63 réponses à ce sujet

[Qis]

Long before Inquisition even was announced, and after I saw how DA2 ended and how people reacted to the game, I knew this about Hawke. First, Hawke was never our character. She (my Hawke is female also) is BioWare's character. And even more twisted than that, she's essentially Varric's character too since he's the one telling us the events of the game and DLCs, and though I trust the game to be accurate in general, Varric is also free to take certain liberties with each story. Like if you beat Legacy after Leandra died, and her "spirit" talks to Hawke. We all know that didn't happen. So Hawke is to DA2 what Leliana is to Leliana's Song.

 

Second, based on all of Hawke's story as well as what other players complained about, I concluded that ultimately Hawke had little to no control over how things played out. She did fail in many ways. Failed to keep her sibling safe while escaping Lothering. Failed to get in to Kirkwall on her own without doing shady work. Failed to keep her other sibling with the family after the expedition. Failed to protect her mother. Failed to prevent the Qunari takeover (yes, she can kill the Arishok, but only because he agrees to a duel that results in the other Qunari just walking away). Failed to stop Anders. Failed to prevent the clash between mages and templars. Got played by Tallis. Failed to stop Corypheus. And all of her victories were pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. For the most part, Hawke is one who is defined by failure. She couldn't even remain as Viscountess for very long.

 

Third, lo and behold in Inquisition the Nightmare confirms Hawke's fear is that she didn't do anything that really mattered, and that she was a failure.

 

This is partly the reason why I chose to make my Hawke a female rogue. It is easier to sympathize with a female who fails than it is for a male who fails. Also, rogues are typically the weaker class.

 

I agree with you except the last part...what gender have to with anything?

 

No matter how the game want portray Hawke as a hero, it failed, i never see Hawke is a hero..it is funny though, in DA2 Cassandra make it like Hawke can stop something big that happen, in DA:I Cassandra got mad because Varric lie in which making she cannot find Hawke, she still believe that Hawke could make a big difference,  Hawke herself contribute only little in DA:I...

[cindercatz]

Choir Boy's prince of Starkhaven. He needs heirs.

 

(And "chaste" doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means. It doesn't mean "celibate forever", but rather "only having sex with the appropriate person at the appropriate times and for the single appropriate reason of having children".)

Not even that really. Typically it just means 'when spoken for', and then in socially approved style when taken to extremes or in other context. So, only in marriage, or in religious context, it can practically mean celibacy, because the person has dedicated themselves to God as in metaphorically waiting for marriage, as in spoken for by God. Chastity refers to dedication.

 

side edit: Chastity belts are one of those horrible abominations humanity has come up with from time to time. It's essentially a metal panty that doubles as a torture device for any potential comers, if you've ever seen one. Featured a lock and a key the groom would carry. Oddly, you can put Zevran in one in DA:O with the Feastday dlc. Definitely worthy of the minus 50 approval. lol

[Dai Grepher]

I agree with you except the last part...what gender have to with anything?

 

No matter how the game want portray Hawke as a hero, it failed, i never see Hawke is a hero..it is funny though, in DA2 Cassandra make it like Hawke can stop something big that happen, in DA:I Cassandra got mad because Varric lie in which making she cannot find Hawke, she still believe that Hawke could make a big difference,  Hawke herself contribute only little in DA:I...

 

Just that typically people will feel sympathy or compassion for a female rather than a male in cases of failure or tragedy. Not sure what it is, but that seems to be the case in my opinion. People are more understanding or emotionally considerate with a woman, especially if she's pretty. Maybe it's a guy thing. Maybe us guys want to cozy up to said females, or maybe we just instinctively feel like women in those situations need emotional support. But I know for certain that we don't care about men that way. If a guy fails or is the victim of something, usually our response is, "That sucks bro". Or if a guy fails at something, we just dismiss him because, well... he's a loser. No one cares.

 

Well, I feel the same about Hawke. A female Hawke I can feel some sympathy for. I admire her character despite her failures, and can feel some things for the character because of what she went through. A male Hawke on the other hand just seems like a scrub to me. And part of this could also be the personality presented in the voice acting, but mainly I think the F!Hawke is better because I can respect her more for trying and enduring. That failure of an M!Hawke? He's a punk, and I don't give a damn about him.

[Qis]

Really? I feel sympathy if guys failed...it is because a guy must feel like want to be always success in life, must always win because "i am a man!", "who's the man?who's the man?You're the man!", "yes, i am the man!" thing....a man must be strong, must be tough, to show to the world that they are men...second to none..."because i did it mmyyyyyyy wwaaaayyyyyy!!!!!".....so if failed surely the feeling will be so sucked and sad...an epic fail...i feel more sympathy toward men...

