149 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Still, there's 2 point's that give me pause in regard to that:
 
1) don't think that's the best endorsement of the Crucible plan, given that all the endings involve superceding the Reapers' completely, Synthesis in particular being something the Catalyst cites as desirable but is unable to perform.

Sounds like a good endorsement of the Crucible plan, actually, since it pulls a trigger and ends the Reapers without giving them a chance to respond.

Unable to force. Not unable to perform.
 

2) We have demonstrated that we have no trouble adapting Reaper technology in our own ways. I could see Leviathans providing a live opportunity to study Indoctrination. All assuming a different version of ME3 and/or 2.

Sure, we could rewrite indoctrination up and down all over the place if we wanted to. Hell, we could write indoctrination out of the universe altogether, have Saren be a willing participant in their agenda and make him a vastly more interesting villain. That ain't what we're working with, though.

[dreamgazer]

After Sovereign's defeat in 1 and Harbinger's utter ineptitude in 2-Arrival, I'd totally accept the scenario where the Reapers are essentially bluffing about their intellect and have been napping for the vast majority of their existence. The plot of every Mass Effect is essentially defined by a scenario that the Reapers never completely accounted for. Any combination of Cipher + Prothean tech + Reaper baby bits + Collector DNA could be used as a decent explanation.

That's not intellect. That's simple tech refinement and redundancies, to which they have nothing but time to patch up. Hell, just think about how quickly our personal computers and the applicable programs update, shut down, and restart today. There's a difference between those scenarios and allowing a situation where the Reapers let some less-advanced organic civilization just fly into their bodies (vast numbers that "darken the sky of every world") and take care of business.

[RoboticWater]

That's not intellect. That's simple tech refinement and redundancies, to which they have nothing but time to patch up. Hell, just think about how quickly our personal computers and the applicable programs update, shut down, and restart today. There's a difference between those scenarios and allowing a situation where the Reapers let some less-advanced organic civilization just fly into their bodies (vast numbers that "darken the sky of every world") and take care of business.

I just get the impression that the Reapers don't do very much in their off time. They look exactly the same as they did in the Prothean flash backs, and I'd totally believe an explanation that the Reapers are "too arrogant to think they need an upgrade." Besides, that could be bypassed with: "Reaper baby bits have newest firmware," or something.

 

I also, always liked the thought that Harbinger would intentionally let Shepard close or inside himself so that he could torture/interrogate/experiment upon/etc. him. Harbinger is clearly infatuated with Shepard and humans and clearly arrogant enough to let that sort of thing happen.

[Natureguy85]

What you actually asked was "how is this worse," of course. If you want to fight this out on the basis that this idea is actually better, I'd have to see a detailed proposal before attempting to assign a silliness level. How did we get aboard in the first place; how come we can do it when the other cycles couldn't? Why are we putting soldiers aboard rather than one suicide bomber with a suitcase nuke? (I guess we can handwave that one since it isn't much worse than ME2's ending.) Why is killing Harbinger any more important than, say, killing Hackett?

 

How to get aboard: Obviously a small thermal exhaust port.

 

Why can we do what other cycles couldn't: Other cycles couldn't finish the Crucible either. Other cycles didn't get a lot of what this one did.

 

A soldier has to place the nuke. That's the sort of "suicide mission" I mentioned.

 

Now the question of why Harbinger is important is a good one that would require other changes. Had I been on the writing team, the Reapers wouldn't have been so unbeatable. They'd be stronger, but it would be a fight. Destroying Harbinger would be like taking out the Geth Dreadnaught, turning the tide of the battle. I know, I know; change one thing, change another, where do we stop?

 

Because it is sillier. Codex conveys that rapid indoctrination is a thing.  Very first mission of the trilogy shows what live Reapers can do even from a distance and over a short time period.  Arrival emphasizes that the Reapers can straight-up debilitate their foes in close proximity of their live technology. Leviathan emphasizes that measures must be taken to shield even a small piece of a Reaper.  And the idea is to have Shepard and crew proceed directly through a Reaper body just fine in service of some conventional destruction method? 

