264 réponses à ce sujet

[GoldenGail3]

I thought that the Cousland were inspired from the Stark.

Oh - well I was making assumptions, so I could be wrong.

[Tidus]

Actually I try not to let TV shows or other games influence me about the similarity of  characters in any game.

 

If I did then Pup Cousland would be similar to  Princess  Ashelia B' nargin Dalmasca in Final Fantasy 12 since both had families killed and their lands taken.

[AedanStarfang]

The cringeworthy term "Mary Sue" is thrown around so often that it seems people tend to forget its actual meaning, and instead just use it as a means to justify putting on their "critic's glasses" and complain for the sake of complaining. Besides by 2016 I'm certain that most, if not all of Origin's flaws and faults have been thoroughly pointed out and argued so now we must invent things to bicker about. 

[straykat]

The cringeworthy term "mary sue" is thrown around so often that it seems people tend to forget its actual meaning, and instead just use it as a means to justify putting on their "critic's glasses" and complain for the sake of complaining. Besides by 2016 I'm certain that most, if not all of Origin's flaws and faults have been thoroughly pointed out and debated so now we must invent things to bicker about. 

 

I agree.

 

But it can still apply well on this site. Just not here. It first came up in fan fiction, right?... the particularly cringey, self-inserting kind.

[AedanStarfang]

I agree.

 

But it can still apply well on this site. Just not here. It first came up in fan fiction, right?... the particularly cringey, self-inserting kind.

Yes, "My Immortal" *shudder* comes to mind...

[GoldenGail3]

The cringeworthy term "Mary Sue" is thrown around so often that it seems people tend to forget its actual meaning, and instead just use it as a means to justify putting on their "critic's glasses" and complain for the sake of complaining. Besides by 2016 I'm certain that most, if not all of Origin's flaws and faults have been thoroughly pointed out and argued so now we must invent things to bicker about.

Exactly!

[Tidus]

I fully agree Mary Sue is used way to freely like the word "Expert".

[Ghost Gal]

You should watch the ''The Game of Thrones'' if you want to see powerful, corrupt, political families. There are no good nobles on that show; the Cousland's were a breath of fresh air from that seterotype of noble we usually see presented in games and shows.

 

No, I've actually read the books. You know A Song of Ice and Fire (the book series that show is based on, and a huge inspiration for the Dragon Age setting) is meant to explore how the nobles can't be idealistically good because the cold reality of their circumstances forces them to adopt morally questionable worldviews and actions just to survive? (Just look what happens to Ned and Sansa Stark. Look what happens to Danaerys.) 

 

What frustrates me about Dragon Age is that it mostly explores the principles of A Song of Fire and Ice: Deconstructing idealistic High Fantasy and Middle Ages tropes by showing how the ideals couldn't work in a realistic setting. For example, nobles can't be morally squeaky-clean all the time because a) their wealth and status is built on the backs of exploited peasants anyway, b ) the medieval socioeconomic superstructure allows for greedy, amoral people with political savvy and an army behind them to take more power than they already have just because they can, and those who don't learn to fight fire with fire get burned. (Just like the Starks in A Song of Ice and Fire, just like the Dwarf Noble.)

 

What annoys me isn't that the Couslands are "perfect" per se, it's that Dragon Age deconstructs and subverts the circumstances of every Warden from every Origin (i.e. mages, elves, casteless, even dwarf noble) except the Couslands.

 

Every other Warden from every other Origin gets set up as a victim of circumstance (mages oppressed by Templars, elves oppressed by humans, casteless oppressed by dwarves, dwarf nobles by the system of their own political superstructure) but then the game turns around and subverts the oppression and betrayal narratives by brow-beating the player with "you and yours aren't blameless victims because there's always fault on bother sides!" and "it sucks that you've been wronged, but life's not fair and you have to live with it" EXCEPT FOR THE COUSLANDS.

 

Mage Warden: "Yeah, it sucks that mages are oppressed by Templars, but mages really are dangerous and Templars aren't monsters, so live with it."

Elf Warden: "Yeah, it sucks for elves that they're oppressed by humans, but elves suck and humans are awesome, so live with it."

Casteless: "Yeah, it sucks that casteless are oppressed in Orzammar, but the door to the surface is right there, so why not take it?"

Aeducan: "Yeah, it sucks that your brother betrayed you, stripped you of your birthright, and got you exiled to die, but a) that's the nature of dwarf politics, b ) just because your brother betrayed you doesn't mean he's an irredeemable monster, c) just because you were wronged doesn't mean you deserve to get back everything you lost, d) life isn't fair and you have to live with it."

