503 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Just because the Maker doesn't appear directly like the Evanuris this doesn't mean that the events aren't somehow influenced by a Divine nature,Corypheus who lost that mark at the conclave,luck,destiny? Nah Divine intervention,he wouldn't lost the magical orb otherwise.

As far as i'm concerned the golden city is divine in nature and has nothing to do with the elves since they were also incapable to enter the golden city,if i'm not mistaken there is a codex that explain that the elves feared it's power,it was a codex about Mythal if i'm not mistaken.

Also if i remember humans , the Neromerians tribes decided to left their original continent for Thedas because that continent is now the domain of some super entity who forced them to leave maybe was the maker who know?

 

Except, it was pure luck Corypheus failed to obtain anchor only because Justinia knocked orb out of his hand, fact is that whole maker intervention thing in that matter came from pure misinformation and desires of believers rather than something that holds value as an evidence.

 

Also from what i recall nothing is said about enity causing it rather than something that caused humans leave what could be anything from some sort disaster to hostile race or empire as they try put some civilization across the sea.And then we would need to assume it is truth in first place instead humans making it up like elves did. 
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[Ieldra]

 

Just because the Maker doesn't appear directly like the Evanuris this doesn't mean that the events aren't somehow influenced by a Divine nature,Corypheus who lost that mark at the conclave,luck,destiny? Nah Divine intervention,he wouldn't lost the magical orb otherwise.

This kind of logic is invalid. "It's possible" says nothing about the world unless you can find evidence that it's not just possible but actual. There is always an infinite number of possible explanations for any given set of facts, but usually we get closest to reality if we dispense with any unneeded elements. Unseen deities whose hands you can't discern are primary candidates for dispensing with them.

[Lulupab]

The concept of having earned something is irrelevant to history. Who the heck decides that anyway, and by which standards? The use of this concept to delegitimize human domination of Thedas is fallacious.

 

I'm not "delegitimizing" anything. I merely said its no longer right of conquest, and it isn't.

 

And under no circumstance or aspect one can claim humans have more "right" to rule Thedas than Elves do.

[Lulupab]

Justinia knocked the orb from Corypheus' hand. She was not a helpless priest, she had a past like Leliana.

 

She may believe in the maker, but her faith has never been blind. She saved Thedas, in life and in death. Giving credit to maker is insulting to her. Like you would give credit to god when a surgeon did all the work to save a dying man.

[Aren]

 

 

Also from what i recall nothing is said about enity causing it rather than something that caused humans leave what could be anything from some sort disaster to hostile race or empire as they try put some civilization across the sea.And then we would need to assume it is truth in first place instead humans making it up like elves did. 
.  

Some scholars believe that the first humans in Thedas came from the rainforests of Par Vollen many thousands of years ago, migrating south from the archipelago. 

It is also stated by Sten and Shale at how humans resemble the monkeys animal that are there.

The pyramids they built still stand to this day and are regarded by travelers to the region as true wonders.

Those may be monuments dedicated to their original god before that their religion were polluted by the old gods and the golden city.

But i believe that the German soldier was referring to the Alamarri which is also the original clan/tribe of Andtaste,they passed into Ferelden from the distant west in -1220 TE[1]. 

They needed to find a new homeland because their original land was plagued by a demon according to Solas,the Alamarri were one of the earliest human tribes, and the first humans to settle in south-eastern Thedas. 

 "Alamarri" is not a single tribe, but a loose coalition of tribes started by the Alamarri peoples. 

now what kind of Demon could be so powrful to force all those people to leave and for what reason? It could have been the Maker who wanted to manipulate hisotry in this way.

1 "demon" vs all the Alamarri and yet they lost  miserably and forced to run,for sure someone who is capable to do this alone is beyond the archdemons/corrupted dragon gods league,since they need an army of darkspawns at their back to be a continental threat like that "demon"  who unlike them  did everything alone apparently.

This kind of logic is invalid. "It's possible" says nothing about the world unless you can find evidence that it's not just possible but actual. There is always an infinite number of possible explanations for any given set of facts, but usually we get closest to reality if we dispense with any unneeded elements. Unseen deities whose hands you can't discern are primary candidates for dispensing with them.

 

Justinia knocked the orb from Corypheus' hand. She was not a helpless priest, she had a past like Leliana.

 

She may believe in the maker, but her faith has never been blind. She saved Thedas, in life and in death. Giving credit to maker is insulting to her. Like you would give credit to god when a surgeon did all the work to save a dying man.

