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[Almostfaceman]

Absolutely nothing on that page suggests they are the same group.

 

From the link. 

 

The Sentinel elves are a mysterious order located deep in the Arbor Wilds, at the Temple of Mythal.

 

There ya have it. 

[Almostfaceman]

That wiki never says the Sentinel Elves at Tirashan are the same Sentinel Elves from the TYemple of Mythal. Considering you can kill the Sentinel Elves in the Temple of Mythal and yet Leliana still gets those reports, it suggests they are a different group. 

 

You can kill ALL the Sentinel elves at the Temple of Mythal? Since when? 

 

Here's the description from the wiki: The Sentinel elves are a mysterious order located deep in the Arbor Wilds, at the Temple of Mythal.

 

So, according to this information, the Sentinel elves simply go other places from the Temple and are seen in those other places. 

[Dancing_Dolphin]

Wow, you are really stretchin' it, almostfaceman. But whatever, there is no way either side can prove their argument to the other's satisfaction, so I guess we will have to wait until the next game to see who is right.

[Almostfaceman]

Wow, you are really stretchin' it, almostfaceman. But whatever, there is no way either side can prove their argument to the other's satisfaction, so I guess we will have to wait until the next game to see who is right.

 

"Stretchin' it"? How so? I'm just taking the information we have, not assuming more about the information and applying logic to that information.

 

We have this group of Sentinel elves, from this Temple. They have feet. They can walk. They do so, since the Well of Sorrows is gone. This isn't Sherlock Holmes. 

[TK514]

Ahh, confirmation bias.

[Almostfaceman]

There was nothing there stating that there was a nearly intact Temple Of Mythal in the game, up until we actually went there, so it's not really a good argument. We saw in Trespasser how many undiscovered ancient elvhen ruins there are, as well as a myriad of Crossroad-like pocket dimensions, and there's no telling how many of them exist yet and which are inhabited. Solas wouldn't be saying to Abelas that "his people yet linger" if he didn't mean it. He may be a trickster who deceived everyone by simple omission, but he hardly ever directly lies.

Lack of information that something exists isn't proof that that thing exists. Assuming that there are more temples inhabited by ancient elves is a very large assumption. On the other hand, thousands of years of many races scouring the earth and only finding one Temple with ancient elves in it is proof of that temple and of the rarity of ancient elves.
 

Also - if I recall, Leliana's reports mention strange elves that look like Sentinels, NOT necessarily Sentinels themselves. Solas isn't one, yet he wears similar armor, meaning that they were probably "in fashion" across Elvenhan before the empire went bust, lol.

I think I linked above that it was the Sentinel elves. Any assumptions about fashions are just that, assumptions. I'm just trying to work from the information available.
 

Plus, the game we can play in DA Keep mentions Serault inhabitants being sometimes raided by strange elves wearing red vallaslin. None of the elves in Temple of Mythal wore red tattoos - in fact, if I recall correctly, they were all emerald green.
 
Given that we know that Fen'Harel detests vallaslins for what they represent, and went about to free people from them, and effecivly from slavery to others, it's unlikely he'd force anyone to wear it. The guy stands by his principles... yet.
 
And red? I'd like to point out that red is a color of the Blight and Solas detests and fears Blight seemingly more than anything else. Whoever resides at Tirashan, I'd be more inclined to believe that they're tied to the trapped Evanuris more than they're to Fen'Harel.

More likely they're just Dalish (who wear vallaslin) who've been exposed to the red lyrium outbreak due to Corypheus. That's the simplest and most logical answer.
 
 
 

That doesn't mean anything at all. The Inquisition at the height of its power has many agents and allies, and messages can be delivered quickly across the map via message birds - plus, we have no idea of the time-frame each mission gets to be accomplished, realistically in-game, other than it's definitely more than a few days - and realistically, few weeks or months even.

That actually just kind of makes the point I was making for me. I was replying that the Sentinel elves had plenty of "time" to be seen in other places on war table missions/reports. Especially since time frame on the war table isn't a factor and the events of the Inquisition take place over the course of a year or more.
 

Solas isn't concerned about modern elves any more than he is concerned about others, since many more groups other than elves suffer greatly and the whole world suffers because of decisions he's made in the past - in fact, after Halamshiral, he can be caught off-guard and admit that he feels more connection with the mages than modern elves. Because this is exactly what cost the world when he created the Veil to save everyone from Evanuris and their mad plans: he cut most people's conscious connection with the Fade, and only mages in modern world retain it, at least in some measure.
 
He may value the remnants of ancient elves for their memories of how things were, the lost knowledge and power and likely would seek to rescue it for the sake of these memories or knowledge, but ultimately he wants to return "the world of the elves" (the world with the Fade flowing freely through the world and the people connected to it, as they were before), NOT necessarily ancient Arlathan or Elvenhan. He tells Dorian that Elvenhan was no more innocent than Tevinter in its time - a harsh assessment, given his sentiments about Tevinter. He also tells Dorian not to romanticize ancient elves; that it is pointless.
 
