Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the cheesy Meredith w/red lyrium angle a late-development idea?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
21 réponses à ce sujet

#1
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages

Certainly I'm not the only one who thought that whole battle sequence with Meredith was poorly done, silly and/or unnecessary. Meredith didn't need red lyrium insanity to be a ruthless, mage-fearing knight-commander. Even in DA2's own lore Meredith was ruthless before her red lyrium madness. Ex: Anders' mentioning mages being made tranquil for the slightest crimes (Karl, Maddox). Meredith also has a backstory concerning a sister who became an abomination that killed 70+ people. The "red lyrium fueling her hatred" angle felt like overkill.

 

Was this a late idea? Bioware did make further use of the red lyrium concept in DA:I, but that's irrelevant here. If unsatisfied with DA2's ending, how would you have done it?


  • springacres aime ceci

#2
Fylimar

Fylimar
  • Members
  • 350 messages

I agree, it's a stupid plot twist. Like Orsino trying to talk sense into Meredith and being the one down to earth guy in this whole conflict and suddenly goes Harvester on Hawke, after we won a battle against the templars. Both Orsino and Meredith were interesting characters, that deserved a little more realistic character description. They both were so believable until the end. It was ok until after the fight against the templars, that makes Orsino go nuts. It went downhill from there. We, the players should believe, that Orsino was just another crazy bloodmage and Meredith a red lyrium zombie.

I know, that Orsino was never intended to be a boss, until someone decided, there was need of another bossfight  (why they didn't use Alain for that, who at least know something of blood magic, is beyond me). I don't know, if Meredith was a lyrium zombie from the beginning or if the developers just thought, she would be more frigthening that way (with all the statues coming to life and glowing eyes and such).

 

What always bothered me was, that after that dissapointing showsdown, you never even get to know, if the nicer people in the gallows, Sol, Alain, Kevan, those recruits from act 1, survived the fight. It would have been nice to at least show them among the more reasonable templars, who sided with Cullen in the end.


  • vbibbi, sonoko, springacres et 1 autre aiment ceci

#3
straykat

straykat
  • Members
  • 9 196 messages

I doubt it was late. Just Act 3 was probably not given the time the others were.

 

Bioware overly relies on artifacts and ancient events as the centerpiece of their stories. DA2 was somewhat an exception thankfully, since it's more about other events in Hawke's life. But even then, their rise in status came from the Expedition as well. It finally comes back in a bad way, with Meredith. I think this part was always planned, since it fits their formula. Whether it's the Idol, the Anchor, Star Forge, Prothean artifact.. there's usually something driving events like this.



#4
Ghost Gal

Ghost Gal
  • Members
  • 1 016 messages

I rather doubt it was a late development idea, simply because red lyrium is so important to the events in Thedas in DA2 and DAI. Most of the escalating violence and paranoia that led to the Mage/Templar War in DA2 turning out to being fueled by a seemingly random red lyium idol they found underground and brought to the surface sounds like an early development idea. The red lyium that turned out to play a big part in the DA2 conflict becoming directly responsible for a good portion of DAI's story (Varric asked Bianca to look into the red lyrium, only for her to accidentally help Corypheus learn how to use it, which caused him to start using it to corrupt Templars into Red Templars, etc), sounds like a core story idea rather than a later development.

 

I think the way it was executed was rather rushed and sloppy, but that's probably because the game was rushed to release.


  • vbibbi, Dabrikishaw et straykat aiment ceci

#5
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages

I rather doubt it was a late development idea, simply because red lyrium is so important to the events in Thedas in DA2 and DAI. Most of the escalating violence and paranoia that led to the Mage/Templar War in DA2 turning out to being fueled by a seemingly random red lyium idol they found underground and brought to the surface sounds like an early development idea. The red lyium that turned out to play a big part in the DA2 conflict becoming directly responsible for a good portion of DAI's story (Varric asked Bianca to look into the red lyrium, only for her to accidentally help Corypheus learn how to use it, which caused him to start using it to corrupt Templars into Red Templars, etc), sounds like a core story idea rather than a later development.

 

I think the way it was executed was rather rushed and sloppy, but that's probably because the game was rushed to release.