 

Sorry, but yeah, I'll take an overload wave, a digital upload in the vein of the virtual aliens, and some (optional) crazy particle neurophysics that use the mass relays at the very end over that any day. 

 

The codex also says Rapid indoctrination causes decay in "days or weeks." What does the first mission show about Indoctrination? All I remember is that they heard a noise in their heads. Arrival shows what an Artifact does and no Reaper shows that ability. There's no reason they couldn't have it, but they just as easily could not have it.

 

Don't discount the "pride cometh before the fall" idea. While they have time to create contingency plans, they have no reason to do so. They purposefully set everything up in their favor. They had no real contingency for being blocked from entering through the Citadel relay. They had to FTL in. The Reapers think they know how events will play out. Remember in ME2 when they posited that the Collectors didn't detect the Normandy because they had no external sensors because they didn't expect to need them? It would be just like that.

 

The in-universe mechanics of the three ending options weren't the real problem with the ending.

 

Not in a way that the Reapers haven't thought of across a billion years.

 

There's no evidence they do much thinking. They have a plan that works every time. They already think they are the pinnacle of existence. Their cycle not working as planned is "beyond their comprehension."

[AlanC9]

How to get aboard: Obviously a small thermal exhaust port.

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of how we get him to hold still and let us do it. But, yeah, soluble at no higher stupidity level than what we got.

Why can we do what other cycles couldn't: Other cycles couldn't finish the Crucible either. Other cycles didn't get a lot of what this one did.

Yeah, but the Crucible is a big, elaborate project; other cycles had a worse time with the Reaper war and couldn't do it because they didn't have the prothean scientists running interference for them. Flying up to a Reaper and boarding it is... flying up to a Reaper and boarding it. Why couldn't any cycle with spaceships do it? Your plan, your handwave.

[ziyon conqueror]

I'm gonna miss the fact that I can't tear him apart like I did Sovereign and the Human-Reaper.

[Natureguy85]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of how we get him to hold still and let us do it. But, yeah, soluble at no higher stupidity level than what we got.

Yeah, but the Crucible is a big, elaborate project; other cycles had a worse time with the Reaper war and couldn't do it because they didn't have the prothean scientists running interference for them. Flying up to a Reaper and boarding it is... flying up to a Reaper and boarding it. Why couldn't any cycle with spaceships do it? Your plan, your handwave.

 

It was a Star Wars reference, though I'll also point to how we got onto the Collector Cruiser lol.

 

That's a fair question. My best answer at the moment is that the other cycles had no reason to. They didn't have as much chance to understand what the Reapers were. They were hit and crippled immediately and each system had to fight on it's own. They didn't have the massive fleet this cycle does.

[RoboticWater]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of how we get him to hold still and let us do it. But, yeah, soluble at no higher stupidity level than what we got.

Yeah, but the Crucible is a big, elaborate project; other cycles had a worse time with the Reaper war and couldn't do it because they didn't have the prothean scientists running interference for them. Flying up to a Reaper and boarding it is... flying up to a Reaper and boarding it. Why couldn't any cycle with spaceships do it? Your plan, your handwave.

As I said: arrogance and infatuation. I think it would have been nice if the Reapers attacked Earth first over the more tactically beneficial Citadel because their pride had been tarnished so many times by human beings. I also think Harbinger would have jumped at the chance to pick Shepard's brain and assimilate him/her personally. There's our in right there.

 

Differentiating factors that this cycle has: 2 years dead Reaper, knowledge that the Keepers are Reaper pawns and potential research into their networking, Reaper baby, and mental link from Shepard->cipher->Prothean->Collector->Harbinger (this one's a bit weak, but why not?). I'll take a bit techno babble any day over what we got. At the very least BIoWare could've made it seem like we engineered our own destiny.

[Lady Artifice]

Yeah...

 

When you find out that the big bad Harbinger is taking orders from the Star-Brat his intimidation factor kind goes out the window. 

 

They're all taking orders from Star brat, though. Even Sovereign, who has half the fan base mooning over him. 

