503 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghost Gal]

 

If it was really Solas' intention to restore the modern elves to their former state whilst retaining their current form, then I think the writers should have made that clearer.

 

Then the opposite holds true. If it was really Solas' intention to let the modern elves fry with the other races, he would have made that clear too.

 

But in Trespasser he goes into a lot of detail about how "The Veil took everything from the elves, even themselves," and how he wants to remove the Veil to restore what he took from the elves.

 

It's true that he doesn't necessarily see modern elves as "his people,"  but we see that the reason for that is they've been cut off from the Fade via the Veil; their magic, immortality, and "conscious connection to the Fade" is just as severed as the Tranquil's capacity to feel, dream, and perform magic is severed from the current Veiled world. 

 

I thought Solas made it pretty damn clear that the game plan was to remove the Veil so modern elves can be reconnected with the Fade and regain their lost magic, immortality, and "conscious connection to the Fade" (which I assume allows for minor empathic and telepathic abilities like what Cole displays) like partially empty batteries being filled with electricity.

 

Yet somehow everyone seems to choose to believe, "No, modern elves won't be any more positively affected by the Veil going down than humans, dwarves, or Qunari; they'd just fry like the rest of them and Solas would let modern elves burn along with humans, dwarves, and Qunari just to help the few dozen immortals in uthenera like Abelas."

 

If so, then what the hell is he doing this for? Why bother going to so much effort to change the whole world for just a few dozen people? The ancient elves can sustain themselves in eternal sleep, or go off to lands uncharted to start their own little colony of True Elves where they sleep, wake, interact, then sleep again. Putting in the effort to change the whole world filled with modern elves only really makes sense (and fits with what Solas tells the Inquisitor) if it's to benefit a whole world full of modern elves.

 

You must really want to see Solas as a monster to choose to look at it as, "He's going to destroy all four modern races just to restore the power of a few dozen sleeping ancient elves" rather than "removing the Veil will restore the modern elves to the status of ancient elves, and make the world a place where they can live outside human and Qunari shadows."

 

Good grief... I know Solas' decision to potentially burn the whole world to help one race is pretty unforgivable or hard to forgive for a lot of people (even though, hypocritically, humans have done it since the beginning of their time and no one bats an eye), but choosing to go the extra mile and interpret Solas' words to mean he intends to destroy all modern races just for a few ancient elves. That's just choosing to demonize him right there.

[Almostfaceman]

Good grief... I know Solas' decision to potentially burn the whole world to help one race is pretty unforgivable or hard to forgive for a lot of people (even though, hypocritically, humans have done it since the beginning of their time and no one bats an eye), but choosing to go the extra mile and interpret Solas' words to mean he intends to destroy all modern races just for a few ancient elves. That's just choosing to demonize him right there.

 

 

I have to agree. To me, the game is pretty straightforward in its storytelling. 

[Almostfaceman]

He can't possibly be talking about the modern elves, neither Solas nor Abelas see them as elvhen. 

 

Of course they don't see them as "elvhen". They aren't. Because Solas destroyed them when he raised the Veil. How do you restore them to their true nature? You lower the Veil. 

 

So, Solas sees that his actions have turned his people into something else. To restore them to his people, he lowers the Veil. The logic is so simple. It explains exactly why Solas tried to talk to the Dalish. It explains why Solas talked with Sera. It explains Solas's regret. It explains Solas risking a fight with the Evanuris. It explains why Solas, at the end of the game, is drawing all the "modern" elves to him that he can. 

 

Again, there's nobody else to save. The ancient elves are dead. As Solas has said.

[MisterJB]

If so, then what the hell is he doing this for? Why bother going to so much effort to change the whole world for just a few dozen people? The ancient elves can sustain themselves in eternal sleep, or go off to lands uncharted to start their own little colony of True Elves where they sleep, wake, interact, then sleep again. Putting in the effort to change the whole world filled with modern elves only really makes sense (and fits with what Solas tells the Inquisitor) if it's to benefit a whole world full of modern elves.