Corypheus was a powerful mage in full control of Grey wardens mages who had immobilized the divine,under those condition in no way the Divine would have been capable to kick the Orb from his hand,people can call it bad writing or like German soldier said The Maker intervention.

this is usually the reference that i brought up for the beginning

http://forum.bioware...usly-contrived/

In no way the point of view of a divine intervetion, is delegitimated

and i also seriously doubt that Corypheus was that incompetent.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Some scholars believe that the first humans in Thedas came from the rainforests of Par Vollen many thousands of years ago, migrating south from the archipelago. 

It is also stated by Sten and Shale at how humans resemble the monkeys animal that are there.

The pyramids they built still stand to this day and are regarded by travelers to the region as true wonders.

Those may be monuments dedicated to their original god before that their religion were polluted by the old gods and the golden city.

But i believe that the German soldier was referring to the Alamarri which is also the original clan/tribe of Andtaste,they passed into Ferelden from the distant west in -1220 TE[1]. 

They needed to find a new homeland because their original land was plagued by a demon according to Solas,the Alamarri were one of the earliest human tribes, and the first humans to settle in south-eastern Thedas. 

 "Alamarri" is not a single tribe, but a loose coalition of tribes started by the Alamarri peoples. 

now what kind of Demon could be so powrful to force all those people to leave and for what reason? It could have been the Maker who wanted to manipulate hisotry in this way.

1 "demon" vs all the Alamarri and yet they lost  miserably and forced to run,for sure someone who is capable to do this alone is beyond the archdemons/corrupted dragon gods league,since they need an army of darkspawns at their back to be a continental threat like that "demon"  who unlike them  did everything alone apparently.

Interesting. i looked it up and i see that source of claming that reason of Alamarri migration was Demon is Solas, by that it is unlikely that was Maker as it is said even Solas have no idea of such being existing.Any stronger demon would qualify as demons are a huge threat to society or even world especially if you don't have means to fight them like templars or another people that are specialized to fight demons.1 single desire demon that possessed,a child took over entire castle and destroyed village with ease and would have done much more damage if protagonist didn't show up to slain demon.   

[Ieldra]

Corypheus was a powerful mage in full control of Grey wardens mages who had immobilized the divine,under those condition in no way the Divine would have been capable to kick the Orb from his hand,people can call it bad writing or like German soldier said The Maker intervention.

People believe what they want, but as I said, there is always an infinite number of possible explanations for any given set of facts, and it's usually considered appropriate to choose one which requires only minor additional elements. Now, a deity of the Maker's kind can be considered the biggest hammer of all to throw at a problem. Let's say the alternative hypothesis is that Corypheus lost concentration and thus the Divine was no longer immobilized. The only way you'd EVER prefer the Maker as an explanation is if you're extremely biased in favor of its existence in the first place. In any scenario where you'd consider both hypotheses on their methodological merit alone, the Maker wouldn't have a chance.

[berelinde]

Justinia knocked the orb from Corypheus' hand. She was not a helpless priest, she had a past like Leliana.

 

She may believe in the maker, but her faith has never been blind. She saved Thedas, in life and in death. Giving credit to maker is insulting to her. Like you would give credit to god when a surgeon did all the work to save a dying man.

Lots of people do precisely that, on a regular basis.

 

Justinia herself says that it could be the Maker's will in the Fade. She says something like "If you believe in Andraste and the Maker, the Anchor might be their gift. If you don't, nothing has changed." Paraphrased, obviously, but Justinia doesn't rule out the possibility that she was an agent of divine intervention.

 

Faith - belief in a deity or deities and/or their ability to affect reality - exists precisely because it can't be proven. A lot of people don't buy into it. Many look with scorn on believers, thinking them credulous fools. And others whole-heartedly believe that the skill that saved a dying man was a gift from some higher power. They brand unbelievers as short-sighted fools. One way or another, talking about real world examples here is dangerous. Politics, religion, and public fora are an explosive mix.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. We're talking about a game, a fictitious world. This made-up world contains deities. The writers decide which gods are real, not players. For all we know, we'll find some ancient prophecy scribed in some ancient tome from the Divine Age saying that the Maker carved the Inquisitor's name on the Tablets of Destiny or whatever, and by so doing, fated the Inquisitor to recover the lost relic of a lost elven god-king. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Medhia_Nox:

My problem with your hypotheses is that you're doubting some pretty fundamental things in order to create your version of history. Consider what kind of stuff the DA team *has* revealed: it's really about nothing that wasn't in doubt before, though the way the revelations worked was occasionally surprising. Meanwhile, those things which were revealed as fact rather than legend or belief have always been pretty hard. So....chances are that Solas really created the Veil and that the Evanuris, along with Solas himself, really were elven super-mages. In Bioware's games, you usually know when you can trust something said by another, and Solas - regardless of his ethics - is clearly intended to be a reliable source about history, if not exactly about his plans for the future. There are also independent sources for all that. Of course, Solas is clearly capable of the level of deception required, yet I see no reason to believe that. I consider the basis of your version of elven history a conspiracy theory.