 

 

"For what is a man, what has he got
If not himself, then he has naught
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way

Yes, it was my way!"

[correctamundo]

Ooooooooooooooooh...those sideburns =)

[Dai Grepher]

I don't, for the reasons you wrote. He's supposed to win. If he doesn't win then why should I care? He's just supposed to man up and move on.

[Qis]

He try his best with everything he got, if failed then he will create sympathy. Unless he's a loser from the begining.....but i could sympathy for that too...

[Dai Grepher]

Okay, fair enough. But let me ask you this. Who do you sympathize with more; a female in Hawke's situation, or a male in Hawke's situation?

[Qis]

Truly i don't sympathize with both, because there is nothing that make me want to give my sympathy toward Hawke.

 

Hawke stick his/her nose to places he/she shouldn't be. Hawke shouldn't get involved in anything, his/her involvement that makes things worse. Hawke should just find a better job in Kirkwall than busy body with everyone affairs. If i am Hawke, i will not get involved in matters don't concern me, told Carver to shut up and find a job, or told Bethany to stay at home, take care mom and don't ever casting any magic.

 

Really, the game failed to establish a reason why should i be sympathy toward this guy/girl who is a troublemaker

[nightscrawl]

^ Hey, it's not Hawke's fault, they were just trying to complete all those quests in the journal.

[Qis]

It should be an open world where Hawke have more freedom.......

[Fearsome1]

So I've heard from a lot of people that their very upset with how Hawke was portrayed in the game. I've come to a realization that has helped me understand some of it. And it all sums up to this:

 

Hawke feels like a failure.

 

Yup, I think they do (my Hawke was a girl so I'll be using the she pronoun) in the years following DA2 Hawke made the choice to go on the run because the Chantry knew she killed Meredith and Orsino, but didn't know why. So Hawke watched as southern Thedas erupted into a civil war. She feels responsible, she couldn't stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry but feels like she should've picked up on the signs. 

 

A humorous Hawke would wonder if they weren't such a wise ass could things have actually been done to prevent all this? A diplomatic would wonder why after all the hand holding wasn't it enough? And an aggressive would get more angry, especially at them self. After all they did for Kirkwall, for the people, for Anders what went wrong? What did I do wrong?

 

These are the questions they'd ask themselves, and to make matters worse then Corypheus shows up. How is it possible? I killed him. I did. I made sure he was dead. And yet now he's put a hole in the sky and tearing the Veil apart. In Hawke's eyes she failed, she did something wrong and now the whole world is paying for it. It's eating away at her.

 

That is my understanding of some of what Hawke is feeling during the events of Inquisition. At least partly why they may not exactly be the Hawke as you remember them. The 3-4 years on the run have been very hard on them clearly, and the fear and anger have festered in that time. Maybe you agree, maybe not. I'd love to hear what you think.

 

 

That only works for certain Hawkes.

 

What about those that were pro-Anders or wanted the Mage-Templar war? Or even just those Hawkes that were only interested in looking after themselves and didn't care about it. Hawke has no reason to blame herself for what happened, she isn't responsible for other peoples actions - she had no control over mages or templars.

 

It doesn't explain why Hawke speaks about how terrible blood magic is, when she can be pro-blood magic in DA2, or even be a blood mage herself.

 

I fall somewhere in the middle of these two posters. The mindset of Hawke expressed by the first person seems logical, but I also agree that a blood mage Hawke was left entirely on the cutting room by Bioware; limiting gamer choice (which they often claim to support)?

[Dai Grepher]

Truly i don't sympathize with both, because there is nothing that make me want to give my sympathy toward Hawke.

 

Hawke stick his/her nose to places he/she shouldn't be. Hawke shouldn't get involved in anything, his/her involvement that makes things worse. Hawke should just find a better job in Kirkwall than busy body with everyone affairs. If i am Hawke, i will not get involved in matters don't concern me, told Carver to shut up and find a job, or told Bethany to stay at home, take care mom and don't ever casting any magic.

 

Really, the game failed to establish a reason why should i be sympathy toward this guy/girl who is a troublemaker

 

 *Sigh* Okay, then just males and females in general: which do you find it easier to sympathize with, or which do you feel more sympathy or compassion for?
 

