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So whats the consensus for Da:I after all? Do you love this game? Update: Finished trespasser OMG


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#551
In Exile

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I don't have a high opinion of Dragon Age ]['s story. I certainly don't think it's good just because it was different from what Bioware usually does, as so many like to do. There's a clear lack of connection between all 3 narrative acts, each being it's own story with only certain sidequests providing any continuity. And of course the unnecessary forced allegiance in the ending, where you can't just fight to leave the city instead of siding with mages or Templars (whose leaders both turn on you regardless). 

 

But I do agree with act 2 being the highlight of the plot, the thing that justified all the pre-release hype and developer commentary. If the whole game was just a longer version of act 2 I may have been able to overlook ]['s over flaws and issues and say it was a good game, but that's not what happened.

 

Act 2 clearly happened a bit by accident when you look back at DA2. What I mean is all the plot points that really count happen in Act I and III. Act II was kind of the placeholder - something Bioware needed to happen to get Hawke to the point of Champion. I think that kind of freedom - especially from the fantasy plot, and especially from the need to set up Inquisition (since that's totally all Act I and III do, like playing through the boring part of a prologue) - worked very well with the type of setting they created in Kirkwall.

 

Plots need resolution, and Act I has no resolution really, trying too hard to set up too many plots ,and Act III punts too many issues and is barely halfway done. 


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#552
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I don't have a high opinion of Dragon Age ]['s story. I certainly don't think it's good just because it was different from what Bioware usually does, as so many like to do. There's a clear lack of connection between all 3 narrative acts, each being it's own story with only certain sidequests providing any continuity. And of course the unnecessary forced allegiance in the ending, where you can't just fight to leave the city instead of siding with mages or Templars (whose leaders both turn on you regardless). 

 

But I do agree with act 2 being the highlight of the plot, the thing that justified all the pre-release hype and developer commentary. If the whole game was just a longer version of act 2 I may have been able to overlook ]['s over flaws and issues and say it was a good game, but that's not what happened.

 

I think there's a difference between "lack of connection" and "different plot points in a large story."

 

Samuel deposited a check at the bank and then went to the grocery store.

 

The going to the grocery doesn't really relate to the depositing of the check but the sentence is legitimate and describes some things Samuel did. I don't think it's any less effective.

 

There was a Qunari invasion and also mage-templar conflict. I think they covered both thoroughly, and enjoyably, together.


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#553
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The viscount dying from the qunari invasion left the power vacuum necessary for Meredith to take control.

 

Sounds like a good plot to me


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#554
Neverwinter_Knight77

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The plot of DA:I feels like self-contained missions instead of an overall main plot.  I know that might sound like a strange criticism, considering the classic "Bioware formula", but it's more noticeable here than ever before.  These segments somehow feel rushed to me, despite the whole game taking longer to complete than other games.  You go in, do your little mission and move on to the next area.


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#555
TheKomandorShepard

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There was a Qunari invasion and also mage-templar conflict. I think they covered both thoroughly, and enjoyably, together.

 

Not rly , aside from idiocies of plot i have mentioned pretty much almost every mage was nuts and actions a lot of mages/templars didn't made sense , Meredith despite having a excellent reason to annul circle went with insane "because anders blow up chantry" and then Orsino pointless turning into hasrvester on mage side despite Hawke defeated Templars even when Orsino attacked Hawke. Pretty much Hawke may have very little reason to join either side considering both leaders are nuts.

 

While Qunari conflict as i said before consisted on protagonist being stupid in order to fail and conflict could have been easily resolved by Hawke if Hawke used his brain. 



#556
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Not rly , aside from idiocies of plot i have mentioned pretty much almost every mage was nuts and actions a lot of mages/templars didn't made sense , Meredith despite having a excellent reason to annul circle went with insane "because anders blow up chantry" and then Orsino pointless turning into hasrvester on mage side despite Hawke defeated Templars even when Orsino attacked Hawke. Pretty much Hawke may have very little reason to join either side considering both leaders are nuts.

While Qunari conflict as i said before consisted on protagonist being stupid in order to fail and conflict could have been easily resolved by Hawke if Hawke used his brain.


Are you just conditioned to only understand animes? Is that why you don't understand the story and dynamics? I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just a possibility.
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#557
TheKomandorShepard

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Are you just conditioned to only understand animes? Is that why you don't understand the story and dynamics? I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just a possibility.

Looking on my avatar and judging on it's basis as your only mean of "repelling" what i have said isn't best argument , just saying . :whistle:

 

If by don't understanding the story and dynamics you mean not ignoring its stupidity and flaws then yes i don't understand.



#558
tesla21

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Not every zone on a game need to be irrelevant to the main story. The exalted plains is like a sidequest zone, base on what u discover on the winter palace (true u can go there early. But i my quest when i go to the war table and i hear there is a undeath army marching trow it i will go investigate bc the last Undeath i fight on cresswood were related to a rift, and as the Inquisitor ur job isnt just stop Cory, is to bring order to the world, they tell u that like 100 times till u become Inquisitor.

 

So yeah the exalted plain isnt really relevant for the story, it work as a side quest zone, that u can or cant do. That is why i dont get why ppl rage about it.

