503 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

1) What? What does that sentence you just wrote have to do with what I typed?   I honestly don't understand your connection process here. 

 

2) Alright, thank you for admitting you have no source for the raping allegation. Now, please provide the codex about the Tevinter cities starving to death. I honestly do not remember seeing that. I'd like the source so I can read it myself.

 

1. I'm not sure what other connection you are looking for. It was general discussion about thread title. Many of actions, even in real life are justified with fighting for one's people, and we only get to read what the victors wrote about it.

 

2. Don't you remember the dialogues? I'm not sure what to look for right now to get to the page via google, but allegedly the maker himself helped Andraste by starving Tevinter, I'm sure others here can confirm. Otherwise she couldn't win against sheer force of Tevinter. And thank you for admitting barbarians are actually capable of that, and acknowledging that this crime happened in 99% of the wars, real or fiction.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

1. I'm not sure what other connection you are looking for. It was general discussion about thread title. Many of actions, even in real life are justified with fighting for one's people, and we only get to read what the victors wrote about it.

 

2. Don't you remember the dialogues? I'm not sure what to look for right now to get to the page via google, but allegedly the maker himself helped Andraste by starving Tevinter, I'm sure others here can confirm. And thank you for admitting barbarians are actually capable of that, and acknowledging that his crime happened in 99% of the wards, real or fiction.

 

1) You're constant attempts to connect Solas to Andraste is what is confusing to me. Are you trying to say that people can't be against Solas' plans without being equally against Andraste? B/c the two are not equivalent. Andraste's rebellion resembles Solas' fight against slavery and the Evanuris back in the days of Arlathan, if you must draw parallels between them.

 

But her rebellion bears no resemblance to what Solas is planning to do now. She wasn't going to wipe out all the people of the world to restore her avvar tribe or something. She was fighting against a tyrannical regime that oppressed all people on the continent. Solas is not doing that here. 

 

2) No, I don't remember any dialogues about starvation. I remember an entry in WoT v2 about some convenient earthquakes opening up a path for her army, but that's really all I recall. And that doesn't involve starvation, so if you could provide the source when you have time, I'd appreciate it.

 

And I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but you're welcome. 

[Almostfaceman]

  

The single nation Andraste warred against is still there for crying out loud and they worship her!

 

No, she warred against the Tevinter Imperium and they don't consider her the Bride of the Maker. That's one of the reasons why there's two Divines. 

 

"While the Chantry of Orlais believes that Andraste was divine, and was taken up to stand beside the Maker when she died, the Imperial Chantry maintains she was just a mortal prophet with considerable magical talent, even if she is a symbol of hope. While the Imperial Chantry still respects and honors Andraste considerably, they forbid the worship of her that is practiced in the Orlesian Chantry and instead focus only on worshiping the Maker."

 

http://dragonage.wik...mperial_Chantry

[Almostfaceman]

1) You're constant attempts to connect Solas to Andraste is what is confusing to me. Are you trying to say that people can't be against Solas' plans without being equally against Andraste? B/c the two are not equivalent. Andraste's rebellion resembles Solas' fight against slavery and the Evanuris back in the days of Arlathan, if you must draw parallels between them.

 

But her rebellion bears no resemblance to what Solas is planning to do now. She wasn't going to wipe out all the people of the world to restore her avvar tribe or something. She was fighting against a tyrannical regime that oppressed all people on the continent. Solas is not doing that here. 

 

2) No, I don't remember any dialogues about starvation. I remember an entry in WoT v2 about some convenient earthquakes opening up a path for her army, but that's really all I recall. And that doesn't involve starvation, so if you could provide the source when you have time, I'd appreciate it.

 

And I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but you're welcome. 

 

I think the point they're trying to make is that change in Thedas has always been violent. Solas is not unique in that regard. 

[dragonflight288]

Lulupab, the dialogue is in origins in the temple of sacred ashes.

One of the riddlers says the maker scorched the land and famine was the weapon used before Andraste prayed and the rains came.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think the point they're trying to make is that change in Thedas has always been violent. Solas is not unique in that regard. 

