503 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Speaking about that, I will say my initial impression for Sera was dislike, but the more I played the game the more I liked her.  So we're cool now.  But I never got to cool with Solas.  Trespasser only soured me more on him. Go figure!

I understand. Trespasser didn't make me love him, either. It didn't change my opinion at all. Forcing myself to romance him did, sadly. The avid fans always suggest that players who dislike a character need to spend more time with them, but there are times when that's the worst thing you can do. It's like a house guest who has overstayed his or her welcome.

[Illegitimus]

I agree. Solas is one of the best characters in the DAI franchise.

 

Solas is not an evil character.

 

Nowhere does Solas say that Solas is going to kill everyone. "Destroying the world" is figurative, and might or might not mean what you think it means. 

 

One thing that Solas mentions is that people are drawn to black-and-white distinctions. That is exactly what people have fallen into, in labeling Solas "good" or "bad" based on stuff that isn't fully clarified.

 

Well I don't hate him for being evil.  I hate him for not fully clarifying.  What's going on is too important to obscure ones meaning with vagueness and metaphor.  Also he's a frighteningly dangerous screw-up.  

[Aeratus]

Well I don't hate him for being evil.  I hate him for not fully clarifying.  What's going on is too important to obscure ones meaning with vagueness and metaphor.  Also he's a frighteningly dangerous screw-up.  

 

haha, there is an actual dialogue option for something like that. His response is that he can't say because it would be used against him. 

 

But I think he's vague because the writers haven't decided how to handle the matter. The writers wanted to portray the gravity of removing the veil by having solas say that it would "destroy" the world (whatever that means), but it looks like the writers haven't decided how removing the veil would actually affect the current world. For one thing, we know that thedas people can physically survive in the fade. The fade has demons, but no more demons than there are bandits near redcliffe.  

[Medhia_Nox]

@Aeratus:  He says in his last speech about what he's going to do that he's going to build his new world while this world burns. 

 

That's not metaphor.

 

"I will save the elven people, even if it means this world must die."

 

------------

 

"I would have entered the fade using the mark you now bear.  Then I would have torn down the viel.  As this world burned in the raw chaos.  I would have restored the world of my time." - this is what he WOULD have done had the orb worked.

 

------------

 

Inquisitor "You'd murder countless people?"

Solas "Wouldn't you to save your own?"

 

-----------

 

He also says that he would fight the Qun because if everyone has to die... they should at least die "in comfort". 

 

Solas is vile and represents the apex of what the worst people with power are willing to do without regard to whether they should.

[Karmel]

Oh, yes! Let's kill Solas!

 

He is a liar!

The Inquisition never lied to the faithful of the Herald of Andraste!!!

He dares to choose side!

We chose not mages, sacrificing the Templars (or vice versa)!!!

He takes independent decisions, he wants to destroy the Veil!

We conducted a vote in Orlais before we gave the throne to Celene, Gaspard or Briala...

We will not be another Teagan or chancellor Roderick, issuing judgments based on fear and ignorance, basking in our glory... Oops!!! It’s so easy to condemn others… Sad, how easy.

 

Yes, that's sarcasm. I'm sorry if anyone was offended, but generally very few of you have probably ever looked at it from this side.

[Ashagar]

Assumptions are the mother of all errors and great engineering disasters. Its never wise to assume what people have and haven't done.

[Aeratus]

@Medhia_Nox

 

Thanks for quoting the dialogue.

 

Still, the phrases "this world must die" and "this world burned in the raw chaos" are metaphorical as to what they mean, since a "world" (including the dirt) does not literally die. I was going to write something, but I saw that a post on reddit (https://www.reddit.c...omments/3kux5h/) had offered interpretation of what these terms mean.

 

Solas is vile and represents the apex of what the worst people with power are willing to do without regard to whether they should.

 

"People" implies a normative frame of reference, but Solas does not represent the "people." So I don't think Solas can be fairly characterized as "people with power," if modern thedosians are the frame of reference. Instead, Solas represents a different type of being, one that has both a manifested physical form and a spirit-like fade form.