I already said that DA:I is irrelevant here. All those plots could have been created during DA:I's development once Bioware was already in bed with the red lyrium idea.

 

To me, slipping in the red lyrium idol to fuel a war that really didn't need it to happen anyway feels like a late-development notion. They could have also done Bartrand's betrayal without it, and later on perhaps decided to make him go mad because of it, have a haunted house, etc. ...It just feels like they wanted the Meredith showdown to be more dramatic/flashy, and facing a ruthless old woman in armor didn't satisfy them compared to DA:O's final battle. This may not be the case, and I'm wondering if anyone has heard whether or not it was. I do understand they had Orsino turn into a harvester regardless of your allegiance for similar reasons though.



#6
Ghost Gal

Ghost Gal
  • Members
  • 1 016 messages

I already said that DA:I is irrelevant here. All those plots could have been created during DA:I's development once Bioware was already in bed with the red lyrium idea.

 

All right, then let me rephrase that: the devs have said that while individual details and quests change a lot from early conception to final development, the overall "spirit" of the story and progression of events stays the same.

 

For example, early DAO drafts were going to reveal that Eamon and Cailan were plotting to divorce Anora to remarry Celene. Loghain caught wind of it, fought with Cailan about it (which Cailan's tent guard at Ostagar hints at in the final cut), then when Cailan refused to yield Loghain left him to die at Ostagar, took over as regent, and launched his own Orlesian witch hunt. The Warden was going to uncover this over the game, ultimately culminating in Celene appearing at the Landsmeet to reveal to vindicate Loghain's Orlesian paranoia. Most of this got cut; the plot is only hinted at in a few letters found in the Return to Ostagar DLC (with Loghain lying about not knowing Eamon's and Cailan's plan beforehand), and Gaider changing his mind that, "Loghain knew about it, and was planning on talking to Cailan about it after Ostagar but then felt forced to leave him behind after the signal was lit too late" BS.

 

Similarly, many new revelations of elves in DAI that were supposed to be revealed in DA2 but got hoisted over to DAI. The Exalted March DLC was intended for DA2, but got cut. Rather than scrapping the ideas though, they simply moved the story ideas into DAI. For example, The Temple of Mythal was originally supposed to appear in the Exalted March DLC which Hawke and co. discovered, but instead it wound up appearing in DAI where the Inquisitor and co. discovered it. The devs have specifically said that the revelation that vallaslin were slave-markings and that Arlathan fell to civil war rather than Tevinter was planned from the very beginning; it wasn't just something they retconned or made up for DAI. Apparently also the revelations of ancient elves being not-so-nice, the Temple of Mythal still standing, ancient elves still being around (Abelas and co.), and ancient elven gods manipulating world events behind the scenes (Mythal and Fen'Harel) seems like it was all planned from the beginning. Even though the information that was meant to be presented in a DA2 DLC wound up being presented in a DAI main story quest in a very different way, the core information and series of events (the revelations that ancient elves both weren't that nice and are still around and are manipulating world events for a comeback) stayed the same.

 

The devs have said they've got the basic, overall main story for the first five DA games all planned out. We're only on Game Three of a Five Game Series. A lot of ideas that were supposed to appear in one form but ended up appearing in another form (Cailan's planned divorce of Anora for Celene) or moving to a different game altogether (Temple of Mythal from DA2 DLC to DAI main story) and the overall story largely playing out the same regardless of player choices (the Warden stopping the Fifth Blight, the Mage/Templars breaking out into open war by the end of DA2, the Mage/Templar War being stopped and the Circles being restored and the College of Enchanters being built by the end of DAI, etc) makes me think some poorly executed features in one game that wind up playing a huge part in another means it's supposed to be important from the start.

 

THAT'S why I think red lyrium was supposed to be a major player from the beginning. Regardless of whether you think red lyium turning out to be responsible for Meredith's tyranny and insanity being a last-minute ass-pull at the end of the game, the fact that it is such a huge player in the overall DA2 story arc and continues into the DAI story arc makes me think it was supposed to be there from the start. It certainly helps that revelations about red lyium in DA2 turn out to be really lore-heavy; Varric sends Bianca to learn more about it, she accidentally gives Corypheus the means to use it for some major DAI enemies, she discovers that red lyium is blighted lyrium, and since it's blighted that means lyrium's alive, then the Inquisitor discovers in the Descent DLC that lyrium is the blood of Titans, and there have been hints in DAI that the titans and/or the dwarves' connection to titans will play a much bigger role later.

