94 respuestas en este tema

[sortiv]

No, I don't buy indoctrination theory, as I understand it to be spelled out (that Bioware wrote it as some dream sequence). 

 

But Vendetta, the prothean VI, blatantly says the Crucible was never completed in their cycle because some of their people became indoctrinated and thought they should use the Crucible to control the Reapers. He says that almost verbatim. That's why they lost.

 

I'm not going to relist every IT shouting point, they're out there for people to read. But knowing all the discussion that has gone into this, and being aware of IT as a potential angle, it's next to impossible to think that Bioware didn't want the lingering suspicion of being controlled or tricked to be in the back of the player's mind. I think that is deliberately in the writing. 

 

I'm not saying everything after the beam run didn't happen. I'm saying it's clear you're meant to question whether you can trust what you're seeing and hearing after that point, and I think that's where the confusion and disagreement comes in. 

 

Oh, and side note: Star Kid still makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Every one of his explanations for everything is whack - every single one. He's clearly a rogue AI gone wrong and just because he has a weird echoey voice and employs vague pseudo-philosophical non sequiturs does not make him any less nuts and power hungry. He's weird.

 

Destroy option is all you should be doing. Again. Can't say this enough. Shoot that cool-aid tube every single time.

 

Keelah'selai.

[corkyspetals]

I agree with you up to a point.  I think the writers wanted us to think Shep was experiencing outside influences before The Choice.  The woozy focus and whispering voices point to that, although somebody here posted that was leftover from an abandoned story line of TIM developing a way to indoctrinate people. I don't know.  I do think it was added to the end to heighten the drama

 

Oh, and side note: Star Kid still makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Every one of his explanations for everything is whack - every single one. He's clearly a rogue AI gone wrong and just because he has a weird echoey voice and employs vague pseudo-philosophical non sequiturs does not make him any less nuts and power hungry. He's weird.

 

Destroy option is all you should be doing. Again. Can't say this enough. Shoot that cool-aid tube every single time.

 

Keelah'selai.

 

You lost me here.  I used to be a Destroy guy but after replaying and hearing those conversations with the crew and Garrus, I'm turning into a Control guy.  I'm convinced that a big part of ME is about learning to seeing the Geth as living beings.  In order for a Catalyst Choice to allow the Geth to survive,  the blue/control choice has to be the paragon choice.

 

I didn't see the Star Kid full of nonsense and non sequiturs.  Care to elaborate?

[dorktainian]

bang on dude.  

[voteDC]

But Vendetta, the prothean VI, blatantly says the Crucible was never completed in their cycle because some of their people became indoctrinated and thought they should use the Crucible to control the Reapers. He says that almost verbatim. That's why they lost.

Vendetta also detects Indoctrinated forces, in Kai Leng, but registers absolutely no influence over Shepard or the crew at any point

[dorktainian]

Vendetta also detects Indoctrinated forces, in Kai Leng, but registers absolutely no influence over Shepard or the crew at any point

but you forgot one thing, and yes it is there in the codex....

 

Rapid Indoctination.  You know, the type they would use when all else fails?

[themikefest]

I always choose destroy. I have no reason to choose the others

[Dantriges]

but you forgot one thing, and yes it is there in the codex....

 

Rapid Indoctination.  You know, the type they would use when all else fails?

 

When? In the Citadel? Vendetta saw you the last time on Chronos station. IIRC rapid indoctrination is the sledgehammer method where the reaper gets full control of a mindless servant. 

Weren´t the whispering voices and stuff limited to the time when TIM did his fistpumping? And wel the catalyst said that Control wouldn´t have worked with TIM as he was already controlled. Could be lying ofc, but Control wasn´t its preferred option anyways, associating it with TIM would have have helped steering Shep away from it. Ok, unless the player is a Cerberus puppet, but I dn´t think that the writers took the people into account who sipped Cerberus kool aid, when they made ME 3.

 

Some months since I was there the last time, I attributed any woozy stuff to Shepard bleeding on the floor.

[congokong]

...I've never heard anyone criticize the star-child before... The ME3 board feels like a broken record at times. But I choose destroy as well, yet I understand the catalyst.

 

A good question would be what actually makes someone indoctrinated? It's never made clear. How did TIM become indoctrinated? How didn't Shepard (or did they!)? Think of all the times Shepard was around reaper tech; especially in Arrival. You can always head-canon Shepard making any decision besides destroy as him/her being indoctrinated (sometime after conversing with the prothean AI's indoctrination detector), as I feel something would have to be messing with your head for you to suddenly change your plan to destroy the reapers throughout the whole series when you can finally enact it; then trusting the reapers' creator enough to jump into a laser, merge with a machine, or do nothing.

