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Why the hate for Solas?


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#376
Dean_the_Young

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Sorry if I answer your question despite not hating Solas (quite the opposite in fact). But I don't agree that he was written to be disliked.

 

From the videos I saw with low approval he is more aggressive and I can see how his snarky remarks will lead people to dislike him only by that. But with higher approval he is calm and polite, caring and charming. He is really shining in a different light if you compare it. 

 

His actions are hard to stomach - but that doesn't mean he was written to be disliked. Instead, at least in the core game - he is useful and helping the inquisition - we only learn later about his real motives which might change peoples mind about him but before that if you don't like him I think it is just people disliking his attitude maybe together with the impression from low approval dialog and when they learn about the truth. 

 

But honestly- sometimes we might even hate or dislike a character without even really knowing why - just because he or she rubbed us the wrong way. Doesn't mean that this character was written to be disliked. 

 

I agree that Solas is not written to be disliked.

 

Made-to-hate characters are those like Howe or what's-his-nuts, the Tranquil rapist. Or even Meredith. Antagonistic, unpleasant, aggressive, unpardonable, and ugly.

 

Solas, by contrast, is not most of those things. In fact, the only one I'd argue is unpardonable, but the game is so heavy with the sympathy stick that it barely touches on how the Breach, and everything associated with that chaos? That was according to Solas's plan. When Inquisition talks about a world in chaos, it's the post-Breach aftermath is what it's referring to, and that's the start of the frame of reference of the Breach (and, later, the bad future).

 

Instead of directly addressing that, Solas gets hit with a number of sympathy sticks. He's a partial protagonist against the antagonist of the DLC, his backstory is as heroic good intentions, and he assures us that he's going to feel really really bad about killing everyone before the player is offered a chance to declare their intent to save him.

 

 

Solas isn't made-to-hate. Solas is made to be the woobie, destroyer of worlds.


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#377
Ashagar

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Solas is truly likable, polite and very well written which makes the evil he's planning a more disturbing contrast to his personality. You don't have to be dishonorable, vile, vicious and cruel to be a villain.


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#378
midnight tea

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@Shiara Lavellan:  Yeah, cause the ancient elves didn't totally suck... 

 

And you're right - I won't trade three species so one can get it's sparkle back.  

 

=====

 

You know, my newest playthrough was the first time I sided with the mages.

 

I took Solas.

 

He says:  "The Veil is gone."  

 

And you know what... that future is a totally s--thole.  

 

No, he does not say "the Veil is gone" he says "the Veil is shattered".

 

Plus, ask yourself - if the Veil is truly entirely gone, how come there are numerous Veil rifts in the Redcliffe castle? 

 

Details. Pay attention to them.

 

I mean, if Solas wanted the Veil to torn down the way Corypheus has done it, wouldn't he logically work with him and not with the Inquisition?



#379
Dean_the_Young

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No, he does not say "the Veil is gone" he says "the Veil is shattered".

 

Plus, ask yourself - if the Veil is truly entirely gone, how come there are numerous Veil rifts in the Redcliffe castle? 

 

Details. Pay attention to them.

 

 

While I agree that the bad future still has part of the Veil, this can also be a distinction without a difference.

 

The difference between 'shattering' and 'removing' the veil- if there is a difference, and it's not different words for the same effect- will only be relevant if Solas's version is better for the people of Thedas. For a lot of people, this rests on the idea that Solas's version will be neat and orderly, with a complete removal of the Veil painlessly merging real world and fade and without the demons that the Breach and bad future had and with that survival and .

 

This, unfortunately, goes a bit against Solas's words. 'Raw chaos', 'the death of every friend you've ever had,' 'world of tranquil,' 'world must die' and all that.

 

On the other hand, Solas's version could be worse than Corypheus's bad future. In the bad future, civilization survives: a dystopic, tyranicle one under the Elder One, but a civilization none the less. Submission doesn't (necessarily) mean extinction, mundanes have a place, and a major demonic heirarchy under the Nightmare is subordinate to Corypheus. There's a tyrant in control, but at least he's in control.

 

In both the bad future and Solas's intended future, the real world and Fade are clearly merging, which we know is Solas's goal. The effects are also consistent with what Solas warns- an extremely deadly world with pockets of survival.

 

If Solas's version of burning the world is worse for the people involved (which is to say, the people of Thedas)- then there's no point in disputing the difference between a shattered veil and a removed one. They're both equivalently bad at best- or Solas's is worse, since he's aiming to do more harm than Corypheus.

 

 

I mean, if Solas wanted the Veil to torn down the way Corypheus has done it, wouldn't he logically work with him and not with the Inquisition?

 

 

If we ignore what else Solas wants, sure. if not, no.

 

Corypheus didn't bring down the Veil- the Breach was Solas's trap, intended to kill Corypheus while unlocking the orb. Bringing down the Veil is only part of Solas's plan- controlling what occurs afterwards is also important, and it's here that Corypheus and Solas have incompatible aims. They both want both the orb and the anchor to advance their goals, but Solas wants elf-mage supremacy and Corypheus wants Tevinter 3.0.

 

Solas and Corypheus working together would require them to have a basis to work together. Corypheus has something Solas wants- the orb- but Corypheus isn't going to give that up. Corypheus wants the anchor, but Solas isn't going to give that to him. Even without it, Corypheus has gambits that can help him win- Solas may need Corypheus to trust him, but Corypheus doesn't need Solas in any respect.

 

Even if he could make contact with the Venatori, Solas isn't going to be trusted enough to make a meaningful backstab unless he offers Corypheus the keys to victory, and probably not even then- and if he does that, Corypheus will simply win. If Corypheus wins, Solas loses.


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#380
Aeratus

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The difference between 'shattering' and 'removing' the veil- if there is a difference, and it's not different words for the same effect- will only be relevant if Solas's version is better for the people of Thedas. 

 

There is a big difference, according to what is hinted in the lore. Veil breach (including shattering, which is creating many and/or large breaches) only removes a physical barrier between the fade and the thedas. However, these breaches do not necessarily remove a "metaphysical" barrier between the fade and thedas. This metaphysical barrier is what is currently preventing spirits from properly manifesting in the real world without becoming corrupt, and preventing inhabitants of the real world from receiving the life energies of the fade for indefinite sustenance. 

 

And Solas's version might not be better, but it might be. Until we see for sure, it is a moot point. In Solas' dialogue, he mentions spirits and inhabitants cooperating together in the real world. So maybe it will be better. 



#381
Gervaise

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Solas definitely wasn't written to be hated in the main game.   You might find his preaching and superior attitude over certain issues annoying but certainly not enough to hate him.    Mind you if you are playing the sort of Inquisitor that Solas dislikes may be the reaction is different.    My Inquisitors always get on well with him, he says he respects them and they respect him.   Which makes what follows in Trespasser all the harder to take.   If his aims had changed since we last saw him it wouldn't be so bad, but to be told that it was always his aim to tear down the Veil and destroy the world and to that extent Corypheus had actually helped save it by not dying at the Conclave was barely believable.   The only thing that reduced the shock was that the old epilogue had already partly prepared us for this by revealing that he had given his orb to Corypheus.    However, you still tended to think it must have been by accident rather than design; surely he couldn't have deliberately done so.  Yet it turned out he had.    

