503 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashagar]

I can think of a one, the many peoples of Thadas and the other continents do not deserve to die just so the few ancient elves can have their world back.

[Lulupab]

I can think of a one, the many peoples of Thadas and the other continents do not deserve to die just so the few ancient elves can have their world back.

 

Just like the Elven world did not deserve to die out because of a mistake. It makes you think about the fact that humans are dominating Thedas because of a mistake, not because they earned their place.

[Karmel]

@Medhia_Nox

Yeah...

You want to defend the modern Thedas by the escalation of violence.

 

You accuse Solas of destroying the ancient elves - as if you did not understand that 'destruction' meant cutting off Elvhen from the Fade, and the creation of the Veil was necessary to protect them from Evanuris.

 

You blame him for giving the Orb to Cory. But Solas had not ordered him to use it in this way, in which he did. And if Solas actually decided to wait those "three years" the future from "In Hushed Whispers", would be a Thedas reality, because at that time "darkspawn magister" would find another way to get into the Black City.

 

"The guy who tells you straight to your face - "I am going to destroy modern Thedas for MY PEOPLE?""- He is not presented by BioWare like you're trying to portray him. Many people see it differently, as you can see, and not for the reasons that you were kind to give.

 

If we rely solely on the contents of DA: I and DLCs - you can not convince me that Solas must be condemned, at once. Or that your opinion is based on rational reasons.

 

The main difference between Solas and Corypheus, is that the latter tells you about his plans when actively trying to kill you. Meanwhile Solas reveals his plan and leaves. Even if (a moment before) you attacked him.

Also, he is not trying to weaken the Inquisition or Thedas in any way, which should surprise - as it soon may become his enemies... You can assume, that he is a crackpot who can not respect different opinions, who can not admit their mistakes, wishes the slaughter of the innocents and reinforces his opponents for sport - but you can't support that by any evidence taken from the game, because in DA: Inquisition Solas cares about people of different races and takes care of companions, even those with whom he does not always agree. He can admit someone was right and apologize if he has judged someone unfairly or too hard. Need specifics, please use the Wiki - Solas/Dialogue.

More than this - I do not consider Solas for "holy" or "infallible", not at all (he does not think so, so why would I disagree with him), and I did not announce, that his plan is "brilliant" one (because I do not know its details, and as total I am willing to argue). Just to be clear.

 

But, unlike you, I hope BW now go a different route - if only for educational purposes - to show that not everyone who wants to change something (like the World, for example   ) must be bloodthirsty maniac, with Messiah complex. That the way to solve the crisis may be seeking solutions, proposing compromises and giving others a chance to correct their own mistakes - and not just to collect a larger army.

 

At the end - sorry if I offended you interfering with your conversation with someone else, but this is a public forum...

[Illegitimus]

Just like the Elven world did not deserve to die out because of a mistake. It makes you think about the fact that humans are dominating Thedas because of a mistake, not because they earned their place.

 

I question whether it was creating the veil that was a mistake.  What would you rather have even if you were an elf at the time, you civilization destroyed by the loss of magic and Arlathan...or your civilization destroyed by Taint?  

[Ashagar]

I am sure the ancient elves weren't the only people who had the world they knew destroyed, something drove the humans into migrating into Thadas from the north and west into Thadas. Large tribal groups like the Neromenians and the Alamarri generally don't migrate on such a scale unless something displaced them. Especially when you consider it was likely a area known to them have powerful people who hunted them for sport.

[Gwydden]

Just like the Elven world did not deserve to die out because of a mistake. It makes you think about the fact that humans are dominating Thedas because of a mistake, not because they earned their place.

They most certainly did. Otherwise they wouldn't be around.

 

By that logic, (real) humans shouldn't be here in the (real) world, since that's only the result of an accident e.g. a meteor slamming into Earth and killing all the dinosaurs.

[Lulupab]

I question whether it was creating the veil that was a mistake.  What would you rather have even if you were an elf at the time, you civilization destroyed by the loss of magic and Arlathan...or your civilization destroyed by Taint?  

 

Well "mistake" would have been better, I agree. (quotation mark)

 

But some tyrants running around is better than total destruction of a world.

[Lulupab]

They most certainly did. Otherwise they wouldn't be around.

 

By that logic, (real) humans shouldn't be here in the (real) world, since that's only the result of an accident e.g. a meteor slamming into Earth and killing all the dinosaurs.

 

Well its not a good example really. Creating the veil was not an accident.

 

The real humans would earn their stay when they can overcome the "accident" of their time I.E stopping a meteor from hitting earth. We didn't exactly earn our place either, but we never had a real rival to begin with so it doesn't matter.

[TobiTobsen]

Well its not a good example really. Creating the veil was not an accident.

 

The real humans would earn their stay when they can overcome the "accident" of their time I.E stopping a meteor from hitting earth. We didn't exactly earn our place either, but we never had a real rival to begin with so it doesn't matter.

