53 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

I don't buy that, the elves were not the only people around during the days of the ancient elves, the titans, dwarves, humans and dragons were all around and it was likely the Kossith were around as well. The only people who didn't exist before the veil are the Qunari and they are likely some sort of experiment by either possiblely the ancient Tevinter or more likely the Kossith who also drove them into exile.

Humans were way too low leveled to understand anything then. They did not have any history written down till after the veil was up. Remember avvar history starts after the veil was put up. Dwarves were mostly thrawls then and any belief they have is with the stone. The oxmen are also post veil. The only beings that developed pre veil are the titans, dragons, and elves. The titans and the dragons have no need to record history leaving only the elves. Tevintor was no were near around at time of the elves of old. Sorry, but the golden/black city has no connection to the maker. Anyone who says so are just confused people who did not have enough perspective to know what is going on.

[Ashagar]

I recall the city of Troy was also unknown to everyone but oral lore which eventually regulated it to legend but was later proven to exist. You've yet to provide any real evidence that the Golden/black city had anything to do with the elves and the only elf who you meet from ancient times pointedly denies any connection to the ancient elves.

 

Pointedly the only ancient lore that deals with that place is human lore more pointedly from the ancient Northern Neromenian tribes who also brought maker belief to Thadas.

[leaguer of one]

I recall the city of Troy was also unknown to everyone but oral lore which eventually regulated it to legend but was later proven to exist. You've yet to provide any real evidence that the Golden/black city had anything to do with the elves and the only elf who you meet from ancient times pointedly denies any connection to the ancient elves.

Pointedly the only ancient lore that deals with that place is human lore more pointedly from the ancient Northern Neromenian tribes who also brought maker belief to Thadas.

proof 1.
Mythals connection to the avvar and her making sure to keep them away from the golden city. In bright axes balard we learn of a man who is told of the city in his dream and leads a clan to try and get there. He tries to get brightaxes' clan the join up qnd mythal and brightaxe lover get the to clans to got to war over it to make sure they are notndragged in by the prisoners of the city.Once the war is won, mythal get brightaxe and her clan to go to the very mountion of one of her shrines for protection and live there to this day.

Proof 2. The cross roads.
The elves of old have been shown to make pocket demensions in and between the fade.

Proof 3 . how the veil was made.
Solas made it and stated the fade was once part of the natural world. These are 2 things the chanty got so very wrong, saying it was the maker who made the veil and the fade was never part of the natural world and it was only the domain of the maker and spirits. Added that Silas made the veil to trap the so called elven gods in the fade.

Sorry but all facts point the golden city being elven. You need to note that city need to be there before Solas made the veil to be in the fade. That would mean the elves of old would have know of the city but called it some thing else.

[Ashagar]

Using the Avvar doesn't make for a good argument given that the Maker creator story comes from the Northern Neromenians who both predate the presence of and come from a different place than the Avvar and their related tribes who migrated from the west. Its from the Northern Neromenian tribes and later Tevinter Imperium that the story of the golden city being the seat of the maker comes from and Mythal had no connection either to the Tevinter and their tribal predecessors.

 

Also the Chant never directly claims that the maker created the veil only that he created the fade and the physical world both which did indeed exist before the veil but weren't as separated until Solas created the veil.

[leaguer of one]

Using the Avvar doesn't make for a good argument given that the Maker creator story comes from the Northern Neromenians who both predate the presence of and come from a different place than the Avvar and their related tribes who migrated from the west. Its from the Northern Neromenian tribes and later Tevinter Imperium that the story of the golden city being the seat of the maker comes from and Mythal had no connection either to the Tevinter and their tribal predecessors.

Also the Chant never directly claims that the maker created the veil only that he created the fade and the physical world both which did indeed exist before the veil but weren't as separated until Solas created the veil.

You forget that the avvar use to be part of the northern tribes. All the human tribes come from them. The story is from when they were apart of them and how they got there name. You can not discredit this.

And yes the chantry did directly claim the maker made the veil.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Veil
The Chantry teaches that the Maker created the Veil before He created men.

Link to the verse.
http://dragonage.wik...es#Threnodies_5

[Ashagar]

Except that doesn't say he created the veil only that he separated the fade and the psyical world which were separated to a certain degree before Solas created the veil.

 

The lore flat out states the Avvar and their related tribes migrated out of the distant west into Thadas not the north like the Neromenians. They also had completely alien cultural and religious beliefs from the Neromenian and their related tribes.

[leaguer of one]

Except that doesn't say he created the veil only that he separated the fade and the psyical world which were separated to a certain degree before Solas created the veil.

The lore flat out states the Avvar and their related tribes migrated out of the distant west into Thadas not the north like the Neromenians. They also had completely alien cultural and religious beliefs from the Neromenian and their related tribes.

