63 réponses à ce sujet

[Qis]

My Hawke didn't feel like a failure at all.  Maybe because I don't hold people responsible for random events.

 

Random?

 

i. Hawke expedition lead to red lyrium

ii. Hawke finding money for the expedition lead to involvement with Qunari, involved with Templar and Mage problems, involvement in Chantry and Qunari problem

iii. Hawke expedition lead to Anders in which lead to the destruction of the Chantry

iv. Hawke involvement with the Qunari lead to the first destruction of Kirkwal, failed in diplomacy

v. Hawke influence in Kirkwal lead to Meredith jealousy and make her crazy, the craziness multiplied by the red lyrium Hawke found in the Deep Road

vi. Hawke ivolve in Corypeus escape lead to the breach

vii. Everything happen in Kirkwal is because Hawke going to Kirkwal

[BraveVesperia]

In regards to the OP (and not whatever this weird tangent is about gender and sympathy...) having some preset mindset for Hawke still only works in some circumstances. Even if Hawke feels like a depressed, miserable failure, why would that make diplomatic and aggressive Hawke act in the exact same way? People's negative emotions vent differently, as do their positive ones.

 

As for Leandra's death changing Hawke's opinion on blood magic... we have a two year time-skip and then a playable Act 3 after this happens. During that time, Hawke's opinion is whatever we want it to be. So why would Hawke's opinion change have a 4-5 year delay before changing?

 

The sudden anti-Warden sentiment didn't make sense to me either. Unless that was supposed to be because of the Wardens making Malcolm use blood magic for the prison. But again, we can play Legacy whenever we like in DA2, so if Hawke's opinion of Wardens changed because of that, it would be seen in-game.

[TK514]

Random?

 

i. Hawke expedition lead to red lyrium

ii. Hawke finding money for the expedition lead to involvement with Qunari, involved with Templar and Mage problems, involvement in Chantry and Qunari problem

iii. Hawke expedition lead to Anders in which lead to the destruction of the Chantry

iv. Hawke involvement with the Qunari lead to the first destruction of Kirkwal, failed in diplomacy

v. Hawke influence in Kirkwal lead to Meredith jealousy and make her crazy, the craziness multiplied by the red lyrium Hawke found in the Deep Road

vi. Hawke ivolve in Corypeus escape lead to the breach

vii. Everything happen in Kirkwal is because Hawke going to Kirkwal

 

1.  The Expedition would have gone, with or without Hawke.  Hawke had no control over finding the red lyrium idol or Bartram's actions afterwards.  Absolutely not Hawke's fault.

 

2.  This doesn't even make any sense.  So what?  Hawke taking odd jobs that brought him into contact with various individuals and organizations does not make him responsible for the actions of those individuals and organizations.

 

3.  Anders was already in town, and would have done his thing with or without Hawke.  In fact, he does his thing just fine without any assistance from Hawke as proven by the fact that you can kick him out of the party in Act 2, leaving him on his own.  Or you can refuse to assist him, also leaving him on his own.  And you can report him to the Templars, with him standing right there, and he still gets away with it.  Hawke is not responsible for Anders being a terrorist, or for Anders' actions, or the Templars being incompetent.

 

4.  The Arishok being completely unable to deal with a society outside the Qun is what led to his actions against Kirkwall, not Hawke's involvement.  However, Hawke's involvement, one way or another, definitely mitigated the overall scale and duration of the Qunari aggression.  So, while only Isabella could have stopped what happened, Hawke definitely prevented it from being worse.

 

5. Proof that at any point Meredith was jealous of Hawke?  What did she have to be jealous about?  Even if the Champion stool against her on certain subjects, she still ruled the city uncontested.  And she was already crazy.  Hawke had nothing to do with that.  Her guilt over what happened to her sister was responsible there.

 

6.  Again, Hawke is not responsible for the actions and motivations of other people.  Nor is Hawke responsible for the completely unforseeable ability of completely unknown entities.  Hawke had two choices:  Defend himself and his sibling or don't.  Both would have eventually led to Corypheus' escape.  The Wardens hold all of the blame for keeping Corypheus and the method they used to imprison him.

 

7.  Factually incorrect.  The Qunari presence in Kirkwall was completely unrelated to Hawke.  Meredith's opinions on mages were completely unrelated to Hawke.  Meredith's untitled rulership of the city, even before the death of Dumar, had nothing to do with Hawke.  The Tethras expedition into the deep roads would have happened without Hawke.  Hawke may have been involved in events, but was not the cause of them.  In almost every case it could, Hawke's involvement prevents bad situations from being worse.

[Dabrikishaw]

It is easier to sympathize with a female who fails than it is for a male who fails. 

Why?

[nightscrawl]

^ Scroll up a bit, it was explained further along in the thread.