 

What I do wonder about is the statement on the Wiki that claims that in an earlier incarnation he was much more obviously deceitful and the trickster, more in keeping with the legend of Fen'Harel.    Then apparently someone changed their mind and decided to make him more a sympathetic character.    I wonder if they had kept to the original design people might have found his deception easier to take because they wouldn't feel so betrayed.      


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#382
In Exile

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Solas, by contrast, is not most of those things. In fact, the only one I'd argue is unpardonable, but the game is so heavy with the sympathy stick that it barely touches on how the Breach, and everything associated with that chaos? That was according to Solas's plan. When Inquisition talks about a world in chaos, it's the post-Breach aftermath is what it's referring to, and that's the start of the frame of reference of the Breach (and, later, the bad future).

 

I don't think that's true. While it's clear that Solas expected Corypheus to nuke himself, the actual breach in the sky and it's consequences is clearly not what he intended. Even if we say that it was reasonably foreseeable to him that a breach would form if Corypheus nuked himself, it's pretty clear Solas would have closed it automatically. It was entirely his fault, but not his plan.

Otherwise, though, I do agree with you (and your general evaluation of Solas). 



#383
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In both the bad future and Solas's intended future, the real world and Fade are clearly merging, which we know is Solas's goal. The effects are also consistent with what Solas warns- an extremely deadly world with pockets of survival.

 

That's not what Solas suggests at all. Remember, the lack of Fade was the original state of the world, and there's nothing to suggest it was a dead apocalyptic hellscape. It's clear Solas thinks the Veil will lead to death on an absolutely massive scale, but it's not clear it will alter the world in the same way. 



#384
Aren

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Solas is truly likable, polite and very well written which makes the evil he's planning a more disturbing contrast to his personality. You don't have to be dishonorable, vile, vicious and cruel to be a villain.

Like the Architect



#385
Dean_the_Young

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There is a big difference, according to what is hinted in the lore. Veil breach (including shattering, which is creating many and/or large breaches) only removes a physical barrier between the fade and the thedas. However, these breaches do not necessarily remove a "metaphysical" barrier between the fade and thedas. This metaphysical barrier is what is currently preventing spirits from properly manifesting in the real world without becoming corrupt, and preventing inhabitants of the real world from receiving the life energies of the fade for indefinite sustenance. 

 

And Solas's version might not be better, but it might be. Until we see for sure, it is a moot point. In Solas' dialogue, he mentions spirits and inhabitants cooperating together in the real world. So maybe it will be better. 

 

Not if more people die- which is the only relevant metric.

 

The metaphysical difference- and the world physics that come later- are irrelevant to the immediate costs, and those are the only relevant metrics with the comparison of Solas's future and the Bad future because those are the only ones that we can have. 

 

In the bad future, the destruction of the Fade is ongoing- it's not the end result, but the interim. The problem in the bad future isn't 'the Veil is only partly destroyed'- the problem is 'holy **** people are dead and dying.'

 

That's the intent of Solas's future as well. Even if spirits aren't hurt in Solas's merger- and there's no claim made by Solas or anyone else that they wouldn't be, making this another headcanon claim invented by the fanbase- there's still the massive issue of killing all the friends you've ever had (and everyone else) in order to get rid of the world without tranquil.

 

That- the unnecessary death and suffering as the world burned in raw chaos- is why this is a bad thing to be avoided. The exact mechanics of the raw chaos- or the laws of meta-physics three years later- are irrelevant.



#386
Aeratus

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In the bad future, people are dying because Corypheus is conquering the world with his army commanded by that big-ass spider demon. That's why people are dying. 

 

On the other hand, I have never seen a clear and convincing explanation as to why people would be dying left and right in Solas' veilless world. As mentioned earlier, the casualties would mostly be a byproduct of social upheaval. There is no Corypheus conquering everything. 

 

So, obviously a clear difference between Solas' veilless' veilless world and the bad "future."



#387
Dean_the_Young

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I don't think that's true. While it's clear that Solas expected Corypheus to nuke himself, the actual breach in the sky and it's consequences is clearly not what he intended. Even if we say that it was reasonably foreseeable to him that a breach would form if Corypheus nuked himself, it's pretty clear Solas would have closed it automatically. It was entirely his fault, but not his plan.

Otherwise, though, I do agree with you (and your general evaluation of Solas). 

 

Why is it clear that Solas would have closed it automatically? His goal is ruinous choas to set the world aflame- the issue with Breach was that Solas wasn't able to exploit it, not it's effects or human (or elven) suffering. Solas's kindness is to not let people suffer pointlessly- but at that point, there would be a point.

 

The argument that the consequences of the Breach weren't Solas's intention hinge on the twin assumptions that he would have quickly lowered the veil (since that was his plan) and that doing so quickly and completely would have been less harmful than the Breach's effects.

 

The issue there is 'how does Solas expect people to die en-mass if completely lowering the Veil doesn't have that sort of effect?' Something is going to have to kill Thedasians in-mass- and if it's not spirits getting confused as their realm and senses are fundamentally body-slammed, then what?

 

In light of a lack of indicated alternatives- and little canonical reason to believe Solas's plan won't affect the spirits in a negative way- already provided explanations and demonstrations make sense. Spirits get confused by the real world, and by human emotions. Creating a lot of suffering when you slam Thedas and the Fade back together offers both.

 

(For the record- my three guesses? Darkspawn getting empowered, Titans waking, or everyone self-immolates when magic bursts uncontrollably through everyone.)

 

 

That's not what Solas suggests at all. Remember, the lack of Fade was the original state of the world, and there's nothing to suggest it was a dead apocalyptic hellscape. It's clear Solas thinks the Veil will lead to death on an absolutely massive scale, but it's not clear it will alter the world in the same way. 

 

There's nothing to suggest that the Bad Future was going to be a dead apocalyptic hellscape forever either- or that it was a hellscape everywhere. We never even got out of the Redcliffe area.

 

So say Solas's plot burns the world- what happens when you burn a region in a forestfire? It looks like a hellscape- and a few years later, it recovers. Fits well with Solas's 'wait while the world burns' plan.

 

Regardless, the point is the pockets of survivors here and there- which is the inevitable occurance of Solas's genocide of the world-of-tranquil if it has any survivors at all. Ancient elves here and there, pockets of survivors who make it through the chaos, and so on.



#388
Dean_the_Young

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In the bad future, people are dying because Corypheus is conquering the world with his army commanded by that big-ass spider demon. That's why people are dying. 

 

Corypheus's army is under his control, and had already conquered. They weren't exactly doing systemic genocide just for the sake of it. Killing the people who refuse to convert, sure, but there's no real reason for him to be killing the countryside.