 

Solas does not consider modern thedas to be of his "people." But if he did consider himself to belong to the people of modern thedas, he would be fully compassionate to them. As revealed in Here Lies the Abyss, his greatest fear is dying alone, and that means dying without his "people." Solas's story is really about him trying to find what "people" does he really belong to. Is it the spirit-elves of the past (to which Solas himself belonged), or is it what's "real" in thedas today (to which he currently belongs, since he is now "real")? This is the real conflict in the Lavellan romance arc, even though Lavellan never understood this conflict at all.  

[Medhia_Nox]

@Aeratus:  I honestly couldn't care less about the romance arc or his greatest fear.  All vile people are broken in some fashion.  Just because he's scared to die alone doesn't mean he can kill every man, woman and child on Thedas.  (You can't metaphor him out of saying he's willing to murder everyone to bring back his people.)

 

I'd also try to stop anyone who went along with his plan because they loved him. 

 

Harley Quinn "loves" the Joker too... they're both less deranged than I find Solas.

 

But, I'm not going to really argue this.  Solas will be stopped regardless.  Bioware isn't going to do to Thedas what they did to Mass Effect. 

[Aeratus]

But, I'm not going to really argue this.  Solas will be stopped regardless.  Bioware isn't going to do to Thedas what they did to Mass Effect. 

 

I think Solas will succeed in temporarily dismantling the veil halfway through DA4. This itself won't kill the people, but the world will be thrown in chaos.

 

Then, the endings of DA4 are going to be:

 

1. Control the fade (restore the veil)

2. Destroy the fade 

3. Synthesize the fade and the Thedas 

4. Refuse, and let evil stuff in the black city overrun Thedas

[berelinde]

Oh, yes! Let's kill Solas!

 

He is a liar!

The Inquisition never lied to the faithful of the Herald of Andraste!!!

He dares to choose side!

We chose not mages, sacrificing the Templars (or vice versa)!!!

He takes independent decisions, he wants to destroy the Veil!

We conducted a vote in Orlais before we gave the throne to Celene, Gaspard or Briala...

We will not be another Teagan or chancellor Roderick, issuing judgments based on fear and ignorance, basking in our glory... Oops!!! It’s so easy to condemn others… Sad, how easy.

 

Yes, that's sarcasm. I'm sorry if anyone was offended, but generally very few of you have probably ever looked at it from this side.

Very few people want to kill Solas arbitrarily. Most people just want to prevent him from powering down the electric fences around the velociraptor pen.

[Karmel]

I understand, but many people behave at this as if in fact they were Herold of Andraste. Meanwhile, for Samson (for example) we were ordinary murderers, for Chantry - liars, and for Teagan - a threat to peace.

 

I also do not intend to let go of Solas, if it turns out that what he does, he does with bad motives, not caring about who will suffer.

 

Just does not seem to me that he was that kind of man. Words have this restriction that they can be open to interpretation. It is worth to remember the broader context when you want to judge someone based on them.

 

In Thedas there is no peace and love, not at all. This place tends to disaster ... Extermination of elves and dwarves lasts for years. People do not care about the fact that they create an army of demons who wants to get out of the Fade... There is Qunari and Tevinter, with its imperial inclinations.

 

So if the person responsible for this mess is nearby and does not behave like a mad lunatic, we should consider advising him how to clean it up, at least cost. Because there must be sacrifices, when things had gone so far. And to focus on finding a way to survive for all and finding a way to peaceful coexistence.

 

Remember, too, that Solas may have a willing collaborator in the person of Mythal. And she always have her own plans, in this case revenge on Evanuris, at any price ... At least one should take this into account.

 

Again, sorry for my poor English, I use the internet translator. 

[Lulupab]

@Aeratus:  He says in his last speech about what he's going to do that he's going to build his new world while this world burns. 

 

That's not metaphor.

 

"I will save the elven people, even if it means this world must die."

 

------------

 

"I would have entered the fade using the mark you now bear.  Then I would have torn down the viel.  As this world burned in the raw chaos.  I would have restored the world of my time." - this is what he WOULD have done had the orb worked.

 

------------

 

Inquisitor "You'd murder countless people?"

Solas "Wouldn't you to save your own?"

 

-----------

 

He also says that he would fight the Qun because if everyone has to die... they should at least die "in comfort". 

 

Solas is vile and represents the apex of what the worst people with power are willing to do without regard to whether they should.