[Dabrikishaw]

I went back and read. Thanks.

[Qis]

1.  The Expedition would have gone, with or without Hawke.  Hawke had no control over finding the red lyrium idol or Bartram's actions afterwards.  Absolutely not Hawke's fault.

 

Don't forget that Anders who have the map, it is Hawke who persuade Anders for the map, and by that Hawke involved in Mage-Templar conflict. Without the map, even if Bartrand managed to conduct his expedition, they wouldn't found the red lyrium idol, because they are not going to the same spot.

 

 

2.  This doesn't even make any sense.  So what?  Hawke taking odd jobs that brought him into contact with various individuals and organizations does not make him responsible for the actions of those individuals and organizations.

 

 

Hawke could become a dock worker, join Templar, a hunter or whatever, making a living other than become errand boy/girl for quick money. By this, Hawke wouldn't involved in any stupid conflicts between factions.

 

 

3.  Anders was already in town, and would have done his thing with or without Hawke.  In fact, he does his thing just fine without any assistance from Hawke as proven by the fact that you can kick him out of the party in Act 2, leaving him on his own.  Or you can refuse to assist him, also leaving him on his own.  And you can report him to the Templars, with him standing right there, and he still gets away with it.  Hawke is not responsible for Anders being a terrorist, or for Anders' actions, or the Templars being incompetent.

 

He might just end up being a healer for the rest of his life. Hawke involvement lead him into what he's doing. Without Hawke he might not meet his friend in the Circle, might not loose control because of his friend death. He have less motive to become raged and beserk. It is because of Hawke the spirit of Justice burst out.

 

 

4.  The Arishok being completely unable to deal with a society outside the Qun is what led to his actions against Kirkwall, not Hawke's involvement.  However, Hawke's involvement, one way or another, definitely mitigated the overall scale and duration of the Qunari aggression.  So, while only Isabella could have stopped what happened, Hawke definitely prevented it from being worse.

 

The point where Arishok going amok is the failed diplomacy between Hawke and him at the end of Act 2. Should Hawke is not there, things could turned out differently. Aveline maybe just give up want to pursue those Qunari converts. Aveline thought Hawke could turn the tiding, she make a big mistake....

 

 

6.  Again, Hawke is not responsible for the actions and motivations of other people.  Nor is Hawke responsible for the completely unforseeable ability of completely unknown entities.  Hawke had two choices:  Defend himself and his sibling or don't.  Both would have eventually led to Corypheus' escape.  The Wardens hold all of the blame for keeping Corypheus and the method they used to imprison him.

 

Hawke could just ignore the whole thing from the begining and be a farmer....

 

 

5. Proof that at any point Meredith was jealous of Hawke?  What did she have to be jealous about?  Even if the Champion stool against her on certain subjects, she still ruled the city uncontested.  And she was already crazy.  Hawke had nothing to do with that.  Her guilt over what happened to her sister was responsible there.

 

When discussing about who will lead the attack, Meredith argue that Hawke is not even a Kirkwaller, Meredith also don't allow Hawke to become a Viscount for how many years despite Hawke popularity with the people as being a Champion she declare herself? Look at Meredith eye, face and body contact....

 

 

7.  Factually incorrect.  The Qunari presence in Kirkwall was completely unrelated to Hawke.  Meredith's opinions on mages were completely unrelated to Hawke.  Meredith's untitled rulership of the city, even before the death of Dumar, had nothing to do with Hawke.  The Tethras expedition into the deep roads would have happened without Hawke.  Hawke may have been involved in events, but was not the cause of them.  In almost every case it could, Hawke's involvement prevents bad situations from being worse.

 

Hawke is at the middle of everything that making things turn to out as it is...without Hawke being in the middle of everything, things could turn out differently

[TK514]

Don't forget that Anders who have the map, it is Hawke who persuade Anders for the map, and by that Hawke involved in Mage-Templar conflict. Without the map, even if Bartrand managed to conduct his expedition, they wouldn't found the red lyrium idol, because they are not going to the same spot.

 

 

 

 

Hawke could become a dock worker, join Templar, a hunter or whatever, making a living other than become errand boy/girl for quick money. By this, Hawke wouldn't involved in any stupid conflicts between factions.

 

 

 

He might just end up being a healer for the rest of his life. Hawke involvement lead him into what he's doing. Without Hawke he might not meet his friend in the Circle, might not loose control because of his friend death. He have less motive to become raged and beserk. It is because of Hawke the spirit of Justice burst out.

 

 

 

The point where Arishok going amok is the failed diplomacy between Hawke and him at the end of Act 2. Should Hawke is not there, things could turned out differently. Aveline maybe just give up want to pursue those Qunari converts. Aveline thought Hawke could turn the tiding, she make a big mistake....