 

Hey now, to be fair - I was saying that Elvhenan was full of a bunch of evil douches back in DA:2 - before I had even read Masked Empire.  I was just delighted that I happened to be right.  

 

I will consider Solas an unreliable narrator until I see reason to believe otherwise. 

 

I could also say that you like the history Solas is feeding you so you tend to be more prone to believing his words.

 

Though, I would argue... do you think Nicola Telsa "invented" electricty or discovered it?  (NOTE: Yes, I am aware he is not accredited for discovering electricity - but I think it still illuminates my point that he unearthed many fascinating fundamentals) All forces of nature that are possible... have always been possible.  Television... or the Internet... or Wi Fi... has always been possible.  I won't say that Solas wasn't the one to discover the Veil and strengthen it... but unless magic is more like a fairy tale magic... he couldn't have invented it.

 

Which - ultimately nullifies my argument about magic and supports your claims about it. 

 

"IF" magic is a science... then it has always been the same science.  You can't make up new rules of physics... you can only discover more of the truth and modify rules that were incorrect.  

 

"IF" Solas just created something from nothing... then magic is absolutely not like science at all. 

[Almostfaceman]

The problem is... we don't really KNOW that the world Solas is feeding us is the "world in its natural state".  The world in its natural state could be... "no magic" - just because Solas' timeframe had "no Veil" doesn't mean there never was a Veil.  Especially if, as you assert, magic is like science.  Solas can't create something out of nothing if that's the case... the "Veil" as a possibility had to have existed long before Solas... just like anything in our real natural world exists for eons before we discover it.

.

 

This is not really a problem supported in any way by the story. This is a problem created by you out of... nothing. 

[Almostfaceman]

I don't know if this video has been brought up here, but here's something to think about for the people with belief that Solas intends to bring modern elves to glory, or that he's being figurative and "doesn't really mean it." It seems his own words shatter this illusion nicely:

 

 

Not really. First, he confirms that he destroyed the ancient elves. Second, he confirms what I've already said about Bioware establishes as the character of the Inquisitor. Bioware does not give the Inquisitor the character to destroy millions of lives to restore the elves. Solas doesn't see that in the Inquisitors character, because the Inquisitor stands for restoring order - period. Solas will bring chaos in restoring the natural order, in restoring his people. 

 

The only people left to restore are the "modern" elves. The ancient elves... as per Solas's own words and by all the games lore - are all dead. The Veil destroyed their immortality. Made them mortal, and they perished with the passage of time. 

 

I still challenge anyone to bring forth this hidden cache of "ancient" elves Solas plans to restore. They don't exist. Solas is not lowering the Veil to restore the handful of "ancient" elves that survived in the temple of Mythal, or any handful that may have survived in some other way, like he did. 

 

Inquisition is the first game to make it clear that the elves see the world in a different way and that's because of a connection to the Fade that is unique to them. There's no other reason to do that than to make it clear that this is the reason many elves are called to Solas at the end of the game. Solas sees what the Veil did to the elves and he's going to restore them. They no longer exist as they should... nobody exists as they should... because the Veil is an artificial construct. Restoring the word will create a lot of chaos. Millions will die. Religions will be set into upheaval. Societies will crumble. Solas may even strike out in a war with the freed Evanuris that will cause massive damage all on its own. Elves, humanity, dwarves, qunari... their worlds will be turned upside down. 

 

Solas will prepare the "modern" elves that return to him for this chaos and for the return to their natural state. He will prepare them for a war with the Evanuris. There is no evidence for anything else. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Actually there are presumably still ancient elves there. He tells Abelas "There are other places, other duties. Your people yet linger." 

[Almostfaceman]

Actually there are presumably still ancient elves there. He tells Abelas "There are other places, other duties. Your people yet linger." 

 

They do still "linger"... as "modern" elves. Abelas will certainly be useful in a world "restored" by Solas. 

[renfrees]

*snip*

So, are you implying that the Dalish Inquisitor had not ever had a friend among their people? Because the option of asking to join Solas and him inquiring if they "would give the life of every friend they had ever known" is specific to an elven Inquisitors.

