53 réponses à ce sujet

[SoulWeaver]

In Jaws of Hakkon we learn that the Avvar gods are spirits. Occasionally they die, but the Avvar's beliefs attract a new spirit that asssumes the god's position.

 

Keeping that in mind, since the belief in the Andrastian maker is the most widespread in all Thedas, wouldn't a spirit assuming the role of the maker be inevitable? However, the Avvar spirits answer prayers and manifest themselves and the Maker doesn't. Would that be, because everyone believes the Maker left them, as told by the Chantry and the spirit acts according to that belief, or because there is an actual Maker that prevents a spirit from impersonating him?

 

Please discuss

[Aren]

Last time that someone tried to usurp the Maker position (the old gods) it ended poorly,i assume that spirits learned the lesson as well

They can copy whatever they want except the Maker.

Maker portrait is also renowned ,is that  cloaked dude in the raffiguration.

[htisscrimbliv]

or... the avvar and jaws of hakkon are playing a prank on the inquisitor. Let me provide to you another theory:

 

All the people who believe in the maker are in on a giant scam that, if they try to leave, are murdered mercilessly. so the guys over in the frostback basin are being held hostage by mother giselle, and they have to convince you they believe all that mumbo jumbo by creating a prop dragon that has robotic wings and is pretty dumb so it hovers around in circles while its shooting ice at you. thats also why it doesnt instantly fly and start killing people, but instead flies to a lofty rock and decides it needs a break. it is old afterall.

 

if someone tries to impersonate the maker, mother giselle flies in through their window at night and abducts them... making them work in a factory cleaning giants toes' for the rest of their life. oh and the divine isnt really dead, but in hiding. she needs beauty sleep because she is actually an elf

[thats1evildude]

And yet, despite the fact that belief can shape the Fade, there doesn't seem to be a spirit claiming to be the Maker. Is that because Andrastians believe the Maker turned away from them?

[Ashagar]

It wouldn't explain why the maker was distant long before Andrastiism came along and even before the old gods started whispering to the first magisters. Maker belief was after all was brought to Thadas brought out of the north from beyond Thadas by the northern tribes of the Neromenians. Apparently even then he was a distant creator deity who didn't answer give his followers earthly rewards, its pointedly why they eventually started to worship the old gods who did reward their followers even though they continued to believe and honor him with a Festival for creating the world.

[Dai Grepher]

Some possibilities:

 

1 The concept of the Maker is too large for spirits to wrap their heads around, like being all-powerful, all-knowing, or ever-present, or too many people have too many different ideas of what the Maker is.

 

2. The spirits can't copy him because they have some instinctive compulsion not to, like out of fear or reverence. It's also possible they understand what the Maker is to the people, and they know that they can't or should not pose as such a being since it wouldn't end well for them in any case.

 

3. If a spirit is going to pose as a god, why copy one? Why not be your own god? Copying an existing god sort of defeats the whole purpose. Remember, the Avvar do not worship spirits as gods, they basically just call them that, knowing full well that they are spirits. It's more of a tradition than a faith.

 

4. The Maker is real and doesn't allow spirits to copy him. This might also be connected to the taint. Spirits stay away from the Black City because of the taint, and it's because they don't understand the taint. If the Maker created the taint, or had a hand in creating it, then this logic would apply to the Maker as well. They don't understand the Maker, even if they understand the belief.

[straykat]

The Maker simply left because he hates you (yes, even you ).

 

It's not as complicated.

[Illegitimus]

In Jaws of Hakkon we learn that the Avvar gods are spirits. Occasionally they die, but the Avvar's beliefs attract a new spirit that asssumes the god's position.

 

Keeping that in mind, since the belief in the Andrastian maker is the most widespread in all Thedas, wouldn't a spirit assuming the role of the maker be inevitable?

 

Except "the role of the maker" is to be pouty and never interact with humans so there's not much to work with there.  

[Dai Grepher]

But I doubt that perspective would have much influence over any spirit seeking to copy the Maker. Those people probably turn their backs on the Maker to begin with. Meaning, their vision of him as an absent god stems from the fact that they don't believe in him. Thus, no spirit could accurately copy such a being based on the perspectives of those people.

