them.

[O'Voutie O'Rooney]

I keep seeing the title for this thread. And I keep reading it as anti-eomthing else. My safe space is being threatened. Someone please protect me from my reading errors.

[Quarian Master Race]

Domination? What domination? The geth and the quarians cooperate with each other. The geth are doing what they were originally designed: helping the quarians - but out of their own will, not because they are forced to do so. And those who have geth installed into their suits? They are volunteers. Calling this domination is like speaking about the Council's subjugation of human while you are playing the first human Spectre.

A a cage is a cage no matter how gilded you may interpret it to be. Once the geth are given Reaper upgrades, the quarians have no say as to how they will continue their existence as anything other than a race entirely subservient to the demands of the geth, or otherwise have the option of becoming a footnote in galactic history. They are members of a political process in which they have no representation and no influence, and therefore are by definition subjugated and dominated. The conditions of this domination are irrelevant to its existence. A human housepet likely lives a materially better life than its counterparts in nature with its assurances of sustenance and shelter, but that does not change the fact that it is fundamentally a slave, owned by and subject entirely to the whims of a superior. The quarians are no different in the "peace" option, their previous subjugation and control of the geth being replaced by the converse. Really, this is logical by the rules of the universe, as these are the only two states in which the two can coexist (other than in openly violent conflict or the Control ending) due to the inherently unequal status and capabilties of organic life and synthetic technologies.

The humans were also in a subjugated state before the end of the first ME, as was every member of every species which allied itself to the Council but was not among the 3 dominant ones forming the institutionally racist oligarchy. They were subject to all of its laws, rules and regulations, yet had next to no representation in how these things were formulated. Being given a mere soldier who answers to and serves the whims of this said racist institution instead of his/her own species interests has no bearing on this relationship. The fundamental change occurs after the Battle of the Citadel and humanity's appointment to or siezure of political power and authority.

Also, Gerrel is still dedicated to his suicide attack upon hearing the geth's return to full force.


It is the authority of Admiral Tali'Zorah and Zaal'Koris and Shepard's words are what actually convince him.

What game did you play? That is not the order of events, at all. You either think me a fool, are delusional, or are simply a very poor liar. Here is the video

https://www.youtube....h?v=oES7oUpoNhc

Note that Shep merely informs Gerrel "The Reaper is dead" (thus the geth no longer have uprgrades and are vulnerable to destruction) and unilaterally tells him to stand down, whereupon Rael'Zorah's little princess (who did the same goddamn thing in telling Gerrel to stand down without providing a single logical reason before pathetically pleading for her life, and who I'll remind you needn't necessarily even have any Admiral's authority here) and the cowardly Admiral Traitor (who needn't even be alive to object) can chime in and rightfully be ignored (not at all convinced as you are suggesting) by opportunistic Gerrel, who insists that the war can be won right now (and to the best of the intel he has been provided by the ground team to this point, he would be correct). The geth's reacquisition of code upgrades is then elucidated by Shepard in the next line (along with some self righteous toaster hugging crap), wherupon Gerrel makes the sound strategic decision to surrender rather than martyr himself and his species in a battle wherein his erstwhile ally (Shepard) has betrayed and strategically maneuvered him into an extremely disadvantageous position against the enemy in order to achieve his strateic/political agenda.

The Intimidate option is much better, but Shepard initially still only vaugely tells Gerrel "if you don't want to be blown out of the sky, stand down" without elucidating the tactical reason as to why this might happen until later, when Gerrel likewise stands down. Oh, and it also avoids the stupid toaster hugging crap dialouge. The one time I played a Shepard who did this (before scrapping the toasters with Destroy anyway, naturally), she of course chose this line of reasoning (and beforehand allowed Admiral Race'Traitor to be killed by toasters in the most poetically justified manner possible on Rannoch) to avoid detached retina injuries that the Paragon option would have certainly elicited with how eye rollingly stupid it is.
https://www.youtube....h?v=5AYpVuOarZE

According to Legion themselves (itself? himself?), they considered other options and found none.

Itself. Seriously, regardless of your views on synthetic intelligences, Legion clearly is designed to be genderless unlike say EDI, so applying gendered pronouns to it is rather meaningless.

