503 réponses à ce sujet

[Karmel]

Three reasons, two of them meta and one of them not.

 

For the not meta reason, well he's trying to kill pretty much everyone and is already responsible for the deaths of a hell of a lot of people. I've gone on at length about this in other threads so I won't take up a lot of space with it here.

 

For the meta reasons... well, first of all I'm irked that I'm supposed to feel more sympathy for Solas than I was for Corypheus when they're exactly the same in all the ways that matter. Corypheus had less remorse, less guilt, didn't apologize, but at the end of the day what he was doing was, in every meaningful way, exactly what Solas is trying to do now. He was trying to restore his homeland to it's former glory at the expense of everyone else. I have no more sympathy for Solas than I did for Corypheus. If anything, I have less.

 

The second meta reason is actually completely unrelated to Solas himself or any of his actions. It's his position on the Grey Wardens and what that means on the meta level. I've ranted elsewhere about my absolute disdain for the rout they're going with the Wardens and the Old Gods and the Blight. If that plotline is going to be what I think it is - and pretty much everyone agrees that it is - I am going to lose my ****. Solas has the unfortunate position of being the mouth piece for that plotline, so he gets a fair bit of hatred by proxy from me for that. I'm also not particularly fond of his arguments against the Qun, but that's a minor thing compared to everything else.

 

Ultimately they missed every mark they could with me to get me to sympathize with Solas at all. I see how others can find him sympathetic, but I cannot find it in me to sympathize with him at all. And it's not that I'm incapable of sympathizing with morally compromised characters. Loghain is my favorite character in the franchise. I'm a huge fan of Oghren, Sten, Zevran, Morrigan, Merrill, Isabela, Blackwall, Bull, the Arishok. In the ME franchise I'm a huge fan of Miranda, Jack, Thane, Zaeed, and Mordin. All of these characters have done very morally questionable to out and out evil things, and I love them not in spite of that, but often because of it. Because of the complexity of their morality, because of their flawed, broken natures. 

 

With Solas.... I just want to stab him in the gut, spit on him as he lays there bleeding to death, and walk away as he curses my name in impotent anger. Honestly I give Bioware credit because they managed to get a very visceral reaction out of me with Solas in regards to how much I just want to kill him. 

 

Thank you.  This is the most honest answer to the question in this topic.

 

With such an argument you can not argue, and you can not reason with it. You have the inalienable right to your opinion. (I say this sincerely, without a bit of sarcasm.)

 

If you are a person who wants to keep the status quo, the order of things and works only within the current system, then you have a good chance not find a common ground with Solas, at all.

 

If you like the rebels, punks, revolutionaries, if you put freedom above everything else and do not have excessive respect for authority - go for Fen'Harel.

 

It would be good to emphasize, however, that the Solas' plans, is primarily a convenient excuse to justify such "hatred". A secondary issue is whether he plans to kill a million or just one person (I know it's important, but apparently not as much as you suggest...). And even less - the reasons why he does it. The point is, you want to get him down. Period.

 

Personally, I like Solas, but I'm not a crazy fan. If we get such an option, I will also hunt Fen'Harel in one go. So let's stop pretending that condemnation / justification Solas' intentions, is something you can rationalize and measure, and determine who is right. It all depends on our personal feelings to him and to the world (virtual one, but real one, too). It must be admitted that BioWare has attained mastery of its trade - Solas leaves very few people indifferent.

[kimgoold]

True, I agree he did lie and is planning to destroy the world, but he is not happy about. He simply can not see another way and admits that it is not the best choice. He grew so much while with the inquisition and has come to realize that people are more than what he first believed. As for giving Corypheus the orb, yes a bad choice, but not directly done by him though he did allow it to happen. He assumed Corypheus would die which should have been so, but he had no way of knowing he'd discovered the key to effective immortality, so I can let that one slide, it's an honest mistake! I also have my doubts that he will even be able to follow through on his plan or let the mark kill the inquisitor. I did forgive Anders in DA2 even though he blew up the chantry and started a war too though, so....Fenris was awesome too though, so maybe I just like the whole tortured elf role

Solas did say he planned to just pick up said orb from dead Corpyfish when the orb killed him in explosion unlocking it and just go onto KILL everyone himself, except Inquisitor got the anchor by mistake first. I'm a huge elf fan myself, but he's no Zevran or Fenris.