Cousland: "OH, YOU POOR THING! You poor, innocent, blameless little victim! How could that horrible monster do that to your poor, perfect, flawless, blameless family? Don't you worry, sweetie. Once this is over that horrible monster will get his, your family will get back all the lands and titles and prestige they lost and then some, and then we'll even give you the option to rise even further up the social ladder (even though you were already the second highest to begin with) and make you King/Queen of an entire country on top of getting back everything you lost! Isn't that wonderful?"

 

I'm sorry, but suffer like the rest of us. If every other Warden has to endure constantly getting pummeled by the "both sides are at fault" and "life is not fair" stick, so can the Human Noble. 

 

Hell, the game eventually reveals that Bryce's best buddies Cailan and Eamon (the "good guys") really were planning on divorcing Anora to marry the Empress of Orlais, which sort of vindicates Loghain (the "bad guy")'s paranoia in some gullible fans' eyes. Since Bryce was buddy-buddy with Cailan and Eamon, and had a reputation for visiting and being friendly with Orlais, and Howe went around telling people the Couslands were traitors to Orlais, it would have been so simple to just slip in, "Yeah, Bryce was in on the 'Divorce Anora, marry Celene' plan that Cailan and Eamon were concocting." Boom. Bam. Couslands get tapped with the "both sides at fault" stick that every other Origin gets smacked with, the otherwise evil Howe could get some vindication (especially if he truly believed the Couslands were traitors the way Loghain truly believes Grey Wardens are Orlesian spies), and there's a dab of gray on both sides of the otherwise black and white morality of the Human Noble Origin.

 

But no, can't have that.

 

Awwww.....someone who don't like to believe good rich and powerful elites does exist...

 

Ever heard Batman?

 

1) Way to use a fictional character to point to "good rich and powerful elites" who "exist," since Batman isn't real and doesn't exist.

 

2) Even if he did, though, Batman is actually not as great as you think he is.

 

It's explored here and here.

 

 

I thought that the Cousland were inspired from the Stark.

 

 

They are, just with all the flaws and moral ambiguity removed.

 

The first book introduces the Starks as this wonderful, honorable, moral family, but then the series slowly reveals their feet of clay, and puts them in situations where they have to play fast-and-loose with their squeaky-clean morals just to survive.

 

(Hell, their "squeaky-clean morals" are ultimately deconstructed since it comes from being privileged and sheltered. Privileged since they don't have to endure the hardships or difficult choices most non-nobles face due to their status and wealth, and sheltered from the schemes of other nobles due to their out-of-the-way location. Once they're thrown into situations where they have to deal with the same hardships non-nobles face and the same politics the other nobles deal with day-to-day, the Starks are hopelessly out of their depth and have to adapt to survive.)

 

The Human Noble Origin introduces the Couslands as this wonderful, honorable, moral, perfect family... and keeps them that way. Despite deconstructions and subversions about virtually every other character in every other origin, quest, and final showdown every single game, and revelations that Bryce's best buddies Cailan and Eamon planned on doing something morally questionable that vindicates some of Loghain's less moral actions, Bryce and the other Couslands' honor is NEVER deconstructed, subverted, or even questioned.

[Ghost Gal]

The cringeworthy term "Mary Sue" is thrown around so often that it seems people tend to forget its actual meaning, and instead just use it as a means to justify putting on their "critic's glasses" and complain for the sake of complaining. Besides by 2016 I'm certain that most, if not all of Origin's flaws and faults have been thoroughly pointed out and argued so now we must invent things to bicker about. 

 

Then tell us, what does Mary Sue "really mean" and how does it not apply to the Couslands?

[Qis]

You are so determined didn't you?

 

Want a real life good nobles?

 

Do you know that most medieval history about kings and nobles are written by their rivals? They demonized their rivals to make them ridiculously bad and evil. You can find contradictions between the real history and the propaganda about them.

 

 

And this true around the world, in SEA for example, most written history are written by rivals who demonized the nobles and kings, and you can find contradictions in their accounts and the real history. For example in Malay Chronicle writen by 16th century noble who hate the Sultanate wrote that that Sultan Mahmud of Melaka was a womanizer, drunk, hedonist, love to execute people for no reason....but in other accounts and taken from foreign accounts said that the Sultan was religious, love to seek knowledge and respect scholars. For a religious person and the one who pursue knowledge, it contradict what is said about him being womanizer, drunk and hedonist. Another example, Sultan Alaudin Riayat Shah was a good king, he himself disguise as a pirate to capture pirates. But he died early, poisoned, because he's too good to be a Sultan, no one want a good Sultan.