 

You must really want to see Solas as a monster to choose to look at it as, "He's going to destroy all four modern races just to restore the power of a few dozen sleeping ancient elves" rather than "removing the Veil will restore the modern elves to the status of ancient elves, and make the world a place where they can live outside human and Qunari shadows."

 

Good grief... I know Solas' decision to potentially burn the whole world to help one race is pretty unforgivable or hard to forgive for a lot of people (even though, hypocritically, humans have done it since the beginning of their time and no one bats an eye), but choosing to go the extra mile and interpret Solas' words to mean he intends to destroy all modern races just for a few ancient elves. That's just choosing to demonize him right there.

 

On the other hand, the reverse can just as likely be true.

The fact that even an elf supporter can't logically wrap his mind around over the concept of Solas destroying the world to save a few dozen does not necessarely mean that is not precisely what he plans.

 

All it means is that the criteria you use for determining what is or is not justifiable is simply in a very different place.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Shiara Lavellan:  Yeah, cause the ancient elves didn't totally suck... 

 

And you're right - I won't trade three species so one can get it's sparkle back.  

 

=====

 

You know, my newest playthrough was the first time I sided with the mages.

 

I took Solas.

 

He says:  "The Veil is gone."  

 

And you know what... that future is a totally s--thole.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Of course they don't see them as "elvhen". They aren't. Because Solas destroyed them when he raised the Veil. How do you restore them to their true nature? You lower the Veil. 

 

So, Solas sees that his actions have turned his people into something else. To restore them to his people, he lowers the Veil. The logic is so simple. It explains exactly why Solas tried to talk to the Dalish. It explains why Solas talked with Sera. It explains Solas's regret. It explains Solas risking a fight with the Evanuris. It explains why Solas, at the end of the game, is drawing all the "modern" elves to him that he can. 

 

Again, there's nobody else to save. The ancient elves are dead. As Solas has said.

 

If they were all dead, he wouldn't tell Abelas that his people yet linger. Because modern elves who linger are explicitly not his people. Also if they were all dead, he wouldn't have anyone to say that to. Abelas and the sentinels are ancient elves.

[renfrees]

*snip*

 

You must really want to see Solas as a monster 

He is a monster despite all his claims. His actions led to genocide twice - once directly, and once indirectly, but he holds responsibility for both. Whats more - he intends to do the same a third time. No amount of charm or wise words can make up for this.

[ComedicSociopathy]

A banter with Cole alludes to the fact that spirits turning into mortals isn't unprecedented and that Solas has seen this happen before. A method of increasing the population of the ancient elves would be just that. 

[Qun00]

I must point out that the dialogue doesn't change for a Dalish IQ.

He still says "your world will die" and "the return of my people means the end of yours". Truth is that Solas and Abelas think alike. Modern elves aren't their people.

Shiara likes to imagine that we'll find out that his plan is all flowers and rainbows, which would be... very anticlimatic. It would take away the urgency in stopping him.

[Illegitimus]

I must point out that the dialogue doesn't change for a Dalish IQ.

He still says "your world will die" and "the return of my people means the end of yours". 

 

Which doesn't necessarily mean every single Dalish elf will die.  Most of them, sure.  And their culture will entirely be swept away.  

[sniper_arrow]

The thing is, we still don't know the actual effects if the Veil is removed. We only have Solas's word for it and we're not even sure if he really knows what he's talking about. 

 

I won't call Solas a monster (yet) since he tells the Inquisitor that he hopes he's wrong with his plan. But, he's pretty close to it. For him, it's more of a do or die situation for him. He's pretty desperate to undo his mistake and he may not care if every one will die as an end result.  

 

I'm definitely sure he'll encounter obstacles in the future. Also, I will compare him to Morrigan come DA4: the tables will be turned on him by Mythal.

[Almostfaceman]

If they were all dead, he wouldn't tell Abelas that his people yet linger. Because modern elves who linger are explicitly not his people. Also if they were all dead, he wouldn't have anyone to say that to. Abelas and the sentinels are ancient elves.