[AlanC9]

But Vendetta, the prothean VI, blatantly says the Crucible was never completed in their cycle because some of their people became indoctrinated and thought they should use the Crucible to control the Reapers. He says that almost verbatim. That's why they lost.
 
I'm not going to relist every IT shouting point, they're out there for people to read. But knowing all the discussion that has gone into this, and being aware of IT as a potential angle, it's next to impossible to think that Bioware didn't want the lingering suspicion of being controlled or tricked to be in the back of the player's mind. I think that is deliberately in the writing. 

Wait... are you saying you missed the blatantly obvious parallel to Cerberus there?

[von uber]

TIM being able to make Shep shoot Anderson makes no sense whatsoever. At all.

[AlanC9]

I agree with you up to a point.  I think the writers wanted us to think Shep was experiencing outside influences before The Choice.  The woozy focus and whispering voices point to that, although somebody here posted that was leftover from an abandoned story line of TIM developing a way to indoctrinate people. I don't know.  I do think it was added to the end to heighten the drama

Probably me. Here's the bit from the outline:
 

As they enter the control room they can see the controls for the Citadel Arms, but before they can reach them both Shepard and Anderson begin to feel the effects similiar to those Shepard felt at MIRANDA'S MISSION. Before they can realize what's happening, Anderson and Shepard find themselves with their guns drawn and aimed at one another.

TIM having this sort of mind-control technology doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense, but I'll take it over the dopey bossfight they had thought about earlier -- there's some concept art for that someplace.

[themikefest]

TIM being able to make Shep shoot Anderson makes no sense whatsoever. At all.

That scene was overkill. TIM already proved his point by being able to control Shepard and Anderson

[AzWarp]

No, I don't buy indoctrination theory, as I understand it to be spelled out (that Bioware wrote it as some dream sequence). 

 

But Vendetta, the prothean VI, blatantly says the Crucible was never completed in their cycle because some of their people became indoctrinated and thought they should use the Crucible to control the Reapers. He says that almost verbatim. That's why they lost.

 

I'm not going to relist every IT shouting point, they're out there for people to read. But knowing all the discussion that has gone into this, and being aware of IT as a potential angle, it's next to impossible to think that Bioware didn't want the lingering suspicion of being controlled or tricked to be in the back of the player's mind. I think that is deliberately in the writing. 

 

I'm not saying everything after the beam run didn't happen. I'm saying it's clear you're meant to question whether you can trust what you're seeing and hearing after that point, and I think that's where the confusion and disagreement comes in. 

 

Oh, and side note: Star Kid still makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Every one of his explanations for everything is whack - every single one. He's clearly a rogue AI gone wrong and just because he has a weird echoey voice and employs vague pseudo-philosophical non sequiturs does not make him any less nuts and power hungry. He's weird.

 

Destroy option is all you should be doing. Again. Can't say this enough. Shoot that cool-aid tube every single time.

 

Keelah'selai.

 

For those who are interested (and still don't know about it) there is an entire site dedicated to IT (http://www.masseffec...ctrination.com/) which is a very interesting read even if you don't buy IT.

 

The site even goes as far as scrubbing some of the game files and the code to support their point. I'm not saying that IT is a definite but I agree with sortiv... it is definitely a thing. Agree about the Prothean VI. Definitely agree that BioWare planned it this way and wrote it into the game. "Plenty of speculation from everyone"... as Mac Walters stated.

 

And for anyone who doesn't get what sortiv means by Star Kid not making any sense... please go and read about it. I have played all possible endings and the only one that does make sense is destroy.

 

Keelah'selai indeed!

[fraggle]

A good question would be what actually makes someone indoctrinated? It's never made clear. How did TIM become indoctrinated? How didn't Shepard (or did they!)? Think of all the times Shepard was around reaper tech; especially in Arrival. You can always head-canon Shepard making any decision besides destroy as him/her being indoctrinated (sometime after conversing with the prothean AI's indoctrination detector), as I feel something would have to be messing with your head for you to suddenly change your plan to destroy the reapers throughout the whole series when you can finally enact it; then trusting the reapers' creator enough to jump into a laser, merge with a machine, or do nothing.