 

So there are good nobles, good kings, but their real history messed up by their rivals, they are peoples of many enemies. You can't just believe anything exaggerated about their evilness or even goodness, because propaganda is a thing in medieval time. It depends on where you look to learn about them, where you get the resource. It is the same like today world, when you hear about the corruption of certain politicians, know that the one who "expose" such thing come from their rivals. The same here. Either it is true or not, it's politic.

[GoldenGail3]

Mage Warden: "Yeah, it sucks that mages are oppressed by Templars, but mages really are dangerous and Templars aren't monsters, so live with it."
Elf Warden: "Yeah, it sucks for elves that they're oppressed by humans, but elves suck and humans are awesome, so live with it."
Casteless: "Yeah, it sucks that casteless are oppressed in Orzammar, but the door to the surface is right there, so why not take it?
.

Human Noble: "Oh no! We are all gonna die because of Howe, who betrayed us by taking over our castle!"

[GoldenGail3]

Then tell us, what does Mary Sue "really mean" and how does it not apply to the Couslands?

Mary Sue - On Wikipedia - is often judged as a poorly devolped Character, too pefrect, and lacking in realism to make them interesting. https://en.m.wikiped...g/wiki/Mary_Sue

[Qis]

I don't see how marriage between nations is a traitorous thing to do...furthermore the one who married is the king of the nation and the other who being called enemy is a queen.

 

Marriage between King Cailan and Empress Celene is a good thing, Cailan is a KING, remember that in medieval time and in DA set up is still male oriented, power is to the male, not female. If Cailan married with Celene, it means Cailan rule both nations.

 

If Cousland are involved, it's nothing wrong with it, really it's nothing wrong.

 

But Loghain and Howe using that to topple their king, they are the traitor, they rebel against their king. Howe genocide the Cousland and so he gain power, Loghain let his king die and so he gain power as Queen regeant. How come anyone could say Cousland is the evil one while the obvious evil characters here are Loghain and Howe?

 

Now...if Cailan did marry Celene, two nations combined and Cailan is the supreme ruler, the King....but Loghain betrayed him let him die...now Ferelden don't have a ruler because Cailan have no heir, civil war happens...and the Blight spreading...which is a good thing?

 

I don't get it why anyone could say Loghain and Howe are good...just because they hate the Cousland

[GoldenGail3]

I don't see how marriage between nations is a traitorous thing to do...furthermore the one who married is the king of the nation and the other who being called enemy is a queen.
 
Marriage between King Cailan and Empress Celene is a good thing, Cailan is a KING, remember that in medieval time and in DA set up is still male oriented, power is to the male, ot female. If Cailan married with Celene, it means Cailan rule both nations.
 
If Cousland are involved, it's nothing wrong with it, really it's nothing wrong.
 
But Loghain and Howe using that to topple their king, they are the traitor, they rebel against their king. Howe genocide the Cousland and so he gain power, Loghain let his king die and so he gain power as Queen regeant. How come anyone could say Cousland is the evil one while the obvious evil characters here are Loghain and Howe?
 
Now...if Cailan did marry Celene, two nations combined and Cailan is the supreme ruler, the King....but Loghain betrayed him let him die...now Ferelden don't have a ruler because Cailan have no heir, civil war happens...and the Blight spreading...which is a good thing?
 
I don't get it why anyone could say Loghain and Howe are good...just because they hate the Cousland

I think Cailan is an idiot. A total buffoon.

[Illegitimus]

Then tell us, what does Mary Sue "really mean" and how does it not apply to the Couslands?

 

The original meaning of "Mary Sue" is "original character in fanfiction who upstages the characters the series is all about".  By extension, it means a character who steals the spotlight unreasonably.  If a story has a Mary Sue, then nobody can be indifferent to the Mary Sue.  Nobody can say "Sure, you're on a quest, but I got my own problems, pal".  Nobody can say "Mary Sue was murdered, but we've got more immediate problems to deal with before catching her killer."  When Mary Sue talks, everyone listens.  Nobody tells Mary Sue she's interrupting a private conversation.  In fact nobody has a conversation about anything except Mary Sue.  