 

I only put it that way because I'm a little resentful more of them aren't mooning over Harbinger instead.  

[CYRAX470]

Yeah...
 
When you find out that the big bad Harbinger is taking orders from the Star-Brat his intimidation factor kind goes out the window.

This is why I love MEHEM and IT.

[Seraphim24]

The thing with Sovereign is that he has that kind of INTJ like mastermind thing going on, where it's not so much that's he's this cackling villain but just kind of ruminating on certain ideas and it makes it sound like it's not really about just blowing things up, it's because sentient lives are finite and the inorganics are infinite and sentience is a quirk. It's like a brooding thing where it's just an inevitable conclusion and you can sort of hear this almost faint wish that things were different and that this is simply case a of inevitably and science and the ultimate nature of things. It makes Sovereign more of a sympathetic experience.

 

On the side of Shep and Co. they're all more in genuine shock and less teen rebellion like "Don't tell me what to do!" It's more like "Holy crap what is this?! Oh my god seriously, well screw that!" Both parties are more interacting with the suddenness and intensity of the experience.

 

ME2 Harbinger turned it into more of a mwahaha I'm invincble just regular mocking you for being futiliy beyond his comprehension or something, and Shep and Co. went all 13 Candles or 14 birthdays or whatever that 80s movie was about the rebellions in the after school detention thingy and going more of the you can't take hold us down thing.

 

Star Child turned it into "You never had any hope at all, hope is an illusion," honestly the teen rebel was better than that.

[Catastrophy]

No.

[CYRAX470]

No.

 

x 150

[In Exile]

The thing with Sovereign is that he has that kind of INTJ like mastermind thing going on, where it's not so much that's he's this cackling villain but just kind of ruminating on certain ideas and it makes it sound like it's not really about just blowing things up, it's because sentient lives are finite and the inorganics are infinite and sentience is a quirk. It's like a brooding thing where it's just an inevitable conclusion and you can sort of hear this almost faint wish that things were different and that this is simply case a of inevitably and science and the ultimate nature of things. It makes Sovereign more of a sympathetic experience.

 

On the side of Shep and Co. they're all more in genuine shock and less teen rebellion like "Don't tell me what to do!" It's more like "Holy crap what is this?! Oh my god seriously, well screw that!" Both parties are more interacting with the suddenness and intensity of the experience.

 

ME2 Harbinger turned it into more of a mwahaha I'm invincble just regular mocking you for being futiliy beyond his comprehension or something, and Shep and Co. went all 13 Candles or 14 birthdays or whatever that 80s movie was about the rebellions in the after school detention thingy and going more of the you can't take hold us down thing.

 

Star Child turned it into "You never had any hope at all, hope is an illusion," honestly the teen rebel was better than that.

 

I don't know what game you played, but in ME1, Sovereign was a cackling bond villain. It literally gives you the bond villain speech, spewing nothing but total nonsense, and Shepard doesn't even take it seriously. In-game, Shepard isn't intimidated. Shep just spews a one liner "You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!" 

 

Sovereign is a joke. Like Harbinger. Just a different kind of joke. 

[Il Divo]

^It's tough, because as much as I enjoyed Sovereign's dialogue/voice-acting, the scene should never have occurred in the first place. People often talk about the ME1 Reapers like they're portrayed as unknowable Cthulhu-esque entities, but their first act when we confront them is to essentially heckle us about how we're all going to die and have no hope.  

[Display Name Owner]

Sovereign's speech has its own issues, but yeah, it's light years ahead of "I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS".

Sovereign > Rannoch Reaper > Harbinger. Hell, ME3 even confirms Harbinger's a little wuss who whines about Shepard after ME2.

 

Now I'm no Harbinger fan, but putting him below Rannoch Reaper is just harsh. The whole talk with the Rannoch Reaper felt like an attempt to be profound which I'm sorry to say just ended up being a really ineloquent version of what we'd already heard Sovereign and Harbinger say like 3 times beforehand.

[Quarian Master Race]

I like that guy. He had reasonable positions on who were the Master and Lesser Races.
 