 

Yeah but compare the quality of the side quests compared to previous games, non-cinematic, completely straight forward side quests ala MMO, they even auto complete most of the time so you don't even get to tell your quest giver that the problem is solved, even when it would have made complete sense to do so.

 

I am not asking for main-quest quality or anything, but details like: solution A: Save the victim B: Kill the victim as a favor to an influential person C: Bring it to skyhold for processing. This is just a superficial example of course, but anyway the point of this is to give the feeling to the player that they actually are doing something, interacting with the world, not just getting +5 arbitrary points to your paper-only power/influence. It also helps give your character a more defined personality. In Inquisition were you evil/ruthless? a complete saint? Realistic/pragmatic? It was really hard to get into a particular role because it requires to head canon like 90%  of your motives since every playthrough is virtually the same as far as action-consequences go. I can see how making branching main quests is not the best idea since it might end up having to skip the issue on later games like the Rachni Queen or Council save/let die of ME1 so giving us back the freedom of choice on more minor issues in sidequests would go a long way to make your character and the non-plot essential areas feel alive.


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#559
In Exile

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The plot of DA:I feels like self-contained missions instead of an overall main plot.  I know that might sound like a strange criticism, considering the classic "Bioware formula", but it's more noticeable here than ever before.  These segments somehow feel rushed to me, despite the whole game taking longer to complete than other games.  You go in, do your little mission and move on to the next area.

 

In terms of execution, yeah, but DA:I and DA2 are both superior to DA:O in narrative structure in that they have actual arcs, versus a brief Act I, a comically and pointlessly long Act II, and a very short Act III. 



#560
tesla21

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And I know what you mean by your choice not having Impact but I think it does.

Hawke goes down as a mage rebel, or Templar defender. Varric's and Cassandra's retrospective storytelling consolidates that. Anders lives or dies. Companions fall out with you or don't. Doesn't change the larger world, though. The hero of the rpg makes decisions that influence a MANAGEABLE sphere of the world. Not the entire world. Too much power makes it ...less immersive. To be immersed, you need some forces larger than yourself which are too big to change.

 

I agree so much with this, if there is something to learn from ME is that trying to give the player much power over the universe while also trying to maintain the illusion of choice ends up badly. You can only branch so much in a game that will have a sequel, the developers cannot make +2 entire different games to properly adress each choice which ends up in devaluing the choices themselves.

 

That only leaves us left with the original premise, you control *your* character. You decide if your actions are that of a noble, goodie two-shoes or a power hungry, looking for himself jerk. You either betray your friends or stand with them together with the end. Perhaps your hero sacrifices one of his companions for what he thought was a worthy cause, you are either the guy who tricks and kills for the goal or tries to save everyone (and obviously shades of grey in between all of these). At the end of the journey, you stopped the blight/corypheus/whatever and that's what the history books will remember, yet the experience can change so drastically depending on your character's motives and the way it interacts with the world. Going again with DA2, Hawke was flawed and wasn't able to solve everything (if anything), you as the player to some extent choose who he was and how he played with the hand that he was given,

 

That kind of control has way more weight as far story telling goes. I'd much rather have that than a perfect mc choosing to end the game with plot device A or plot device B while giving the choices fake importance that will be vaguely mentioned in later instances. DA2 isn't bad because the characters were flawed and the journey is destined to end in failure. I am pretty certain most of the dislike of the game comes from reused enviroments, streamlined gameplay and rushed ending.


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#561
tesla21

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Looking on my avatar and judging on it's basis as your only mean of "repelling" what i have said isn't best argument , just saying . :whistle:

 

If by don't understanding the story and dynamics you mean not ignoring its stupidity and flaws then yes i don't understand.

 

I think the point of that is your double standard...

 

I am certain I could pick apart nearly absolutely any game/show you think it's great and point out a handfull of illogical events and flaws with the story and just claim that's enough proof that the story is terrible, even worse that it's a naruto avatar when complaining about story flaws. Like I said I like the show but I could literally write paragraphs full of flaws and inconsistencies of the show... I don't have to pretend in my head that everything I like is perfect to be able enjoy them or consider it good.

 

There's always conflict, even more prevalent so in movie/shows media. You are equally displeased with a story containing non-perfect defined personality characters as you are with the dull blank and perfect inquisitor, it also makes me wonder what your opinion of ME series, DAO and Naruto are considering all your complaints can be perfectly translated into those as well. Maybe you could try playing a pen and paper rpg because I doubt any developer out there will manage to nail your masterful storytelling.


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#562
TheKomandorShepard

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"Hawke is stupid" is as shallow criticism as I've heard and it surprises me he doesn't adore the Inquisitor considering he is the epitome doing everything right and effortlesly beating the opposition... if that's what good story telling is about. It's like saying a drama is bad because it has drama... it's like hey maybe someone just doesn't like the drama genre? 

 

It isn't shallow criticism , it is truth Da 2 story is badly written and whole "failure hero" theme poorly executed , instead creating situations that were actually outside Hawke control and s/he couldn't do anything about them they have created events that could have been easily prevented if Hawke just used his brain instead being dumb muscle , so we have drama for sake of drama. Witcher is good example how create personal story where things not always go as you want without enforced stupidity to create drama.

 

 

I think the point of that is your double standard...

