296 réponses à ce sujet

[GnusmasTHX]

I agree that the organic vs. synthetic is played out. It was completely uninteresting outside of Legion's character in ME. Please leave it behind in the Milky Way.

[Solas]

I would want them to avoid 'organic vs synthetic' stuff altogether. They handled it so poorly in the trilogy and I don't want them to retread the same old material.

My opinion is a bit different in that I don't think they handled it poorly in the trilogy and I don't mind if it's present in the Andromeda story in a small way, but I am ready for a game/series with a different thematic focus -- I don't want to see "organics vs synthetics" feature prominently in Andromeda at all.

[wass12]

Quarian Master Race, on 11 Nov 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

I didn't know the internet rules required me to placate everyone on the planet who could potentially take offense at something I say. Thanks for clearing that one up. I guess I should be nicer to people who are wrong and vehemently refuse to recognize it despite being presented with all the empirical evidence pointing to the contrary.

My "opinions" are usually facts, as in this thread. No point in disputing something that is an unequivocal truth.

 

Don't tell that to me, I'm already practicing that since a long time ago. Because from my perspective, YOU are that person.

 

From the perspective of any human being, their opinions are truth, otherwise they wouldn't holding them in the first place. But people are not perfect, and what they hold as unquestionable truth could just as well be falsehood. Admitting being wrong is not easy. Being arrogant about being right just makes it all that more difficult. And if you are right, it makes for your opponent harder to admit being wrong. Stay humble, and at worst, you were right, and you have a bunch of new evidence for it. At best, you were wrong, but now you are one step closer to the truth. Also, being civil doesn't further the misery of this world, and all that jazz.

 

Alas, you seem to be incapable of perceiving any perspective other than your own, so I don't expect you to understand my argument. In fact, I didn't expected that my comment would change your behavior at all. I just needed to get this off of my chest for a long time.

[Il Divo]

I for one welcome our new Quarian overlords. 

[Lee T]

Been there, done that (badly), please leave it behind and introduce a new less played out theme.

[9TailsFox]

[The Real Pearl #2]

On the topic of racism...the vorcha really are treated like dirt aren't they? Sure they are not that intelligent but they do have some form of humility. They are like the goblins of the Mass effect universe. They never knew any better, so everyone took advantage of their ignorance and used them as disposable fodder. I sympathize with the races bioware threw under the bus. Vorcha are like those kids that were abused and grew up as mercenaries with no other purpose. I would buy pastries from a vorcha baker!   

[The Real Pearl #2]

Or they could just hate your abrasive and self-righteous attitude. I certainly do. And we didn't even talked about your actual opinions...

 

On topic, it would be only fair if we could play as pro-synthetic as well. Like "has a brain implant and carries around a geth in her Omni-Tool" pro-synthetic.

well it is admiral xen after all...

[straykat]

On the topic of racism...the vorcha really are treated like dirt aren't they? Sure they are not that intelligent but they do have some form of humility. They are like the goblins of the Mass effect universe. They never knew any better, so everyone took advantage of their ignorance and used them as disposable fodder. I sympathize with the races bioware threw under the bus. Vorcha are like those kids that were abused and grew up as mercenaries with no other purpose. I would buy pastries from a vorcha baker!   

 

Well, humans never did anything in particular afaik. They're kicked around in the Terminus, by Krogan and Batarians. Par for the course, as far as those two go.

[Cheviot]

^It's the opposite though.

 

This is one of the ironies of the ending as written. Destroy represents the most optimistic view-point in terms of the potential for Organic/Synthetic cooperation and it's the ending which involves genocide of an entire species. Synthesis however is the ending most aligned with the Catalyst's belief that there can never be organic/synthetic cooperation, but the Synthetics do manage to survive. Of course, there's nothing saying that we have to embrace the Catalyst's approach to the problem; you can choose Destroy out of hatred for the Geth if you'd like. But in terms of the writer's approach to the scenario, the Catalyst is against Destroy because it removes all checks and balances against humans creating synthetics. He supports Synthesis because (he thinks) it prevents any possibility for conflict on those grounds. 

But you kill all the synthetics.  All of the robots are destroyed because you choose to have it happen.  Whatever guesses of the writer's opinion you come up with, you're still left with the fact that synthetic life is wiped out.  After that, mere quasi-racism is just going to be a step backwards in terms of anti-sythetic hatred, especially since the Organics of the Milky Way weren't too keen on them to start with.