Anyway, that duplicitous toaster also said it wasn't carrying Reaper upgrades and lured me into an ambush by a huge Platoon of Geth Primes under false pretenses in order to forcibly impose its consensus upon me (after making me watch the most intellectually dishonest propaganda film in galactic history). I think we can reliably dispense with any notion that it is somehow an unbiased party in this instance. I can think of two other entirely feasible options for the geth right off the top of my head, surrendering to control by the quarians (as was Admiral Xen's intention for supporting the war) or uploading the code then retreating from Rannoch (defending themselves if necessary) rather than deliberately engaging in Total War and genocide against its adversary, and I don't have a high powered collective intelligence that can process massive amounts of information from vast distances across the galaxy at FTL speeds.

Some degree or separation between organic species is common. Colonization is rarely a joint-species effort, and even the Citadel has its asari, turian, salarian, etc. wards. Why would it be different between organics and synthetics? And if there are a smaller number quarian and geth living in the other's cities, you can hardly account for demographic distribution of minorities in a single picture. And they are living in separate cities, not the bombed-out remains of said cities. This shows that coexistence is possible, even if won't necessarily result in a utopia.

Xen's actions only prove my point in the earlier post: it's not that no organics can cooperate with synthetics, but that those few that refuse to do so try and destroy both synthetics and those organics who do.

The other species don't deliberately avoid each other (how far can you walk on the Citadel without running into an alien?) and have shown themselves capable of working together for extended periods of galactic history. Look at the two ending slides again. There is a quarian city that is identical to the one built in the Destroy ending without geth "help" and a geth settlement (along with Reaper) that is entirely quarian free. If any cooperation had happened, we would see evidence of it in the form of quarians without masks or intergration of geth technologies into their cities, but there is none. The logical conclusion is that any cooperative relations utterly broke down immediately after the war, and the only reason via in universe logic that there are not "bombed out remains of said cities" is the threat of Mutually Assured Destruction by Shepalyst.

Your "point" is irrelevant unless your solution is to eliminate or forcibly alter people like Xen (as the Synthesis ending does). Judging by the state of organic-synthetic relations in the galaxy pre war, I'd say that you are also incorrect in labeling this faction a "few" rather than the absolute, overwhelming majority that all empirical evidence has shown them to be.

But that conflict doesn't ended with a nuclear exchange. It ended when Gorbachev, leader of the SU, introduced such American (well, with a big asterisk) ideas such as free market, democratic elections and freedom of expression. It was the reaching of a (partial) consensus that resolved (partially) this conflict of ideas that you consider only solvable by violence.

Yes, it wasn't a smooth process. Washing a mud-caked wound out with disinfectant is painful. But it's better than lopping off the limb it's on.

Because once again Mutually Assured Destruction prevented both sides from acting how they wished. If not for the USSR's acquisition of the bomb in 1949, they would have been bombed back to the stone age during the Korean War (as General MacArthur wished and almost did anyway). They were mortal enemies united only by their wish for survival and the knowledge that destruction of the enemy could not be achieved, leading to their attempts in the Cold War and arms race to achieve geopolitical control and strategic superiority, which was never achieved. This is unlike in the MEverse, where the geth achieve it at the onset of the uprising and the quarians during their initial campaign to retake their planet, both times resulting in mass destruction of the opposition.

[78stonewobble]

A a cage is a cage no matter how guilded you may interpret it to be. Once the geth are given Reaper upgrades, the quarians have no say as to how they will continue their existence as anything other than a race entirely subservient to the demands of the geth, or otherwise have the option of becoming a footnote in galactic history. They are members of a political process in which they have no representation and no influence, and therefore are by definition subjugated and dominated. The conditions of this domination are irrelevant to its existence. A human housepet likely lives a materially better life than its counterparts in nature with its assurances of sustenance and shelter, but that does not change the fact that it is fundamentally a slave, owned by and subject entirely to the whims of a superior. The quarians are no different in the "peace" option, their previous subjugation and control of the geth being replaced by the converse. Really, this is logical by the rules of the universe, as these are the only two states in which the two can coexist (other than in openly violent conflict or the Control ending) due to the inherently unequal status and capabilties of organic life and synthetic technologies.
 