Dude the first line before the verse is the maker creates the veil. Sorry but my point is soundly proven.
And the lore says all the tribes started in the north and over time some went to the more southern parts of thedus.

[Ashagar]

Well that is how you chose to interpret that line.

[leaguer of one]

Well that is how you chose to interpret thiat line.

No. In the story they say the creator made the veil. Many charater say this as a teaching of the chanty. The line before the stanza is the fade is saprated from the world....which means the veil. Then it's the so call creation of man.

It not based on interpretation. The chanty was flat out wrong about it. Unless Solas is the maker?

[Ashagar]

All Solas did was put a powerful barrier between the fade and the physical world, that doesn't mean there wasn't some sort of separation before only that it wasn't near as strong as the veil now in place.

 

Think of it as the difference between something being separated by let say cheesecloth and something separated by think plastic lining.

[leaguer of one]

All Solas did was put a powerful barrier between the fade and the physical world, that doesn't mean there wasn't some sort of separation before only that it wasn't near as strong as the veil now in place.
 
Think of it as the difference between something being separated by let say cheesecloth and something separated by think plastic lining.

wrong. We 100% know there was no previous barrier. This is pointed out in the comic silent grove. It stated dragons were the first born and lived in a world with no veil. So no there was no first barrier. Solas him self even stated that the spirits had no restrictions from the waking world at the times of elves of old. That means there was no barrier. The waking world and the fade use to be one.

The chantry was wrong.

[Ashagar]

You going to completely ignore any point I raise because it doesn't match your theory aren't you? There being no veil barrier does not imply the fade and world weren't separated in some way only that the separation was not strong enough to keep spirits from coming and going.

[Illegitimus]

You forget that the avvar use to be part of the northern tribes. All the human tribes come from them. The story is from when they were apart of them and how they got there name. You can not discredit this.

And yes the chantry did directly claim the maker made the veil.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Veil
The Chantry teaches that the Maker created the Veil before He created men.

Link to the verse.
http://dragonage.wik...es#Threnodies_5

 

It doesn't even mention the veil.  

[leaguer of one]

It doesn't even mention the veil.

it say the fade separated from the world.... Which is what the veil exactly does. That's the reference to the veil.

[leaguer of one]

You going to completely ignore any point I raise because it doesn't match your theory aren't you? There being no veil barrier does not imply the fade and world weren't separated in some way only that the separation was not strong enough to keep spirits from coming and going.

no I'm ignoring you point because nothing in the lore and story proves it supports it or hints to it. Your points are baseless. Sorry but the world and fade being separated means no major interation between the the two. In the ages before the veil they were walking into the veil like it was nothing. The oldest being never stated a previous barrir and their is no hint of it. Sorry but you have no proof.

[Ashagar]

no I'm ignoring you point because nothing in the lore and story proves it supports it or hints to it. Your points are baseless. Sorry but the world and fade being separated means no major interation between the the two. In the ages before the veil they were walking into the veil like it was nothing. The oldest being never stated a previous barrir and their is no hint of it. Sorry but you have no proof.

 

Except every bit of evidence you brought up could be interpreted several ways that don't fit with your theory. However rather than beat my head against the wall I will simply wait for the next game where we will be going to the north where there are ancient human records, and perhaps dwarven records as well unlike the south. I suspect a lot of theories are going to get rewritten with the influx of new information.

[leaguer of one]

Except every bit of evidence you brought up could be interpreted several ways that don't fit with your theory. However rather than beat my head against the wall I will simply wait for the next game where we will be going to the north where there are ancient human records, and perhaps dwarven records as well unlike the south. I suspect a lot of theories are going to get rewritten with the influx of new information.

no that can't. Not when the story deliberatly has character's saying it only one way over and over agein. It was stated from dao that the maker made the veil. It suddenly proven wrong and now it a maybe it means something else? Sorry, but no. You want to say it was another barrier the give proof. You want to say it may mean something else, give proof or support. It not thn it going to be ignored. For everything I posted I've given sound proof and support. What you have given does not. The elves of old could walk in the fade with no issue and built thing there yet somehow they could not of built what humans call the golden city? It was the maker some how and he made the city and the veil around the same time yet we know that impossible because of Solas' actions?
But now it means something else even though the oldest being of thesis no nothing about it?

Sorry but you need support for this.

[Aeratus]

I think the Chant of Light is most likely wrong about the physical history of Thedas. But this wouldn't be surprising because Human history is wrong on a lot of things, even the identity of Ameridan. 

 

It is clear that the Chant of Light gets a lot of stuff wrong. For example, it says the following:

 

The Fade is separated from the World
And He knew he had wrought amiss.
So the Maker turned from his firstborn
And took from the Fade
A measure of its living flesh
And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying:
Here, I decree
Opposition in all things:
For earth, sky
For winter, summer
For darkness, Light.
By My Will alone is Balance sundered
And the world given new life.