 

People were dying because of the uncontrolled and angry spirits that roamed the countryside outside of Corypheus's control.

 

 

On the other hand, I have never seen a clear and convincing explanation as to why people would be dying left and right in Solas' veilless world.

 

 

The 'why' is easy- because Solas tells us to expect that. If you can't see that as a clear and convincing, especially in light of other Veil issues, you never will.

 

The 'how' is in question.

 

There is a standing answer- that bringing real world and fade together is traumatic to spirits and drives many mad. The arguments that this won't happen tend to rely on more projection than any arguments or claims Solas has made.

 

 

 

As mentioned earlier, the casualties would mostly be a byproduct of social upheaval. There is no Corypheus conquering everything. 

 

 

There is, however, Solas restoring his vision of the new elven empire of true elfyness.

 

And also the prospect of the Elven gods breaking free.

 
And Titans waking up.

 

And the issue of spirits adjusting to the new world.

 

And let's not even touch on the big mystery of the Blight and Darkspawn.

 

 

 

So, obviously a clear difference between Solas' veilless' veilless world and the bad "future."

 

 

Not really. We only got to see a brief glimpse of the bad future a short time in- it could have been on it's way to being as bad as Solas's.



#389
midnight tea

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While I agree that the bad future still has part of the Veil, this can also be a distinction without a difference.

 

The difference between 'shattering' and 'removing' the veil- if there is a difference, and it's not different words for the same effect- will only be relevant if Solas's version is better for the people of Thedas. For a lot of people, this rests on the idea that Solas's version will be neat and orderly, with a complete removal of the Veil painlessly merging real world and fade and without the demons that the Breach and bad future had and with that survival and .

 

This, unfortunately, goes a bit against Solas's words. 'Raw chaos', 'the death of every friend you've ever had,' 'world of tranquil,' 'world must die' and all that.

 

Yet he also says "if they must die, I'd rather they die in comfort". That assumes that even if many Theodsians will die, the death might as well catch them unaware - after all, "the world burning in raw chaos" doesn't mean "people running around in fire, screaming". You also have to take into consideration that that was plan A - the one which relied on him reclaiming the orb and the Anchor to himself; two things that are now gone.

 

Anyway - have you considered that he may as well just try and magnify his magic and turn everyone to stone, like he did with the Qunari in Trespasser? It seemed like a rather sudden and painless death. Or perhaps they'd all just lose consciousness and fall asleep when the Fade pours into the world.

 

In any event: we don't really know what will happen now - in fact, Solas himself seems to be somewhat uncertain; he says "I will save the elven people, even if this world must die" and he tells a disliked inky that his plan "may" destroy Thedas.

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, Solas's version could be worse than Corypheus's bad future. In the bad future, civilization survives: a dystopic, tyranicle one under the Elder One, but a civilization none the less. Submission doesn't (necessarily) mean extinction, mundanes have a place, and a major demonic heirarchy under the Nightmare is subordinate to Corypheus. There's a tyrant in control, but at least he's in control.

 

... Um, the Elder One ISN'T in control. If you listen to comments and read codexes you know that most of the population that has survived shattering of the Veil has been sacrificed in blood rituals that had brought more demons or red lyrium harvesting, the Blight is absolutely everywhere and time magic is ripping the world further to shreds. The world is about to collapse and apparently Cory is growing desperate - otherwise why do you think he keeps ordering Alexius to undo the past and go back in time prior to Inquisitor stealing the Anchor from him? And it's implied at the very end of the quest that Inquisitor and Dorian have barely missed the destruction of probably everything, with Elder One "coming for you, me... for everyone" according to Alexius.

 

Sooo.. what control are you talking about?

 

 

 

In both the bad future and Solas's intended future, the real world and Fade are clearly merging, which we know is Solas's goal. The effects are also consistent with what Solas warns- an extremely deadly world with pockets of survival.

 

 

Solas never says that the world with Fade in it is extremely deadly - he mentions that it is dangerous, but only because the Fade is just like other forces of nature. In fact, in Thedas, it's very much the force of nature that was naturally occurring and connected to the world for far longer than the Veiled world has existed.

 

It's the Veiled world that is artificial and apparently no less deadly: Solas has created it as a last resort against the Evanuris and their destructive lust for power; it did save the world, but at a terrible cost. Aside from diminishing everyone by cutting them from the Fade, the elves haven't been really saved - seems more like their death has been postponed, as being cut away from magic messes with how they actually are and causes them to go extinct the more the magic is feared, forgotten and fading.

 

In fact, given that the Veil causes people to fear the Fade and distort their understanding of it, until rarer, gentler spirits are getting increasingly rare and only demons remain, it seems to have created a vicious circle that will eventually sap all life from both sides of the world. Add to that the increasing dangers of everlasting Blight and you may yet get yourself a question if it's really so good to save the world that is eventually going to slowly, but painfully, bleed itself to death, or risk violent change which at least some would be able to survive?

 

If it's indeed a question that will occur, then Inquisitor - and any other protagonist - stands pretty much before the same dilemma Solas stood before he's decided to create the Veil. Most of the world may be gone, but at least some may survive, so they could grow and later save themselves before the cycle repeats itself.

 

 

 

If Solas's version of burning the world is worse for the people involved (which is to say, the people of Thedas)- then there's no point in disputing the difference between a shattered veil and a removed one. They're both equivalently bad at best- or Solas's is worse, since he's aiming to do more harm than Corypheus.

 

That you don't know, because we don't yet know what exactly Solas means by "destruction" (given that he's already destroyed one world, but that didn't mean utter annihilation of everything) or "returning of the world of the elves", especially given that we know that elves are very close kin to spirits.

 

If his aim is to return most people to their spiritual states (given that it's pretty much certain that most - if not all - living, sentient beings are spirits made flesh), so they could later be reborn to the world in which the magic and Fade flows freely, then his plan and world is profoundly different from that of Corypheus.

 

Corypheus after all didn't really care about the world of Thedas or what happens to the Fade on the route to achieve his mad dream about reaching the Black City: Solas on the other hand wishes to minimize harm on BOTH sides. Corypheus' Breach and dark Redcliffe future brought only death and twisted spirits to demons: and given that Solas cares about spirits not to be twisted, it's extremely unlikely he'd do anything that even resembles the shattering of the Veil or anything else Corypheus has done to achieve his goals.

 

 

 

Corypheus didn't bring down the Veil- the Breach was Solas's trap, intended to kill Corypheus while unlocking the orb. Bringing down the Veil is only part of Solas's plan- controlling what occurs afterwards is also important, and it's here that Corypheus and Solas have incompatible aims. They both want both the orb and the anchor to advance their goals, but Solas wants elf-mage supremacy and Corypheus wants Tevinter 3.0.

 

No, it wasn't. The subsequent explosion was supposed to kill Corypheus, not the Breach - the violence of the explosion appears to have been a shock for him; and given that it occurred after the ritual of Corypheus' was disrupted by future Inquisitor, we can't really say if Corypheus has predicted any of that himself. The Breach itself appears to be accidental, just like Herald himself/herself appears to be accidental.