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

 

“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”

 

“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

 

“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”

 

“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”

 

“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”

 

“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”

 

“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Of course the Mary Sues and Marty Stus with their genetic diversity have the nicest assessment, but we were totally considered to be turned into a giant slushie while everyone else on the list was deemed inferior! I don't know how immune systems, lifespans and sterilization have anything to do with killing people to make an organic slushie but who cares!

If it weren't for the useless "annoyance" that are the toasters and their inadvertent meddling in our immunological evolution, ME2 could have been about working for the Illusive Xen and Quarianberus, investigating attacks on quarian colonies by Collectors attempting to make a glorious three eyed retarded looking quarian Schwarzenegger Reaper because reasons.

Thanks again for ruining everything you flashlight headed shitbirds.

[Natureguy85]

They're all taking orders from Star brat, though. Even Sovereign, who has half the fan base mooning over him. 

 

I only put it that way because I'm a little resentful more of them aren't mooning over Harbinger instead.  

 

Why? Harbinger sucks. You are right that Star-brat ruins Sovereign as well, I view him as he was in ME1, before Star-brat was ever a thought.

 

 

I don't know what game you played, but in ME1, Sovereign was a cackling bond villain. It literally gives you the bond villain speech, spewing nothing but total nonsense, and Shepard doesn't even take it seriously. In-game, Shepard isn't intimidated. Shep just spews a one liner "You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!" 

 

Sovereign is a joke. Like Harbinger. Just a different kind of joke. 

 

I know you don't care for Sovereign, but you are wrong on one point which makes a difference for me; Sovereign wasn't cackling. He wasn't saying "I have you now" like a Bond villain would be, having the Hero at his mercy and failing to do the job. There was only contempt and I really liked that. You're right that Shepard wasn't intimidated, but he didn't know what he was dealing with either. It certainly seemed too over the top to possibly be true.

[AlanC9]

 
Star Child turned it into "You never had any hope at all, hope is an illusion," honestly the teen rebel was better than that.

Well, except, of course, that he tells you the opposite of that, and he's telling you the truth when he says it.

[AlanC9]

Now I'm no Harbinger fan, but putting him below Rannoch Reaper is just harsh. The whole talk with the Rannoch Reaper felt like an attempt to be profound which I'm sorry to say just ended up being a really ineloquent version of what we'd already heard Sovereign and Harbinger say like 3 times beforehand.

I agree, but it was a really tough challenge, since they were trying to both be profound and tell us nothing.

[o Ventus]

The Harbinger love always confuses me. He nonsensically taunts you by proxy for all of 2, then becomes a cutscene turret in 3. He never actually does anything interesting.

 

Sure there was potential, a deep voiced intimidating space cuttlefish could make a great villain, but they never delivered. 

 

For me personally, he's the best-looking Reaper, and Keith Szarabajka's (however the f*** you pronounce that last name) voice is pretty great.

[Navasha]

Not really.   The mystery of the Reapers was explained and with it went away a lot of their impressiveness.    I have no desire to ever see reapers again now. 

[DeathScepter]

yes I do miss that Reaper and Soverigan

[Lady Artifice]

Why? Harbinger sucks. You are right that Star-brat ruins Sovereign as well, I view him as he was in ME1, before Star-brat was ever a thought.

 

His voice, mostly. 

 

He also spooked me out when he entered combat and monologued distractingly. I like spooky stuff. 

[In Exile]

I know you don't care for Sovereign, but you are wrong on one point which makes a difference for me; Sovereign wasn't cackling. He wasn't saying "I have you now" like a Bond villain would be, having the Hero at his mercy and failing to do the job. There was only contempt and I really liked that. You're right that Shepard wasn't intimidated, but he didn't know what he was dealing with either. It certainly seemed too over the top to possibly be true.

That's literally what he said, though. He said he has all of us, because "we exist because [they] allow it." You don't get more Bond Villain than that one. He saw us as being at his mercy, and was gloating (and using complete nonsense to gloat, too). 

 

It wasn't contempt. I don't shake my fist at ants and yell at them that I'm "beyond their comprehension".