 

I am certain I could pick apart nearly absolutely any game/show you think it's great and point out a handfull of illogical events and flaws with the story and just claim that's enough proof that the story is terrible, even worse that it's a naruto avatar when complaining about story flaws. Like I said I like the show but I could literally write paragraphs full of flaws and inconsistencies of the show... I don't have to pretend in my head that everything I like is perfect to be able enjoy them or consider it good.

 

It isn't duble standard , as in first place pretty much almost every story have it stupid moments what matters how many and how severe in Da 2 there is a lot of such moments and they are so obvious it hurts.

 

I love how you and other people here trying to attack my avatar what is pretty much one of most desperate moves on the internet showing you have no legitimate arguments so you are forced to attack user on completely irrelevant to discussions basis. First of all how do you know that i watch Naruto solely on avatar basis , second how do you know how i would rate or what i think about Naruto solely on avatar basis pretty much i could just find picture on the internet and like it and use it as my awatar, or just like character and plenty other things.
 



#563
ioannisdenton

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*waves* Hi.  Make that two. 

Make us 3


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#564
ioannisdenton

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This is a thread for DaI not Da2.
Stay on topic Please.
On a funny note as much as i loved witcher i wanna replay DaI more somehow (although i think W3 is a better game)



#565
Mr Fixit

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So.. I'm not truly alone? Is there another DA2 fan out there? ;__;

 

You know what's interesting? For all the **** I'm giving DA2 and DAI, i actually like those games quite a bit! You're not alone, don't you worry. :wizard:


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#566
Vilegrim

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out it this way:  I reinstalled DA:I a few days ago, to see if I really disliked it as much as I thought I did, I played for maybe 10 minutes and realized: I didn't care, not about the world, not about the characters and not about the story, I had gone from dislike of DA:I as a game, to apathy about everything to do with it.  It seems DA:I killed Thedas for me, the same way ME3 killed ME1 and 2, knowing that DA:I is part of the world removes my desire to play games in that world. 


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#567
robertthebard

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Looking on my avatar and judging on it's basis as your only mean of "repelling" what i have said isn't best argument , just saying . :whistle:

 

If by don't understanding the story and dynamics you mean not ignoring its stupidity and flaws then yes i don't understand.

There's an inherent flaw in your logic, and you presented it in this post:

Not rly , aside from idiocies of plot i have mentioned pretty much almost every mage was nuts and actions a lot of mages/templars didn't made sense , Meredith despite having a excellent reason to annul circle went with insane "because anders blow up chantry" and then Orsino pointless turning into hasrvester on mage side despite Hawke defeated Templars even when Orsino attacked Hawke. Pretty much Hawke may have very little reason to join either side considering both leaders are nuts.

 

While Qunari conflict as i said before consisted on protagonist being stupid in order to fail and conflict could have been easily resolved by Hawke if Hawke used his brain. 

 

Orsino didn't turn on Hawke until after, and Meredith, although well on the way, didn't go full tilt crazy until after the conflict.  At the point in the narrative where the choice is made, Hawke can potentially have a sibling on either side.  If Hawke is a mage, Carver can be a Templar, otherwise, Bethany can be in the Circle.  This would be a motivation to join either side.

 

Tell me though, how many posts do you have running down Origin's story for the same mechanic?  You have no choice, you either take the  mages or the Templars, but you have to choose one or the other.  You don't have a choice, you have to crown a king in Orzammar, and you have to deal with the werewolves.  There is no option, in any of these, to tell them to deal with it and send a messenger, which should have been in there, right?  There's no option to tell the Landsmeet to get their **** together and gather the troops to fight the Blight.  There's no option to wish Eamon's knights good luck, and to send a messenger when they get things sorted out.  Where was my CE's option to let everything but the alienage burn?

 

You see, those choices mirror the choices Hawke had to make.  In DA 2, they're idiocy, but in Origins they're what?  A stroke of genius?  Here's the issue with my list of choices:  All of them could wind up being a "Game Over" scenario if you don't deal with them, and frankly, choosing to walk away from Kirkwall at that time is the same thing, Game Over.  All of the examples in the above paragraph could result in that scenario, but, even if you had to play out to Denerim, it's going to be game over, because your squad isn't enough to overcome the army that's waiting at the gate.  It's the end of Ferelden as we know it, although the Orlesian Wardens will likely prevail, after the fact, so it's not the end of Thedas.  This is the reason that narratives push you forward, and force you into choices, to extend the game.  The real shocker is that this is why that co-ed goes into the basement in horror movies too.  She had a choice to walk away, but then they might as well roll the end credits.  This tactic also applies to every work of fiction ever made, where there's a chance for the protagonist to walk away, but they don't.

 

When one sets out to critique writing, one should understand how writing works, and why.  One should be able to grasp subtext and what it means for the narrative in general.  When one doesn't understand these things, the critique comes out "It was idiocy", which is shorthand for "I don't understand the story, therefore the story is stupid".


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#568
Vilegrim

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There's an inherent flaw in your logic, and you presented it in this post:

 

Orsino didn't turn on Hawke until after, and Meredith, although well on the way, didn't go full tilt crazy until after the conflict.  At the point in the narrative where the choice is made, Hawke can potentially have a sibling on either side.  If Hawke is a mage, Carver can be a Templar, otherwise, Bethany can be in the Circle.  This would be a motivation to join either side.