Plus, don't forget that if Inquisitor doesn't complete the rites in Temple Of Mythal and doesnt' ally with Sentinels, he's very upset, but he kills them anyway - in fact he seems no more upset than he was with conscripting mages, keeping Wardens or sacrificing Bull's Chargers.

My point was that WE the "reader" of the story of Dragon Age are not invested in any groups of ancient elves. We're invested in modern elves. You can play one in Origins and we have a slave (and see many poor and down-trodden) as a companion in Dragon Age 2. It doesn't make sense, story-wise, to try and suddenly make us care about some undefined mysterious "ancient elf" group.

[Almostfaceman]

Ahh, confirmation bias.

As opposed to what?

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Not really. I've seen the elves in the temple, the Inquisitor, Solas, Sera. They all look the same. 

 

Actually ancient elves do look physically different than the other elven NPCs and PC. Its more obvious if you play a male elf since most of the ancients we see seem to be male. Compare male elf inquisitor and Solas' or Abelas' build, for example. They are more muscular and healthier (as in non-anorexic looking) than the Inquisitor or the Dalish in the Plains. Also, in the Palace in Trespasser, you can notice that there are some unusually tall elven "servants" that tend to turn their heads and track the Inquisitor's movement as you pass, though they stop when you get too close to them. They're very likely supposed to be Solas' spies, who are likely ancient elves.  And as I said they are unusually tall for an elf of their given gender. Its not an obvious difference. But its there. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not really. I've seen the elves in the temple, the Inquisitor, Solas, Sera. They all look the same. 

From the link you love so much:

Physically, they appear to be more muscular and larger than modern elves, with largely pallid coloring and little to no visible hair.

[Almostfaceman]

From the link you love so much:

Physically, they appear to be more muscular and larger than modern elves, with largely pallid coloring and little to no visible hair.

 

Yup, I saw that. To address this and the other person who posted about the ancient elven appearance... the physical appearance is not strikingly different in the game. My Inquisitor is just as tall as Solas or Abelas, and his build is exactly the same. There's one set of armors that make any elven male's arms look emaciated and bowed inwards, but this problem is corrected with a wide variety of the elven garb (the Skyhold alternate jump suit options) and armors (Griffin armor, the starting armor and the ancient Quizzy armor come to mind as a few examples). Maybe the wiki is getting that information from the books? Anyone who could illuminate on that, it would be appreciated. 

 

And Hanako "that I love so much" seems... a smidge childish. I have no personal grudge or annoyance with anyone who disagrees with me. I'm just gathering information that's available and making informed theories about what's going on. This is why I take the "more muscular and larger" with a grain of salt. In my opinion, it's not really supported by what I saw in the game. 

 

So please, even if we disagree, let's keep this polite and adult. Assuming the motivations of each other is silly and just that... assumptions. 

 

Cheers!

[Aren]

Solas was the best among the creators,see at how people dislike his deception i wonder what will be the reaction towards the others creators...

[Aren]

He does, actually - if you get even +1 approval with Inquisitor, he fully admits that people of Thedas are people and they deserve better. Plus, all this approval in the main game for helping everyone, no matter of the race, isn't just for show.

 

Also - you misunderstand his motivations. It's not about the ancient elves, but about what he's done to the world in order to stop the Evanuris. It saved the world, but it has also effectively "lobotomized" the population, by cutting their conscious connection to the Fade. He wouldn't be saying that the people of Thedas reminded him of Tranquil if he didn't see just how changed they are compared to what they were before. They aren't ancient elves or anything like it, because they literally can't be and it's his fault.

 

So he tries to reverse that - now I'm not saying that his way of doing so is something I'm cheering for. I do hope there is another way to do things that don't require entire civilization collapsing again and if not, then Solas would likely have to be removed. But it's something way more complicated than "he's just some ancient elf supremacist".

I do not know if this argument can be applied to the other races,we did not know if the other races were different without the veil,so far it seems that the creation of the veil affected significatively only the elves.

[Aren]

Lol, the whole of Solas life appears to be "you got what you wanted and it's horrifying". He tried to help and save the world, but due to whatever personal faults and sheer unfavorable 

I don't think that is completely accurate,Solas did know what it would have cost to form the veil,he did it in order to stop "his claim only" a greater disaster.

[AedanStarfang]

Because he's a sneaky schutta, certainly not because he's a dirty elf or because he's bald (bald ppl rule btw) 

[vbibbi]

I do not know if this argument can be applied to the other races,we did not know if the other races were different without the veil,so far it seems that the creation of the veil affected significatively only the elves.

I think it's strongly hinted that the dwarves had a connection to the Titans prior to the Veil. To what degree or what exactly that means is unclear, but it seems like they may have had their own version of magic, like what Valta recovered.