 

People like Leliana believe that the Maker hears the people's prayers, and even speaks to them through visions and simple occurrences. And those who believe in the Maker yearn for his return. So a spirit seeking to copy a god figure should be able to get an idea of what kind of god those people want, unless the possibilities I listed are accurate.

[Ashagar]

It could that the original worshipers of the maker didn't want a god that interfered in the world, in any case even during the days of old god worship the Tevinter still believed enough in him to honor him with a Festival for creating the world. The Ancient Romans pointedly didn't want their gods interfering in the physical  world, they believed it meant they failed forcing the gods to interfere.

 

Me I think its more likely like the Maker's Role is like that of Eru Ilúvatar in Tolken's work operating on a greater scale to the point that any direct intervention by him would have major effects on the world.

[Beren Von Ostwick]

I suspect The Maker would execute the ultimate Holy Smite upon any spirit who even thought of imitating him/her.

[Illegitimus]

But I doubt that perspective would have much influence over any spirit seeking to copy the Maker. Those people probably turn their backs on the Maker to begin with. Meaning, their vision of him as an absent god stems from the fact that they don't believe in him. Thus, no spirit could accurately copy such a being based on the perspectives of those people.

 

People like Leliana believe that the Maker hears the people's prayers, and even speaks to them through visions and simple occurrences. And those who believe in the Maker yearn for his return. So a spirit seeking to copy a god figure should be able to get an idea of what kind of god those people want, unless the possibilities I listed are accurate.

 

The response to those people are the spirits of faith who all seem to do do the Maker's work but have never met the bum.

[Dai Grepher]

But they aren't the Maker. Nor are the Andraste for that matter, which seems even more perplexing.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Solas and Cole refer to the Maker in their "Only we understand the Fade" talks, so my impression is that there is a spirit that adopted the persona of the Maker in the Fade somewhere. 

[straykat]

Solas and Cole refer to the Maker in their "Only we understand the Fade" talks, so my impression is that there is a spirit that adopted the persona of the Maker in the Fade somewhere. 

 

Solas is at a loss with the Maker too. He entertains the notion with Cass, but it's beyond his limits.

[Snowy-Ninja]

The closest the Avvar have to a maker is Korth and he's similar to a Titan (made moutains / caves and dwarves and is the mountains.)

You can have a spirit of faith (those that touch the minds of seekers / One who poesses Wynne), You can have a spirit of Compassion (cole) and a Spirit of Justice (Justice) these are all manifestations of a singular purpose. A spirit is simple minded it can only learn some much (as Cole explains) and Cole only grows a personality after becoming more human. On the other hand Justice who possesses Anders can't understand why Justice in the real world isn't as black and white as it is in the fade and so overtime he's corrupted into vengeance. Spirits are very simple things.

 

Hakkon is confusing, he's a spirit but he's a spirit with a dual purpose, war and winter. How he has a dual purpose isn't really explained but he's a spirit much like any other.

 

So in order for a spirit to assume the role of the maker or imitate the maker they would have to be immense. They would have to embody everything, all virtues, all sins, all aspects of life, from dirt, to animals, to grass and mortals, they would have to be space, time, everything in creation. Such a spirit is impossible, they are simple creatures, no spirit could possibly be all these things and more. 

To find out who/what/where the maker you'd have to answer the The origin of the Universe question for Thedas as the maker (according to the chantry) created everything.

[Ashagar]

And the ancient Northern Neromenians tribes and the ancient Tevinter, its one of the two major things that is central to all maker belief including ancient pre-andrastian beliefs about him, that he created the world and he's apparently been absent for a long time.

[Hydwn]

I wondered this for Elven gods and Old Gods - given that both are worshipped still (the Old Gods in secret cults and the Elven ones by the Dalish) you would think there'd be some spirit stepping into the role.

 

(Which would lead to some comedy when spirit-Andruil meets evanuris-Andruil, etc )

 

But I think folks have hit the nail on the head here: what would a Maker-spirit do?  Abandon creation?  For all we know, there could be dozens, each convinced they are the real one (spirits' memories alter to fit their role) all sitting and stewing on some throne made of Fade-stuff somewhere.