 

I'm not going to argue alot, but know this;

 

Millions were raped, and killed with children among them when Andraste led a rebellion against Tevinter. Villages were burnt and people's lives ruined. It was an army of BARBARIANS after all. Did you think she rebelled with lilies and puppies? Andraste saved her own people and destroyed the life of her enemies and everyone know she at least had some sort of higher power on her side.

 

To be honest with you I see ZERO difference between Andraste and Solas. Humans have treated elves as bad as Andraste and her people were treated at the hands of Tevinter. if Solas succeeds the saved people will revere him like they do Andraste as a hero, not a villain. Such is the way of the world, you just want the side you are on to survive.

 

At least admit it lol.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lulupab:  I don't believe violent revolutions are anything but a power grab regardless of what noble intentions they're couched in.  Andraste would have been no different.  

 

Also - the modern elves are not "Solas' people." - they're going too.  So there's no race you're going to be playing in future DA titles that aren't going to be wiped out (but SO regrettably) by Solas' demented plan.

[Lulupab]

Everything is a powergrab in Thedas. Are you forgetting the atrocities Orlais committed in Ferelden for 80 years? Why does Orlais has a right to do it but Solas doesn't?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm against death and destruction. I don't see why Orlais is more entitled to do it than Soals. I'm sure Solas, like Orlais, will not kill them all and will let those who submit live. He isn't mad, he is ten times smarter than tarts with crowns who are "emperors" of Orlais. Every new nations needs 2nd class citizens.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

@Aeratus:  He says in his last speech about what he's going to do that he's going to build his new world while this world burns. 

 

That's not metaphor.

 

"I will save the elven people, even if it means this world must die."

 

------------

 

"I would have entered the fade using the mark you now bear.  Then I would have torn down the viel.  As this world burned in the raw chaos.  I would have restored the world of my time." - this is what he WOULD have done had the orb worked.

 

------------

 

Inquisitor "You'd murder countless people?"

Solas "Wouldn't you to save your own?"

 

-----------

 

He also says that he would fight the Qun because if everyone has to die... they should at least die "in comfort". 

 

Solas is vile and represents the apex of what the worst people with power are willing to do without regard to whether they should.

 

Agree with all of that except for Solas being vile. (I have other words for him, but that's not one of them.)

 

Anyone telling themselves he meant "destroy the world" as a metaphor needs to replay/rewatch the conversation, imo. All the dialogue options. (Especially the ""They should at least die in comfort." line.) If, after doing so, you continue to cling to the idea all the destruction talk is a metaphor, I think you are in for a rude awakening. 

 

And ask yourself, if it was metaphor, if he really doesn't mean his plans are gonna kill everyone, why is he so sad?

 

I want to save Solas. I believe he can be saved from himself. But clinging to "he only meant destroy/die/all people you've ever known" as some kind of metaphor in spite of reality will do nothing, but hinder judgement when the time comes. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lulupab:  Where did I say Orlais has a right to do anything?

And last time I checked - Orlais didn't hunt elves (the Evanuris hunted humans for sport), slaughter dwarves (they were servants of the Titans at the time), killed titans (and mined their blood for power) and enslave their own people branding them like cattle with vallaslin.  So, this comparison is - to me - outlandishly inaccurate.  As I see it - what happened to Solas' people - was karma. 

 

As for whether or not he's "mad" - I honestly can't comprehend how someone rationalizes him... but, that's what makes the world so diverse I suppose. 

[Lulupab]

I don't agree with metaphor talk either. But I don't agree with the extreme view.

 

For example when I say Orlais must die, I don't mean every single person living in it must die. It means the governing branch as well as all ideologies need to die. That's how you destroy Orlais, not full genocide. I don't know why some people think Thedas will be eradicated of human kind.

 

In a sense, Andraste destroyed 80% of the world too, and she rebuilt them into her own government and ideologies.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

 

I'm not going to argue alot, but know this;

 

Millions were raped, and killed with children among them when Andraste led a rebellion against Tevinter. Villages were burnt and people's lives ruined. It was an army of BARBARIANS after all. Did you think she rebelled with lilies and puppies? Andraste saved her own people and destroyed the life of her enemies and everyone know she at least had some sort of higher power on her side.