 

Tell me though, how many posts do you have running down Origin's story for the same mechanic?  You have no choice, you either take the  mages or the Templars, but you have to choose one or the other.  You don't have a choice, you have to crown a king in Orzammar, and you have to deal with the werewolves.  There is no option, in any of these, to tell them to deal with it and send a messenger, which should have been in there, right?  There's no option to tell the Landsmeet to get their **** together and gather the troops to fight the Blight.  There's no option to wish Eamon's knights good luck, and to send a messenger when they get things sorted out.  Where was my CE's option to let everything but the alienage burn?

 

You see, those choices mirror the choices Hawke had to make.  In DA 2, they're idiocy, but in Origins they're what?  A stroke of genius?  Here's the issue with my list of choices:  All of them could wind up being a "Game Over" scenario if you don't deal with them, and frankly, choosing to walk away from Kirkwall at that time is the same thing, Game Over.  All of the examples in the above paragraph could result in that scenario, but, even if you had to play out to Denerim, it's going to be game over, because your squad isn't enough to overcome the army that's waiting at the gate.  It's the end of Ferelden as we know it, although the Orlesian Wardens will likely prevail, after the fact, so it's not the end of Thedas.  This is the reason that narratives push you forward, and force you into choices, to extend the game.  The real shocker is that this is why that co-ed goes into the basement in horror movies too.  She had a choice to walk away, but then they might as well roll the end credits.  This tactic also applies to every work of fiction ever made, where there's a chance for the protagonist to walk away, but they don't.

 

When one sets out to critique writing, one should understand how writing works, and why.  One should be able to grasp subtext and what it means for the narrative in general.  When one doesn't understand these things, the critique comes out "It was idiocy", which is shorthand for "I don't understand the story, therefore the story is stupid".

 

 

In Origins they made sense: You help a candidate become king because you need a stable Orzimar to send troops, you need the tower of mages to be not a demon infested hell scape to send troops, you need the werewolves or the elves (and can chose which) to send troops.   You have 4 factions you need to get on side, and you do what it takes to do it.

 

Hawke has to for no apparent reason agree to help an obviously evil as hell chantry sister who accosted him at random and made threats...erm why?  You don't need the money, and could set her on fire and go about your day fairly easily.  And it gets worse from their, the 'but thou musts' build up and build up, with no real reason for actually doing it apparent, apart from Hawke being an idiot, if the motivation is 'the protagonist is an idiot' you have a major problem in a non-comic story. 


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#569
TheKomandorShepard

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There's an inherent flaw in your logic, and you presented it in this post:

 

Orsino didn't turn on Hawke until after, and Meredith, although well on the way, didn't go full tilt crazy until after the conflict.  At the point in the narrative where the choice is made, Hawke can potentially have a sibling on either side.  If Hawke is a mage, Carver can be a Templar, otherwise, Bethany can be in the Circle.  This would be a motivation to join either side.

 

Tell me though, how many posts do you have running down Origin's story for the same mechanic?  You have no choice, you either take the  mages or the Templars, but you have to choose one or the other.  You don't have a choice, you have to crown a king in Orzammar, and you have to deal with the werewolves.  There is no option, in any of these, to tell them to deal with it and send a messenger, which should have been in there, right?  There's no option to tell the Landsmeet to get their **** together and gather the troops to fight the Blight.  There's no option to wish Eamon's knights good luck, and to send a messenger when they get things sorted out.  Where was my CE's option to let everything but the alienage burn?

 

You see, those choices mirror the choices Hawke had to make.  In DA 2, they're idiocy, but in Origins they're what?  A stroke of genius?  Here's the issue with my list of choices:  All of them could wind up being a "Game Over" scenario if you don't deal with them, and frankly, choosing to walk away from Kirkwall at that time is the same thing, Game Over.  All of the examples in the above paragraph could result in that scenario, but, even if you had to play out to Denerim, it's going to be game over, because your squad isn't enough to overcome the army that's waiting at the gate.  It's the end of Ferelden as we know it, although the Orlesian Wardens will likely prevail, after the fact, so it's not the end of Thedas.  This is the reason that narratives push you forward, and force you into choices, to extend the game.  The real shocker is that this is why that co-ed goes into the basement in horror movies too.  She had a choice to walk away, but then they might as well roll the end credits.  This tactic also applies to every work of fiction ever made, where there's a chance for the protagonist to walk away, but they don't.

 

When one sets out to critique writing, one should understand how writing works, and why.  One should be able to grasp subtext and what it means for the narrative in general.  When one doesn't understand these things, the critique comes out "It was idiocy", which is shorthand for "I don't understand the story, therefore the story is stupid".

 

There is no flaw in my logic it is only that you are twisting what i have said.

 

 

First of all Mages in circle were proven to be corrupted many times in over story and that was before and Meredith motives were completely stupid , so pretty much no good reason to side with one of them.Second i pretty sure i said may not have reason to involve himself in conflict (what of course you ignored) so trying to sell sibling or other optional motivator as motivation is pointless because as i said it is optional.

 

Now you operate on logical fallacy "but origins did it too" , except in origins it was justified and even necessary to side with X because main goal of the game is to gain allies in order to stop blight and siding with someone means obtaining ally. When Hawke has no reason (outside optional sources) to side with mages or templars.