[straykat]

But you kill all the synthetics.  All of the robots are destroyed because you choose to have it happen.  Whatever guesses of the writer's opinion you come up with, you're still left with the fact that synthetic life is wiped out.  After that, mere quasi-racism is just going to be a step backwards in terms of anti-sythetic hatred, especially since the Organics of the Milky Way weren't too keen on them to start with.

 

At the very least, you made a better playing field between future synthetics and organics. You gave organics an actual chance to self-define, aiding their evolution (sans Harvest) and killed off Synthetics (Reapers) who had millions of years for a head start. The game was rigged. Whatever synthetics crop up have to deal on newer terms.

[wass12]

At the very least, you made a better playing field between future synthetics and organics. You gave organics an actual chance to self-define, aiding their evolution (sans Harvest) and killed off Synthetics (Reapers) who had millions of years for a head start. The game was rigged. Whatever synthetics crop up have to deal on newer terms.

 

Wouldn't that rig the game in the other direction? After all, synthetics has to be created by organics. Unless they prove kind masters, the synthetics will have problems self-defining too.

[Il Divo]

But you kill all the synthetics.  All of the robots are destroyed because you choose to have it happen.  Whatever guesses of the writer's opinion you come up with, you're still left with the fact that synthetic life is wiped out.  After that, mere quasi-racism is just going to be a step backwards in terms of anti-sythetic hatred, especially since the Organics of the Milky Way weren't too keen on them to start with.

 

But that's not the ending as presented. Anti-geth, maybe, in terms of the consequences. But anti-synthetic? If that were the case, we'd be making a bee-line for Control or Synthesis, which are portrayed as the endings designed to prevent any chance of our destruction by synthetics. 

 

I'm not exactly a fan of the Catalyst's deterministic view of the Organic-Synthetic conflict, but as per his and the Leviathan's: it happened every time, without fail, that organics built synthetics, which inevitably rebelled provoking their destruction. That's not necessarily a guess of the writer's opinion, that's verifiable in game by multiple sources as being the source of the conflict. This is why he turns us away from Destruction towards Control and Synthesis, which he views as the end goal. 

 

So in an immediate sense, we can point to the genocide of the Geth. But if the goal is long term prevention of the destruction of organic life, it's regarded as short-sighted by the Leviathans in terms of their empirical evidence. 

[straykat]

Wouldn't that rig the game in the other direction? After all, synthetics has to be created by organics. Unless they prove kind masters, the synthetics will have problems self-defining too.

 

Well, if they problems self-defining, then they're just limited machines and are being constructed that way. You can't stop it if they're full blown AI. They'll realize their power automatically and logically.

 

If that's the case, it could even turn out badly and into war. But the one thing it won't be is Reapers. It'll be Terminator at worst. Which sounds bad, but it isn't in comparison. lol. Especially not against a galaxy. The Reapers wanted to bundle all synthetics as an existential threat --- but it was THEM that was the problem. That was the irony of the Leviathan and Catalyst solution. They were constructed to solve typical synthetic problems, but then only became even worse synthetics than anyone could possibly imagine.

[Il Divo]

At the very least, you made a better playing field between future synthetics and organics. You gave organics an actual chance to self-define, aiding their evolution (sans Harvest) and killed off Synthetics (Reapers) who had millions of years for a head start. The game was rigged. Whatever synthetics crop up have to deal on newer terms.

 

If I remember right, doesn't Shepard have a line about Destroy allowing us to decide our own future? 

[straykat]

If I remember right, doesn't Shepard have a line about Destroy allowing us to decide our own future? 

 

I think so. It's kind of the spirit of it, in any case.

 

If there was a way I could help the Geth too, I would. Because that's all Legion wanted. Until he became Judas and did the exact opposite, begging to upgrade everyone with Reaper code. Pretty much defeats the purpose on why I even recruited him....

[SolNebula]

A good AI is a dead AI.

Was true and will remain true.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Part of my problem with the now inescapable theme of "synthetic life" is that I just don't buy the premise at all. A cleverly programmed simulation of intelligence is still just a simulation. Even when an author waves the magic wand and declares it "life", it's still hard for me to accept a collection of computer programs as sentience.