 

What kind of logic is that? Kill most people and reinstate the old elvhen empire so everybody else has a "chance to prove their worth"?

 

What exactly did the ancient elvhen do to "earn their stay"?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lulupab:  For the same reason that you have more right to exist than the dinosaurs.  Because right now, you exist.  That will change once you are gone, but right now is your verse.  If your character wants to get washed away in the tide of Solas' new world - then I would say to that character:  "Get out of my way, I'm saving what is for what might be." 

 

If this were a cosmic event - you would hear a slightly different argument, but it's not.  It's an event planned by a deeply flawed, deeply ignorant being who won't stop to consider that he's wrong. 

 

As for taking sides.  If Solas and I were in the same room together - I would wax philosophical for an eternity about every concept.  But the minute he turns his thoughts toward action, I have to do that same - and, being opposed to his action as I am - then I must oppose Solas. 

 

Concerning the Evanuris:  They killed the Pillars of the Earth.  That is enough for me to want to stop them completely as I believe that this act was what created the Darkspawn in the first place.  And even if it did not create the darkspawn - there is something so maleavolent beneath Thedas that the Evanuris were afraid of it and sealed it up.  And THEY were the cause of it. 

[Lulupab]

What exactly did the ancient elvhen do to "earn their stay"?

 

Killed/beat whatever challenged them.

 

Previously people kept saying "right of conquest" when it came to Elves. But since clearly humans did NOT conquer them and they do exist, they have the same right as humans to claim Thedas.

[Lulupab]

@Lulupab:  For the same reason that you have more right to exist than the dinosaurs.  Because right now, you exist.  That will change once you are gone, but right now is your verse.  If your character wants to get washed away in the tide of Solas' new world - then I would say to that character:  "Get out of my way, I'm saving what is for what might be."

Solas never implies he is going to nuke the world. He will simply remove the veil. The result is quite unknown.
 

If this were a cosmic event - you would hear a slightly different argument, but it's not.  It's an event planned by a deeply flawed, deeply ignorant being who won't stop to consider that he's wrong.

But the veil is literally property of Solas. I wouldn't be wrong if I said its HIS veil. All I'm saying is he literally has the ownership of veil and is free to do whatever he wants with it. If human life is dependent on magic of an elf mage, it might as well end right now because its VERY fragile.
 

As for taking sides.  If Solas and I were in the same room together - I would wax philosophical for an eternity about every concept.  But the minute he turns his thoughts toward action, I have to do that same - and, being opposed to his action as I am - then I must oppose Solas.

Solas does say he would rather be wrong in assuming the current world has to be destroyed. So given that humans did nothing short of tormenting Elves and defiled their own religion to remove the mention of the Elves, I'd say human world deserves a very good spanking. You would be no more right than Solas if you were in the same room.
 

Concerning the Evanuris:  They killed the Pillars of the Earth.  That is enough for me to want to stop them completely as I believe that this act was what created the Darkspawn in the first place.  And even if it did not create the darkspawn - there is something so maleavolent beneath Thedas that the Evanuris were afraid of it and sealed it up.  And THEY were the cause of it.

You are assuming too much with too little information. You don't even know if the attack was unprovoked. Evanuris were quite intelligent and there is no reason to be muhaha lets attack underground. It very likely the titan directly challenged their rule.

[Lulupab]

Oh and its quite possible the Veil will automatically get destroyed with Solas' death. There are many instances in DA where when the mage dies all his magic dies with him.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lulupab:  So, what you're saying is... the Codex about Mythal killing the Pillars of the Earth... the Codex about the Evanuris mining lyrium, pissing something off and collapsing tunnels... they're all suspect because they don't fit into your theory.  Let's forget the codexes about the peace loving Evanuris enslaved the elves... slaughtered the dwarves... and the reason they attacked underground was the lyrium. 

 

But Solas is absolutely telling the truth because that fits into your theory.

 

You know, there are codexes that say "The Maker created the Veil"  - yet, oddly I don't see you believing in those... again, because they don't fit into your theory. 

 

That Solas admits - in verbal text that he lies to and manipulates you and others freely (it's in the dialogue) - doesn't seem to mean anything to Solas supporters... because NOW he's telling the truth.

 

It's possible he even believes he DID create the Veil... since I believe he was a Pride demon (easily supported by many passages in DA:I) - that he doesn't consider he might be wrong again (after being wrong every single time he's done something so far) isn't hard for me to understand.  He's a creature of Pride - no doubt far more complex because of his many years experiencing the world - but at his core, Pride. 

 

Honestly - while fun, these conversations are largely pointless.  I'm more eager to see if I'm right at all with DA4 or 5.  

[Lulupab]

I'm sorry but your Theories are way off.

Solas slept because creating the veil weakened him greatly. He was not sleepy.

