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All of your posts seem to boil down to one thing -- harming/killing(etc.) the inhabitants of the modern world is bad.
This is a selfish view at the core.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
All of your posts seem to boil down to one thing -- harming/killing(etc.) the inhabitants of the modern world is bad.
This is a selfish view at the core.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
All of your posts seem to boil down to one thing -- harming/killing(etc.) the inhabitants of the modern world is bad.
This is a selfish view at the core.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
Are you really arguing that harming the current inhabitants of Thedas *isn't* bad? I doubt that you are. (I hope.)
Ancient elves (that are still alive) aren't less deserving of life than modern people, but they aren't deserving of it at the expense of modern people, either. There is a current, possible solution where both groups get to live. Ancient elves will age and die like everyone else if exposed to the current world for too long, but they'd still get to live, and do so without it being at the expense of others. Solas is the one deciding one group (and assuaging his guilt) is more important than another group, as well as one standard of living for that one group being the only acceptable standard of living.
Of course, the ideal solution is one in which both groups survive and thrive, ie the "elvhen" get to be their immortal selves again without it killing the rest of us, but we don't know if that's possible. And Solas either doesn't believe it's possible or believes that such a solution wouldn't be time-effective, since he's not attempting it.
All of your posts seem to boil down to one thing -- harming/killing(etc.) the inhabitants of the modern world is bad.
This is a selfish view at the core.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
You're treading a dangerous path by speculating which group of people is more deserving to live.
All of your posts seem to boil down to one thing -- harming/killing(etc.) the inhabitants of the modern world is bad.
This is a selfish view at the core.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
Are you really arguing that harming the current inhabitants of Thedas *isn't* bad? I doubt that you are. (I hope.)
Ancient elves (that are still alive) aren't less deserving of life than modern people, but they aren't deserving of it at the expense of modern people, either. There is a current, possible solution where both groups get to live. Ancient elves will age and die like everyone else if exposed to the current world for too long, but they'd still get to live, and do so without it being at the expense of others. Solas is the one deciding one group (and assuaging his guilt) is more important than another group, as well as one standard of living for that one group being the only acceptable standard of living.
Forcing one group to just accept mortality and live a few years isn't really a solution - merely the world waiting for the 'problem' to literally die away. It's not really better than continuous diminishing of modern elves or dwarves: it's just slowly waiting for them to excuse themselves from the living world (and oftentimes helping them with it); a notion I find hard to accept, even if preferable to death of countless people in favor of one group.
But that group doesn't appear to be specifically the remnants of ancient elves. And we don't really know if ancient elves are truly mortal now - Abelas claims that perhaps only uthenera awaits for him, if fate is kind, suggesting that he himself is still immortal. Then there's the fact that Solas claims that "the Veil took everything from the elves, even themselves'. It didn't seem to take 'themselves' from ancient elves, at least judging from Sentinels, so he must have a broader group in mind.
Then there's also the fact that he claims that Veil has blocked most people's conscious connection to the Fade - the whole world is effectively semi-Tranquilized. That's actually what he gives us as a major reason for making a decision to lift the Veil - it might have saved the world from the Evanuris, but now it does injustice to all the living creatures and he thinks that restoring that connection is preferable to leaving it be, even if it effectively brings destruction to the world that emerged after the Veil was formed.
So it's not as simple as "saving a bunch of ancient elves".
And this is a speculation that yet awaits to be confirmed, but it may in fact be that the only reason he says that he'll restore the elves and their world is because most creatures will basically 'default' to what they were before - after all, aside from the Dwarves, it's lightly hinted at that both humans and Qunari may have had descended from the elves, who themselves descend from spirits and are close enough to it that they call spirits their brethren.
Are you really arguing that harming the current inhabitants of Thedas *isn't* bad? I doubt that you are. (I hope.)
No, what I was intended to convey was that Dean seems to only considers the harm to the current inhabitants, while not considering that Solas' people have a legitimate right to exist as well.
Unfortunately, I didn't write my post correctly, and its wording was too round-about. Oh well, I was too tired at the time.