 

That was actually a question I've asked myself a long time for now. From the comics it's clear TIM was always indoctrinated, yet it could be that it wasn't strong enough, up until a certain point. At this point the Reapers could manipulate him into thinking he still is doing what he does to help himself, but becomes a puppet along the way without noticing. Subtle indoctrination, the effective kind. I'm currently reading Retribution and there's some interesting stuff concerning how the Reapers work. Don't know if you read it, but basically, a human gets reaper tech inserted, which indoctrinate him very quickly, and the victim thus less effective (they must be careful not to tire out the host). They can manipulate him at first into thinking that that he's doing the opposite thing from what he's doing, he quickly develops biotic abilities, and he's aware the Reapers are inside him the whole time, prodding him for information, studying their surroundings (to send it back to Reapers in dark space), but he's unable to properly fight them. When they are weak from some action they made him do, they make him fall asleep so they can rest and he can't fight them. Find it pretty interesting to see how the Reapers work. Also that they study their surroundings so intently. No wonder they know so much

And well, TIM inserts himself some neat Reaper tech at the end, so that's it for him for sure, even though he was already indoctrinated before. Might also explain his abilities to control in the end? Some kind of biotic power? 

 

On IT topic, I never believed one second that the end was some kind of trick. And the EC slides show that we played a non-indoctrinated Shepard.

How Shepard did not become indoctrinated? Well Usual indoctrination from outside takes a bit of time, and Shepard was never all too long around a specific Reaper artifact or Reaper itself, I guess?

[introverted_assassin]

The only reason I never bought this is because Shepard has been around way too much Reaper tech and hadn't showed any of the signs of indoctrination. There should have been something else pointing us in that direction other than subtle hints.

Now in ME3, Shepard does have that sort of rachini experience with "dreams of oily shadows". I think it was said somewhere that the dreams were meant to point to Shepard's guilt...thus that kid appearing to be on fire because Shepard couldn't save him.

[corkyspetals]

Aaaaaahhhhh!!!!   Ok, I'm back on Destroy.  My brain hurts.

[Kabooooom]

Wait...I didnt realize there were people that DIDN'T think that Bioware wanted the player to question the validity of the Catalyst, especially because Vendetta straight up tells you that the Reapers have planted the idea of Control as an Indoctrination method in the past, and that they did so again with Cerberus in this cycle.

That's the super obvious basic background plot of Cerberus in ME3. Anyone who didnt pick that up just wasn't paying attention. They literally spell it out for you repeatedly.

That doesn't equal IT. But maybe that's where the confusion arose.

[jros83]

bang on dude.  

 

 

Hey it's my not-as-well dressed brother.

[sortiv]

OK, lots of good points from a lot of people. I'll try and add my thoughts in quickly. 

 

 

I agree with you up to a point.  I think the writers wanted us to think Shep was experiencing outside influences before The Choice.  The woozy focus and whispering voices point to that, although somebody here posted that was leftover from an abandoned story line of TIM developing a way to indoctrinate people. I don't know.  I do think it was added to the end to heighten the drama

 

 

You lost me here.  I used to be a Destroy guy but after replaying and hearing those conversations with the crew and Garrus, I'm turning into a Control guy.  I'm convinced that a big part of ME is about learning to seeing the Geth as living beings.  In order for a Catalyst Choice to allow the Geth to survive,  the blue/control choice has to be the paragon choice.

 

I didn't see the Star Kid full of nonsense and non sequiturs.  Care to elaborate?

 

I decided to be mildly humorous rather than writing a dissertation. I'm still going to try and be brief, but basically saying something like "if a fire burns is it at war?" does not equate to sufficient rationale to destroy known civilization across the galaxy. That is bonkers. That is, maybe, at best a B- in a freshman philosophy course, not the overwhelmingly logical reasoning of a supposedly unknowable infinitely intelligent AI. Reasonable adults shouldn't be swayed by that sort of shallow argument. The only response necessary to refute that sort of things is, "dude, you're not a fire." End of conversation. 

 

An artificial construct saying that the created will always try to surpass their creators, and therefore need to be stopped, while it attempts to surpass everyone by dictating the fate of the galaxy is an inherent contradiction. 

 

Star Kid attempts to side step that contradict with another idiot-savant one liner of "I'm just an AI, the same way you're just an animal" to which any sensible person would reply, "yup, I am just an animal - glad we agree, now you're still full of shenanigans and you're a crazy AI who wants to do everything you're saying you're trying to stop."

 

Vendetta also detects Indoctrinated forces, in Kai Leng, but registers absolutely no influence over Shepard or the crew at any point

 

This is a big point. A lot of astute folks have brought up something or another about indoctrination, what it means, what counts as indoctrination, whether or when Shepard was potentially indoctrinated, etc. 