 

No , leaving Kirkwall wouldn't be game over it would be another ending (in fact game even ends with you leaving Kirkwall one way or another) ,so no. We don't know if Orlaisan wardens would succeed in stopping and stopping blight was protagonist goal since beginning of the game (not counting origin).

 

So pretty much you should understand that what your doing is desperate attempt to protect Da 2 stupid and nonsense story applying logical fallacies.



#570
Dabrikishaw

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In Origins they made sense: You help a candidate become king because you need a stable Orzimar to send troops, you need the tower of mages to be not a demon infested hell scape to send troops, you need the werewolves or the elves (and can chose which) to send troops.   You have 4 factions you need to get on side, and you do what it takes to do it.

 

Hawke has to for no apparent reason agree to help an obviously evil as hell chantry sister who accosted him at random and made threats...erm why?  You don't need the money, and could set her on fire and go about your day fairly easily.  And it gets worse from their, the 'but thou musts' build up and build up, with no real reason for actually doing it apparent, apart from Hawke being an idiot, if the motivation is 'the protagonist is an idiot' you have a major problem in a non-comic story. 

Act 1 had this weird issue of being almost nothing but sidequests disguised as main quests, so players are forced to complete them all even if by then you've accumulated enough sovereigns to start the Deep Roads Expedition (you know, the actual main quest).  You have to meet Petrice, you have to meet  Ser Thrask, you have to meet Grace, you have to meet Feynriel, and it just goes on. I should be able to start the expedition once I have 50 sovereigns only, not once I complete a bunch of arbitrarily forced quests. 



#571
robertthebard

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There is no flaw in my logic it is only that you are twisting what i have said.

 

 

First of all Mages in circle were proven to be corrupted many times in over story and that was before and Meredith motives were completely stupid , so pretty much no good reason to side with one of them.Second i pretty sure i said may not have reason to involve himself in conflict (what of course you ignored) so trying to sell sibling or other optional motivator as motivation is pointless because as i said it is optional.

 

Now you operate on logical fallacy "but origins did it too" , except in origins it was justified and even necessary to side with X because main goal of the game is to gain allies in order to stop blight and siding with someone means obtaining ally. When Hawke has no reason (outside optional sources) to side with mages or templars.

 

No , leaving Kirkwall wouldn't be game over it would be another ending (in fact game even ends with you leaving Kirkwall one way or another) ,so no. We don't know if Orlaisan wardens would succeed in stopping and stopping blight was protagonist goal since beginning of the game (not counting origin).

 

So pretty much you should understand that what your doing is desperate attempt to protect Da 2 stupid and nonsense story applying logical fallacies.

So I'm curious, how is another ending not game over?  Doesn't the fact that you're calling it an ending mean that the game is over, thus Game Over?  This is the problem with your critique, in my eyes, you don't understand this basic concept of "ending means game over", and yet you continue to run down the story, which is more complex than "end means game over".  You see, I'm not twisting anything, I'm just applying logic to what you say.  That it comes out messed up isn't my fault, I can't fix what you said, I can only apply the logic to it.  That it's messed up isn't my fault, but yours.

 

 

In Origins they made sense: You help a candidate become king because you need a stable Orzimar to send troops, you need the tower of mages to be not a demon infested hell scape to send troops, you need the werewolves or the elves (and can chose which) to send troops.   You have 4 factions you need to get on side, and you do what it takes to do it.

 

Hawke has to for no apparent reason agree to help an obviously evil as hell chantry sister who accosted him at random and made threats...erm why?  You don't need the money, and could set her on fire and go about your day fairly easily.  And it gets worse from their, the 'but thou musts' build up and build up, with no real reason for actually doing it apparent, apart from Hawke being an idiot, if the motivation is 'the protagonist is an idiot' you have a major problem in a non-comic story. 

As you can see by reading the post you quoted, I already covered all of this.  I explained exactly why the choices weren't offered, and what the presumed result would have been if they had been offered.

 

I also touched on most of this, however, regarding the Chantry Sister, it's needed to push the plot forward.  But let's look at Hawke, while we're at it, but let's look at a line from Inquisition, where, after introductions, you ask for help, and Hawke says something to the effect of "Are you sure you want my help, my advice nearly destroyed Kirkwall".  This is another example of missing the subtext:  Hawke wasn't cut out to be a "save the world" hero.  Hawke was always in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time.  That's all it was, and all it will ever be.


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#572
CronoDragoon

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Challenge accepted. I'll start also include immersion, PC and antagonists since they're all connected.


Thanks! Here are my counterpoints:

Your first point is that Origins clearly demonstrates why the Blight has to be stopped. This is true, though it's also true in Inquisition. In Hushed Whispers and Champions of the Just both demonstrate why Corypheus has to be stopped, and they do so by cleverly implementing the "show don't tell" guideline. It's bleak to see your companions fallen, corrupted by red lyrium or, in Leliana's case, the Blight. I'm also a fan of the game over screen text during those missions which outline the direct consequences of your failure. The key here is that you actually experience how crappy the world would be if Corypheus wins. It outlines both the totality of his victory and the stakes quite clearly, and it was a good choice to personalize your failure by centering the horror of a Corypheus failure on the bodies of your companions (this is also why it's false to say Inquisition keeps the darkness at a distance, but more on that later). Meanwhile, in Origins, you never see what happens to Lothering and it takes a DLC to see the effects of Ostagar. The most effective section of the game is the Deep Roads with the Broodmother for this reason: it's not just that the Blight is a threat, but that you are actually shown the specifics of the apocalypse and what will happen. Inquisition works similarly.