 

I think it's more likely that red lyium was supposed to have more buildup and integration into the plot, but since the stupid game was rushed to release, they couldn't give it the time and attention it deserved. Since they had to rush this stupid game out the door by a quick deadline, it's like, "Okay, just hit the important points; Hawke and Varric find it in the Deep Roads, Bartrand brings it to the surface, it slowly drives Bartrand mad, Hawke and Varric relieve him of it, Meredith eventually gets her hands on it, it slowly fuels her paranoia and insanity, it pushes the mage/Templar conflict to the forefront. Okay: Boom. Done. Animate it and push it out the door."

 

Saying "Well, don't bring DAI into this, only judge DA2" doesn't really work because a lot of the overall narrative progression covers multiple games. A seemingly innocent little detail in one game can turn out to be a big story point in another; and the fact that red lyium plays such a huge roll behind the scenes this game, and turns out to have a big roll next game, and ends up revealing fundamental lore about this universe next universe (Titans being underground, lyium being their blood, and dwarves having some mysterious connection to them) makes me think it was always supposed to be there, it was just badly presented this game.


  • vbibbi, Dabrikishaw, congokong et 1 autre aiment ceci

#7
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 314 messages
I don't think we are supposed to take it as "Meredith only turned bad because of red lyrium". She has a clear backstory made to explain exactly that.

#8
renfrees

renfrees
  • Members
  • 2 060 messages

Gaider talked about DA2 initially having ended on the Qunari uprising. Then they thought the game would be too short, so it seems the whole Act 3 was the later addition to the plot. Which shows, since it's the most rushed act with a lot of loose ends, plot holes and shoehorned decisions.



#9
Fylimar

Fylimar
  • Members
  • 350 messages

I guess, we can agree, that some plot elements in DA2 were rushed and therefore not as well executed, as they could have been.

I haven't played DAI yet and don't know, how important red lyrium is there, but if it is that important, it could have brought into DA2 a bit more elegant. Maybe made Alrik and his cult of templars red lyrium addicts - they were cruel and mad enough, that this could have worked with little effort. Or the templar/mage brotherhood, founded by Grace and Thrask. It would at least have explained, why they would attack someone, who is basically on their side, since they attack even a mage friendly Hawke, who sided with Orsino at the beginning of act 3. Meredith had a lot of anger and issues even without the lyrium - it was overkill imo.

Maybe they planned Meredith that way from the beginning, but they most certainly didn't plan Orsino as a bossfight (I knowthat he was not part of the start thread, but Orsinos transformation bothered me far more than Meredith )


  • springacres aime ceci

#10
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 314 messages

Gaider talked about DA2 initially having ended on the Qunari uprising. Then they thought the game would be too short, so it seems the whole Act 3 was the later addition to the plot. Which shows, since it's the most rushed act with a lot of loose ends, plot holes and shoehorned decisions.


Sure, but the mage/templar conflict already was set up in Act I.

How would they just forget about that and end everything with the Qunari invasion?

#11
vbibbi

vbibbi
  • Members
  • 2 085 messages

I think unfortunately Meredith was always going to go coo coo for cocoa puffs by the end. Bioware isn't able to have an end boss which isn't superpowered by magic. It does lessen the plot and character of Meredith to have her villainy a direct result of red lyrium rather than just her snapping and ordering the Rite of Annulment. But Bioware didn't think the final battle would be epic enough without statues coming to life and Meredith jumping straight into the sky.

 

I think there could have been a better way to keep the red lyrium subplot to carry over into DAI without it being the derailment of Meredith as a character.


  • DeathScepter, springacres et straykat aiment ceci

#12
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 314 messages

I think unfortunately Meredith was always going to go coo coo for cocoa puffs by the end. Bioware isn't able to have an end boss which isn't superpowered by magic. It does lessen the plot and character of Meredith to have her villainy a direct result of red lyrium rather than just her snapping and ordering the Rite of Annulment. But Bioware didn't think the final battle would be epic enough without statues coming to life and Meredith jumping straight into the sky.