[Medhia_Nox]

 

Thank you.  This is the most honest answer to the question in this topic.

 

With such an argument you can not argue, and you can not reason with it. You have the inalienable right to your opinion. (I say this sincerely, without a bit of sarcasm.)

 

If you are a person who wants to keep the status quo, the order of things and works only within the current system, then you have a good chance not find a common ground with Solas, at all.

 

If you like the rebels, punks, revolutionaries, if you put freedom above everything else and do not have excessive respect for authority - go for Fen'Harel.

 

It would be good to emphasize, however, that the Solas' plans, is primarily a convenient excuse to justify such "hatred". A secondary issue is whether he plans to kill a million or just one person (I know it's important, but apparently not as much as you suggest...). And even less - the reasons why he does it. The point is, you want to get him down. Period.

 

Personally, I like Solas, but I'm not a crazy fan. If we get such an option, I will also hunt Fen'Harel in one go. So let's stop pretending that condemnation / justification Solas' intentions, is something you can rationalize and measure, and determine who is right. It all depends on our personal feelings to him and to the world (virtual one, but real one, too). It must be admitted that BioWare has attained mastery of its trade - Solas leaves very few people indifferent.

 

 

Sorry, I'm calling bullcrap.  

 

Solas isn't a "rebel, punk, freedom loving individualist"  - there are millions of people on Thedas... and he wants to take away their individual freedoms because HE has decided it's what "should be done".

 

 He has a billion OTHER options... including... working with the modern peoples to bring a renaissance of magic and understanding where the discussion of lowering the Veil can be an informed one for ALL peoples.  But hey, that's not angsty enough I suppose... not morally grey enough for people who can't stand making the hard choices. 

 

And you act like "the status quo" is some bad thing when it means that those millions of people are not dead. 

 

And are people REALLY saying:  "It's okay to kill everyone, so long as you're not happy about it?"  I find that demented. 

[Karmel]

Sorry, I'm calling bullcrap.  

 

Solas isn't a "rebel, punk, freedom loving individualist"  - there are millions of people on Thedas... and he wants to take away their individual freedoms because HE has decided it's what "should be done".

 

 He has a billion OTHER options... including... working with the modern peoples to bring a renaissance of magic and understanding where the discussion of lowering the Veil can be an informed one for ALL peoples.  But hey, that's not angsty enough I suppose... not morally grey enough for people who can't stand making the hard choices. 

 

And you act like "the status quo" is some bad thing when it means that those millions of people are not dead. 

 

And are people REALLY saying:  "It's okay to kill everyone, so long as you're not happy about it?"  I find that demented. 

 

Ok. So... Quick quiz.

 

You're an inventor. Your species is suffering from a strange disease, threatening the whole population with extinction. You create a cure (under time pressure) and let yourself hibernate. When you wake up - it turns out that everyone in the world (for many generations) are blind.

 

Nobody distinguish red from green. Many are killed because of their limitations - bumping into something or falling from a height (well, whatever you like) ... They lost also all the knowledge about the causes of disease and death, using only methods that you can qualify solely as primitive.

 

But ... They do not have problem with it, because they simply do not have a clue that someone may have the ability to see! They do not know what they are missing, do not know that gaze is very useful. Or how wonderful it is to see the sunrise, sweetheart's blush, a child's smile ... Some of them have some strange phantoms in a dream. Therefore the rest keep them under lock and key and treated "dreamers" with great reserve.

 

What are you doing?

 

A. blinding yourself (you do not want to be "the One", always different and lonely)

B. you leave it as it is (around is more and more edges and more and more people die, but they come to terms with it, because nothing can be done)

C. you're smart one, you can unscrew the effects of drug administration. Some of them can begin to see, the next generation will be completely healthy, but it is a price - you have to spend most of the visually impaired to make a vaccine, and the rest of them - from now on - will be aware of their limitations.