 

Sure. But he is unique that his method of change involves utterly destroying the world and all of its non-ancient elf inhabitants. Even Corypheus planned on ruling the world as some kind of God-King instead dissolving it into ashes. 

[Medhia_Nox]

So the ends justify the means? Murdering a 2 year child is murder, so is murdering an old man. Just because Tevinter's crimes were bigger, that doesn't mean Orlais gets any lenience, and I'm just using Orlais as an example. Same applies to elven nation that inhabited most of Thedas. They had more power and power is a tool, so they were both capable of bigger good and bigger atrocities.

 

You are confusing morality and intelligence. Solas doesn't lack anything in the latter, and former is most of the time subjective and on the gray area. I don't particularly want the current system of Thedas to end, but I'm not very opposed to a change. Its the only option Bioware has provided for making a better lives for Elves. Maybe Solas simply destroys a single human nation and makes it Elven, not only its very early to judge anything for certain, you provide us with the blacks in your opinions but not the whites. Who do you think are the good guys in Thedas apart from player controlled characters and their affiliations since they don't count for obvious reasons? I mean you are so sure Solas is "vile", tell me who isn't.

 

Why do I have to believe any nation is good to believe Solas to be vile?

Is the next story going to be about Tevinter slavery?  Cause I oppose that. 

 

Is the next story going to be about "The Game" of Orlais?  Cause I oppose that.

 

Is the next story going to be about the caste system of Orzamaar?  Cause I oppose that.

 

No... it's very likely going to be about a speciest elf who wants to rebirth a decadent and corrupt civilization that destroyed everything in its path... by wiping away all current civilization with a super-weapon.  And I will absolutely oppose that.  

 

He's not complex... he's a megalomaniac that is guilty of everything he levels against the other Evanuris.  

 

Yes... I "could" roleplay an elf that supports Solas - but my description would be a deranged elf with a giant chip on his shoulder who has delusions of grandeur after he willingly sets the world ablaze... not, a deep character with vast seas of moral complexity who is fine with committing genocide, but is really sad about it.  Cause the later is utter bullshit to me.  

 

NOTE:  I don't "hate" Solas... he's a fictional character that is, to me, a twirly mustache comedy of evil.  

 

However, were I the Inquisitor... I would very much hate Solas and devote my existence to ensuring what he plans never occurs. 

[TobiTobsen]

Somehow placing Andrastes slave rebellion on the same level as Solas "Remember the good ol' days?" genocide campaign amuses me to no end.

 

Andraste didn't kick down the door of reality. Andraste didn't threw everybody but her own tribe under the bus. Andraste wasn't bullshitting her followers into helping her and then let them take one for the team... that, surprise!, isn't even their own team.

 

Solas is doing all that and it amazes me that quite a few people, just like the elves ingame, are actually supporting what he is doing. The elven players even have the knowledge advantage that Solas told them straight to their face that modern elves are NOT his people. He isn't going to uplift them or something. They are going down, along with the rest of Thedas, to make way for his good old days of vivid racism, elven on elven slavery, unchecked mage tyrants proclaiming themselves gods, spirits and demons walking the earth and blood magic resource wars against the dwarves and titans.

 

Ingame elves at least don't have that knowledge. Nonetheless I still don't know why they think that joining the elven god of asshattery would be a good idea. He's probably lying on that point once again.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

To be fair, Solas doesn't specifically want the "good ole days" of god-tyrant mage-kings back (or by extension the slavery and "blood magic resource wars"  ). He wants to restore the world's state to pre-veil (aka fade and physical world intermingled, as is their natural state). Cus that's what he broke. And by doing so he believes he'll make the world right again for his people (the ancient elves) to thrive in again, and do so fully, as opposed to the limitations placed on them in the post-veil world, like mortality.

 

But he's not including the Evanuris in that. He had "plans" for them, and I doubt those plans included giving them back the thrones he worked so hard to unseat them from. He doesn't want them back in charge, enslaving others of the People, or, i'd venture to say, killing titans & dwarves.