I think there could have been a better way to keep the red lyrium subplot to carry over into DAI without it being the derailment of Meredith as a character.


Meredith's villainy is a direct result of having her family slaughtered by her own sister, who had turned into an abomination.

#13
renfrees

renfrees
  • Members
  • 2 060 messages

Sure, but the mage/templar conflict already was set up in Act I.

How would they just forget about that and end everything with the Qunari invasion?

Perhaps it was supposed to carry over onto  the DLC, expansion or the next game, who knows? I'm sure the whole conflict was meant to come to a boiling point from the beginning, but maybe "not like this".



#14
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages

 

Very interesting. You make a good argument. So do you think the Meredith w/red lyrium angle with her suddenly hopping around, statues coming to life, etc. was also planned from the beginning? If so, then that's rather disappointing of the writers...



#15
straykat

straykat
  • Members
  • 9 196 messages

Meredith's villainy is a direct result of having her family slaughtered by her own sister, who had turned into an abomination.

 

It's not just that. She's still crazy even if you agree with her on every point.

 

 

You guys expecting too much though. All of their stories are about ancient things haunting the present. I swear, they must have some required powerpoint presentation or meetings where this stuff is churned out. Any writer who tries something is different probably gets a manager hovering over them, instructing how to flip burgers the "Bioware way".

 

I agree it sucks though.


  • vbibbi et DeathScepter aiment ceci

#16
Fylimar

Fylimar
  • Members
  • 350 messages

As a Lovecraft fan, I have no problem with ancient things/being, haunting people. But Lovecraft makes it more realistic and believable.


  • DeathScepter aime ceci

#17
Dabrikishaw

Dabrikishaw
  • Members
  • 3 234 messages

Meredith and Orsino turning on you and becoming boss fights regardless of mage/Templat alignment still bothers me and feels like the result of rushed development.

 

Meredith specifically using red lyrium like that in her boss fight? I have zero issue with and believe was planned out.



#18
KCMeredith

KCMeredith
  • Members
  • 841 messages

Meredith and Orsino turning on ande becoming boss fights regardless of mage/Templat alignment still bothers me and feels like the result of rushed development.

 

Meredith specifically using red lyrium like that in her boss fight? I have zero issue with and believe was planned out.

 

 

Agreed, I killed Anders and fought with Meredith against Orsino...and she still wants my head? Even with the whole red lyrium angle it just seems stupid. Never seen the mage ending so no idea why Orsino would turn on you, would bet its because of blood magic though. 

 

I feel like they made the ending that way as to not "offend" anyone by telling them "You made the wrong call". Could be wrong but it really feels like you can't win either way, you can't really lose either. (Except for me, killing Meredith is like stabbing myself in the heart with a dagger  :mellow: )



#19
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 314 messages

A
Never seen the mage ending so no idea why Orsino would turn on you, would bet its because of blood magic though. 


It's completely random, yes.

#20
straykat

straykat
  • Members
  • 9 196 messages

As a Lovecraft fan, I have no problem with ancient things/being, haunting people. But Lovecraft makes it more realistic and believable.

 

I'm talking more of a high fantasy formula. But that's the last thing you could accuse Lovecraft of. Also, Lovecraft's ancient threats were more alien and unknowable.. like a complete mindfuck that drove you insane just knowing it existed. lol

 

In DA2's case though, there's no "Dark Lord" unleashing this ancient evil.. so that's good! And Hawke isn't a Chosen One. And they weren't saving the world. Three of the main things on the high fantasy checklist. Sadly, DAI reverted back to that.



#21
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10 971 messages

Meredith didn't need the red lyrium idol to go insane, but she did need the red lyrium idol to serve as a final boss fight.



#22
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages

Meredith didn't need the red lyrium idol to go insane, but she did need the red lyrium idol to serve as a final boss fight.

Did she though? You can have a boss fight against Samson in DA:I for example after specifically destroying his red lyrium armor. Sure, Meredith without red lyrium wouldn't be as flashy without the glowing red eyes, jumping 30 feet in the air, moving statues, etc. That's not necessarily a bad thing though. Do final boss fights have to be that cheesy?