 

Also - what's with the assumption that Solas wants elf-mage supremacy? He stood against elf-mage supremacy long before he created the Veil, which earned him the mantle of Fen'Harel, so... wut?

 

Not once Solas mentions that he wants the return of Elvenhan proper; in fact he destroyed it to free the elven race and readily tells Dorian that Elvenhan was as bad as Tevinter and that nobody should be romanticizing ancient elves. Then he tells him that if Dorian wishes to make amends for past transgressions, he should "free the slaves of all races who live in Tevinter today", instead of making any sort of demands about returning stolen elven glory or anything of the sort.

 

No - he mourns the knowledge lost and that the Veil "took everything from the elves, even themselves" and is horrified by the fact that he's sundered all other people from the Fade, hence they remind him of Tranquil: mostly unable to realize themselves or grasp the complexity of the world or the Fade, living in an unnatural, diminished world that makes them fear parts of themselves and all the potential that lies within, shortening their life-span, slowly killing dwarves and elves and making the Fade riddled with demons. So he wants to return the world to its proper, pre-Veil state - NOT the elf-mage supremacy itself.

 

 

 

Solas and Corypheus working together would require them to have a basis to work together. Corypheus has something Solas wants- the orb- but Corypheus isn't going to give that up. Corypheus wants the anchor, but Solas isn't going to give that to him. Even without it, Corypheus has gambits that can help him win- Solas may need Corypheus to trust him, but Corypheus doesn't need Solas in any respect.

 

That's the thing - they don't have the basis to work together. Solas outright deems Corypheus as a madman, who in his arrogance and delusions of godhood tries to reach his goals by whatever means necessary and cares little for how he does it and how much he hurts the world in the process.

 

Worse - he readily uses blight magic, which he's thoroughly corrupted himself with - and that is a massive NO-NO in Solas' book. He is clearly terrified of the Blight and thinks it's not a power that can be wielded or manipulated, much less something anyone should corrupt self with (hence he doesn't have much nice to say about the Grey Wardens as well, even if he gives them credit for buying everyone, including himself, some time) - which is probably a correct assumption, given that he's likely seen much more powerful Evanuris corrupt themselves with it and almost destroy the world in the result. He's created the Veil in part to save people from Evanuris unleashing the horror of Blight upon the world - so why should he want a future tainted by a Blight-corrupted magister?

 

 

Still, let's assume that Solas indeed doesn't care how the Veil is removed and if the world is Blighted and demon-infested in the result - considering how desperate Corypheus is to find a way to cross the Veil, you really think he wouldn't try and seek the knowledge out from its creator (if he knew he still walked about), given that he marshals the last of his forces to march on Temple Of Mythal, where he seeks to obtain the less specific knowledge of a dead, elvhen goddess? After losing Adamant and Halamshiral (something he didn't really need orb for) he's so desperate that he scours all the elvhen ruins he could find, and that's even though he obviously disdains 'the rattus'.

 

Eventually he's pushed into such desperation that he risks re-opening the Breach, only to lose control of the orb (showing how tentative his control over it actually is) and let it being yanked from his grasp by Inquisitor.

 

What then Solas does? Shouldn't he just swoop in, stop the Inquisitor (it would be really easy, given that Inky would totally not expect that and assuming from a cutscene, where he's shown to appear much earlier than anyone else on Inky's side, he was always nearby, no matter if we take him to the party or not), now that Corypheus is gone, the orb is still intact and the Breach should allow him to easily shatter the Veil, if that was indeed how he intended to do it? Nope, he lets Inquisitor sacrifice the orb in order to seal the Breach for good.

 

It suggests that whatever Solas is planning to do is likely more complex and very different from what Corypheus has done, if he went as far as let go his orb - an act that he most have known will cost him dearly, as he's forced to steal Mythal's power and likely kills Flemeth in result



#390
ZhengAn

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Sorry if I answer your question despite not hating Solas (quite the opposite in fact). But I don't agree that he was written to be disliked.

 

From the videos I saw with low approval he is more aggressive and I can see how his snarky remarks will lead people to dislike him only by that. But with higher approval he is calm and polite, caring and charming. He is really shining in a different light if you compare it. 

 

His actions are hard to stomach - but that doesn't mean he was written to be disliked. Instead, at least in the core game - he is useful and helping the inquisition - we only learn later about his real motives which might change peoples mind about him but before that if you don't like him I think it is just people disliking his attitude maybe together with the impression from low approval dialog and when they learn about the truth. 

 

But honestly- sometimes we might even hate or dislike a character without even really knowing why - just because he or she rubbed us the wrong way. Doesn't mean that this character was written to be disliked. 

 

I agree that Solas is not written to be disliked.

 

Made-to-hate characters are those like Howe or what's-his-nuts, the Tranquil rapist. Or even Meredith. Antagonistic, unpleasant, aggressive, unpardonable, and ugly.

 

Solas, by contrast, is not most of those things. In fact, the only one I'd argue is unpardonable, but the game is so heavy with the sympathy stick that it barely touches on how the Breach, and everything associated with that chaos? That was according to Solas's plan. When Inquisition talks about a world in chaos, it's the post-Breach aftermath is what it's referring to, and that's the start of the frame of reference of the Breach (and, later, the bad future).

 

Instead of directly addressing that, Solas gets hit with a number of sympathy sticks. He's a partial protagonist against the antagonist of the DLC, his backstory is as heroic good intentions, and he assures us that he's going to feel really really bad about killing everyone before the player is offered a chance to declare their intent to save him.

 

 

Solas isn't made-to-hate. Solas is made to be the woobie, destroyer of worlds.

 

Solas is truly likable, polite and very well written which makes the evil he's planning a more disturbing contrast to his personality. You don't have to be dishonorable, vile, vicious and cruel to be a villain.

 

Alright. When I said, 'intentionally written to be controversial and to be disliked', I don'y mean, the writer make him pure evil and hateful like howe, or he must only be absolutely hateful that are not likable at all. May because my english is bad, but I never meant that way. If it does seem that way, I apologize. 

 

I have watched and read few of patrick weekes, that he 'tried to take every step that I could to humanize him', so yeah. However, No matter what approval you had, it is still reveal that he hide his truth identity from you, he is the one who gave the orb, or his agent who lead cory to the orb, and ultimately, the one who said 'possibly will destroy your world' to save his elven people in trespasser. Yes, he might be in a milder attitude, but that does not change his action and words. With such actions and words settled I can hardly believe he is not 'intentionally written to be controversial and to be disliked', writer I believe, expected, and do, for example in low approval setting, tried to make him even more hateful. Yes, of course the writer do also intentionally write him to be likable, uh or am I using the wrong wording again, then maybe 'tried to take every step that I could to humanize him' would be better, which even made a lot of players including me like him more despite his action and words, but that does not change his...a bit of antagonistic intention and so.