 

Which of these things makes you a good / bad man?

 

And more: if you knew that this blind society digs near the lab, where you were kept locked up all deadly viruses known to science, being on the verge of releasing them into the world? If you tried to warn them before (several times), but always was considered funny / sinister lunatic, hell-bent on their strange theory? If you were aware that all of you awaits the inevitable change, whose face as a sighted person will be much better?

[Cobra's_back]

This doesn't refute my point at all. "your people" in the context of a dwarf, human, qunari, or a "modern" elf simply means anyone he doesn't see as on his side. You'll notice he doesn't even bother to ask the Inquisitor, elven or not, to join him. Bioware very deliberately made the Inquisitor a character who wouldn't be okay with millions of people dying to restore the elves. 

 

Bioware did the same thing with Shepard... you couldn't play him as a villain no matter how much you wanted to do so. 

The problem with this statement is this: " Why do they have to die?" You can ask him, and he states, It would be easy to tell you why, but I can't. It appears he needs everyone to die.

 

Question for everyone:

 

1. Picture a world without the veil and spirits everywhere. They are directly influenced by Elve's and Human's behavior. So do these modern people have to dies so his Spirits and Ancient Elves can blossom again. In the Masked Empire a whole tribe of Elves is wiped out because of the choice demon. I'm not sure the modern Elves are going to have an easier time with spirits everywhere.

[Cobra's_back]

 

Ok. So... Quick quiz.

 

You're an inventor. Your species is suffering from a strange disease, threatening the whole population with extinction. You create a cure (under time pressure) and let yourself hibernate. When you wake up - it turns out that everyone in the world (for many generations) are blind.

 

Nobody distinguish red from green. Many are killed because of their limitations - bumping into something or falling from a height (well, whatever you like) ... They lost also all the knowledge about the causes of disease and death, using only methods that you can qualify solely as primitive.

 

But ... They do not have problem with it, because they simply do not have a clue that someone may have the ability to see! They do not know what they are missing, do not know that gaze is very useful. Or how wonderful it is to see the sunrise, sweetheart's blush, a child's smile ... Some of them have some strange phantoms in a dream. Therefore the rest keep them under lock and key and treated "dreamers" with great reserve.

 

What are you doing?

 

A. blinding yourself (you do not want to be "the One", always different and lonely)

B. you leave it as it is (around is more and more edges and more and more people die, but they come to terms with it, because nothing can be done)

C. you're smart one, you can unscrew the effects of drug administration. Some of them can begin to see, the next generation will be completely healthy, but it is a price - you have to spend most of the visually impaired to make a vaccine, and the rest of them - from now on - will be aware of their limitations.

 

Which of these things makes you a good / bad man?

 

And more: if you knew that this blind society digs near the lab, where you were kept locked up all deadly viruses known to science, being on the verge of releasing them into the world? If you tried to warn them before (several times), but always was considered funny / sinister lunatic, hell-bent on their strange theory? If you were aware that all of you awaits the inevitable change, whose face as a sighted person will be much better?

 

 

Not a solution and not a smart path. Going back to what didn't work is like giving up to finding a real solution. Solas stated, "Ancient Elves were going to destroy the world". It is never a good idea to sleep for a 1000 years. It makes the person out-of-touch.

 

The real solution could require solving what actually caused the blight and removing it. It was the Elves that may have actually started it by mistake. The real solution could require communicating with actual makers or Titans. Ancient Elves with magic had very little respect for cause and effect. Solas is a walking disaster and not a problem solver.

[Medhia_Nox]

The problem with this statement is this: " Why do they have to die?" You can ask him, and he states, It would be easy to tell you why, but I can't. It appears he needs everyone to die.

 

Question for everyone:

 

1. Picture a world without the veil and spirits everywhere. They are directly influenced by Elve's and Human's behavior. So do these modern people have to dies so his Spirits and Ancient Elves can blossom again. In the Masked Empire a whole tribe of Elves is wiped out because of the choice demon. I'm not sure the modern Elves are going to have an easier time with spirits everywhere.

 

His response to that question drives me mad... and only illuminates how much of a tyrant he is.  "I could tell you, but then you would know I'm full of ****." 