Speaking of showing the effects, it's simply not true that Inquisition doesn't show dark stuff or the consequences of war. What exactly am I missing about burning villages, slaughtered civilians, mass pits of dead that have risen to become undead, abominations taking over mansions and refugees, rogue bands of templars and mages killing and plundering, deserters from Orlesian armies doing the same in places like Emerald Graves, Red Templars kidnapping people and implanting red lyrium inside them to the point that one begs you to kill her? What, because it wasn't a cutscene? What about couples trying to flee bandits and being killed, a mother trying to protect her child by throwing herself on top of it before a sword through the chest kills them both? Because it's environmental storytelling, it doesn't exist? What about Cassandra's Seeker plotline and meeting the Seeker who had a demon planted inside him, asking Cassandra to kill him to stop the pain? I'm even going to specifically call out that you say we don't see the Warden sacrifices when we blatantly do in two different instances: at the Western Approach and Adamantine Fortress.

You say that it's a weakness that the Mage/Templar war is resolved early and the Breach closed. That stretch is one of my favorite parts of the game. Properly evaluating the mage and templar situation is something it would have taken the Inquisitor the entire game to get up to speed on, and even then it would have felt a bit strange. The entire game's purpose is explicitly stated as being closing the Breach and stopping those responsible. Why exactly isn't this the primary reason for choosing a side in the war? And indeed, Inquisition recognizes this. When discussing who should be approached, your advisors broach more topics than simply "who is right" (as if that's likely to be a useful discussion for the Inquisition at that point and time). Instead, more practical topics are discussed. Who does the Inquisition have the influence to approach? Are the mages dealing with Tevinter and should we intervene there? What's going on with the Lord Commander Templar? Perhaps most importantly, who would be able to assist more efficiently in closing the Breach, you know, that end of the world thing going on in the sky up there? Inquisition's greatest strength in who you pick is that it remains silent, allowing you to decide your own reasons for your actions. This is smart because motives will be complicated in what is a naturally complicated situation. Just see what a mess Mass Effect 2's Collector Base decision is when it comes to actually implementing motives for action in dialogue. Beyond that, it was a good decision to close the Breach early and then get destroyed at Haven, because it actually feels like the plot is moving. This is opposed to Origins, where the main plot sits and waits for the Landsmeet to happen. It's true that Inquisition doesn't really live up to that after Haven (Cory just sits and takes your victories with the Wardens and Orlais), but this is something that Trespasser fixes.

Speaking of Trespasser, we aren't just comparing Loghain and the Archdemon to Corypheus. We're comparing them to Corypheus and Solas. I could write more here about how Solas is the best BioWare villain since Sun Li, but I'm willing to just call this a wash.

Now, as for reasons why I feel Inquisition is clearly superior:

The game is actually about something. No, I'm not talking about "the plot" or "what happens", I mean thematically, something that imbues the events of the game with meaning outside of themselves. Mainly, I'm talking here about the focus on the character of a Chosen One and a complicated, nuanced discussion of organized religion. Simply put, Inquisition has the most mature and intelligent discussion of the role and importance (or lack thereof, if you choose to RP that) of organized religion that we've seen in a game. It doesn't posit Church leaders as either villains or saints like damn near every game out there (even well-written games such as Final Fantasy Tactics fall victim to this). It doesn't comment on whether religion is good or bad except insofar as it comments that both of those things can be true. Cassandra is the best portrayal of a religious person that you could hope for, someone who doesn't feel like a strawmen, but a reasonable person willing to see both sides but choosing to believe in faith. And I say this, by the way, as someone who doesn't have an ounce of spirituality in them. I can simply recognize and appreciate good writing when I see it. Similarly, the Inquisitor-as-Chosen-One is well handled. It actually kind of amazes me when I see people say that Inquisition sports the traditional Chosen One archetype. I'd say that perhaps BioWare was for once too subtle in its writing, except it wasn't really subtle at all in Here Lies The Abyss when they revealed that you were merely an accident, exactly like the villain says. Characters often tell you that whatever you belief doesn't really matter. The Chosen One as a religious reality is a separate question from the Chosen One as a political or social reality. As Varys says, power resides where men believe it resides, and the Inquisition is set to use that perception.