 

Solas admits to the death of his people. He admits it's his fault, because he raised the Veil via magic. 

 

Now, how would a dead people linger? 

 

As something less than themselves... because of a powerful spell. 

 

This is not hard to figure out. 

 

Abelas has only escaped the effects of the raising of the Veil by being in a very specialized situation. One that does not apply to the overwhelming majority of elves. 

 

So, he tells Abelas that his people yet linger... and they do. They linger on the fringes of their natural state torn from the Fade by the Veil. And Solas has plans for them. This is why Solas tried to talk with the Dalish. This is why Solas spoke with Sera, pointing out to her the unique nature that was hers by birthright, whether or not she wanted to embrace this nature. 

 

You seriously want me to believe that Solas is going to restore his people by doing something with the handful of ancient elves from the temple of Mythal? Really? That's what you're hanging your hat on? Because it doesn't fit any of the clues the game gives us. It doesn't explain the designers spending money and time on making this special lingering effect the elves still have with the Fade, apparent to us. 

[Ashagar]

Well there are the elves that entered that sleep that the ancient elves did for whom I wouldn't be surprised there were guardians for those elves resting place like the temple that awake when the place is threatened and some of the other temples might have similar guardians to the temple of Mythal given we've only visited two of them.

 

There are a variety of reasons why there might be ancient elves surviving in remote corners of the world though I wonder even if that was all true would they be enough to rebuild and defend a civilization especially given the enemies the ancient elves made themselves.

[Gervaise]

I am very pro-elf and would like nothing better than see their situation improved from what it currently is but that is not what Solas was saying to me.    He states that my world will die.   That is the world that I am currently living in, with all its multitude of creatures in addition to the other 3 races.     He also says it will mean an end to my people.    My people are modern elves, specifically the Dalish but I also count the city elves among them.  

 

Abelas says that I am not one of His People.    Yet he does recognise Solas as one of his people.   Solas says "Your People yet linger."   Abelas says "Elvhen such as you."     That is no getting away from the fact that both of them regard themselves as different from the elven Inquisitor.

 

Solas didn't say he destroyed them completely but he took their immortality.    That is why Abelas and company have to go back to sleep each time or eventually they will age and die.   While in uthenera they can draw on the Fade to sustain them.    Presumably it is more difficult to do this with the Veil in place but not impossible.    One of the writings you can translate, presumably written by Abelas himself.  It specifically says: "We are trapped" (that is elves like Abelas trapped on the wrong side of the Veil)  "The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost."    (the modern elves are the ones born here in the material world, as opposed to the ancient ones who had their origins in the Fade)  "or why so many of their elders weep as they enter uthenera".    (The elders are the ones like him that the ones born outside the Fade do not understand).     

 

So it is clear that they are different in makeup and those like Abelas who had their origins before the Veil will likely survive its removal.    Those who have never had that connection but only have lingering magic in the blood will not.      May be Solas does hope that some will survive but he didn't hold out that promise to my Lavellan.      This is why I say that everything Solas said to me, together with my rejection by Abelas, leads me to believe that my friends and family will die when Solas removes the Veil.     If that was not the case, then he should have said so, explicitly.    He did not.     The fact that elves are racing off to join him indicates nothing.    He probably hasn't even told them of his full plan.    He may have said he is giving them the opportunity to be as they once were, which as I state above probably means them becoming spirits in the Fade, which he thinks is an improvement and they aren't aware of the truth of the matter.

 

Of course it could be that as with so many other conversations, the script was written with a human Inquisitor in mind and overlooked the fact of how it would seem to an elven one but without confirmation of this from the writers, I can only go back what is said and that is that my Dalish elf, along with his kin, will die in the fires of chaos that his action will bring.  

[Qun00]

Which doesn't necessarily mean every single Dalish elf will die. Most of them, sure. And their culture will entirely be swept away.

Destroying the world doesn't usually imply survivors.

And he doesn't deny it is so when the Inquisitor asks "Why bother disrupting the Qunari plot if you're going to destroy the world regardless?'