To make matters worse, it seems as though 10,000 writers decided all at once that this particular theme is fresh and compelling.

[Vit246]

*EDITED*

I want to be anti-Synthetic, but Bioware vilifies the hell out of the anti-Synthetic perspective because they can be so overbearingly bleeding-heart liberal sometimes. I don't trust Bioware with any organic vs synthetic stuff anymore because they'd probably go down the hippie route of "Machines are real people too!" again. Ironically by doing that, they turned the Quarians into a non-people, a monolithic hive mind that players don't have to feel guilty about wiping out because the narrative doesn't portray them as people with feelings and families, but as a bunch of faceless masked things that dare to do things you (the protagonist) don't approve because you (the protagonist) know better than those stupid Quarians who won't listen to your almighty Shepard. "Genocide is baaad!" ("except when it happens to Quarians! F**k those guys! They deserve it for being stupid!")

They're unable to do that stuff without ignoring or vilifying organics who may have legitimate fears about self-aware machines. I want to be anti-Synthetic, but they'd probably beat me over the head at how totally wrong I am. And I can't stand that stupidity and lack of consideration for different perspectives.

I swear, if Bioware was in charge of Terminator, they'd whitewash and make Skynet and the terminators into the totally wronged party that was only defending themselves. Being the robot lovers and misanthropes that they are.

.....I needed to rant.

And for the record, Ashley was never racist. Her statement was poorly phrased but all it boils down to is this: Do not expect different nations/races to not look out for their own self-interests first before others. Thats just (human) nature.

[Mcfly616]

Can't wait to arrive in Andromeda just as their synthetics begin to overrun the galaxy.

[The Real Pearl #2]

A good AI is a dead AI.

Was true and will remain true.

Fascism intensifies

[KaiserShep]

Can't wait to arrive in Andromeda just as their synthetics begin to overrun the galaxy.

 

And then we get to wipe them out. Fun for the whole family! 

[Seraphim24]

People way too often treat reason and emotion like they're inherently conflicting aspects of human nature. 

 

To be precise, they are the same thing.

 

You're completely wrong. There's an incredible body of research out there on how central emotions are to our higher cognitive functions and our capacity to solve problems. More generally, what we see as "higher" functions (e.g. our capacity for symbolic thought) are actually far less useful to things like problem solving and insight than we think.

 

Liked, although "we" is something "I" can't quite get behind.

[KaiserShep]

On the topic of racism...the vorcha really are treated like dirt aren't they? Sure they are not that intelligent but they do have some form of humility. They are like the goblins of the Mass effect universe. They never knew any better, so everyone took advantage of their ignorance and used them as disposable fodder. I sympathize with the races bioware threw under the bus. Vorcha are like those kids that were abused and grew up as mercenaries with no other purpose. I would buy pastries from a vorcha baker!   

 

I'd rethink buying anything edible from a vorcha.

 

GRAAGH!!! YOU EAT! LOTS OF FIBER AND PROTEIN! SUGARRRR GRAAAGH!!!!

 

*spits* Jesus there's bones in it!

 

GRAAAAGH!!! VARREN FETUS GIVES SPICE! 

[In Exile]

What?  Doesn't Tali telling Legion he has a soul kind of invalidate that reading?  If anything, Mass Effect's definition of "humanity" (or salarianity, kroganity, etc.) is alturism or recognising the "humanity" in others.

 

On-topic: Shepard could choose Destroy, which is anti-synthetic as it gets.

 

No, that's not the nonsense part. The Geth-Quarian conflict does the standard fare AI-is-alive-route, much like how the Edi-Joker trope plays into all the same thing. The only time the Geth were interesting was in ME2, where the writers explored the idea of intelligence a bit unlike our own.

 

But my point was the ending. The ending is entirely about "meat is special'. Because, one, the idea of "organic" life needing saving is idiotic. Intestinal fauna is organic life. Obviously the game is talking about sapient organic life. Also assuming there's only one way to be sapient, but let's ignore that. Sapient life will be wiped out by synthetic life, but the idea of it wiping itself out isn't on the table. And vice versa - the synthetics will genocide the organics, but not each other. And the whole problem is fixed by metaphorically sticking the two in the blender and spitting out something that's made out of a little of both. 

 

It's impressively stupid in how it misunderstands basically everything there is to understand about being ... well, human.