What this means is that quite a few characters in the game are actually manipulating either you or the Inquisition's followers. It's telling that after the Dawn Will Come you can go to Giselle and question her about some of these things. That scene, to me, isn't actually sappy at all, because it's Giselle making a calculated manuever to more or less brainwash the Inquisition's followers into believing you are Divine. Later, when it's revealed you aren't, you are given several RP opportunities to respond to this. Beyond your conversations with your companions and advisors, the best one is when Josephine asks what you should tell Orlais about the events of Here Lies. Do you want to lie? Tell the truth? Neither? Why? The game is riddled with these complicated questions about the central tenet of you-as-Inquisitor. What do you believe about your role? About religion? About the Chantry specifically? About the war? Does it even matter? You lament the loss of possibilities to be evil, but I celebrate finally having several viable roles to play within a given type of morality. An attempt at breadth is going to result in a loss of depth, and the Inquisitor, thanks to the focus of the dialogues in the main story, is given the opportunity to be more specific about specific topics than any previous BioWare protagonist, with the possible exception of the Bhaalspawn.
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#573
vbibbi

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Thanks! Here are my counterpoints:

Your first point is that Origins clearly demonstrates why the Blight has to be stopped. This is true, though it's also true in Inquisition. In Hushed Whispers and Champions of the Just both demonstrate why Corypheus has to be stopped, and they do so by cleverly implementing the "show don't tell" guideline. It's bleak to see your companions fallen, corrupted by red lyrium or, in Leliana's case, the Blight. I'm also a fan of the game over screen text during those missions which outline the direct consequences of your failure. The key here is that you actually experience how crappy the world would be if Corypheus wins. It outlines both the totality of his victory and the stakes quite clearly, and it was a good choice to personalize your failure by centering the horror of a Corypheus failure on the bodies of your companions (this is also why it's false to say Inquisition keeps the darkness at a distance, but more on that later). Meanwhile, in Origins, you never see what happens to Lothering and it takes a DLC to see the effects of Ostagar. The most effective section of the game is the Deep Roads with the Broodmother for this reason: it's not just that the Blight is a threat, but that you are actually shown the specifics of the apocalypse and what will happen. Inquisition works similarly.

Speaking of showing the effects, it's simply not true that Inquisition doesn't show dark stuff or the consequences of war. What exactly am I missing about burning villages, slaughtered civilians, mass pits of dead that have risen to become undead, abominations taking over mansions and refugees, rogue bands of templars and mages killing and plundering, deserters from Orlesian armies doing the same in places like Emerald Graves, Red Templars kidnapping people and implanting red lyrium inside them to the point that one begs you to kill her? What, because it wasn't a cutscene? What about couples trying to flee bandits and being killed, a mother trying to protect her child by throwing herself on top of it before a sword through the chest kills them both? Because it's environmental storytelling, it doesn't exist? What about Cassandra's Seeker plotline and meeting the Seeker who had a demon planted inside him, asking Cassandra to kill him to stop the pain? I'm even going to specifically call out that you say we don't see the Warden sacrifices when we blatantly do in two different instances: at the Western Approach and Adamantine Fortress.

You say that it's a weakness that the Mage/Templar war is resolved early and the Breach closed. That stretch is one of my favorite parts of the game. Properly evaluating the mage and templar situation is something it would have taken the Inquisitor the entire game to get up to speed on, and even then it would have felt a bit strange. The entire game's purpose is explicitly stated as being closing the Breach and stopping those responsible. Why exactly isn't this the primary reason for choosing a side in the war? And indeed, Inquisition recognizes this. When discussing who should be approached, your advisors broach more topics than simply "who is right" (as if that's likely to be a useful discussion for the Inquisition at that point and time). Instead, more practical topics are discussed. Who does the Inquisition have the influence to approach? Are the mages dealing with Tevinter and should we intervene there? What's going on with the Lord Commander Templar? Perhaps most importantly, who would be able to assist more efficiently in closing the Breach, you know, that end of the world thing going on in the sky up there? Inquisition's greatest strength in who you pick is that it remains silent, allowing you to decide your own reasons for your actions. This is smart because motives will be complicated in what is a naturally complicated situation. Just see what a mess Mass Effect 2's Collector Base decision is when it comes to actually implementing motives for action in dialogue. Beyond that, it was a good decision to close the Breach early and then get destroyed at Haven, because it actually feels like the plot is moving. This is opposed to Origins, where the main plot sits and waits for the Landsmeet to happen. It's true that Inquisition doesn't really live up to that after Haven (Cory just sits and takes your victories with the Wardens and Orlais), but this is something that Trespasser fixes.

Speaking of Trespasser, we aren't just comparing Loghain and the Archdemon to Corypheus. We're comparing them to Corypheus and Solas. I could write more here about how Solas is the best BioWare villain since Sun Li, but I'm willing to just call this a wash.

Now, as for reasons why I feel Inquisition is clearly superior:

The game is actually about something. No, I'm not talking about "the plot" or "what happens", I mean thematically, something that imbues the events of the game with meaning outside of themselves. Mainly, I'm talking here about the focus on the character of a Chosen One and a complicated, nuanced discussion of organized religion. Simply put, Inquisition has the most mature and intelligent discussion of the role and importance (or lack thereof, if you choose to RP that) of organized religion that we've seen in a game. It doesn't posit Church leaders as either villains or saints like damn near every game out there (even well-written games such as Final Fantasy Tactics fall victim to this). It doesn't comment on whether religion is good or bad except insofar as it comments that both of those things can be true. Cassandra is the best portrayal of a religious person that you could hope for, someone who doesn't feel like a strawmen, but a reasonable person willing to see both sides but choosing to believe in faith. And I say this, by the way, as someone who doesn't have an ounce of spirituality in them. I can simply recognize and appreciate good writing when I see it. Similarly, the Inquisitor-as-Chosen-One is well handled. It actually kind of amazes me when I see people say that Inquisition sports the traditional Chosen One archetype. I'd say that perhaps BioWare was for once too subtle in its writing, except it wasn't really subtle at all in Here Lies The Abyss when they revealed that you were merely an accident, exactly like the villain says. Characters often tell you that whatever you belief doesn't really matter. The Chosen One as a religious reality is a separate question from the Chosen One as a political or social reality. As Varys says, power resides where men believe it resides, and the Inquisition is set to use that perception.