 

But yeah, I don't think humans are mentioned at all pre-Veil, and if the Qunari turn out to be a magical race, they might not have existed prior to Tevinter's rise.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

According to the sources we have, humans came from across the northern sea. They were on the continent around present day Minrathous and the surrounding coastline for a while (long enough to establish several settlements and I believe a few generations of leadership) before they ran into the elves in Arlathan forest. Then they fought and enslaved those elves. No idea how long it is btwn the veil going up and first contact/elven enslavement, but I would have to think, at the least, the humans across the sea existed pre-veil.

 

I mean, its possible the Evanuris/elves had territory across the whole world, not just Thedas, and humans are some byproduct of elves instead of their own species and separate evolution. But I don't think there's any confirming evidence for that, yet. 

[In Exile]

According to the sources we have, humans came from across the northern sea. They were on the continent around present day Minrathous and the surrounding coastline for a while (long enough to establish several settlements and I believe a few generations of leadership) before they ran into the elves in Arlathan forest. Then they fought and enslaved those elves. No idea how long it is btwn the veil going up and first contact/elven enslavement, but I would have to think, at the least, the humans across the sea existed pre-veil.

I mean, its possible the Evanuris/elves had territory across the whole world, not just Thedas, and humans are some byproduct of them instead of their own species and separate evolution. But I don't think there's any confirming evidence for that, yet.

It's also possible the creation of the Veil led to some bizarre TW3 conjunction of the spheres type of event - the Thedas wasn't a place were there were humans, until it came up.

[Kezza]

What about the dwarves? they did exist pre-veil...but you might be lucky to find any records of theirs on the topic....shapers removing memories....

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

It's also possible the creation of the Veil led to some bizarre TW3 conjunction of the spheres type of event - the Thedas wasn't a place were there were humans, until it came up.

This is also possible, yes. I haven't seen anything to imply its what occurred, but nothing rules it out at the moment either. Except the lack of a mention of other worlds, I suppose

[vbibbi]

It's also possible the creation of the Veil led to some bizarre TW3 conjunction of the spheres type of event - the Thedas wasn't a place were there were humans, until it came up.

[In Exile]

This is also possible, yes. I haven't seen anything to imply its what occurred, but nothing rules it out at the moment either. Except the lack of a mention of other worlds, I suppose

 

So far, we've got a lot of weirdness with pocket dimensions. What's to say that there weren't other dimensions Solas managed to mush together to create modern Thedas and separate out the Veil? 

 

The trend we've seen for DA history is that the old stories aren't totally wrong, just missing the point. So it might not be wrong that humans showed up around the time elves lost their immortality, i.e., when the Veil rose up. 

 

The alternative is that the Veil screwed with spirits, and humans are basically a huge group of spirits that got Cole'd from the creation of the Veil for some reason or another. 

[Ashagar]

From what I understand there are references to mortal tribes and how they were hunted for sport so it likely was wasn't all titans, dragons and elves running around before the veil.

[Zafireria]

The alternative is that the Veil screwed with spirits, and humans are basically a huge group of spirits that got Cole'd from the creation of the Veil for some reason or another. 

 

So Solas is the Marker? o.O

[vbibbi]

From what I understand there are references to mortal tribes and how they were hunted for sport so it likely was wasn't all titans, dragons and elves running around before the veil.

I thought it was the dwarves being hunted by the ancient elves in the pillars of the earth.

[Korva]

Corypheus should have carried DA:I on his own.

 

Corypheus and the Inquisitor -- both alone and together. Unfortunately, neither of them is given any chance to be an actual character, nevermind the supposed antagonist and protagonist. With such complete disregard for the two most crucial characters of a story, you don't have a story, especially when that disregard also extends to the themes the story pretends to be about.

 

The problems with Inquisition's story and characterization were annoying enough before Trespasser pretty much revealed them to be deliberate.

 

I am personally against Tresspasser... as I feel it undermines the story and ONLY feels so good for people because it finally adds gravitas to the tale.  Tresspasser is the first time you feel like the things you are doing have any bearing on the greater whole.

 

I fully agree about it undermining Inquisition, which is why I disagree about it finally feeling as if anything I do has any bearings on anything. On the contrary. It throws everything about my character under the bus, destroys everything she thought she had accomplished, and is a complete kick in the teeth. It embodies my biggest longstanding problems with Bioware's writing almost to a T.

 

Yeah you raise a good point. DAI shows why it's not good to rely too strongly on other source material within the game, and Bio should be careful about making sure each game is self contained and self reliant.

 

I hadn't even considered that aspect when I wrote my post, but yes, absolutely. It'd extremely lazy and arrogant to assume that players either have bought or should buy all the books and comics on top of an already expensive game plus its expensive DLCs if we want to get the "real, full story". Various arcs and characters in the game are diminished or fall flat entirely because of this, and while it's one thing when it's done with a throwaway side character, doing it with a main story arc like WE&WH should be considered a cardinal sin of writing.