 

And, since some poster here will probably say this, there's nothing saying he wants to be in charge either, once its all said and done. In fact, he talks as if he doesn't expect to survive all of this, if you choose certain dialogue. IMO, he's basically gonna hit a reset button, die in the attempt along with the Evanuris, and hope for the best with the ancient elves that arise from the ashes.

 

That said, history has shown that Solas' intentions don't always bear out when his plans come together. But I think motivation is at least a bit important and should be accurately noted.

 

 

Ingame elves at least don't have that knowledge. Nonetheless I still don't know why they think that joining the elven god of asshattery would be a good idea. He's probably lying on that point once again.

Yeah. If Dalish, of all elves, are joining him, he *can't* be telling them he's Fen'Harel. There's no way. City elves, I could see joining him knowing he's supposed to be Fen'Harel. Maybe. But in general the Dalish take those old stories seriously. And Fen'Harel is basically elf-satan in those b/c of what he did to the creators and is to blame for their lack of help when the humans came calling, they lost their immortality, etc.. I mean, we all know the full story behind that, but they don't. Dalish following him only makes sense if he's hidden his identity and/or is working through proxys.

[TobiTobsen]

 

To be fair, Solas doesn't specifically want the "good ole days" of god-tyrant mage-kings back (or by extension the slavery and "blood magic resource wars"  ). He wants to restore the world's state to pre-veil (aka fade and physical world intermingled, as is their natural state). Cus that's what he broke. And by doing so he believes he'll make the world right again for his people (the ancient elves) to thrive in again, and do so fully, as opposed to the limitations placed on them in the post-veil world, like mortality.

 

But he's not including the Evanuris in that. He had "plans" for them, and I doubt those plans included giving them back the thrones he worked so hard to unseat them from. He doesn't want them back in charge, enslaving others of the People, or, i'd venture to say, killing titans & dwarves.

 

 

Meh... seeing how Solas other "plans" went, I don't have much faith in his "Evanuris? Don't worry. I'll deal with them!" approach. After all the last time he tried that it didn't work out so well, did it?

[Lulupab]

Meh... seeing how Solas other "plans" went, I don't have much faith in his "Evanuris? Don't worry. I'll deal with them!" approach. After all the last time he tried that it didn't work out so well, did it?

 

Again to be fair, he couldn't petrify people with thought when his plans when awry earlier in the story. The Solas in Trespasser state can eat Corypheus for breakfast.

 

Plus he was getting used to new state of the world.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Meh... seeing how Solas other "plans" went, I don't have much faith in his "Evanuris? Don't worry. I'll deal with them!" approach. After all the last time he tried that it didn't work out so well, did it?

To quote the man himself, "I never said it was a good plan."

[ComedicSociopathy]

Again to be fair, he couldn't petrify people with thought when his plans when awry earlier in the story. The Solas in Trespasser state can eat Corypheus for breakfast.

 

Plus he was getting used to new state of the world.

 

Yeah...

 

Solas and his plans tend to backfire spectacularly. Create the Veil. Backfired. Use Felassan to access the eluvians. Backfired. Give Corypheus the orb. Astounding backfire.

 

Seriously, I'm calling it right now, Anduril is gonna be free and skinning elves for sport once again when Solas's new plan blows up in his face. 

 

Again.

[TobiTobsen]

To quote the man himself, "I never said it was a good plan."

 

"Hindsight is 20/20." - canticle of Fen'Harel, 9:45 Dragon Age

 

[Lulupab]

Yeah...

 

Solas and his plans tend to backfire spectacularly. Create the Veil. Backfired. Use Felassan to access the eluvians. Backfired. Give Corypheus the orb. Astounding backfire.

 

Seriously, I'm calling it right now, Anduril is gonna be free and skinning elves for sport once again when Solas's new plan blows up in his face. 

 

Again.

 

Wasn't the backfire of creating the veil better than not doing it?

[ComedicSociopathy]

Wasn't the backfire of creating the veil better than not doing it?

 

Quite right! So taking it down is stupid. Glad we agree! 

[Medhia_Nox]

Wasn't the backfire of creating the veil better than not doing it?

There's no way for us to actually know.  