They're alive, for one thing. Most of Solas' are dead and gone.
That we don't know. Cole makes suggestion that someone is 'hiding and hurting, sleeping in a mirror' - and given that we know that Elvenhan apparently had a large, thriving population (anywhere we go in zones, Solas can say 'our people used to be here', he mentions massive cities larger than Val Royeaux and when he mentions Falon'Din fighting for more worshipers he says that 'the blood of those who wouldn't bow low filled lakes as wide as oceans' - as much as this is a poetic metaphor, it implies that the numbers of elves were absolutely massive) we can't really make an appropriate estimation of how many people apparently wait and hide and suffer before someone makes something to wake them, nor assume that they're all dead and gone.
And that's, of course, assuming that Solas only means ancient elves - while I already made arguments that it's not that simple above this post.
At the very least, Solas expects his plan to result in many deaths, and yet he is still prepared to go through with it. At the worst, we're talking about the genocide of anyone who isn't an ancient elf. And we might see the return of the Evanuris, who were quite the pieces of work themselves. That'll be a real problem for Solas' if he can't beat them.
Well, if you believe Solas, "he had plans" - I assume he has some now too, though how specific it's hard to say, given that Plan A probably got largely thrown away. In either case, it would be bizarre to assume he just would shrug it off; he must have at least some idea what to do - that is unless what I assume is correct and there's a deadline to put his plan into action, probably some kind of celestial event, that may mean that the plan to deal with Evanuris takes a 2nd seat to lifting of the Veil.
No, what I was intended to convey was that Dean seems to only considers the harm to the current inhabitants, while not considering that Solas' people have a legitimate right to exist as well.
Unfortunately, I didn't write my post correctly, and its wording was too round-about. Oh well, I was too tired at the time.
While the ancient elves have the right to exist, killing the other races is a lot worse. Think about it, what makes you think the ancient elves wouldn't do a repeat of what the other races, especially humans, did where in fact that they warred among themselves a long time ago? The ancient elves' time were lot like Tevinter.
While the ancient elves have the right to exist, killing the other races is a lot worse. Think about it, what makes you think the ancient elves wouldn't do a repeat of what the other races, especially humans, did where in fact that they warred among themselves a long time ago? The ancient elves' time were lot like Tevinter.
The problem with Tevinter - just like Elvenhan - is that the entitled elite rules the country, not that it's a country full of of a-holes. Most of the "Vints" are innocent civilians, like Krem.
Likely similar thing happened in Elvenhan. In fact it's not likely - it IS what happened, and it's humans who repeat the history of the elves, including stunts that threaten to unravel the world (Corypheus and other priests' trip to Golden City and then subsequent Blight release, only for Cory to return and try and make himself a god in modern Thedas). In other words the world wasn't really exchanged for one that was better or giving hope that mistakes of elves won't be repeated. The point, therefore, is moot.
Then there's the fact that Solas took mantle of Fen'Harel to correct the injustice that happened in Elvenhan - sadly the ruling elite was so overpowered, yet still power-hungry, that extreme measures had to be taken. Yet most of Elvenhan were likely innocent civilians or people struggling gain freedom; and they never really got it. After being freed for a time they've fallen victims to both the Veil parting them from what made them them, and the cruel currents of fate; enslaved by Tevinter and generally shunned by humans, to a point where most of them are forced to live in extreme poverty as 2nd class citizens.
All of your posts seem to boil down to one thing -- harming/killing(etc.) the inhabitants of the modern world is bad.
This is a selfish view at the core.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
I guess when it really comes down to it, "deserve" is not a meaningful word to really look at here. The people of Thedas at large didn't choose the world they live in. Whatever mistake Solas made that led to that world, the people that exist there now live with it, and have for some time. If his effort to "correct" his errors results in these people being wiped out, then I'd say that everyone alive in present-day Thedas is perfectly justified to fight tooth and nail to make sure that never happens, the elves of old be damned. It's no more selfish a view than that of Solas, who is clearly acting out of guilt.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
The fact that they (or the vast majority of them) don't exist any more? And as far as we know that non-existence does not yearn for existence?