 

Under that post, while I was referring and asking those who hate Solas, so I sort of made a simple but yes maybe inaccurate assumption that most of them are under the low approval condition, and that's why I use that phrase and the word. I hope I made it clear.


Modifié par ZhengAn, 29 novembre 2015 - 11:19 .


#391
Dean_the_Young

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Yet he also says "if they must die, I'd rather they die in comfort". That assumes that even if many Theodsians will die, the death might as well catch them unaware - after all, "the world burning in raw chaos" doesn't mean "people running around in fire, screaming". You also have to take into consideration that that was plan A - the one which relied on him reclaiming the orb and the Anchor to himself; two things that are now gone.

 

Anyway - have you considered that he may as well just try and magnify his magic and turn everyone to stone, like he did with the Qunari in Trespasser? It seemed like a rather sudden and painless death. Or perhaps they'd all just lose consciousness and fall asleep when the Fade pours into the world.

 

In any event: we don't really know what will happen now - in fact, Solas himself seems to be somewhat uncertain; he says "I will save the elven people, even if this world must die" and he tells a disliked inky that his plan "may" destroy Thedas.

 

 

In paragraph order (or else I won't be able to make the quotes)-

 

-Solas says 'die in comfort' in the context of why he interfered with the Qunari plot. He wasn't making an argument, or claim, to painless euthanasia. Solas's position is that innocent not-people shouldn't die or suffer before it's necessary- not that they shouldn't suffer or die at all.

 

-Addressed on the above, and by Solas's claim that his Breach plan was to wait in the Fade while Thedas burned in the chaos. He wasn't going to be around to medusa everyone- the chaos is what was going to hurt them.

 

-You're mis-reading. Solas is laying a conditional, not an ambiguity. His uncertainty is on the worth of his mission, not whether the world will die as a result of it.

 

 

 

 

... Um, the Elder One ISN'T in control. If you listen to comments and read codexes you know that most of the population that has survived shattering of the Veil has been sacrificed in blood rituals that had brought more demons or red lyrium harvesting, the Blight is absolutely everywhere and time magic is ripping the world further to shreds. The world is about to collapse and apparently Cory is growing desperate - otherwise why do you think he keeps ordering Alexius to undo the past and go back in time prior to Inquisitor stealing the Anchor from him? And it's implied at the very end of the quest that Inquisitor and Dorian have barely missed the destruction of probably everything, with Elder One "coming for you, me... for everyone" according to Alexius.

 

Sooo.. what control are you talking about?

 

 

 

...the demons he's in control of via his army, of course. The demons outside his control are outside his control, which is also what I said.

 

Cory wants Alexius to figure out how to get the anchor for the same reasons he's always wanted the anchor- his victory is incomplete without it.

 

Unless you mean 'destruction of probably everything' to mean 'Corypheus is going arrive and kill your asses,' then Alexius's warning probably means that Corypheus is going to arrive and kill your asses. Not the literal end of the world.

 

 

 

Solas never says that the world with Fade in it is extremely deadly - he mentions that it is dangerous, but only because the Fade is just like other forces of nature. In fact, in Thedas, it's very much the force of nature that was naturally occurring and connected to the world for far longer than the Veiled world has existed.

 

It's the Veiled world that is artificial and apparently no less deadly: Solas has created it as a last resort against the Evanuris and their destructive lust for power; it did save the world, but at a terrible cost. Aside from diminishing everyone by cutting them from the Fade, the elves haven't been really saved - seems more like their death has been postponed, as being cut away from magic messes with how they actually are and causes them to go extinct the more the magic is feared, forgotten and fading.

 

In fact, given that the Veil causes people to fear the Fade and distort their understanding of it, until rarer, gentler spirits are getting increasingly rare and only demons remain, it seems to have created a vicious circle that will eventually sap all life from both sides of the world. Add to that the increasing dangers of everlasting Blight and you may yet get yourself a question if it's really so good to save the world that is eventually going to slowly, but painfully, bleed itself to death, or risk violent change which at least some would be able to survive?

 

If it's indeed a question that will occur, then Inquisitor - and any other protagonist - stands pretty much before the same dilemma Solas stood before he's decided to create the Veil. Most of the world may be gone, but at least some may survive, so they could grow and later save themselves before the cycle repeats itself.

 

 

Solas does tell us that the merging of the Fade and Thedas will be extremely deadly, hence his numerous references to burning the world by doing so. The world with the fade after the merging may not be too bad (maybe)- but that's irrelevant for the people in the raw chaos in between them.

 

(Also, naturally occuring force of nature isn't really a defense. The analogy of a dammed river comes to mind. Safe before, safe after, catastrophic in the interim.)

 

Paragraph two- irrelevant, because Solas's previous intentions are irrelevant to the lives of people alive now and the suffering of his plan.

 

Paragraph three- invented argument. Neither Solas, or anyone else in the situation, argues that Solas's plan is to save the world as opposed to Solas's stated intentions. Or, as an addition, that Solas's plan will somehow stop everlasting blight. This is (yet another) case of a fan-invented argument to justify Solas's otherwise contemptable position.

 

Paragraph four- is simply silly. The protagonist is not faced with a delimma that the world will face certain (or even likely) death if they do not do this. Solas's plan is, at no point, framed as 'for the greater good of Thedas,' or as the only option to address certain problems, or even as a solution to said problems.  It isn't even presented as a more reliable or better approach to the problems either- the analogy of taking a shotgun to someone's face to cure them of cancer comes to mind.
 

 

 

That you don't know, because we don't yet know what exactly Solas means by "destruction" or "returning of the world of the elves", especially given that we know that elves are very close kin to spirits.

 

If his aim is to return most people to their spiritual states (given that it's pretty much certain that most - if not all - living, sentient beings are spirits made flesh), so they could later be reborn to the world in which the magic and Fade flows freely, then his plan and world is profoundly different from that of Corypheus.

 

Corypheus after all didn't really care about the world of Thedas or what happens to the Fade on the route to achieve his mad dream about reaching the Black City: Solas on the other hand wishes to minimize harm on BOTH sides. Corypheus' Breach and dark Redcliffe future brought only death and twisted spirits to demons: and given that Solas cares about spirits not to be twisted, it's extremely unlikely he'd do anything that even resembles the shattering of the Veil or anything else Corypheus has done to achieve his goals.

 

 

 

We don't need to know exactly what Solas means to know enough, and to disqualify much of what you say here.

 

We know that Solas's aim is not to return most people to their spiritaul states because Solas's open admission is that he expect most people to die. We know that Solas does not believe or expect reincarnation of any meaningful sort, because (1) his dialogue on his dead friend in his loyalty quest, and (2) he never makes such a claim.

 

We  can, from Cole's insight, know that Corypheus really did believe he benefiting the world. We also know Solas's goal is not your desire, since the optimal way to minimize harm to both sides is to not destroy the world (both worlds, really) that have come to exist since his nap.