[Abyss108]

Why would you ever base your sympathy on what sex someone is? That's so messed up. 

[Ghost Gal]

Hawke IS a failure.

 

I agree with you except the last part...what gender have to with anything?

 

No matter how the game want portray Hawke as a hero, it failed, i never see Hawke is a hero..it is funny though, in DA2 Cassandra make it like Hawke can stop something big that happen, in DA:I Cassandra got mad because Varric lie in which making she cannot find Hawke, she still believe that Hawke could make a big difference,  Hawke herself contribute only little in DA:I...

 

Yeah... I find it off that most of Varric's story consisted of "Hawke tried to do X, but it failed / backfired" or "Hawke tried to solve X but accidentally made it worse instead / in the long run," yet Cassandra is all starry-eyed at the end of the story, praises Hawke for being this magnanimous hero, and then in DAI she keeps going on and on about how "If Hawke had been there, s/he could have prevented this!"

 

And I'm like, "Didn't you actually listen to Varric's story? Hawke couldn't prevent **** from happening to anyone."

 

The only two things s/he managed to succeed in: 1) get rich from the Deep Roads to move to Hightown, 2) stop the Qunari invasion. But both of those just made things worse in the long run. The Deep Roads trip caused Hawke to help find the red lyium idol, bring it to the surface, and into Meredith's hands (which added fuel to the Mage/Templar fire). Stopping the Qunari but doing nothing else after that left a power vacuum for Meredith to fill, which added more fuel to the Mage Templar fire, which eventually caused it to spiral into open war, which Hawke failed to stop when they picked a side at the end.

 

I find Hawke to have the most jarring case of Informed Ability, where everyone constantly talks about Hawke as this big competent hero who can accomplish anything, even though what we're shown is that Hawke is a screw up at best, a failure at worst. If anything, Hawke's constant self-effacing in DAI and the Nightmare Demon's "reason you suck speech" are the only characters who speak of Hawke's accomplishments as they are.

[Arakat]

It's true that Hawke changing their opinion about blood magic because of the traumatic events makes sense. But the thing is, DA2 allowed you to play Hawke as a homicidal blood mage who makes deals with demons and owns a slave. I know this because I played one*. That kind of Hawke suddenly preaching about the dangers of blood magic is comical, to say the least. Although I guess he/she could do that just for the lulz.

 

*for science!

[Dai Grepher]

Why would you ever base your sympathy on what sex someone is? That's so messed up. 

 

Because of societal expectations. Men are expected to deal with adversity on their own. So sympathy for them is never required. Women are more emotionally geared. So showing compassion for them during times of hardship seems proper.

[RoseLawliet]

It's true that Hawke changing their opinion about blood magic because of the traumatic events makes sense. But the thing is, DA2 allowed you to play Hawke as a homicidal blood mage who makes deals with demons and owns a slave. I know this because I played one*. That kind of Hawke suddenly preaching about the dangers of blood magic is comical, to say the least. Although I guess he/she could do that just for the lulz.

 

*for science!

 

Nah, that Hawke is just bragging. "Look at all the awful things blood magic can do. Notice how none of it happened to me."

 

I wish I could bring myself to do some of the choices for science! However, I am a weak person who grew attached to some of the characters and would rather they not hate me. Sadness.

[Qis]

 *Sigh* Okay, then just males and females in general: which do you find it easier to sympathize with, or which do you feel more sympathy or compassion for?
 

 

I am more sympathize men than women, women failing is not news, men failing is an issue. Men are build to always success in what they do, so failing surely give more emotional and psychological effect toward men isn't it? You can't fail, if you failed you are not men anymore, you are women...

 

Men cannot get beaten by women for example...if you got beaten by women the shame you carry will be great, so i feel sympathy toward men...

[Dai Grepher]

I am more sympathize men than women, women failing is not news, men failing is an issue. Men are build to always success in what they do, so failing surely give more emotional and psychological effect toward men isn't it? You can't fail, if you failed you are not men anymore, you are women...

 

Men cannot get beaten by women for example...if you got beaten by women the shame you carry will be great, so i feel sympathy toward men...

 

And you're sure you're not mistaking that for disappointment or disgust? Men failing is an issue, or more accurately, a problem.

 

I'm sure failing does impact males more greatly, but that doesn't mean we get emotional about it. We just suck it up and move on. We shouldn't need to be consoled.

 

Um... no I don't think failure makes a man a woman. Many people fail all the time. The lesson is just to never give up.