 

 

 

Hawke could just ignore the whole thing from the begining and be a farmer....

 

 

 

When discussing about who will lead the attack, Meredith argue that Hawke is not even a Kirkwaller, Meredith also don't allow Hawke to become a Viscount for how many years despite Hawke popularity with the people as being a Champion she declare herself? Look at Meredith eye, face and body contact....

 

 

 

Hawke is at the middle of everything that making things turn to out as it is...without Hawke being in the middle of everything, things could turn out differently

 

1.  It was Varric who knew Anders had the map, and Varric would have likely just found another way to get it.  Like buying it or sending some other group of bodyguards with him to the Chantry.

 

2. Involvement != Cause or Responsibility for the outcomes.

 

3. Anders was already working his pro-Mage agenda, and already working with Karl.  Hawke's presence did nothing to cause or even enable Justice's reaction.  All that, and everything after, would have happened regardless.  The only lasting impression Hawke had on the Mage/Templar war was that he directly rid the world of two monsters, Meredith and Orsino, that could have made things worse.

 

4.  If Hawke had not been there, the Arishok would have still gone to war with Kirkwall, he would have simply been less polite about it.  By the time Aveline and Hawke show up, the Arishok had already made his decision.  That's why he had the (failed) ambush to capture Hawke in place.  There was never a chance that Hawke was going to change the Arishok's mind, because the Arishok was personally incapable of dealing with the chaos of Kirkwall on a fundamental level.

 

6.  Hawke could not have ignored the brainwashed assassins that were combing the world looking for the blood of his father.  This is not a case where he stumbled into a situation and could have kept on walking.  The antagonist was specifically looking for him and his sibling.  Hence there only being two choices, both of which led to Cory's release.  Again, not Hawke's fault.

 

5.  I'm not seeing any proof of jealousy.  Meredith is skeptical and suspicious, as she should be when considering hanging the whole plan on a relative unknown who may not have any loyalty to the city at all.  And Meredith prevents the nobles from voting on any replacement, she isn't targeting Hawke here.  In fact, Hawke can have zero desire to sit in the chair.  At worst Meredith sees the Champion as a threat, but that's not the same as jealousy.  You're grasping at straws.

 

7. Things definitely would have turned out differently without Hawke there to mitigate things.  They would have turned out worse.

[RoseLawliet]

1.  It was Varric who knew Anders had the map, and Varric would have likely just found another way to get it.  Like buying it or sending some other group of bodyguards with him to the Chantry.

 

Did Varric know he had a map? I remember him saying there were rumors going around about a Grey Warden being in Kirkwall, and that's it. You go see a woman in Lowtown who might know more, she directs you to Darktown, and then you meet Anders who asks to make a deal: maps for a favor.

 

Edit: Varric said we need an entrance to the Deep Roads, and a Grey Warden might know about that sort of thing. Also, Bartrand apparently knew where they were going, and could get them there from pretty much any entrance Varric found.

Modifié par RoseLawliet, 19 novembre 2015 - 05:23 .

[TK514]

Did Varric know he had a map? I remember him saying there were rumors going around about a Grey Warden being in Kirkwall, and that's it. You go see a woman in Lowtown who might know more, she directs you to Darktown, and then you meet Anders who asks to make a deal: maps for a favor.

 

Edit: Varric said we need an entrance to the Deep Roads, and a Grey Warden might know about that sort of thing. Also, Bartrand apparently knew where they were going, and could get them there from pretty much any entrance Varric found.

 

Fair enough.  However, ultimately it was still the Tethras brothers that drove the expedition to the Thaig.  Anders made it more convenient, and I'm not convinced that Varric couldn't have found and convinced him to help, even without the Ferelden refugees.  He wasn't just healing Fereldens, after all, and I'm pretty sure there's a mention later on that the Carta or the Coterie knew where he was.

[Qis]

1.  It was Varric who knew Anders had the map, and Varric would have likely just found another way to get it.  Like buying it or sending some other group of bodyguards with him to the Chantry.

 

2. Involvement != Cause or Responsibility for the outcomes.

 

3. Anders was already working his pro-Mage agenda, and already working with Karl.  Hawke's presence did nothing to cause or even enable Justice's reaction.  All that, and everything after, would have happened regardless.  The only lasting impression Hawke had on the Mage/Templar war was that he directly rid the world of two monsters, Meredith and Orsino, that could have made things worse.

 

4.  If Hawke had not been there, the Arishok would have still gone to war with Kirkwall, he would have simply been less polite about it.  By the time Aveline and Hawke show up, the Arishok had already made his decision.  That's why he had the (failed) ambush to capture Hawke in place.  There was never a chance that Hawke was going to change the Arishok's mind, because the Arishok was personally incapable of dealing with the chaos of Kirkwall on a fundamental level.