Solas the Deceiver tells us that it is... in the same conversation that he says he uses people toward his own aims unapologetically. 

 

But the man admits that when the veil was down... his buddies the Evanuris became world shaking psychopaths. 

 

And now... he wants to bring that world back... so, what... there can be MORE world shaking psychopaths?  As if nobody is ever going to learn how to do what the Evanuris did? 

 

I think he's as blind as he is bald. 

[Lulupab]

Yes, he is not perfect, which adds to his character overall.

 

Its the best villain/anti-hero type character Bioware has given us, bask in it mortals.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, he is not perfect, which adds to his character overall.

 

Its the best villain/anti-hero type character Bioware has given us, bask in it mortals.

Solas isn't even the best villain/anti-hero Bioware has given us in Dragon Age games, let alone overall. 

[Lulupab]

Solas isn't even the best villain/anti-hero Bioware has given us in Dragon Age games, let alone overall. 

 

Then who? Corypheus? "LOL LOOK AT ME, I'M AN EVIL MAGISTER-GOD-MONSTER"

 

He is in fact the best one in DA series. And a very good candidate for rest of Bioware games. Clearly thought has been put into his creation since DAO.

[Karmel]

Solas likes a bit exaggerate, when he speaks of destruction...

 

Trespasser ending:

S: "Thus I freed the elven people and, in so doing, destroyed their world."

I: "How did creating the Veil destroy the world?"

S: "You saw the remains of Vir Dirthara. The library was intrinsically tied to the Fade, and the Veil destroyed it. There were countless other marvels, all dependent on the presence of the Fade, all destroyed. The elven legends of immortality? All true. It was not the arrival of humans that caused them to begin aging. It was me. The Veil took everything from the elves, even themselves."

 

And:

 

S: "Had I not create the Veil, the Evanuris would have destroyed the entire world."

 

About Mythal:

 

S: "She was the best of them. She cared for her people. She protected them. She was the voice of reason. (...)"

 

About Cory:

 

S: "Corypheus shoud have died unlocking my orb. When he survived, my plans were thrown into chaos. When you survived, I saw the Inquisition as the best hope this world had of stopping him. (...) The plan was for Corypheus to unlock it, and for the resulting explosion to kill him. Then I would claim the orb."

 

What's next?

 

I: "That's the past. What about the future?"

S: " (...) I will save the elven people, even if it means this world must die. (...) I am not Corypheus. I take no joy in this. But the return of my people means the end of yours. (...) I would have entered the Fade, using the mark you now bear. Then I would have torn down the Veil. As this world burned in the raw chaos, I would have restored the world of my time... The world of the elves. (...) If they must die, I would rather they die in comfort."

 

So, summarize... When Solas says he intends to destroy the world - we have the accurate point of reference, as he once did - with the world of elves. And 4000 years later in Thedas elves, and even elvhen still exist... Removing the Veil and "world burned in the raw chaos" might simply means a new social order and other environmental factors. They do not expect the genocide, but rather the tsunami... I hope you know, what I means.

 

His description of Mythal, his friend, suggests what Solas valued the most. Calling him a racist, is a serious misunderstanding. I'll end on that, to not offend anyone unnecessarily.

 

According to the plane, Cory should have unlock an orb and ... die. These words strongly suggest that Solas wanted to remove the threat before it become one. Judging by the fact that the Magister lacked the power to remove the Anchor, during unlocking the same thing must happened, what happened in the temple of Mythal - death ... and rebirth. I can not in good conscience charge Fen'Harel for it, because Corypheus probably would have found another way to reach his goal. And during DA:I, in fact, attempted to... Without Solas and his knowledge about the Void, we'd be in deep sh...

 

What means "world of the elves"?

 

For the current Thedas? They will lose the slaves / cheap labor. They will therefore have to themselves take to work, impoverished... And they will not have no one to whom they could unload their frustration with impunity.

 

And the elves? They will once again be immortal, regain the old knowledge and the power of magic. They will soon dictate terms and be willing to settle bills.

 

And Solas may be referring to just that. Before you disagree, remember that at the time of Arlathan in Thedas also lived dwarves, so restoring the world of the elves, does not mean that other races must die... Well, unless people do not want to move to alienages.   Then it can go different ways. 