 

Okay, but why might a man feel shame at being beaten by a woman? Because he is expected to be better, and his loss makes it so others see him in a negative light. Well, he's also expected to be tougher, and that means people shouldn't feel sorry for him. He should just man up. That's my point. This is why I can't see playing a male Hawke as fun. He just comes off as a loser and a whiner.

 

Female Hawke: It wears on you, everyone looking to you for all the answers.

 

Me:  Aww, that poor woman. She gave her all and lost so much. The whole world is being so cruel to her.

 

Male Hawke: It wears on you, everyone looking to you for all the answers.

 

Me: Quit your bellyaching.
 

[GoldenGail3]

Oh course, Hawke's life goal was to be a loser  . 

[Abyss108]

Because of societal expectations. Men are expected to deal with adversity on their own. So sympathy for them is never required. Women are more emotionally geared. So showing compassion for them during times of hardship seems proper.

 

I'm well aware there's an idiotic societal expectation of this, but we are not slaves to whatever society tells us we should feel. If that was the case, society would never improve.

 

I know I've certainly had double standards on various issues like this in the past, but I've always done my best to distance myself from it once I've realised that the case. It's weird to see someone admit there is a double standard and then just keep on going with it.

[Qis]

 

Female Hawke: It wears on you, everyone looking to you for all the answers.

 

Me:  Aww, that poor woman. She gave her all and lost so much. The whole world is being so cruel to her.

 

Male Hawke: It wears on you, everyone looking to you for all the answers.

 

Me: Quit your bellyaching.
 

 

Is that how you put your sympathy on people? Just because a woman failed you give all your sympathy and support on her, no wonder why men drinking so much and become mental...i give my sympathy to men....

[TK514]

My Hawke didn't feel like a failure at all.  Maybe because I don't hold people responsible for random events.

[nightscrawl]

My Hawke didn't feel like a failure at all.  Maybe because I don't hold people responsible for random events.

 

This is pretty much how I feel.

 

Getting trapped in the Deep Roads: beyond Hawke's control. Even Varric was surprised by the betrayal of his own brother.

Sibling getting the Blight: beyond Hawke's control -- I always take the sibling because they want to go, and they're an adult and can make their own decisions.

OR

Bethany getting taken by the templars: beyond Hawke's control. There was always a danger of this happening, which was partly the reason for the trip in the first place.

BUT the Deep Roads mission was, for the most part, a resounding success; Hawke and co. made a ton of money and were able to improve their lives because of it.

 

All the stuff with the Arishok: beyond Hawke's control, even though they tried to keep it from boiling over. It was bound to happen eventually, and Hawke does eventually resolve the issue.

Leandra: beyond Hawke's control: again, an adult woman who is responsible for her own self. I bet there are many players who saw the white lilies and remembered instantly, but learning about them only comes when you pick a certain dialogue option with Ghyslain. And don't forget, this was three years prior, so I think it's reasonable that Hawke might not remember their significance.

 

Everything with mages and templars: beyond Hawke's control. For almost every single incident of this type that Hawke is involved with, with all they can do is to try to make that situation have the best outcome possible, and to mitigate whatever damage has already been done. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.

Grace: even if Hawke finagles it so that Grace and co. are free, they can't control the fact that the templars eventually caught them.

Feynriel: even if he is sent to the Dalish he still has dreams, which are beyond Hawke's control.

Keran: you actually save Keran and can enable the best result for him (remaining with the templars) if you pick the right options. Everything else, the deaths, etc, are beyond Hawke's control.

On the loose (find three apostates): 2/3 of these are already lost; one is a full on abomination, and the other is an insane blood mage, so again, beyond Hawke's control. The third is just an idiot, and Hawke can choose whatever outcome they think is best.

Doing Anders's bidding: well, he makes the chantry explode even if you refuse, so again, beyond Hawke's control.

Orsino: seriously... who could have predicted that... thing? And no, I do NOT count the note to Quentin signed by "O." At that time Hawke had never even met Orsino, so "O" could have been anyone (with an O name).

 

I have never thought Hawke was a failure. To me, the entirely of Dragon Age 2 is about dealing with events that are beyond your control, how you react to them, and so on. And I certainly don't deny that banging your head against an immovable wall is supremely frustrating.

 

Other players are free to interpret their own DA2 plays in any way they wish, and I don't think there is a right or wrong viewpoint. It's based on RP and what you wanted your Hawke to accomplish. Considering that, I think that some Hawkes certainly can feel like a failure. Mine does not, regardless of how emo Bioware made her seem in DAI.