[Gervaise]

He does.   His reply is "Because I am not a monster.......If they must die, let them die in comfort."     Basically lull everyone into a false sense of security before he nukes them.   One minute they are happy and content in the peace  he masterminded and then whoosh, they are gone, not feeling anything because he's hoping it will be that quick.     Our only hope at present is that he doesn't have the power source to do this.    His orb is gone.    This is why I feel he is drawing the elves to him to help in the search for a replacement and like as not it is going to be in Tevinter, not only because that is where the knife was placed but also because Dorian mentioned having seen similar foci in old Tevinter pictures.      What I hope is that it is not going to be a case of all elves either working for him or the qunari and thus in opposition to our new PC.   Even if I can't play an elf (modern) I don't want to be constantly having to kill them.

[Aeratus]

This is why I say that everything Solas said to me, together with my rejection by Abelas, leads me to believe that my friends and family will die when Solas removes the Veil.     If that was not the case, then he should have said so, explicitly.    He did not.

 

It's because the developers want some tension going into DA4. If Bioware wrote the script to have Solas say, explicitly, "I'm going to take down the veil and I don't know exactly what is going to happen," that doesn't create any urgency for DA4. In other words, it's to sell DA4 better and make more money for Bioware. 

 

In any event, Bioware loves plot twists and the unexpected. So trying to predict based on dialogue with uncertain in-world accuracy that can be interpreted differently is ultimately meaningless. But based on the information we have, "everyone" will be fine:

 

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see."

 

Actually I think I like this veil-less world. "One day the magic will come back. All of it." means that everyone can become mages, which is more fair. Right now, only those who have what would be considered genetic gifts can become mages. "The shadows will part" also seems to mean fewer bad things.

[Dean_the_Young]

They do still "linger"... as "modern" elves. Abelas will certainly be useful in a world "restored" by Solas. 

 

Except both Abelas and Solas distinguish 'their people' from 'modern elves.' Abelas explicitly disclaims the Dalish as 'his people', while Solas doesn't see the mundane elves as 'real' at all (Cole's insight) and passes on multiple occasions to identify himself with 'modern' elves, be they Dalish or city elf.

 

There's also the 'every friend you've ever had' remark he'll give, even to a Dalish- which certainly implies his 'world must die' plan will have every (Dalish) friend a (Dalish) Inquisitor had will also die. Or else the line wouldn't justify itself.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

I thought Solas made it pretty damn clear that the game plan was to remove the Veil so modern elves can be reconnected with the Fade and regain their lost magic, immortality, and "conscious connection to the Fade" (which I assume allows for minor empathic and telepathic abilities like what Cole displays) like partially empty batteries being filled with electricity.

 

Yet somehow everyone seems to choose to believe, "No, modern elves won't be any more positively affected by the Veil going down than humans, dwarves, or Qunari; they'd just fry like the rest of them and Solas would let modern elves burn along with humans, dwarves, and Qunari just to help the few dozen immortals in uthenera like Abelas."

 

If so, then what the hell is he doing this for? Why bother going to so much effort to change the whole world for just a few dozen people? The ancient elves can sustain themselves in eternal sleep, or go off to lands uncharted to start their own little colony of True Elves where they sleep, wake, interact, then sleep again. Putting in the effort to change the whole world filled with modern elves only really makes sense (and fits with what Solas tells the Inquisitor) if it's to benefit a whole world full of modern elves.

 

Because there are just a few dozen 'real' people in all of Thedas. You apparently didn't notice, but Solas is a racist.

 

Like, a big racist. An amiable bigot, to be sure, but Solas is a mix of ethno-centric, cultural chauvenist, and mage-supcremacist.

 

 

When the super-insightful spirit companion who can read your mind can peg Solas as not seeing everyone else as people- and killing one of his last/only friends because he had the gall to see city elves as people who should be given a chance to live- there's a rather significant identity gap.

 

Solas is off to tear down the Veil because the Veil is what's dooming the last few dozen (or however many) people left on Thedas. Everyone else is not-people.