 

To elaborate, I don't think Shepard was indoctrinated per se. I think what happened is that the "rapid indoctrination" or the super indoctrination (my term) failed to work when TIM was controlling Shepard. Shepard basically broke the strongest indoctrination attempt possible, likely because he's basically half prothean half human (due to the cipher). The only other person to have beacon contact and the cipher was Saren, and ultimately he does break indoctrination long enough to shoot himself (which if you read Retribution and see what happens to Grayson, you know this should be almost impossible). The half prothean half human wrinkle maybe makes it hard for Reapers to figure out indoctrination perfectly because the brain is operating differently at that point. 

 

Anyway, having broken the strongest form of indoctrination, the Catalyst realizes it has to essentially trick Shepard, since it can't dominate him. 

 

Wait... are you saying you missed the blatantly obvious parallel to Cerberus there?

 

Nope, my post was just getting long, and I'm a sucker for brevity. It's the writer in me. So I thought I'd skip the obvious, "Cerberus and TIM prove control option is... etc, etc". But as another person said, the Cebrerus/TIM/Control angle was clearly right there. It's part of what I'm saying in that you're clearly meant to have doubts, but somehow people took that into this whole dream sequence, "BW intentionally told us a false story to be clever", which I think takes it too far. 

 

Also: (mostly) all of you are really smart people, and I like this forum a lot. 

[Xilizhra]

An artificial construct saying that the created will always try to surpass their creators, and therefore need to be stopped, while it attempts to surpass everyone by dictating the fate of the galaxy is an inherent contradiction.

Why? If anything, that just confirms it.

 

I also don't think that you were intended to have doubts, per se, given that the general tone of the interactions with the Catalyst doesn't seem to allow for major ones.

[Dantriges]

Wait...I didnt realize there were people that DIDN'T think that Bioware wanted the player to question the validity of the Catalyst, especially because Vendetta straight up tells you that the Reapers have planted the idea of Control as an Indoctrination method in the past, and that they did so again with Cerberus in this cycle.

 

Well, maybe that was the intention but you can´t do much about it, besides picking one of three the Catalyst gave you or open the all you can eat for the Reapers with a grand speech.

[AzWarp]

The only reason I never bought this is because Shepard has been around way too much Reaper tech and hadn't showed any of the signs of indoctrination. There should have been something else pointing us in that direction other than subtle hints.

Now in ME3, Shepard does have that sort of rachini experience with "dreams of oily shadows". I think it was said somewhere that the dreams were meant to point to Shepard's guilt...thus that kid appearing to be on fire because Shepard couldn't save him.

 

Sorry... he does in ME2 in the Arrival DLC. 

[sortiv]

Why? If anything, that just confirms it.

 

I also don't think that you were intended to have doubts, per se, given that the general tone of the interactions with the Catalyst doesn't seem to allow for major ones.

 

It's a contradiction because the Catalyst asserts itself as being outside of that cycle, and refers to the very thing he's supposedly trying to avoid as the "solution" to it. I should have been more clear about that. It is a confirmation in a way, but what's contradictory about it is the Catalyst's notion that it's mitigating this phenomenon while instigating it. 

[AzWarp]

Why? If anything, that just confirms it.

 

I also don't think that you were intended to have doubts, per se, given that the general tone of the interactions with the Catalyst doesn't seem to allow for major ones.

 

You are indoctrinated... 

You were absolutely intended to have doubts!

[AlanC9]

I decided to be mildly humorous rather than writing a dissertation. I'm still going to try and be brief, but basically saying something like "if a fire burns is it at war?" does not equate to sufficient rationale to destroy known civilization across the galaxy. That is bonkers.That is, maybe, at best a B- in a freshman philosophy course, not the overwhelmingly logical reasoning of a supposedly unknowable infinitely intelligent AI. Reasonable adults shouldn't be swayed by that sort of shallow argument. The only response necessary to refute that sort of things is, "dude, you're not a fire." End of conversation. 

Hold it. That bit about fire had nothing to do with a rationale for the Reapers' activities. The Catalyst's telling Shepard that "war" isn't the way the Reapers think about their activities. That response would completely miss the point. No, they're not fire. They're Reapers, and they're doing what they were created to do.

 

Star Kid attempts to side step that contradict with another idiot-savant one liner of "I'm just an AI, the same way you're just an animal" to which any sensible person would reply, "yup, I am just an animal - glad we agree, now you're still full of shenanigans and you're a crazy AI who wants to do everything you're saying you're trying to stop."

Sure, if Shepard felt that would be worth saying. Although since it is a crazy AI, it would be crazy to expect the argument to get anywhere. It should have been in there for RP, though.

Anyway, having broken the strongest form of indoctrination, the Catalyst realizes it has to essentially trick Shepard, since it can't dominate him. 

Trick how, exactly? By telling him the truth?