 

To be honest with you I see ZERO difference between Andraste and Solas. Humans have treated elves as bad as Andraste and her people were treated at the hands of Tevinter. if Solas succeeds the saved people will revere him like they do Andraste as a hero, not a villain. Such is the way of the world, you just want the side you are on to survive.

 

At least admit it lol.

1, Being against Solas' plans implies neither support nor antagonism towards Andraste. I don't see the connection btwn what you quoted and where you went with this post.

 

2) Would love to see your source about the "millions were raped". (Or even the "killed with children among them", though that one is slightly more plausible as collateral damage can/will happen no matter how well intentioned the fighting.) Somehow, I don't think Andraste would of been cool with that. And we have no indication Maferath would of been, either. Just cus they're called barbarians doesn't mean they act like that. Did most barbarians in our world? Yes. But Thedas isn't our world. And what we've seen of the Avvar suggests they're fierce in war, but doesn't suggest anything about how they treat conquered people, especially when they're led by someone generally benevolent. I could see Hakkonites raping women and murdering children, but Andraste/Maferath/Shartan weren't Hakkonites.

[Medhia_Nox]

I don't agree with metaphor talk either. But I don't agree with the extreme view.

 

For example when I say Orlais must die, I don't mean every single person living in it must die. It means the governing branch as well as all ideologies need to die. That's how you destroy Orlais, not full genocide. I don't know why some people think Thedas will be eradicated of human kind.

 

In a sense, Andraste destroyed 80% of the world too, and she rebuilt them into her own government and ideologies.

 

Andraste did no such thing... she did not open the Fade, did not allow spirits/demons to flood through, did not take advantage of this to wipe away ALL the nations of Thedas, and then build a new speciest nation of tyrannical blood lusting elves in its place.  

 

The single nation Andraste warred against is still there for crying out loud and they worship her!

[Boost32]

Hate is too strong, I dislike Solas.
He is a madman, suffering from Megalomania/Messiah Complexo (he is the only one who have the power to save his people), if he succeded he will undo everything I did to protect and restore Thedas, he will bring death, destruction and chaos.
Nothing good will come from it if you are not an Ancient Elf, so he need to be stopped and he need to die to pay for his crimes.

[Lulupab]

@Lulupab:  Where did I say Orlais has a right to do anything?

And last time I checked - Orlais didn't hunt elves (the Evanuris hunted humans for sport), slaughter dwarves (they were servants of the Titans at the time), killed titans (and mined their blood for power) and enslave their own people branding them like cattle with vallaslin.  So, this comparison is - to me - outlandishly inaccurate.  As I see it - what happened to Solas' people - was karma. 

 

As for whether or not he's "mad" - I honestly can't comprehend how someone rationalizes him... but, that's what makes the world so diverse I suppose. 

 

So the ends justify the means? Murdering a 2 year child is murder, so is murdering an old man. Just because Tevinter's crimes were bigger, that doesn't mean Orlais gets any lenience, and I'm just using Orlais as an example. Same applies to elven nation that inhabited most of Thedas. They had more power and power is a tool, so they were both capable of bigger good and bigger atrocities.

 

You are confusing morality and intelligence. Solas doesn't lack anything in the latter, and former is most of the time subjective and on the gray area. I don't particularly want the current system of Thedas to end, but I'm not very opposed to a change. Its the only option Bioware has provided for making a better lives for Elves. Maybe Solas simply destroys a single human nation and makes it Elven, not only its very early to judge anything for certain, you provide us with the blacks in your opinions but not the whites. Who do you think are the good guys in Thedas apart from player controlled characters and their affiliations since they don't count for obvious reasons? I mean you are so sure Solas is "vile", tell me who isn't.

[dragonflight288]

A lie of omission, which is what you are describing, is still a lie and thus has no truth in it. 

 

"The best lies always contain a grain of truth." 

 

Or rather, let me use an example from the tv show "Sherlock," with Benedict Cumberbatch. 

 

In season 2, Moriarty is convincing most people that Sherlock is a fraud, and he dupes a reporter into thinking that (a reporter that Sherlock utterly offended so she had motivation.) 

 

The lie, Sherlock Holmes is a fraud. The premise and the clause is an outright lie. But it was one Watson said people would believe because everything else in the story she reported was true. 