 

@Karmel:  I find all your solutions limited and "bad".  We're supposed to be dealing with a being that has lived for thousands of years - and even in his sleep he explored the world.  

 

That the some of the same forumites that hate something like "The Maker" also resoundingly jump behind Solas as "an authority" is laughable to me.  

 

Solas is clearly a failure... his rebellion destroyed the civilization he was trying to save.. and then, what - he slept for several thousand years in the Fade like a coward.  

 

- Where was he when the elven civilization was falling apart?

- Why didn't he try to help the elves rebuild AFTER he had destroyed his own civilization. 

- Where was he when Tevinter was on the rise and enslaving his people and sinking Arlathan (I don't think this happened btw)

- Why did he have to wait thousands of years to try to repair the Veil? 

- Why didn't he contact Mythal before all this?  SHE is clearly here trying to help... even if only for her own ends - she clearly has assisted in stopping the Blight and assisting Hawke (which put into motion many of the events that lead directly to the Inquisitor being where he was to cause what he did).  

- Why did he think giving a darkspawn magister his orb was a good idea when he could have simply waited a few more years and consolidated his power... you know, like he had by the time of Trespasser?

 

It won't shock me in the least that his fans will come up with all sorts of explanations for him to have "good reasons" for these events other than... careless powermongering and total disregard for anyone elses well being.  

[Karmel]

Not a solution and not a smart path. Going back to what didn't work is like giving up to finding a real solution. Solas stated, "Ancient Elves were going to destroy the world". It is never a good idea to sleep for a 1000 years. It makes the person out-of-touch.

 

The real solution could require solving what actually caused the blight and removing it. It was the Elves that may have actually started it by mistake. The real solution could require communicating with actual makers or Titans. Ancient Elves with magic had very little respect for cause and effect. Solas is a walking disaster and not a problem solver.

 

Once again ... "cure" resulted in blindness. And you created it. What are you doing?

 

It's a quiz. Offer your answer (solution) if you can, please.

 

In addition, the issue was not coexistence elves, dwarves and ghosts, but the Evanuris' actions, they were a "disease" which Solas wanted to "heal".

[Medhia_Nox]

 

Once again ... "cure" resulted in blindness. And you created it. What are you doing?

 

It's a quiz. Offer your answer (solution) if you can, please.

 

In addition, the issue was not coexistence elves, dwarves and ghosts, but the Evanuris' actions, they were a "disease" which Solas wanted to "heal".

 

 

Where is your proof that it was the other Evanuris that were the problem?  Solas' "word"? 

[Karmel]

His response to that question drives me mad... and only illuminates how much of a tyrant he is.  "I could tell you, but then you would know I'm full of ****." 

 

@Karmel:  I find all your solutions limited and "bad".  We're supposed to be dealing with a being that has lived for thousands of years - and even in his sleep he explored the world.  

 

That the some of the same forumites that hate something like "The Maker" also resoundingly jump behind Solas as "an authority" is laughable to me.  

 

Solas is clearly a failure... his rebellion destroyed the civilization he was trying to save.. and then, what - he slept for several thousand years in the Fade like a coward.  

 

- Where was he when the elven civilization was falling apart?

- Why didn't he try to help the elves rebuild AFTER he had destroyed his own civilization. 

- Where was he when Tevinter was on the rise and enslaving his people and sinking Arlathan (I don't think this happened btw)

- Why did he have to wait thousands of years to try to repair the Veil? 

- Why didn't he contact Mythal before all this?  SHE is clearly here trying to help... even if only for her own ends - she clearly has assisted in stopping the Blight and assisting Hawke (which put into motion many of the events that lead directly to the Inquisitor being where he was to cause what he did).  

- Why did he think giving a darkspawn magister his orb was a good idea when he could have simply waited a few more years and consolidated his power... you know, like he had by the time of Trespasser?

 

It won't shock me in the least that his fans will come up with all sorts of explanations for him to have "good reasons" for these events other than... careless powermongering and total disregard for anyone elses well being.  