 

Still, there are alternative interpretations of a more active maker, and maybe these have spirits associated with them.  If we assume that Leliana's rose bush and prophetic dream she mentions in Origins bloomed by magic, someone did that.  If not the actual Maker, then it might have been some Maker-spirit. 

[Dai Grepher]

Maybe it's something about the Avvar themselves that makes a spirit copy the "god" the imagine. JoH states that the Avvar gather around and pray for a spirit's rebirth. So maybe that, accompanied by the augers (mages) forming a spirit from the Fade's ether is what causes a new spirit to be born with all the makings of the "god" they perceive.

 

If so, then it explains why there is never a "Maker" spirit or "Andraste" spirit. People who worship the Maker or pray to Andraste aren't reaching out to spirits, and they aren't trying to form spirits into those they are worshiping or praying to.

 

This might also explain the Gauntlet in DA:O, and why a spirit can impersonate a person from your past. The magic there is set to have a spirit see your past and mimic someone, even if still alive (like Jowan).

[Gervaise]

I think the chief reason that spirits don't mimic the Maker is that the majority know usurping his role didn't end well for previous spirits that tried it.     The Maker allegedly gave them control of the Fade and then sat back to see what they would do with it.    Then was disappointed by the lack of creativity so added the material world and creatures to inhabit it that would be inspired to be creative.    Some spirits thought his original declaration that they had dominion over all that exists, applied to his new creation and so decided to set themselves up as gods, but the Maker definitely wasn't happy about that.   

 

It seems to me that the Maker is happy to sit back and let everyone get on with it without his assistance, provided they don't try to be him.  

 

Also, people are probably right when they say that the Maker is too complex an idea for most spirits to get their head around, even if he is only a figment of people's imaginations.    I would also suggest that we only have Andraste's word on it exactly how the Maker should be perceived.      It may well be that he was never considered more than an overlord of creation and not expected to intervene.     The visions that Andraste and Leliana claimed to have had could have come from anyone, even a powerful dreamer.

[In Exile]

And yet, despite the fact that belief can shape the Fade, there doesn't seem to be a spirit claiming to be the Maker. Is that because Andrastians believe the Maker turned away from them?

It could be (and I think that's kind of hilarious). Collective human belief created a god, but it's an absentee jerk because we also really believe that one.

[leaguer of one]

Last time that someone tried to usurp the Maker position (the old gods) it ended poorly,i assume that spirits learned the lesson as well
They can copy whatever they want except the Maker.
Maker portrait is also renowned ,is that  cloaked dude in the raffiguration.

I would think by now people would know that story is untrue. The magisters walking into an ancient elven mess without knowing, not the makers throne room.

[Ashagar]

Except it is true in parts, the city was golden then turned black, something threw the ancient magisters out of the city likely to prevent something worse from happenings and then the ancient seven Magisters sought out their old god masters and tainted them. Even if they were tainted by a ancient elven mess and not their own corruption from what they did to get into the city it doesn't prove or disprove a connection the maker and the city. I personally suspect the elven god kings playing god is why the maker left in the first place.

[leaguer of one]

Except it is true in parts, the city was golden then turned black, something threw the ancient magisters out of the city likely to prevent something worse from happenings and then the ancient seven Magisters sought out their old god masters and tainted them. Even if they were tainted by a ancient elven mess and not their own corruption from what they did to get into the city it doesn't prove or disprove a connection the maker and the city. I personally suspect the elven god kings playing god is why the maker left in the first place.

Sorry but If ancient Elven lore does not have it then then it does not exist. That city has notning to do with the maker. Its an elven city built before the veil was put up.

[Ashagar]

I don't buy that, the elves were not the only people around during the days of the ancient elves, the titans, dwarves, humans and dragons were all around and it was likely the Kossith were around as well. The only people who didn't exist before the veil are the Qunari and they are likely some sort of experiment by either possiblely the ancient Tevinter or more likely the Kossith who also drove them into exile.