 

The argument that Solas would be extremely unlikely to do anything that would negatively affect spirits ignores that he (1) is willing to negatively affect people he cares about in the name of his ambitions (Falessan, the Inquisitor), (2) assumes that he isn't willing to negatively affect spirits in the way he is other people he cares about, and (3) that Solas actually understands all the mechanics of his actions this time any more than he did last time.

 

This is yet another series of arguments Solas doesn't make to defend Solas's actions while ignorring the points Solas does make.

 

 

 

No, it wasn't. The subsequent explosion was supposed to kill Corypheus, not the Breach - the violence of the explosion appears to have been a shock for him; and given that it occurred after the ritual of Corypheus' was disrupted by future Inquisitor, we can't really say if Corypheus has predicted any of that himself. The Breach itself appears to be accidental, just like Herald himself/herself appears to be accidental.

 

Also - what's with the assumption that Solas wants elf-mage supremacy? He stood against elf-mage supremacy long before he created the Veil, which earned him the mantle of Fen'Harel, so... wut?

 

Not once Solas mentions that he wants the return of Elvenhan proper; in fact he destroyed it to free the elven race and readily tells Dorian that Elvenhan was as bad as Tevinter and that nobody should be romanticizing ancient elves. Then he tells him that if Dorian wishes to make amends for past transgressions, he should "free the slaves of all races who live in Tevinter today", instead of making any sort of demands about returning stolen elven glory or anything of the sort.

 

No - he mourns the knowledge lost and that the Veil "took everything from the elves, even themselves" and is horrified by the fact that he's sundered all other people from the Fade, hence they remind him of Tranquil: mostly unable to realize themselves or grasp the complexity of the world or the Fade, living in an unnatural, diminished world that makes them fear parts of themselves and all the potential that lies within, shortening their life-span, slowly killing dwarves and elves and making the Fade riddled with demons. So he wants to return the world to its proper, pre-Veil state - NOT the elf-mage supremacy itself.

 

 

 

The Breach is a consequence of the explosion, and we know from the DLC that Solas's intention was to enter the Fade and wait things out as raw chaos occured.

 

Solas wants elf-mages because that what real people are to him: elves, of a certain culture, who are all mages. Elves who are not mages (like Sera) are not only the furthest thing from what they were supposed to be, but mundanes in general are why he compares modern Thedas to a world of Tranquil and doesn't even see them as people (Cole's insight). In order to do this, Solas is going to assume godlike powers and massacre just about every rival to his cherished group in the process of saving them- that's pretty much 'supremacy' at the extreme end. Solas doesn't need to support to the elven gods of old to be comfortable with a Thedas that is dominated by elven mages.

 

No matter his rhetoric, Solas's actions and ambitions- restoring 'his people' by massacring the rest and controlling the physics of the world- is elf-mage-supremacy. It may not be his calling card, but it is what he is- just like how Solas doesn't need to be a hostile bigot to be a huge racist against mundanes and not even seeing them as real people. That's racism in practice, even if it's not racism in annoying proclomation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's the thing - they don't have the basis to work together. Solas outright deems Corypheus as a madman, who in his arrogance and delusions of godhood tries to reach his goals by whatever means necessary and cares little for how he does it and how much he hurts the world in the process.

 

 

In case you missed it- there were huge ironic parallels between Solas and Corypheus. Solas is, in a word, a hyprocite. On many accounts.

 

 

 

Worse - he readily uses blight magic, which he's thoroughly corrupted himself with - and that is a massive NO-NO in Solas' book. He is clearly terrified of the Blight and thinks it's not a power that can be wielded or manipulated, much less something anyone should corrupt self with (hence he doesn't have much nice to say about the Grey Wardens as well, even if he gives them credit for buying everyone, including himself, some time) - which is probably a correct assumption, given that he's likely seen much more powerful Evanuris corrupt themselves with it and almost destroy the world in the result. He's created the Veil in part to save people from Evanuris unleashing the horror of Blight upon the world - so why should he want a future tainted by a Blight-corrupted magister?

 

Still, let's assume that Solas indeed doesn't care how the Veil is removed and if the world is Blighted and demon-infested in the result - considering how desperate Corypheus is to find a way to cross the Veil, you really think he wouldn't try and seek the knowledge out from its creator (if he knew he still walked about), given that he marshals the last of his forces to march on Temple Of Mythal, where he seeks to obtain the less specific knowledge of a dead, elvhen goddess? After losing Adamant and Halamshiral (something he didn't really need orb for) he's so desperate that he scours all the elvhen ruins he could find, and that's even though he obviously disdains 'the rattus'.

 

Eventually he's pushed into such desperation that he risks re-opening the Breach, only to lose control of the orb (showing how tentative his control over it actually is) and let it being yanked from his grasp by Inquisitor.

 

 

 

Really not sure who you're arguing against here, besides your own strawman. You raised a question about how wouldn't Solas logically align with Corypheus if he intended the breach. I gave reasons why it wouldn't be logical. You... continue to add reasons why Solas, as a character wouldn't.

 

Strange tact, but let's continue. Ahem.

 

Corypheus would certainly take advantage of Solas's information if he knew of it. That doesn't mean he would work with Solas as equals or give Solas an opportunity to stop it.

 

 

 

 

What then Solas does? Shouldn't he just swoop in, stop the Inquisitor (it would be really easy, given that Inky would totally not expect that and assuming from a cutscene, where he's shown to appear much earlier than anyone else on Inky's side, he was always nearby, no matter if we take him to the party or not), now that Corypheus is gone, the orb is still intact and the Breach should allow him to easily shatter the Veil, if that was indeed how he intended to do it? Nope, he lets Inquisitor sacrifice the orb in order to seal the Breach for good.

 

It suggests that whatever Solas is planning to do is likely more complex and very different from what Corypheus has done, if he went as far as let go his orb - an act that he most have known will cost him dearly, as he's forced to steal Mythal's power and likely kills Flemeth in result

 

 

 

No, it really suggests that you're ignoring cutscene flow to justify a lot of invention. The Inquisitor magically grabs the orb in the climatic battle. The Inquisitor has a dramatic pause as the anchor and orb synchronize in glow before releasing remarkable power to close the new breach. The orb drops significantly and without its power glow, then Corypheus is gone for good. Then rocks fall, no one dies, and the the orb is found in fragments later... but Solas is dissolate not at the orb's parts, but what was lost.

 

Narrative implication- the Inquisitor used the power of the orb to close the breach in a dramatic finale. Then it broke, but Solas's real concern was the power. Indication for Solas- he missed his chance to swoop, because he was expecting to be handed the orb with its power included afterwards.

 

It suggests nothing about Solas's initial intention for the breach.



#392
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There is a standing answer- that bringing real world and fade together is traumatic to spirits and drives many mad. The arguments that this won't happen tend to rely on more projection than any arguments or claims Solas has made.

...

Solas does tell us that the merging of the Fade and Thedas will be extremely deadly, hence his numerous references to burning the world by doing so. The world with the fade after the merging may not be too bad (maybe)- but that's irrelevant for the people in the raw chaos in between them.