[Almostfaceman]

So, are you implying that the Dalish Inquisitor had not ever had a friend among their people? Because the option of asking to join Solas and him inquiring if they "would give the life of every friend they had ever known" is specific to an elven Inquisitors.

 

Again, we're talking about what clearly Bioware designs the character of the Inquisitor to be. Just like Shepard, the Inquisitor is not someone who can be a "villian" and choose to sacrifice millions. As illustrated in the video... Solas doesn't see the Inquisitor as that kind of person. None of the choices the Inquisitor can make illustrate that this could be in their character as well. 

 

If you would like to resort to head-canon of possible "friends" the Inquisitor had pre-story, you're reaching beyond what is actually in the story available to us as clues as to where the story is headed. 

[Aren]

Interesting. i looked it up and i see that source of claming that reason of Alamarri migration was Demon is Solas, by that it is unlikely that was Maker as it is said even Solas have no idea of such being existing.Any stronger demon would qualify as demons are a huge threat to society or even world especially if you don't have means to fight them like templars or another people that are specialized to fight demons.1 single desire demon that possessed,a child took over entire castle and destroyed village with ease and would have done much more damage if protagonist didn't show up to slain demon.   

but that was a tribe of thousands of people if not more,not just a small village

[renfrees]

Again, we're talking about what clearly Bioware designs the character of the Inquisitor to be. Just like Shepard, the Inquisitor is not someone who can be a "villian" and choose to sacrifice millions. As illustrated in the video... Solas doesn't see the Inquisitor as that kind of person. None of the choices the Inquisitor can make illustrate that this could be in their character as well. 

 

If you would like to resort to head-canon of possible "friends" the Inquisitor had pre-story, you're reaching beyond what is actually in the story available to us as clues as to where the story is headed. 

It's not about the Inquisitor and the option to become a villain. It's about consequences of Solas' plan, whether the Inquisitor joins in or not. His/her friends lives are forfeit in Solas' eyes, the question is if he/she would be partially responsible for their demise or not - this is what Solas don't want him/her to do, not the actual abetting.

[Aren]

Interesting. i looked it up and i see that source of claming that reason of Alamarri migration was Demon is Solas, by that it is unlikely that was Maker as it is said even Solas have no idea of such being existing.Any stronger demon would qualify as demons are a huge threat to society or even world especially if you don't have means to fight them like templars or another people that are specialized to fight demons.1 single desire demon that possessed,a child took over entire castle and destroyed village with ease and would have done much more damage if protagonist didn't show up to slain demon.   

I don't know what lands were,but the alamarri never returned there,only thing that is certain is that those are the western lands,the same lands untouched by the blights.

I doubt that a desire demon would have been so powerful and prbably after this whole time the entity is probably still there.

 

 

 

[Lulupab]

Gonna answer these two in same post.

Lots of people do precisely that, on a regular basis.
 
Justinia herself says that it could be the Maker's will in the Fade. She says something like "If you believe in Andraste and the Maker, the Anchor might be their gift. If you don't, nothing has changed." Paraphrased, obviously, but Justinia doesn't rule out the possibility that she was an agent of divine intervention.
 
Faith - belief in a deity or deities and/or their ability to affect reality - exists precisely because it can't be proven. A lot of people don't buy into it. Many look with scorn on believers, thinking them credulous fools. And others whole-heartedly believe that the skill that saved a dying man was a gift from some higher power. They brand unbelievers as short-sighted fools. One way or another, talking about real world examples here is dangerous. Politics, religion, and public fora are an explosive mix.
 
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. We're talking about a game, a fictitious world. This made-up world contains deities. The writers decide which gods are real, not players. For all we know, we'll find some ancient prophecy scribed in some ancient tome from the Divine Age saying that the Maker carved the Inquisitor's name on the Tablets of Destiny or whatever, and by so doing, fated the Inquisitor to recover the lost relic of a lost elven god-king.

Corypheus was a powerful mage in full control of Grey wardens mages who had immobilized the divine,under those condition in no way the Divine would have been capable to kick the Orb from his hand,people can call it bad writing or like German soldier said The Maker intervention.


this is usually the reference that i brought up for the beginning
http://forum.bioware...usly-contrived/
In no way the point of view of a divine intervetion, is delegitimated

and i also seriously doubt that Corypheus was that incompetent.

 
The plot could have done better, I agree.
 
The first time I was playing the game, I saw the Inquisitor as a distraction. He/she kinda opened the door loudly and that caused a distraction, enough to free one arm of Justinia.
 