 

 

 

 

You must really want to see Solas as a monster to choose to look at it as, "He's going to destroy all four modern races just to restore the power of a few dozen sleeping ancient elves" rather than "removing the Veil will restore the modern elves to the status of ancient elves, and make the world a place where they can live outside human and Qunari shadows."

 

Good grief... I know Solas' decision to potentially burn the whole world to help one race is pretty unforgivable or hard to forgive for a lot of people (even though, hypocritically, humans have done it since the beginning of their time and no one bats an eye), but choosing to go the extra mile and interpret Solas' words to mean he intends to destroy all modern races just for a few ancient elves. That's just choosing to demonize him right there.

 

 

Alternatively, we see Solas as a monster because he tells and reveals his intention to be one. He speaks, and so reveals himself to be- not a temporal inversion of we are convinced he is, and thus twist his words.

 

There's no 'potententially' burn the world to help one people- that is his repeated point. Solas makes big scary and signficant words- 'word will burn' , 'raw chaos,' and 'death.' Lots of death- and consistently.

 

What Solas doesn't make is any claim of special exemption for, well, anyone- including by race. All your friends you've ever known are expected to die- even if you are a Dalish, Nor is there any claim, by anyone, that Solas's plan will give magic to any elf already living. Maybe their descendants will be born with it in the new world- but Solas is very clear on 'death', including for modern elves, and makes no offer of transformation for them.

 

 

If Solas had made such an offer, interpreting his words to argue about the imminent mass death of modern elves would be a hint of pre-bias. But he did not, and in light of his other demonstrated beliefs, from disassociation with modern elves to his uncaveated dismissal of mundanes (including elves) as equivalent to Tranquil, believing Solas's highly destructive plans to be destructive to modern elves is character consistency.

 

 

 

 

(even though, hypocritically, humans have done it since the beginning of their time and no one bats an eye)

 

 

No one does? Even you? You are human, are you not?

 

Or are we talking about in-game characters? Leliana certainly cares. There's even a whole political movement within the Chantry that's uncomfortable about the fall of the Dales, which is small time compared to Southern Thedas's opposition to Tevinter, who themselves were pipsqeaks compared to Solas's ambitions. So it seems there's plenty of Humans in-universe who have and would oppose even lesser abuses by humans.

 

Which begs a question, when in Thedasian history has any human organization attempted what Solas intends? Tevinter, scum that it is, merely enslaved the elves- it didn't attempt genocide of the mundanes.

 

Of course, even that doesn't address why or even how 'humans' can be held collectively responsible for something sub-groups of humans do. Maybe those dasterdly human slaves are just as much to blame for the evils of Tevinter enslaving the elves, just because they're human? Do humans in Dragon Age share a hive mind or something, that allows everyone to be responsible for everything since the beginning of their time?

 

Though that might be irrelevant if we're comparing apples to oranges here. Humans are a species of many individuals. Solas is an individual. In a topic focused on an individual, why should there be equal focus and condemnation of a different species on a different topic? Isn't an equivalence between the intentions of a single person and the past of an entire species of individuals a false equivalence?

 

 

 

 

Alternatively, simplifying to a single question-

 

 

Do you understand what hypocrisy is?

[Dean_the_Young]

Destroying the world doesn't usually imply survivors.

 

Sure it does. Infact, the only times that it doesn't are the times when destroying the world is a literalism in that life is literally unsustainable.

 

Otherwise, 'destroying the world' usually refers to the social/climatal norm, not the death of absolutely everyone. Nuclear armeggedon was one such spectre, but there would have been survivors.

 

Destroying an army leaves scattered survivors and prisoners. A destroyed city can have refugees. A destroyed civilization can be  conquered and occupied with most of the population intact.

 

The reason we expect Solas's destruction of the world to be more lethal is because he tells and indicates that frequent references to mass death.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's because the developers want some tension going into DA4. If Bioware wrote the script to have Solas say, explicitly, "I'm going to take down the veil and I don't know exactly what is going to happen," that doesn't create any urgency for DA4. In other words, it's to sell DA4 better and make more money for Bioware. 