 

First, as to what Solas "says," he can mean a lot of things. Also, as I mentioned earlier, if you view it from a writer's perspective, the reasonable conclusion is that Solas's dialogue was written in an exaggerated manner in order for there to be a plot hook into DA4.

 

Secondly, what's so traumatic? And what's so deadly?

 

It is a reasonable view on lore that spirits can't handle the real world only because of the veil. Without the veil, spirits can handle the real world just fine, as in the time before the veil.  

 

What's so deadly? We've seen people step into the fade without any problem. We also saw how Sera made some "oh ****" comments when entering the fade....and that's all there was to it. 

 

Merging the real world and the fade (as opposed to forcibly putting an inhabitant of one into the other) would only help the inhabitants of each side adapt to the conditions of the other.

 

And the world burn in the raw chaos? Maybe some of the grass will become less green and turn brown due to climate change. That's all I can see.



#393
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Actually, I think I misread what you wrote. I now see that you are referring to the specific act of merging being traumatic/deadly.

 

In this regard, you are potentially right. But it is ultimately speculative to a degree. I don't think even Solas would know what the physics would be (would we need an expert in Thedas physics to answer this question?). 

 

But, on the other hand, sometimes it takes a fire to rejuvenate the land (https://en.wikipedia...ki/Fire_ecology) Maybe what Solas means by "burn in the raw chaos" is exactly this, by analogy. 

 

So if the end result is good, then the means can be justified in some circumstances. And I have already posited that the end result is acceptable to inhabitants of both the fade and the real world in being able to adapt.



#394
Qun00

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Actually, I think I misread what you wrote. I now see that you are referring to the specific act of merging being traumatic/deadly.

In this regard, you are potentially right. But it is ultimately speculative to a degree. I don't think even Solas would know what the physics would be (would we need an expert in Thedas physics to answer this question?).

But, on the other hand, sometimes it takes a fire to rejuvenate the land (https://en.wikipedia...ki/Fire_ecology) Maybe what Solas means by "burn in the raw chaos" is exactly this, by analogy.

So if the end result is good, then the means can be justified in some circumstances. And I have already posited that the end result is acceptable to inhabitants of both the fade and the real world in being able to adapt.


Then there would be no threat and no reason to stop Solas, which would be ultimately anticlimatic.

He deceived us before the events of Trespasser, yes. And that has already served its purpose.

It isn't an excuse to start acting like Solas never means anything he says literally, that there's always a hidden meaning and thus you can twist any sentence into whatever you'd like it to be.
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#395
Dean_the_Young

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Actually, I think I misread what you wrote. I now see that you are referring to the specific act of merging being traumatic/deadly.

 

In this regard, you are potentially right. But it is ultimately speculative to a degree. I don't think even Solas would know what the physics would be (would we need an expert in Thedas physics to answer this question?). 

 

But, on the other hand, sometimes it takes a fire to rejuvenate the land (https://en.wikipedia...ki/Fire_ecology) Maybe what Solas means by "burn in the raw chaos" is exactly this, by analogy. 

 

So if the end result is good, then the means can be justified in some circumstances. And I have already posited that the end result is acceptable to inhabitants of both the fade and the real world in being able to adapt.

 

Honest question here- do you consider yourself a Solas fan? Because it doesn't seem like you pay much attention to what he says or believes.

 

Solas does not use the expression of 'burn the world in raw chaos' as a metaphor or analogy of a forest fire to rejuvinate the land. Solas uses a phrase that is used repeatedly across Dragon Age Inquisition in the same context and way it is used elsewhere: a situation of suffering for everyone, especially the innocent. Solas does not make a claim that his action is for any benefit of the world at large- he will disclaim there being any honor in his path to a Dalish Inquisitor who seeks to join him and his guilt issue is centered around awareness that his path is neither necessary or for the greater good. And Solas most certainly does not believe the inhabitants of the real world will be able to adapt, because he expects them to die.

 

This is important, because this is raised at multiple points with Solas. In Masked Empire he kills his own subordinate, friend, and fellow ancient elf (one of 'his' people) for refusing to go along with the plan after Felassan has affection and faith in the modern elves. He raises the euthenasia comparison of letting Thedas live comfortably before they die by his plan rather than the Qunari's. Cole is able to have the insight that Solas's doubts which center around the people of Thedas being real people and having lives that matter, which changes everything.

 

We also have Solas telling us that not only does he expects the world to die, but that includes all the people we consider friends, to die as well. When those people are, all things considered, some of the most powerful and adaptable people on the continent.

 

We can certainly have a spirited discussion about whether Solas's plan to kill most of the elves of Thedas is worth lowering the veil and allowing future generations of survivors to practice his favorite hobby freely. Ends justify the means and all that. But we're going to have to discuss what Solas actually raises- not what you invent for Solas to say since it sounds less damning than what he actually says.

 

If you intend to ignore what Solas does say, and invent things he never says, what's the point of even discussing Solas in the first place?



#396
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Honest question here- do you consider yourself a Solas fan? ...

 

Solas does not use the expression of 'burn the world in raw chaos' as a metaphor or analogy of a forest fire to rejuvinate the land. Solas uses a phrase that is used repeatedly across Dragon Age Inquisition in the same context and way it is used elsewhere: a situation of suffering for everyone, especially the innocent. Solas does not make a claim that his action is for any benefit of the world at large- he will disclaim there being any honor in his path to a Dalish Inquisitor who seeks to join him and his guilt issue is centered around awareness that his path is neither necessary or for the greater good. And Solas most certainly does not believe the inhabitants of the real world will be able to adapt, because he expects them to die.

 

As an initial matter, that analogy was meant to be provocative, and I would acknowledge its shortcomings. But in my defense, I would say that others have said less reasonable things that what I have wrote.

 

To answer your question, I like Solas in general, to a moderate amount. But I am speaking in favor of him only because I think he has been misunderstood by many players. Furthermore, some people here keep bashing Solas for reasons that are entirely unwarranted. 

 

As shown in the quest "Here lies the abyss," Solas' fear is dying alone (i.e., dying without his people). Solas obviously loves "his people" very much and has been weighed down by guilt in what he has done to them. But what exactly is "his people"? Solas' true personal journey, which even he is not aware of, is discovering who really are his people. Lavellan has swayed his view, although not nearly quite enough for him to abandon his plans. 

 

It is not too late for Solas to recognize modern Thedas as "his people." Mythal recognizes modern elves as her "people." However, Mythal has lived with modern Thedas. Solas has not. He just woke up a few years ago, and found a world completely foreign. When Solas woke up, he wasn't even able to comprehend what it mean to be "real." After his experience with Cole, he has gained a better understanding that what is current real maybe isn't so bad.

 

If Solas recognizes modern Thedas as "his people," he will show compassion. What is painful is that he is close to this, but not quite there yet.   