There are many holes in claiming divine intervention. If maker is the pure benevolent god, then he made the Elves too. Unless people claim maker did not create the Elves. Solas could be agent of his will as well. Its clear maker has abandoned Thedas and he does not only work though "agents" who believe in him. That would make him a biased god, and a god cannot be ultimate good and biased at the same time.
 
As another note, people who give sole credit to god with surgeons save people, deserve to be slapped.

[Illegitimus]

Gonna answer these two in same post.


 
The plot could have done better, I agree.
 
The first time I was playing the game, I saw the Inquisitor as a distraction. He/she kinda opened the door loudly and that caused a distraction, enough to free one arm of Justinia.
 
There are many holes in claiming divine intervention. If maker is the pure benevolent god, then he made the Elves too. Unless people claim maker did not create the Elves. Solas could be agent of his will as well. Its clear maker has abandoned Thedas and he does not only work though "agents" who believe in him. That would make him a biased god, and a god cannot be ultimate good and biased at the same time.
 

 

So...what's the hole?  

[TheKomandorShepard]

but that was a tribe of thousands of people if not more,not just a small village

Doesn't matter, as i said if Desire demon which possessed Connor survived it would be capable inflicting massive havoc considering it was creating an army of undead.Then, we have stronger demons like Baroness, the Forbidden Ones, Nightmare demon and who knows what other demons live or lived in the fade.

 

 

 

I don't know what lands were,but the alamarri never returned there,only thing that is certain is that those are the western lands,the same lands untouched by the blights.

I doubt that a desire demon would have been so powerful and prbably after this whole time the entity is probably still there.

 

I wouldn't say demon is still there,demon could have been slain eventually either by part that left, other force or simply Tevinter empire if demon followed.Not necessarily desire demon, as i said before any stronger demon could qualify and desire demon could be capable to cause such havoc especially against unprepared opposition.

 

[Gervaise]

If it was really Solas' intention to restore the modern elves to their former state whilst retaining their current form, then I think the writers should have made that clearer.    In none of the conversations with him prior to Trespasser does he ever indicate that he sees the modern elves as his people.    Neither does Abelas.    He is emphatic that "You are not my People".   Yet Solas tells him that "Your People yet linger."  This can only mean one thing to Abelas, that there are other people out there somewhere like him and those who follow him.    They have survived until now in the same  way that Abelas and his followers have; by dropping into hibernation for the majority of the time, only to awaken when an alarm bell signals intruders to their refuge.   Many of them may well be in stasis in the inbetween world of the eluvians.     Because they are basically the same elves as they were, minus their connection to the Fade, they will survive the dropping of the Veil as it will return them to their full state.    

 

Modern elves are their descendants, separated from them by several thousand years of diluted breeding.   They still have vestiges of what they were, which results in a different make up to their blood from the other races, but they bodies will likely not survive the change because they have adapted to live in the current world.    A simple visible reminder of this is the fact that, for the most part, they have hair whilst every ancient elf we have encountered does not.      So it seems to me that the ancient ones are less material and more spiritual.     Solas always identifies more closely with spirits than anything else.    It may be that the modern elves that he is drawing to his side will survive the change as pure spirits,their current bodies having been destroyed, from which they can build back to a fuller existence, so to his mind he is restoring them to what they are meant to be.      Modern elves, though, will no longer exist, together with all the other races.      Given what a miserable existence the majority of them have, they may well think Solas' plan represent an improvement to their situation and that is why they are willing to go along with it, assuming of course that he has even bothered explaining the full plan to them, which I doubt.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They do still "linger"... as "modern" elves. Abelas will certainly be useful in a world "restored" by Solas. 

 

He can't possibly be talking about the modern elves, neither Solas nor Abelas see them as elvhen. 

[Illegitimus]

If it was really Solas' intention to restore the modern elves to their former state whilst retaining their current form, then I think the writers should have made that clearer.    I

 

Yeah, that's one of Fen'Harel's great strengths.  How straightforward and open he is.  I mean look how clear his usage of the expression "destroy the world" is.  

[Ghost Gal]

I'm not "delegitimizing" anything. I merely said its no longer right of conquest, and it isn't.

 

And under no circumstance or aspect one can claim humans have more "right" to rule Thedas than Elves do.

 

The dominant attitude in this thread can be summed up as, "Humans can do no wrong, and Elves can do no right."

 

No matter what you say or what the situation in Thedas is, people will move the goalposts so humans are always in the right or deserving of what they have/want, and elves are always in the wrong or undeserving of what it is that they want.