 

 

Meh... seeing how Solas other "plans" went, I don't have much faith in his "Evanuris? Don't worry. I'll deal with them!" approach. After all the last time he tried that it didn't work out so well, did it? 

 

 

Therefore, Fen'Harel counting on the Inquisition or ex-Inquisition... 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Then who? Corypheus? "LOL LOOK AT ME, I'M AN EVIL MAGISTER-GOD-MONSTER"

 

He is in fact the best one in DA series.

Loghain is the best villain/anti-hero Dragon Age has produced so far. Even Meredith is better than Solas is. Solas is more along the lines of villains like Howe or Anders.

[almasy87]

Mmmh..

Why does everyone assume that when the veil is down and the Fade "takes over" everyone is going to die?
Solas thinks this.. Which is why during one of his dialogues he says "You were never going to wake up. How could you? A human sent physically through the Fade".
But then again he seems quite surprised when you again get physically into the Fade (if you take him with you) - and that was quite a lot of them: 4 party members + Hawke + Warden - they seem to fare quite well in there.. Sure it's "creepy" and you see demons and whatnot - but that's just because they are not really used to it, to them it's something new. He doesn't seem phased at all.


And.. if his greatest fear is dying alone, if everybody would die (even the Elves that he is recruiting), wouldn't that make no sense? Who would be left with him? Him, the Evanuris(if he can't contain them) and.. Abelas and a few like him(?). That seems kinda stupid - although if that's what he really wants.. but what kind of a world is that?

Plus yeah, the fact that the world would "burn in chaos" can also be a metaphor. It doesn't mean that it's actually going to burn to ashes. It will be chaotic and sure, a big chunk of "weak" people might not make it. But I don't think everyone would die.. I'm sure humans would find a way to adapt..

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why does everyone assume that when the veil is down and the Fade "takes over" everyone is going to die?

Because Solas says so. The Inquisitor asks if Solas would really murder all the people of Thedas, and his response is "Wouldn't you to save your own?". Dwarves, Human, Qunari, and even modern Elves he doesn't see as people and will destroy them to bring the world of the ancient elves back. There are enough ancient elves apparently, from Abelas and those at the Temple of Mythal to those in other places as Solas tells Abelas to those trapped on the Fade side to repopulate the world, especially since they are ageless. 

[Lulupab]

Loghain is the best villain/anti-hero Dragon Age has produced so far. Even Meredith is better than Solas is. 

 

Solas is more among the ranks of Anders or Howe: a villain/anti-hero with no redeemable qualities or sympathetic intentions. Solas is just a genocidal lunatic. 

 

Meredith has no redeemable qualities, she was damaged beyond repair. You have a dialogue with Cullen that says she was pretty much lost way before getting in contact with Red Lyrium.

 

Loghain is a good one, but he is very typical paranoid nationalist.

 

Solas was there from the beginning. Saved Inquisitor's life, saved Inquisition itself. Was quite emotional and sympathetic towards many events. He is the last hope of Elves on Thedas, if anyone was going to help them, they had a thousand year to do so. No one did.

 

Howe is just means to an end. I'm not even going to talk about him.

 

As for Anders, he is not even a villain and pure anti-hero and he has a lot more redeemable qualities than Meredith. While having a spirit that screams Vengeance inside him, he can love, he can heal, cares nothing for personal gain be it money or otherwise and is pretty much incorruptible in a sense that you cannot trick or force him to stray away from his goals. Plus he is an underdog. He doesn't have power like Meredith and Loghain do. Another anti-hero quality. Villains are almost never underdogs.

 

Back to Solas he has a very clear character arch in opposed to your examples who go crazy and lustful for power in an instant without any room for character development. The shock everyone had at the end with Solas and Flemeth clearly shows this. I'm sorry but Loghain and Meredith are ants in comparison. Look around you, even in this forum, the evidence is everywhere. Solas was planned to be what he is since Fen'harrel was mentioned, and that dates back to beginning of DAO. Stop using naive words like "lunatic".