 

What players don't understand is that Solas had (originally) a legitimate perspective to consider that the modern inhabitants of thedas are intrinsically different from his people. As I wrote in an earlier response, if you (your player character) were sudden put in a world where everyone is a tranquil (including your character himself/herself, who now speaks in emotionless monotone), you would feel like something is wrong. This is the same type of feeling that Solas has. The world is amiss, and your natural compulsion would to fix the world and make everyone non-tranquil. However, it is difficult for players to understand Solas' view because we, as real people, do not have any experiences living as a spirit, and cannot relate to Solas. But the fact that we cannot easily relate to Solas does not mean we should judge him unfairly. 

 

Then there would be no threat and no reason to stop Solas, which would be ultimately anticlimatic.

 

For now, there needs to be a reason to stop Solas, in order to drive the plot. 



#397
midnight tea

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In paragraph order (or else I won't be able to make the quotes)-

 

-Solas says 'die in comfort' in the context of why he interfered with the Qunari plot. He wasn't making an argument, or claim, to painless euthanasia. Solas's position is that innocent not-people shouldn't die or suffer before it's necessary- not that they shouldn't suffer or die at all.

 

-Addressed on the above, and by Solas's claim that his Breach plan was to wait in the Fade while Thedas burned in the chaos. He wasn't going to be around to medusa everyone- the chaos is what was going to hurt them.

 

-You're mis-reading. Solas is laying a conditional, not an ambiguity. His uncertainty is on the worth of his mission, not whether the world will die as a result of it.

 

Spoilered for lenght:

Spoiler


#398
Dean_the_Young

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As an initial matter, that analogy was meant to be provocative, and I would acknowledge its shortcomings. But in my defense, I would say that others have said less reasonable things that what I have wrote.

 

That's a pretty damning self-defense.

 

 

 

To answer your question, I like Solas in general, to a moderate amount. But I am speaking in favor of him only because I think he has been misunderstood by many players. Furthermore, some people here keep bashing Solas for reasons that are entirely unwarranted. 

 

 

If 'some people' is an indirect way of referring to me, please address me directly and we can discuss specific points that I have actually raised.

 

If 'some people' refers to people other than me, still please address me directly when you're replying or talking to me, rather than strawman me with things I did not say.

 

I will, of course, try to extend the same courtesy to you and do my best not to tie you to arguments you are not, in fact, making.
 

 

 

As shown in the quest "Here lies the abyss," Solas' fear is dying alone (i.e., dying without his people). Solas obviously loves "his people" very much and has been weighed down by guilt in what he has done to them. But what exactly is "his people"? Solas' true personal journey, which even he is not aware of, is discovering who really are his people. Lavellan has swayed his view, although not nearly quite enough for him to abandon his plans. 

 

It is not too late for Solas to recognize modern Thedas as "his people." Mythal recognizes modern elves as her "people." However, Mythal has lived with modern Thedas. Solas has not. He just woke up a few years ago, and found a world completely foreign. When Solas woke up, he wasn't even able to comprehend what it mean to be "real." After his experience with Cole, he has gained a better understanding that what is current real maybe isn't so bad.

 

If Solas recognizes modern Thedas as "his people," he will show compassion. What is painful is that he is close to this, but not quite there yet.   

 

 

Fine and dandy.

 

Now, what does any of that have to do with the topic and posts you were replying to?

 

 

 

What players don't understand is that Solas had (originally) a legitimate perspective to consider that the modern inhabitants of thedas are intrinsically different from his people. As I wrote in an earlier response, if you (your player character) were sudden put in a world where everyone is a tranquil (including your character himself/herself, who now speaks in emotionless monotone), you would feel like something is wrong. This is the same type of feeling that Solas has. The world is amiss, and your natural compulsion would to fix the world and make everyone non-tranquil. However, it is difficult for players to understand Solas' view because we, as real people, do not have any experiences living as a spirit, and cannot relate to Solas. But the fact that we cannot easily relate to Solas does not mean we should judge him unfairly. 

 

 

How is judging and condemning Solas's limitations and inability to recognize people as people, not a fair judgement? He's wrong, by his own realization. He's going ahead with it anyways.

 

The simplest description for someone who does something bad, despite knowing that it is bad, is that they are a bad person. Solas is not alone in getting creeped out by other living people who live in ways that disturb and creep us out. Most of us don't turn to mass homicide and eugenics as a solution.

 

 

The objection most people I've noticed in this thread have is that Solas's solution isn't to make Tranquil non-Tranquil. Solas's solution to the Tranquil Delimma is to kill the Tranquil so he doesn't have to look at them anymore. Condemning him harshly for this is completely fair if we would likewise condemn people who murder (or rape or otherwise victimize) the Tranquil.



#399
Dean_the_Young

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-snip-

 

I was going to give you a polite thank you for your response and pass on continuing because of length alone, but then I actually tried reading what you wrote.

 

Your response meanders from somewhere between possibly misunderstanding the conversation you were responding to to willfully misrepresenting what you were replying to. I've read (and possibly written) worse attempts to nit-pick an argument to death, but not many, and few so pointlessly long or with such a passing regard to source material. Even had I the time, I wouldn't have the faith in intellectual integrity to bother responding in full.

 

I almost feel guilty that you spent who knows how long writing all that, when I spent far less thinking of how to simplify this post, but that's kind of the point. Feel free to keep the last argument, declare victory, and otherwise respond again to take the last word and proclaim your intellectual superior argument(s) and about how I'm running away. Whether or not you believe it, I assure you you'll have the last word if you respond- I'll just be ignoring you in the meantime until I forget who you are. which will probably be a few days.

 

I suppose I should commend you- you're the first person in quite some time who's bored me so quickly.

 

Cheers,

 

Dean



#400
AlleluiaElizabeth

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I was going to give you a polite thank you for your response and pass on continuing because of length alone, but then I actually tried reading what you wrote.

 

Your response meanders from somewhere between possibly misunderstanding the conversation you were responding to to willfully misrepresenting what you were replying to. I've read (and possibly written) worse attempts to nit-pick an argument to death, but not many, and few so pointlessly long or with such a passing regard to source material. Even had I the time, I wouldn't have the faith in intellectual integrity to bother responding in full.

 

I almost feel guilty that you spent who knows how long writing all that, when I spent far less thinking of how to simplify this post, but that's kind of the point. Feel free to keep the last argument, declare victory, and otherwise respond again to take the last word and proclaim your intellectual superior argument(s) and about how I'm running away. Whether or not you believe it, I assure you you'll have the last word if you respond- I'll just be ignoring you in the meantime until I forget who you are. which will probably be a few days.

 

I suppose I should commend you- you're the first person in quite some time who's bored me so quickly.

 

Cheers,

 

Dean

Whether you believe her argument coherent and relevant or not, you could have been a lot less rude with that response, Dean. And should have been. Your posts, while often containing an enjoyable shade of snark, are very well thought out and compelling, usually. Maybe you're tired?

 

Frankly, this argument in and of itself seems a bit exhausting. If people can't even agree Solas' plans are gonna kill everyone, when he says they will... I can't think of a way to have a debate when we can't agree on such basic premises. I mean, I'm not telling people to stop debating. But this current point is kinda going in circles now.