[Qis]

I think Cailan is an idiot. A total buffoon.

 

 

I don't think so, as a young man of his stature, he must have two face...he just cannot hide his other character yet, being "muahahaha i want an epic battle!"...but in other way, that also could be his mask...

 

But i can agree Alistair is an idiot and a total buffoon

[GoldenGail3]

I don't think so, as a young man of his stature, he must have two face...he just cannot hide his other character yet, being "muahahaha i want an epic battle!"...but in other way, that also could be his mask...
 
But i can agree Alistair is an idiot and a total buffoon

No, no I'm refusing to call my canon love bad. After all, my Queen Cousland is his wife.

[Qis]

Alright, different Origins may have different interpretations, but i interpret why Cailan ask HN Warden and Alistair to light the beacon is a wise one...he already saw that there might be a treachery by Loghain, so he leave the Cousland and an heir to the throne out of battle.

 

Even if play as other Origin, we can see that Cailan is a smart one, he leave The Warden and Alistair out of battle just as a precaution should something go wrong and he died. He know Alistair is an heir, and The Warden could help Alistair reaching the throne.

 

Remember that the whole thing in Ostagar is Loghain plan. Cailan want to wait but Loghain insists on battling the Darkspawn without Orlesian help out of his paranoia.

 

The whole story actually fit HN origin...Loghain have planned it, Howe will wipe out Cousland, Loghain let Cailan dead, and so the two can rule Ferelden. Cousland Warden will take revenge.

 

What more fitting the whole story?

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I would consider the Couslands too utterly insignificant to the plot to be Mary Sues, per se... but they are goofily perfect in a way that, objectively speaking, meshes poorly with the rest of the setting.

[GoldenGail3]

Personally, I would consider the Couslands too utterly insignificant to the plot to be Mary Sues, per se... but they are goofily perfect in a way that, objectively speaking, meshes poorly with the rest of the setting.

I wouldn't have liked to be Guerrin to be honest. They are one manplative, messed up family they are. I hope that Connor isn't the same way. And I like the Couslands... They are bad arses, all of them.

[Tidus]

Maybe the Couslands was masters at the game like the Orlesians. At any rate Loghain wanted them and Arl Eamond dead.

[Ash Wind]

I wouldn't have liked to be Guerrin to be honest. They are one manplative, messed up family they are. I hope that Connor isn't the same way. And I like the Couslands... They are bad arses, all of them.

This.

 

They are bad asses, and what's wrong with that? I instantly took to that Origin, it was the best IMHO, everyone was awesome. Whether they're technically Mary Sue's or not, who ****** cares... Its exactly that type of thinking that gives us ass clown characters for no other reason than, oh no, 17 people out there will think they're Mary Sue's, so instead, Fergus has to be a mean, despicable douchebag.

 

Some people seriously need to get over it, and move on with their lives.

[Illegitimus]

Maybe the Couslands was masters at the game like the Orlesians. At any rate Loghain wanted them and Arl Eamond dead.

 

Bryce was doing business with someone in Orlais.  Precisely what it is was we shall never know, but that would be enough for Loghain.

[GoldenGail3]

This.
 
They are bad asses, and what's wrong with that? I instantly took to that Origin, it was the best IMHO, everyone was awesome. Whether they're technically Mary Sue's or not, who ****** cares... Its exactly that type of thinking that gives us ass clown characters for no other reason than, oh no, 17 people out there will think they're Mary Sue's, so instead, Fergus has to be a mean, despicable douchebag.
 
Some people seriously need to get over it, and move on with their lives.

Don't let the human PC hating person here you say that.

[Qis]

Compare with our real life, Japan was USA enemy, but does that make Japan forever USA enemy? No, you guys play Nintendo games for **** sake...

 

It is nothing wrong to have business with Orlais, marrying them, and whatever with Orlais. The feud was in the past, but the paranoia of Loghain have no bound.

 

Cousland having bsuiness with Orlesian have nothing to do with against patriotism whatsoever

 

USA have business with Japan long before the war and after

 

Even general Mc Arthur can sit down with the emperor Hirohito and talking business, why not Loghain?

 

Loghain take the war personally, that's the problem. He thought making good relationship with Orlais means BETRAYING HIM because he fought against Orlais.

 

Is good relationship between USA and Japan means USA betraying US troops who fought Japan? Does you guys playing Nintendo games means betraying your troops in WW2?

 

No isn't it?