Plus are you really using the maker as an argument now? BTW the said Codex(s) are written by people such as Brother Genetivi. Codex has been wrong about many, many things thus far. Maker's existence is not even proven lmao.

 

Mine is not "theory". Looks like someone missed the events PROVING Solas created the veil.

[Illegitimus]

Killed/beat whatever challenged them.

 

Previously people kept saying "right of conquest" when it came to Elves. But since clearly humans did NOT conquer them 

 

No.  

 

Humanity obviously couldn't have conquered Arlathan during it's golden age.  The tribesmen of that day could not have.  They could not even have done it if they had the power of "modern" day Orlais.  Also the Goths could not have conquered Rome during its golden age.  That does not mean that they did not in fact conquer.  

[Ashagar]

Yep, something about plagues wiping out most of the army and the general population of the Roman Empire twice over coupled with political infighting tends to fatally weaken even the most powerful empires and kill revivals for that matter, not to mention having the city of rome having city defenses that required well over 20,000 men to be remotely effective which sort of killed the effectiveness of otherwise impressive defensive walls that could not be breached by even cannon fire until the late 19th century.

[thats1evildude]

Just like the Elven world did not deserve to die out because of a mistake. It makes you think about the fact that humans are dominating Thedas because of a mistake, not because they earned their place.

 

The ancient elven world would have died out regardless. If Solas had not created the Veil, the Evanuris would have destroyed their world.

[Almostfaceman]

The ancient elven world would have died out regardless. If Solas had not created the Veil, the Evanuris would have destroyed their world.

 

Just as likely, the Evanuris would have preserved their world, which was them with everyone else under their boot heel. 

[Illegitimus]

Just as likely, the Evanuris would have preserved their world, which was them with everyone else under their boot heel. 

 

It seems unlikely.  The hints seem to suggest that something was going on with the blight that precluded that.  

[Medhia_Nox]

@lulupab:  Where are these "events" that "prove" Solas created the Veil? 

 

I really hope you don't mean when he says:  "I created the Veil."

[Qun00]

I am aware that the modern elves aren't his people, as there is a great gap culturally speaking.

However, I don't understand why Solas won't include them in his "To atone for" list. He's screwed these people over. He is the reason why city elves and Dalish alike have lived in such terrible circumstances.

And somehow, Solas doesn't feel like he is at least partially responsible for them. They're not special enough.

I always fix my genocidal accidents with purposeful genocidal acts. This way, I know I meant it - and that'll make me feel better.

Pfff... hahahaha

Damn... this right here is sig worthy.

[Illegitimus]

I am aware that the modern elves aren't his people, as there is a great gap culturally speaking.

However, I don't understand why Solas won't include them in his "To atone for" list. He's screwed these people over. He is the reason why city elves and Dalish alike have lived in such terrible circumstances.

And somehow, Solas doesn't feel like he is at least partially responsible for them. They're not special enough.

 

 

I think he actually intends to save a bunch of them and teach them to be something approximating "his people".  

[CardButton]

I am aware that the modern elves aren't his people, as there is a great gap culturally speaking.

However, I don't understand why Solas won't include them in his "To atone for" list. He's screwed these people over. He is the reason why city elves and Dalish alike have lived in such terrible circumstances.

And somehow, Solas doesn't feel like he is at least partially responsible for them. They're not special enough.


Pfff... hahahaha

Damn... this right here is sig worthy.

My assumption is there is physically something different about the (lets call them two Elven species) and not just culturally.  

 

As for Solas I'm sure he does feel responsible for the Modern Elves, but they are also very present symbol of shame and failure for him as well.  He attempted to lift the Elven people from their oppressors and in the process shattered their world and brought them lower than they probably ever were in history.  Removed them from the Magic of the Fade, removed their immortality, allowed them to become slaves and outcasts in what once their own world, and forced them for many millennium to live in the lowest stratum of society.  They don't even remember their past correctly and therefore could not possibly have learned or grown from it. The Dalish especially (gladly branding themselves with the marks of slavery he so desperately attempted to remove from them) must have come as a huge shock and disappointment.

 

My thoughts about Solas here (and again this me thinking he plans on removing the Veil to save whatever is left of the Ancient Elves) is that it's not that he doesn't see them as "NOT Special" but he certainly perceives them as flawed.  Ignoring the idea that he has convinced himself that current Thedas is not real, the modern Elves are simply some leftover bastardization of his people.  A shadow of their former selves, removed too long from the Fade and probably incapable of returning to it physically even if the veil were removed (with the amount of magic involved it would be like trying to shove a Gallon of Water into a Shot-Glass ... that aint going to end well).  For Solas Pride and Shame go hand in hand and the only cure (and the only way to "save" him) is through true Humility. 

 

No matter his guilt about their current existence, if Solas feels he cannot "fix" the modern Elves then why should he try?  These are just some of my thoughts though... 

[RenAdaar]