Destroying the world doesn't usually imply survivors.
It did the first time he did what he called "destroying the world"
While the ancient elves have the right to exist, killing the other races is a lot worse. Think about it, what makes you think the ancient elves wouldn't do a repeat of what the other races, especially humans, did where in fact that they warred among themselves a long time ago? The ancient elves' time were lot like Tevinter.
What ancient elves? They're all dead. As per Origins and DA2, the Dalish thought elven immortality was lost because of proximity with humans. It's revealed by Solas that he destroyed his people's immortality by raising the Veil. This made them mortal.
The only ancient elves we know of that are still alive are the few under Mythal's spell at her temple in Inquisition.
So, again, what ancient elves?
What ancient elves? They're all dead.
So, again, what ancient elves?
What ancient elves? They're all dead. As per Origins and DA2, the Dalish thought elven immortality was lost because of proximity with humans. It's revealed by Solas that he destroyed his people's immortality by raising the Veil. This made them mortal.
The only ancient elves we know of that are still alive are the few under Mythal's spell at her temple in Inquisition.
So, again, what ancient elves?
Did you actually listen to what Solas tells Abelas?
"There are other places, friend, other duties. Your people yet linger."
"Elvhen such as you?"
"Yes, such as I"
And later - "there is a place for you, lethallin. If you seek it."
That we don't know. Cole makes suggestion that someone is 'hiding and hurting, sleeping in a mirror' - and given that we know that Elvenhan apparently had a large, thriving population (anywhere we go in zones, Solas can say 'our people used to be here', he mentions massive cities larger than Val Royeaux and when he mentions Falon'Din fighting for more worshipers he says that 'the blood of those who wouldn't bow low filled lakes as wide as oceans' - as much as this is a poetic metaphor, it implies that the numbers of elves were absolutely massive) we can't really make an appropriate estimation of how many people apparently wait and hide and suffer before someone makes something to wake them, nor assume that they're all dead and gone.
And that's, of course, assuming that Solas only means ancient elves - while I already made arguments that it's not that simple above this post.
Well, if you believe Solas, "he had plans" - I assume he has some now too, though how specific it's hard to say, given that Plan A probably got largely thrown away. In either case, it would be bizarre to assume he just would shrug it off; he must have at least some idea what to do - that is unless what I assume is correct and there's a deadline to put his plan into action, probably some kind of celestial event, that may mean that the plan to deal with Evanuris takes a 2nd seat to lifting of the Veil.
I'm just wondering...for those who hate or dislike Solas, do you hate him because of his action and character(ignorant, destroy world, liar, etc) which is more of a in-game, or because of, well for example, maybe you think his character is badly written, or something similar.
A bit of both. His actions and intentions are just utterly beyond the pale, of course, but his writing has me of two minds. He is definitely not badly written in terms of characterization, and they did a very goob job showing his better sides and deceiving the player into thinking of him as a friend. But what ticks me off is that he is given so much special treatment: plot armor, the fact that he always pretty much "wins by default" in arguments (a problem he shares with many other NPCs such as Varric and Vivienne, mind), and that an entire game was essentially sacrificed on the altar of making him look good, rather than given proper treatment for all the themes and plots that it supposedly was about. If Inquisition's main plot had been handled better, if the Inquisitor and the Inquisition weren't deliberately gutted in Trespasser to get them out of the way so the writers don't have to bother accounting for meaningless nonsense like player choices and accomplishments, I'd probably resent Solas less for essentially "stealing" the game and making it all about him.
(As an aside, if the Veil could be removed without causing armageddon, if this rather bland generic fantasy setting could be transformed into a true high-magic world with spirits everywhere and all sorts of mystical feats being commonplace, I'd actually be all for that because Solas and especially Cole sparked a fascination for the Fade and spirits. But I doubt they'll make that possible.)
There is also the thing that all ancient elves were mages. With no veil its quite possible, but then again it depends on your definition of "mage". Everyone could draw from the fade as it was everywhere, but some could do it a lot better and extensively than others.
All of your posts seem to boil down to one thing -- harming/killing(etc.) the inhabitants of the modern world is bad.