 

6.  Hawke could not have ignored the brainwashed assassins that were combing the world looking for the blood of his father.  This is not a case where he stumbled into a situation and could have kept on walking.  The antagonist was specifically looking for him and his sibling.  Hence there only being two choices, both of which led to Cory's release.  Again, not Hawke's fault.

 

5.  I'm not seeing any proof of jealousy.  Meredith is skeptical and suspicious, as she should be when considering hanging the whole plan on a relative unknown who may not have any loyalty to the city at all.  And Meredith prevents the nobles from voting on any replacement, she isn't targeting Hawke here.  In fact, Hawke can have zero desire to sit in the chair.  At worst Meredith sees the Champion as a threat, but that's not the same as jealousy.  You're grasping at straws.

 

7. Things definitely would have turned out differently without Hawke there to mitigate things.  They would have turned out worse.

 

i. As above poster said, Varric don't know who have the map or there is a map at all, he only heard rumors about a Grey Warden

 

ii. Hawke involved in things he/she don't supposed to get involved with. Find other job, being a city guard or something

 

iii. Hawke provide protection for Anders, or else Anders get caught by Templars, Karl already a Tranquil

 

iv. Arishok won't do anything, Aveline won't get the converts, it's a stalemate. Because Hawke is there, Arishok feel challenged, and feel want to resolved it there. Hawke failed to persuade otherwise

 

vi. Let the city guard handle it...leave it to the professionals.

 

v. Hawke kill Arishok and defeat Qunari before Meredith get into the brawl, Meredith lost her opportunity to appear a hero. She make Hawke a hero just a convenience, "alright, you are a hero, but don't ever dream of being a Viscount!"

 

vii. Hawke could messed up other cities and not Kirkwall

[Dai Grepher]

I'm well aware there's an idiotic societal expectation of this, but we are not slaves to whatever society tells us we should feel. If that was the case, society would never improve.

 

I know I've certainly had double standards on various issues like this in the past, but I've always done my best to distance myself from it once I've realised that the case. It's weird to see someone admit there is a double standard and then just keep on going with it.

 

Right, we aren't slaves to it, but that's just how most people in society view this.

 

I have no problem with this "double standard". I think it is fitting actually, because I don't really see it as a double standard. I just see it as different standards for different genders based on the different qualities displayed by the different genders. Men should be expected to keep their emotions to themselves and deal with it like men. Whereas a woman showing sadness and sorrow enhances their femininity. It's like crying during a movie. Men should not cry during a movie, except maybe in cases of a war flick with soldiers dying, and even then its questionable. Women are allowed to cry during movies, and it's fine if they do. It's because women are supposed to be tender and soft. Men are supposed to be tough and hardened. That's just how it is and I have no problem with that. I think it should be this way.

 

Where I will agree is how society responds to men in matters of law and equity. If a man is wronged, then he should be justly compensated. He should not be told to "just suck it up" or take the legal injury "like a man". But on matters of emotion, or demanding situations, or failure? Yeah, suck it up. Be a man.

[TK514]

i. As above poster said, Varric don't know who have the map or there is a map at all, he only heard rumors about a Grey Warden

 

ii. Hawke involved in things he/she don't supposed to get involved with. Find other job, being a city guard or something

 

iii. Hawke provide protection for Anders, or else Anders get caught by Templars, Karl already a Tranquil

 

iv. Arishok won't do anything, Aveline won't get the converts, it's a stalemate. Because Hawke is there, Arishok feel challenged, and feel want to resolved it there. Hawke failed to persuade otherwise

 

vi. Let the city guard handle it...leave it to the professionals.

 

v. Hawke kill Arishok and defeat Qunari before Meredith get into the brawl, Meredith lost her opportunity to appear a hero. She make Hawke a hero just a convenience, "alright, you are a hero, but don't ever dream of being a Viscount!"

 

vii. Hawke could messed up other cities and not Kirkwall

 

I've already dismissed everything here, with reasoning.  I don't feel the need to repeat myself.

[Dai Grepher]

Is that how you put your sympathy on people? Just because a woman failed you give all your sympathy and support on her, no wonder why men drinking so much and become mental...i give my sympathy to men....

 

Men are not depressed because of a lack of emotional support. They're depressed because of actual offenses perpetrated against them legally and personally.

 

Men require far less sympathy. In fact we usually don't require any, but if we do it's just a simple, "sorry to hear that man". That's all it needs to be. Women in general are more emotionally geared, and typically want more emotional support.

 

Applying this to Hawke, its much easier and far more interesting to observe a female Hawke who has to endure all those hardships and fail constantly, because it is naturally easier (for me at least) to sympathize with her and be more understanding of what she has to go through. With a male Hawke, all I see is how poorly he handled things and also all the ways how I as a man would have handled things the right way.