 

In any event, Bioware loves plot twists and the unexpected. So trying to predict based on dialogue with uncertain in-world accuracy that can be interpreted differently is ultimately meaningless. But based on the information we have, "everyone" will be fine:

 

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see."

 

Actually I think I like this veil-less world. "One day the magic will come back. All of it." means that everyone can become mages, which is more fair. Right now, only those who have what would be considered genetic gifts can become mages. "The shadows will part" also seems to mean fewer bad things.

 

Why do you think that light is good?

 

Reach back to elven mythology. Who was the god associated with light?

[Eliantariel]

With everything that Solas says including the "I can save you for now" it is pretty clear for me that at least Solas thinks that his actions are going to cost many or all lives, including all "modern" elves and the inquisitor him/herself. I do think he can only guess and does not know it for sure but assumes the worst. 

 

And I have a Solavellan playthrough and Solas is my favourite companion by now. But I have no doubt that he is willing to sacrifice all other races/people to correct what he thinks went wrong and to restore the world as he knows it. This world is just a mistake for him. 

 

He does say to Abelas that there are more like him - who knows? Maybe there are more ancient elves hidden or sleeping somewhere and maybe Solas intends to let the civilization grow by spirits gaining bodies. 

 

As a player I do like to see the veil coming down. 

[ZhengAn]

I'm just wondering...for those who hate or dislike Solas, do you hate him because of his action and character(ignorant, destroy world, liar, etc) which is more of a in-game, or because of, well for example, maybe you think his character is badly written, or something similar.

From what I seen in this thread, most of the hate come from the former reason, and despite the fact that I like Solas as a character, I'm glad to see there are people who hate the character to guts. because he is intentionally written to be controversial and to be disliked. What I would not want to see is if people dislike the character thinking his characterisation is badly done, or he gets plot armor, or some other reason that I can't think of.

Just like I hate Morrigan, but it is because I disapprove of a lot of her actions, consider them as nonsense and disagree her values, but at the same time I do agree that her character is at least nicely done.

[Eliantariel]

Sorry if I answer your question despite not hating Solas (quite the opposite in fact). But I don't agree that he was written to be disliked.

 

From the videos I saw with low approval he is more aggressive and I can see how his snarky remarks will lead people to dislike him only by that. But with higher approval he is calm and polite, caring and charming. He is really shining in a different light if you compare it. 

 

His actions are hard to stomach - but that doesn't mean he was written to be disliked. Instead, at least in the core game - he is useful and helping the inquisition - we only learn later about his real motives which might change peoples mind about him but before that if you don't like him I think it is just people disliking his attitude maybe together with the impression from low approval dialog and when they learn about the truth. 

 

But honestly- sometimes we might even hate or dislike a character without even really knowing why - just because he or she rubbed us the wrong way. Doesn't mean that this character was written to be disliked. 

[renfrees]

I'm just wondering...for those who hate or dislike Solas, do you hate him because of his action and character(ignorant, destroy world, liar, etc) which is more of a in-game, or because of, well for example, maybe you think his character is badly written, or something similar.

From what I seen in this thread, most of the hate come from the former reason, and despite the fact that I like Solas as a character, I'm glad to see there are people who hate the character to guts. because he is intentionally written to be controversial and to be disliked. What I would not want to see is if people dislike the character thinking his characterisation is badly done, or he gets plot armor, or some other reason that I can't think of.

Just like I hate Morrigan, but it is because I disapprove of a lot of her actions, consider them as nonsense and disagree her values, but at the same time I do agree that her character is at least nicely done.

Imho, as a character and antagonist Solas is brilliantly written, one of the best Bioware came with so far. I can even empathize with his deceit, given the situation - while trying to correct my underestimation I certainly wouldn't want to admit as being partially responsible for the destruction of Conclave and chaos that ensued. But his goals and inability to learn from past actions combined with the scale of effect it transpires into, is what makes me condemn him. Even my romanced Lavellan can't put him above her family, friends and every person she came to respect, and I, as a player, won't put him above all other wonderful characters of this universe I came to love.