 

Well, if you suck and you loose, that is usually the way it goes. 

 

But in this case they are, in one scenario, asked to stay and make that decision themselves, so their self determinacy is still there.

[Quarian Master Race]

Well, if you suck and you loose, that is usually the way it goes.

But in this case they are, in one scenario, asked to stay and make that decision themselves, so their self determinacy is still there.

So Might Makes Right? Do you also choose the Refuse outcome because you are incapable of defeating the Reapers and their logic is correct? If not, than why is geth acquisition of Reaper technology a consistent application of this philosophy? Considering that without it they are the ones who "suck and lose" compared to the quarians, who need no Reaper assistancee to impose their will upon the toasters.

Breaking into someone's house, holding a gun to their head and informing them it is mine, but they can stay if they do everything I tell them to isn't "self determination", It is coercion, theft and violent subjugation no matter the supposed "compensation" I offer.

[KaiserShep]

A a cage is a cage no matter how guilded you may interpret it to be. Once the geth are given Reaper upgrades, the quarians have no say as to how they will continue their existence as anything other than a race entirely subservient to the demands of the geth, or otherwise have the option of becoming a footnote in galactic history. They are members of a political process in which they have no representation and no influence, and therefore are by definition subjugated and dominated. The conditions of this domination are irrelevant to its existence. A human housepet likely lives a materially better life than its counterparts in nature with its assurances of sustenance and shelter, but that does not change the fact that it is fundamentally a slave, owned by and subject entirely to the whims of a superior. The quarians are no different in the "peace" option, their previous subjugation and control of the geth being replaced by the converse. Really, this is logical by the rules of the universe, as these are the only two states in which the two can coexist (other than in openly violent conflict or the Control ending) due to the inherently unequal status and capabilties of organic life and synthetic technologies.

A cage suggests that the quarians would somehow be trapped at the whims of the geth. So what demands would the geth have beyond the obvious prohibition of any attempts to control or destroy them? It's not as if the quarians offer anything of value that they could use, or that the geth's needs really have much overlap with theirs. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I for one still wish Overlord had borne fruit

[78stonewobble]

1. So Might Makes Right? 2. Do you also choose the Refuse outcome because you are incapable of defeating the Reapers and their logic is correct? 3. If not, than why is geth acquisition of Reaper technology a consistent application of this philosophy? 4. Considering that without it they are the ones who "suck and lose" compared to the quarians, who need no Reaper assistancee to impose their will upon the toasters.

5. Breaking into someone's house, holding a gun to their head and informing them it is mine, but they can stay if they do everything I tell them to isn't "self determination",  6. It is coercion, theft and violent subjugation no matter the supposed "compensation" I offer.

 

1. No, I didn't say that. I made no moral judgement. Just saying that's how it goes usually. Plenty of extinct animals around. 

 

2. Well, the reaper logic is not worthy of acceptance and I win. Sacrificing the brave volunteers of the 1st geth army. Just like pretty much any other commander has sacrificed lives to win. 

 

3. It isn't. Reaper/catalyst logic is faulty. 

 

4. They needed other advantages... oh boo hoo... 

 

5. Shouldn't have let em in then, if you didn't want that to happen and if you do let a guy with a gun in... don't provoke the man to throw you out and take all your stuff if all he wanted was a dinner. A better analogy is me programming my kid in such a way that my kid wants to kill me for not doing what I want. Doesn't absolve me for the responsibility for my "kids" actions. Those would be squarely on my shoulders. 

 

6. Just like them biological machines out in nature (and us) are... Unless we decide otherwise. 

 

What's your point? That because something is mean... it's mean and it's ok to be mean in return? Well, therein lies the choice... 

[Boost32]

I for one still wish Overlord had borne fruit

Would be cool if you saved and continued the project, the player would have a fourth choice in Rannoch, control the Geth using the Overlord, gainning access to both army.

[Lady Artifice]

I for one still wish Overlord had borne fruit

 

I just bet you do. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I just bet you do.

Those evil robot toasters would make good canon fodder for someone besides the Reapers then.