 

For Solas, the advice he gives the Inquisitor and the other companions make sense and take into account human/elven nature. Which is why I find his dialogue with Cassandra so enjoyable, because he expresses surprise so often that Cassandra avoids the corrupting influences of power that he expects.

 

The truth, he is fighting alongside the inquisition, offering advice and his expertise on the Fade. He urges the Inquisitor in Haven to find the artifact that created the breach and offers advice to other members of the Inquisition. He even offers to teach Sera about ancient elves and maybe how to unlock power that comes with being an elf, which she rejects out of hand. 

 

The lie in his case is interesting, especially since he never outright tells us a falsehood, but gives us lies of omission. He urges us to find the orb but leaves out that doing so and finding it intact would enable him to destroy the world as he saw all its denizens as little more than tranquil in terms of being actual people. Nor does he say he'll fight bring order back into the world, rather he tells the inquisitor that he'll stay, at least until the mess is dealt with and says that he's an apostate surrounded by Chantry forces, which he is. 

 

His lies are lies of omissions, since I don't recall him ever throughout the game saying an outright falsehood. But he is still deceiving the inquisition about his motives.

 

He's a very complex character. 

[Lulupab]

 

 

1, Being against Solas' plans implies neither support nor antagonism towards Andraste. I don't see the connection btwn what you quoted and where you went with this post.

 

2) Would love to see your source about the "millions were raped". (Or even the "killed with children among them", though that one is slightly more plausible as collateral damage can/will happen no matter how well intentioned the fighting.) Somehow, I don't think Andraste would of been cool with that. And we have no indication Maferath would of been, either. Just cus they're called barbarians doesn't mean they act like that. Did most barbarians in our world? Yes. But Thedas isn't our world. And what we've seen of the Avvar suggests they're fierce in war, but doesn't suggest anything about how they treat conquered people, especially when they're led by someone generally benevolent. I could see Hakkonites raping women and murdering children, but Andraste/Maferath/Shartan weren't Hakkonites.

 

 

1. Fighting for your own people? What other connection are you looking for? Elves join his cause daily.

 

2. Its a very valid assumption because it was conquest. Plain and simple and to very definition of the word. We have codex entries about how whole Tevinter cities starved to death. Were all of them soldiers? Of course not. Women and children were of course among them. Even if you omit rape from the table, the pillaging and killing is still there. Tevinter ruled Thedas fora very long time and its people made their lives on the continent. Her rebellion utterly destroyed that.

[Lulupab]

Andraste did no such thing... she did not open the Fade, did not allow spirits/demons to flood through, did not take advantage of this to wipe away ALL the nations of Thedas, and then build a new speciest nation of tyrannical blood lusting elves in its place.  

 

The single nation Andraste warred against is still there for crying out loud and they worship her!

 

Again, bigger tools in your disposal means you are capable of bigger deeds, ill or good. An evil mage is a bigger threat than an evil common man, just like a good mage is a bigger help than a common man. Because magic is a big tool and Elves and Solas had this tool, and they had the biggest version of it. Everyone are only capable of doing things with what they are given. Andraste couldn't open the veil even if she wanted to. That is what I mean.

 

EXACTLY! If Solas conquers all Thedas, I'm sure some of his older enemies will worship him.

 

However Tevinter actually does not worship Andrate and do not see her as bride of the maker, only a simple woman who was mage. This is the main source of conflict between south and north Chantry.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

1. Fighting for your own people? What other connection are you looking for? Elves join his cause daily.

 

2. Its a very valid assumption because it was conquest. Plain and simple and to very definition of the word. We have codex entries about how whole Tevinter cities starved to death. Were all of them soldiers? Of course not. Women and children were of course among them. Even of you omit rape from the table, the pillaging and killing is still there. Tevinter ruled Thedas fora very long time and its people made their lives on the continent. Her rebellion utterly destroyed that.

 

 

1) What? What does that sentence you just wrote have to do with what I typed?   I honestly don't understand your connection process here. Please expound or clarify.

 

2) Alright, thank you for admitting you have no source for the raping allegation. Now, please provide the codex about the Tevinter cities starving to death. I honestly do not remember seeing that. I'd like the source so I can read it myself.