What this means is that quite a few characters in the game are actually manipulating either you or the Inquisition's followers. It's telling that after the Dawn Will Come you can go to Giselle and question her about some of these things. That scene, to me, isn't actually sappy at all, because it's Giselle making a calculated manuever to more or less brainwash the Inquisition's followers into believing you are Divine. Later, when it's revealed you aren't, you are given several RP opportunities to respond to this. Beyond your conversations with your companions and advisors, the best one is when Josephine asks what you should tell Orlais about the events of Here Lies. Do you want to lie? Tell the truth? Neither? Why? The game is riddled with these complicated questions about the central tenet of you-as-Inquisitor. What do you believe about your role? About religion? About the Chantry specifically? About the war? Does it even matter? You lament the loss of possibilities to be evil, but I celebrate finally having several viable roles to play within a given type of morality. An attempt at breadth is going to result in a loss of depth, and the Inquisitor, thanks to the focus of the dialogues in the main story, is given the opportunity to be more specific about specific topics than any previous BioWare protagonist, with the possible exception of the Bhaalspawn.

I agree that the themes of DAI were better than DAO. But the theme is not the entirety of what I judge a game on. It's my enjoyment of playing all of the game, side content included and how the side content relates to the overall experience. The theme in DAI is also diluted because it's mashed together with the cut content from DA2, and it shows. The game starts off about the Chantry, faith, and our status as the Herald of Andraste. But by the end it's transformed into ancient elven lore, the Solas reveal, and the transition to DA4 called Trespasser.

 

I think the fact that the culmination of the faith theme is spirit Justinia in HltA means that its importance declines for the final third of the game. We can have some minor reactions, but there is no impact of this revelation.



#574
CronoDragoon

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I agree that the themes of DAI were better than DAO. But the theme is not the entirety of what I judge a game on. It's my enjoyment of playing all of the game, side content included and how the side content relates to the overall experience. The theme in DAI is also diluted because it's mashed together with the cut content from DA2, and it shows. The game starts off about the Chantry, faith, and our status as the Herald of Andraste. But by the end it's transformed into ancient elven lore, the Solas reveal, and the transition to DA4 called Trespasser.
 
I think the fact that the culmination of the faith theme is spirit Justinia in HltA means that its importance declines for the final third of the game. We can have some minor reactions, but there is no impact of this revelation.


The Chantry, Maker, and Andraste isn't the only paradigm of spiritual belief, though. Having gone through what it wanted about your role as Andraste's Chosen, it switches to examining the Elven beliefs. And what I said above about perception becoming power is holy crap relevant when it comes to the Enuvaris. So basically I see the switch to the Elven Gods as a natural progression in the game's examination of Thedosian religious beliefs and institutions. After all, I think it's strongly hinted that all the different myths are connected by ancient events that have been interpreted through history...largely wrongly.

This is also going to vary by playthrough, because for my canon Elf Inquisitor the transition is even more to the point. This is kind of why my canon is an Elf, really.
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#575
TheKomandorShepard

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So I'm curious, how is another ending not game over?  Doesn't the fact that you're calling it an ending mean that the game is over, thus Game Over?  This is the problem with your critique, in my eyes, you don't understand this basic concept of "ending means game over", and yet you continue to run down the story, which is more complex than "end means game over".  You see, I'm not twisting anything, I'm just applying logic to what you say.  That it comes out messed up isn't my fault, I can't fix what you said, I can only apply the logic to it.  That it's messed up isn't my fault, but yours.

 

Very simple term game over in video games almost always refers to losing game so you rather have no idea what you are talking about. No you don't apply my logic you apply own "insane troll logic" and try to push it under my name as i said That if origins did X and it is fine (because x was perfectly justified) doesn't mean that if Da 2 did X it is fine (where X makes no sense) .Even other people called you out on doing that so you are one who messed up not me.  

 

 

As you can see by reading the post you quoted, I already covered all of this.  I explained exactly why the choices weren't offered, and what the presumed result would have been if they had been offered.

 

I also touched on most of this, however, regarding the Chantry Sister, it's needed to push the plot forward.  But let's look at Hawke, while we're at it, but let's look at a line from Inquisition, where, after introductions, you ask for help, and Hawke says something to the effect of "Are you sure you want my help, my advice nearly destroyed Kirkwall".  This is another example of missing the subtext:  Hawke wasn't cut out to be a "save the world" hero.  Hawke was always in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time.  That's all it was, and all it will ever be.

 

Once again not giving choices that would move you away from main goal of the game (stoping blight) isn't equal to forcing you to be an idiot or allow nonsense in order to move plot forward.

 

No it is not , unless they wanted Hawke to fail regardless and what still doesn't change fact game forces you to do something obviously stupid in order to enforce failure what is poor writing.