Man is created
And no longer was it formless, ever-changing,
But held fast, immutable,
With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky.
At last did the Maker
From the living world
Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth,
With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.

 

Basically, it says that the Maker separated the fade from the world, and then created life from the spirits from the fade. However, in trespasser, one of the library codexes say:

 

"Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air."

 

Thus, the Maker never created the physical life. Instead, physical life manifested by the spirits themselves. 

 

Furthermore, Cole says:

 

"He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."

 

This states that Solas manifested into a body when Mythal asked solas to manifest as her slave. Solas then burned off the vallaslin to claim freedom. 

 

The earliest living beings were likely elves manifested from spirits. Elves appear to predate humans. If the maker did everything stated above, the elves would have noticed a maker making humans. 

[Ashagar]

Its clear from the Codexes that mortal races existed before the veil especially given the references to them being hunted for sport it is also seems clear that most surviving elven knowledge seems to deal with the continent of Thadas which was the homeland of their empire while the humans and the Kossith seem to have originated beyond that continent. It seems to me that if they felt so little about the mortal races that they would hunt them for sport its unlikely they would recording anything about creatures they have such a dim view of.

[Aeratus]

Its clear from the Codexes that mortal races existed before the veil especially given the references to them being hunted for sport it is also seems clear that most surviving elven knowledge seems to deal with the continent of Thadas which was the homeland of their empire while the humans and the Kossith seem to have originated beyond that continent. It seems to me that if they felt so little about the mortal races that they would hunt them for sport its unlikely they would recording anything about creatures they have such a dim view of.

 

Sure, they existed. But how does this change our view of lore?

 

Humans existed long be fore the veil, but they were primitive in society. The Humans had few records until Tevinter, and even then, a lot of the history of humans is likely distorted by the chantry. Even elven history is distorted by modern elves. 

[Heimdall]

I think the Chant of Light is most likely wrong about the physical history of Thedas. But this wouldn't be surprising because Human history is wrong on a lot of things, even the identity of Ameridan.

It is clear that the Chant of Light gets a lot of stuff wrong. For example, it says the following:


Basically, it says that the Maker separated the fade from the world, and then created life from the spirits from the fade. However, in trespasser, one of the library codexes say:

"Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air."

Thus, the Maker never created the physical life. Instead, physical life manifested by the spirits themselves.

Furthermore, Cole says:

"He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."

This states that Solas manifested into a body when Mythal asked solas to manifest as her slave. Solas then burned off the vallaslin to claim freedom.

The earliest living beings were likely elves manifested from spirits. Elves appear to predate humans. If the maker did everything stated above, the elves would have noticed a maker making humans.

The elves appear to have started as spirits, but we don't have any indication that they predate humans' existence.

[leaguer of one]

The elves appear to have started as spirits, but we don't have any indication that they predate humans' existence.

Yes we do. Mythals daughter in the aventian swamps and the notes of elves of old state it. The elves of old talk about titans, dwarves, spirits, and dragons but no humans of any note.

[leaguer of one]

Its clear from the Codexes that mortal races existed before the veil especially given the references to them being hunted for sport it is also seems clear that most surviving elven knowledge seems to deal with the continent of Thadas which was the homeland of their empire while the humans and the Kossith seem to have originated beyond that continent. It seems to me that if they felt so little about the mortal races that they would hunt them for sport its unlikely they would recording anything about creatures they have such a dim view of.

Dude nothing in the codex say the elves of old was only on the content of thedus. And we know the area humans came from, that is the island the qunari and tevinter are fighting over.

[Illegitimus]

wrong. We 100% know there was no previous barrier. This is pointed out in the comic silent grove. It stated dragons were the first born and lived in a world with no veil. So no there was no first barrier. Solas him self even stated that the spirits had no restrictions from the waking world at the times of elves of old. That means there was no barrier. The waking world and the fade use to be one.

The chantry was wrong.

 

"No barrier": does not mean "The Fade and the waking world were the same thing".

 

 

Yes we do. Mythals daughter in the aventian swamps and the notes of elves of old state it. The elves of old talk about titans, dwarves, spirits, and dragons but no humans of any note.

 

There are also no wolves of any note and no snakes of any note.  Does that mean there were no wolves or snakes or just that they were not notable? 

[leaguer of one]

"No barrier": does not mean "The Fade and the waking world were the same thing".
 
 

 
There are also no wolves of any note and no snakes of any note.  Does that mean there were no wolves or snakes or just that they were not notable?

let's look at our world as an example. Dinosaur were before man and at that time there was no wolves or snakes.
Taking that logic and would have to say being that no wolves and snakes were not stated at the age of dragon then that mean there were no wolves and snakes.

Your logic isnsuper flawed.