This is a selfish view at the core.
What makes the modern inhabitants more deserving of the world than Solas' people? This question has been touched upon, but never answered.
This is a very valid question, but some questions just need to be asked and not answered because there is no answer.
The fact that this question can be posed simply clarifies most things.
... and that an entire game was essentially sacrificed on the altar of making him look good, rather than given proper treatment for all the themes and plots that it supposedly was about. If Inquisition's main plot had been handled better, if the Inquisitor and the Inquisition weren't deliberately gutted in Trespasser to get them out of the way so the writers don't have to bother accounting for meaningless nonsense like player choices and accomplishments, I'd probably resent Solas less for essentially "stealing" the game and making it all about him.
Yes, I am so tired of hearing people say Solas is the true antagonist of DAI, and that the reveal at the very end (and Trespasser) make up for the tepid base game main plot. No...he is not the antagonist, he is set up as DA4's antagonist but in this game he isn't acting against the Inquisition. This game should focus on religion and faith, opposing Corypheus, and bringing order to Southern Thedas. It should not be an extremely long introduction to the next game in the series.
People need to view DAI as a stand alone game rather than a prequel to Solas' story in the next game. We shouldn't have to be okay with Cory's lackluster presence because he's not really the antagonist to the story. The trouble the game has is that its original plot was dissected once the Exalted Marches DLC was cancelled and its plot was pushed into DAI. So Bioware made an incomplete story in this game and thinks it's okay that the first half of the story is lukewarm since it won't be resolved until the next game, anyway.
@vbibbi: Well said. No story and no character should exist as merely an enabler for another story or character. If the former aren't allowed to properly shine on their own merits and the latter aren't able to, then both are a waste of my time. And I'm going to be especially p*ssed off if the themes and people (including my own character) I got emotionally invested in are among those rendered irrelevant that way.
Did you actually listen to what Solas tells Abelas?
"There are other places, friend, other duties. Your people yet linger."
"Elvhen such as you?"
"Yes, such as I"
And later - "there is a place for you, lethallin. If you seek it."
Of course I did. I've already explained this doesn't describe some secret unknown cache of ancient elves that nobody knows of where they abode.
The elves do linger, as a mere shadow of what they're supposed to be before the Veil was raised. Solas has plans to restore his people, Abelas can be a part of those plans and that would be his place.
You have to remember, Abelas sees Solas as the Dalish. Not as a fellow ancient elf. Before Trespasser, I took this at its most obvious meaning... that the Dalish were hungry for knowledge of their past and there would be a place for Abelas among some of the Dalish. And this would be true.
And of course you keep ignoring the fact that Solas also says he destroyed his people.
You have to remember, Abelas sees Solas as the Dalish. Not as a fellow ancient elf. Before Trespasser, I took this at its most obvious meaning... that the Dalish were hungry for knowledge of their past and there would be a place for Abelas among some of the Dalish. And this would be true.
" 'Our' people? The ones we see in the forest, shadows wearing vallaslin? You are not my people.”
That's what he says about the Dalish. Solas on the other hand is, according to Abelas, one of his own.
"You stumble down our paths at the side of one of our own."
Solas and Abelas both make rather clear distinctions between themselves and the Dalish. Therefore "Your people yet linger" cannot mean anything but other elvhen/ancient elves
" 'Our' people? The ones we see in the forest, shadows wearing vallaslin? You are not my people.”
That's what he says about the Dalish. Solas on the other hand is, according to Abelas, one of his own.
"You stumble down our paths at the side of one of our own."
Solas and Abelas both make rather clear distinctions between themselves and the Dalish. Therefore "Your people yet linger" cannot mean anything but other elvhen.
Agreed. The "your people yet linger" can't mean the idea of modern elves being remnants of ancient ones. If that was the case, then its a pointless line to use on Abelas since he's already made it clear he's disdainful of the "shadows wearing vallaslin".
Not to mention Solas is the one saying the line and he's made it perfectly clear he doesn't consider modern elves and ancient elves to be one in the same, and Abelas is very obviously an ancient elf.
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