 

Well, I wait until the person who actually created Fen'Harel story answer to my questions (diffrent than Yours) in the next game or even later. If you read carefully what I wrote, I'm not a such big fan of Solas. I am open to many ways by which this story could go. You do not. You just want him down.

 

Solas learned that Mythal is alive only in Arbor Wilds. Before that Flemeth's Hut aroused his curiosity, but it was empty. It's hard to say why she didn't contact Solas, however.

 

And you believe that Mythal was helpful?

More than Solas? Interesting...

 

And if it turns out that Mythal / Flemeth saved Warden only in order to Morrigan could offer him her hocus-pocus, and get the soul of the Old God as a result? The arrangement with Hawke, was even simpler: a life for a life. He/she goes and brings with him/her a life insurance policy for the Witch. Certainly, it was not the only policy... Flemeth does not puts too much trust in people. If you know the Maric's story, then you know, that her aid comes always with a price.

 

I also do not see consistency in your appreciation for people. It is usually called double standards - one for enemies, the other for himself.

[Karmel]

Where is your proof that it was the other Evanuris that were the problem?  Solas' "word"? 

 

And where is your proof that Solas going to destroy the world? Is it not ... Solas' "word"?

[Silcron]

And where is your proof that Solas going to destroy the world? Is it not ... Solas' "word"?

This counter argument doesn't work.

He was questioning our knowledge of the Evanuris intentions. Solas say that his enemies, the Evanuris, were the problem. I'm pretty sure the Evanuris would say the same of him.

Here the only counterargument is that he is lying to us, but if not, well, who better to tell Solas intentions than Solas? No one else really knows what his intentions are, unless they were controling/reading his mind, because they are obviously not that person.

[tanuki]

Solas is clearly a failure... his rebellion destroyed the civilization he was trying to save.. and then, what - he slept for several thousand years in the Fade like a coward. 

I too find it strange. Although we don't really know if his sleep was voluntary or some kind of a price he had to pay for creating the Veil. It may be that it exhausted all his power and he had no choice but to fall asleep and to go to Uthenera or wherever he'd been all that time. I'm only speculating here though.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Karmel:  You're mistaking me if you think I think Flemeth is a good person.

 

As for Solas... if new information comes out and he proves to be more than what I am seeing - I am willing to change my tune. 

I did it for Cole - who, had he remained the Cole from the books, I would have banished from my sight - but instead, Cole admits he was horribly wrong and ignorant of what he did... 

 

I don't see Solas admitting he was ever wrong - aside from the platitudes he gives you about his failures - those are not admissions of being wrong - those were affirmations of mistakes needing correcting.  There's a huge difference.  The later is the actions of irredeemably arrogant people... prideful one might say... odd that it's Solas' name.  

 

My opinion?  Solas was once a Pride demon that became an elf (not unlike Cole is a compassion spirit that became a human).  

 

@tanuki:  It would be helpful if Solas wasn't so arrogantly obtuse about everything.  

[Aeratus]

@Karmel:  You're mistaking me if you think I think Flemeth is a good person.

 

As for Solas... if new information comes out and he proves to be more than what I am seeing - I am willing to change my tune. 

I did it for Cole - who, had he remained the Cole from the books, I would have banished from my sight - but instead, Cole admits he was horribly wrong and ignorant of what he did... 

 

I don't see Solas admitting he was ever wrong - aside from the platitudes he gives you about his failures - those are not admissions of being wrong - those were affirmations of mistakes needing correcting.  There's a huge difference.  The later is the actions of irredeemably arrogant people... prideful one might say... odd that it's Solas' name.  

 

My opinion?  Solas was once a Pride demon that became an elf (not unlike Cole is a compassion spirit that became a human).  

 

@tanuki:  It would be helpful if Solas wasn't so arrogantly obtuse about everything.  

 

Solas did admit he was wrong in handling the orb. He said "the failure was mine, I should be the one to pay the price" to Mythal. 

 

As for his future plans that you think are horrible, Solas hasn't done any of those things yet (or are you accusing him of thought-crime?). The DA keep has a player-choice option to redeem solas as an option. Bioware will give players that option. Bioware (Patrick Weeks, I should say) gave a lot of thought in developing Solas, and I think they did a good job in creating an interesting literary character. There is no way that they will cheapen Solas to be a one-dimensional villain like what you find some NES beat-em-up game. 

 

To be clear, Solas has a ton of character flaws. He is Pride after all. But that is what makes him fascinating. Everyone has some character flaw.

 

Pride isn't arrogance. Haven't you heard, "we are proud, but not arrogant" used in politics? 

[CardButton]

Solas did admit he was wrong in handling the orb. He said "the failure was mine, I should be the one to pay the price" to Mythal. 

 

As for his future plans that you think are horrible, Solas haven't done any of the things yet (or are you accusing him of thought-crime?). The DA keep has a player-choice option to redeem solas as an option. Bioware will give players that option. Bioware (Patrick Weeks, I should say) gave a lot of thought in developing Solas, and I think they did a good job and created a interesting literary character. There is no way that they will cheapen Solas to be a one-dimensional villain like what you find some NES beat-em-up game. 

 

To be clear, Solas has a ton of character flaws. He is Pride after all. But that is what makes him fascinating. Everyone has some character flaw.

 

Pride isn't arrogance. Haven't you heard, "we are proud, but not arrogant" used in politics? 

What was that line from Uncle Iroh?  "Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source. True Humility is the only antidote for shame."  

[Medhia_Nox]

Solas did admit he was wrong in handling the orb. He said "the failure was mine, I should be the one to pay the price" to Mythal. 

 

As for his future plans that you think are horrible, Solas hasn't done any of those things yet (or are you accusing him of thought-crime?). The DA keep has a player-choice option to redeem solas as an option. Bioware will give players that option. Bioware (Patrick Weeks, I should say) gave a lot of thought in developing Solas, and I think they did a good job in creating an interesting literary character. There is no way that they will cheapen Solas to be a one-dimensional villain like what you find some NES beat-em-up game. 

 

To be clear, Solas has a ton of character flaws. He is Pride after all. But that is what makes him fascinating. Everyone has some character flaw.

 

Pride isn't arrogance. Haven't you heard, "we are proud, but not arrogant" used in politics? 

 

You are, of course, free to find him well developed and interesting.  

 

I have heard his claims and am unmoved by his motivations to see anything but a megalomaniacal tyrant too arrogant to even consider that what he's doing is wrong.  

 

And if you think I'm going to wait for him to destroy the world before I try to stop him... that would be a tad ridiculous no?

We shouldn't meta because we KNOW we'll get to decide what happens.  

 

If I told you I was going to kill your family... would you wait till I killed your family to be really upset with me?  I would kinda hope you'd be upset with me for even suggesting this hypothetical.  

[Karmel]

This counter argument doesn't work.

He was questioning our knowledge of the Evanuris intentions. Solas say that his enemies, the Evanuris, were the problem. I'm pretty sure the Evanuris would say the same of him.

Here the only counterargument is that he is lying to us, but if not, well, who better to tell Solas intentions than Solas? No one else really knows what his intentions are, unless they were controling/reading his mind, because they are obviously not that person.

 

On the contrary, it works brilliantly.

 

I'm also pretty sure the Evanuris would say the same of him.

Solas was their problem and their enemy.

 

Elven Mountain Ruins-  this location explains why he was their problem and enemy.

 

"No one else really knows what his intentions are, unless they were controling/reading his mind, because they are obviously not that person."

 

That's what I try to emphasize all the time. 

 

Probably I surprise you, but I can read with understanding. Otherwise, I'm used to evaluate people by deeds, not words, and consider everything I know. And that's why I'm willing - at the Trespasser - give Solas the credit of trust.

 

I try - in a few posts - to stress that everyone has the right not to like Solas. But the issue of final judgments about it and insisting that this judgment be considered appropriate, it is at least immature. It is not I, who is strive for confrontation, and all my inconvenient questions and arguments are simply ignored.

 

Of course, I may recognize that Solas fabricated every evidence in his defense, except that nobody here can provide me with a credible argument ... Well, unless Patrick Weekes will do it personally.

 

@Medhia_Nox

No, Solas has no problem admitting to his mistakes, his doing it extremely often ... Just listen to his party banters with others.

Solas is proud, but not arrogant. And if you recall Cole - he is the one who to the end of Solas considers a friend, being clear and sad - not proud and bloodthirsty

[Former_Fiend]

 

Thank you.  This is the most honest answer to the question in this topic.

 

With such an argument you can not argue, and you can not reason with it. You have the inalienable right to your opinion. (I say this sincerely, without a bit of sarcasm.)

 

If you are a person who wants to keep the status quo, the order of things and works only within the current system, then you have a good chance not find a common ground with Solas, at all.

 

If you like the rebels, punks, revolutionaries, if you put freedom above everything else and do not have excessive respect for authority - go for Fen'Harel.

 

It would be good to emphasize, however, that the Solas' plans, is primarily a convenient excuse to justify such "hatred". A secondary issue is whether he plans to kill a million or just one person (I know it's important, but apparently not as much as you suggest...). And even less - the reasons why he does it. The point is, you want to get him down. Period.

 

Personally, I like Solas, but I'm not a crazy fan. If we get such an option, I will also hunt Fen'Harel in one go. So let's stop pretending that condemnation / justification Solas' intentions, is something you can rationalize and measure, and determine who is right. It all depends on our personal feelings to him and to the world (virtual one, but real one, too). It must be admitted that BioWare has attained mastery of its trade - Solas leaves very few people indifferent.

 

 

Well, there is a certain amount of Status Quo I would like to preserve and there is a certain amount of Status Quo I would like to obliterate. 

 

Status Quo I would like to preserve: I want the veil to stay right where it is. Tearing that down and letting the fade bleed into Thedas will turn the setting into something unrecognizable to me. It will take a low fantasy setting with a heavy focus on the struggles of regular people and turn it into the highest of high fantasy settings I can imagine. That isn't something I want. 

 

I also want to keep the Qun right where it is because, first off, I think the Qun and qunari are among the more unique and interesting elements to the setting, and their place opposite mainlan Thedas leaves a lot of room open for interesting conflict and tension that goes away once that comes to a head. 

 

Aside from that... honestly my biggest problem with DAI is that it is a game dedicated and devoted to protecting the status quo and the powers that be. No decision we make invokes true, lasting change. Who rules Orlais is mostly a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". The wardens might be kicked out of one country that they'll be let right back into the second they're needed. The Chantry endures, and the differences between the person we put on top are minor, with only Leliana affecting any serious change in the organization.

 

The entire game hammers in the idea that the standing institutions are necessary. That the Chantry needs to exist, that the Throne of Orlais needs to exist. That they bring order, stability. The vast majority of your companions hammer home this opinion. 

 

I don't want to change the standing institutions. I want to take a sledge hammer to them and tear them down to their foundations. And that's what I'm hoping DA4 will be. 

 

I just don't want to do it Solas' way, on Solas' terms, for Solas' reasons. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Karmel:  Again, there's a difference between a "mistake I am going to correct" and "a failure that needs to be considered".  

 

He isn't considering his mistakes... he knows he was wrong about the Veil (at least for his own aims) - he was wrong about Corypheus... and he "claims" to know he's wrong about humans... BUT, he's going to kill everyone anyway because he can't move on.  He gave me no reason to think the ancient elven world was superior.  Many codexes gave me a ton of reasons to think it utterly inferior (slaughter of dwarves, enslavement of elves, killing titans, hunting humans)

 

So... if Solas tells your PC in the next one:  "I am going to kill you so it can bring back my nation."  You're just going to offer your wrists to him eh?

 

If he's redeemable - I'll sadly think even less of him... just another poor Bioware tool to make the PC feel special. 

[Aren]

This describe my feeling on this topic...

 

[Karmel]

@Medhia_Nox

Let's see:

 

Megalomania definition, Psychiatry. a symptom of mental illness marked by delusions of greatness, wealth, etc.

Solas was regarded as a god by others, he wanted to be regarded as a man who does not throw orders, but gives advices... Which does not means that he was something insignificant, he took responsibility for great many things, hence justified pride.

 

Tyrant definition:

1. a sovereign or other ruler who uses power oppressively or unjustly.

2. any person in a position of authority who exercises power oppressively or despotically.

3. a tyrannical or compulsory influence.

4. an absolute ruler, especially one in ancient Greece or Sicily.

As above and also...

Slaves of real tyrants - Evanuris - went in large numbers under the protection of Fen'Harel. Each of them had the right to decide his own fate.

In the Hinterlands, Solas urging us to assist refugees many times. He is not worried about the fate of mages, he is not looking for allies at any cost. He is glad that the Inquisition helps those disadvantaged, because nobody else does. You could assume that's a lie or somekind of Game - I ask - what he wanted to accomplish with it? Evidently, he was not able to gain your trust. But BioWare has not added the content without reason.

 

"If I told you I was going to kill your family... would you wait till I killed your family (...) ?

 

And you would prefer me to kill you on the spot? Without asking for anything and not trying to reasoning with you? Or even attempt to stop you on time?

If I instead began planning to kill you and tried to stop you from recovering, what you love, by all means, I would be better?

 

And I will not again discuss that "kill your family" is not the right reference to what Solas said.

 

@Aeratus

"Pride isn't arrogance. (...)"

You wrote this before me, when I have edited my post. That's what I call: compatibility!

 

@Medhia_Nox

"BUT, he's going to kill everyone anyway because he can't move on.  He gave me no reason to think the ancient elven world was superior.  Many codexes gave me a ton of reasons to think it utterly inferior (slaughter of dwarves, enslavement of elves, killing titans, hunting humans)"

 

We've been through this. You do not know his reasons or the rest of his plans. There are also some signs that all may not be as bad as you paint it. You want to be a fatalist, be one, but I slowly begin to share feelings with @Aren. 

[Teddie Sage]

I don't hate him at all. In fact I want the Inquisition to redeem him in the next game as a friend. I also sided with the Mages as Hawke and romanced Anders which I ran away with, so I figure I'm open for change in Dragon Age.

[Illegitimus]

 

Ok. So... Quick quiz.

 

You're an inventor. Your species is suffering from a strange disease, threatening the whole population with extinction. You create a cure (under time pressure) and let yourself hibernate. When you wake up - it turns out that everyone in the world (for many generations) are blind.

 

Nobody distinguish red from green. Many are killed because of their limitations - bumping into something or falling from a height (well, whatever you like) ... They lost also all the knowledge about the causes of disease and death, using only methods that you can qualify solely as primitive.

 

But ... They do not have problem with it, because they simply do not have a clue that someone may have the ability to see! They do not know what they are missing, do not know that gaze is very useful. Or how wonderful it is to see the sunrise, sweetheart's blush, a child's smile ... Some of them have some strange phantoms in a dream. Therefore the rest keep them under lock and key and treated "dreamers" with great reserve.

 

What are you doing?

 

A. blinding yourself (you do not want to be "the One", always different and lonely)

B. you leave it as it is (around is more and more edges and more and more people die, but they come to terms with it, because nothing can be done)

C. you're smart one, you can unscrew the effects of drug administration. Some of them can begin to see, the next generation will be completely healthy, but it is a price - you have to spend most of the visually impaired to make a vaccine, and the rest of them - from now on - will be aware of their limitations.

 

Which of these things makes you a good / bad man?

 

And more: if you knew that this blind society digs near the lab, where you were kept locked up all deadly viruses known to science, being on the verge of releasing them into the world? If you tried to warn them before (several times), but always was considered funny / sinister lunatic, hell-bent on their strange theory? If you were aware that all of you awaits the inevitable change, whose face as a sighted person will be much better?

 

 

So, I won't give the blind people any choice about taking my cure and it will kill 99% of my patients.  Do I have that right?  

[Karmel]

So, I won't give the blind people any choice about taking my cure and it will kill 99% of my patients.  Do I have that right?  

 

I do not know you. So, you tell me.

 

Weight of power is based on the ability to make unpleasant choices. Or the ability to find other solutions. Just remember - that in this case you're smart, but you're not Maker, which will solve the problem snapping his fingers.