That doesn't justify mocking me at all, and I don't plan to sit here and be insulted for having a contrary opinion on Dragon Age ]['s quest design.
Find someone else to belittle, I'm done with you.
...For what it's worth, you are one of a huge horde of people attacking DA2 in this forum. I'm lashing out at a horde, not you personally.
Is everyone insane? It's perfectly reasonable for Hawke to want to help. Not only is the introduction of a mutilated saarebas being escorted out of a city occupied by qunari an intriguing quest, yes it is a plot point.
Because this is not an mmo and *GASPS* IT IS A STORY WITH. FACKING PLOT
OH NOES!
A GAME WITH A PLOT? DESTROY IT
WE WANT MINDLESS CRAP PLEASE
Except it is a blatant 'but thou must' and I despise them, specifically their is no REASON to do that quest, yes it advances the plot, but Hawke does not have a reason to do it, it is simply a box you have to tick to move on, rather than feeling like a part of an evolving plot it is a hook to turn you into a bystander and you agree because 'reasons' that are never elaborated, even DA:I did a better job of answering 'why' questions, 'why do I have to fight Corpsefish' Oh right he will murder me for this doohickey, not a great answer, but an answer, one that doesn't leave the protagonist as a railroaded puppet, or rather hides the rails better, that is why it is annoying it feels so forced and she is so obnoxious that not being able to tell her to screw it is really infuriating. If one of your companions had asked, or it had been necessary to gain chantry support for reclaiming the mansion, then well, we have a reason to do it, something to explain why we are working for this stuck up loon. See my point? She is necessary for the plot..maybe, the dwarf with the stolen formula makes as much sense, but we have no IC reason to care, no IC reason to do it, yet we are forced to, because the game requires it, and without a reason in plot it grates on me something fierce.
Except it is a blatant 'but thou must' and I despise them, specifically their is no REASON to do that quest, yes it advances the plot, but Hawke does not have a reason to do it, it is simply a box you have to tick to move on, rather than feeling like a part of an evolving plot it is a hook to turn you into a bystander and you agree because 'reasons' that are never elaborated, even DA:I did a better job of answering 'why' questions, 'why do I have to fight Corpsefish' Oh right he will murder me for this doohickey, not a great answer, but an answer, one that doesn't leave the protagonist as a railroaded puppet, or rather hides the rails better, that is why it is annoying it feels so forced and she is so obnoxious that not being able to tell her to screw it is really infuriating. If one of your companions had asked, or it had been necessary to gain chantry support for reclaiming the mansion, then well, we have a reason to do it, something to explain why we are working for this stuck up loon.
I'm a little foggy on the details, but wasn't she paying us? Isn't that about the only reason a merc/adventurer type needs to take a job?
My NWN server had a rather in depth story. But it also had some PW functionality in the form of a job board, that served as a guide to side quests that needed to be done for the general populace of the starter town. It was an extremely low magic world, built accordingly, so those little extra jobs were needed for cash. I see the Patrice thing as one of those, although it did have some plot relevance too.
Except it is a blatant 'but thou must' and I despise them, specifically their is no REASON to do that quest, yes it advances the plot, but Hawke does not have a reason to do it, it is simply a box you have to tick to move on, rather than feeling like a part of an evolving plot it is a hook to turn you into a bystander and you agree because 'reasons' that are never elaborated, even DA:I did a better job of answering 'why' questions, 'why do I have to fight Corpsefish' Oh right he will murder me for this doohickey, not a great answer, but an answer, one that doesn't leave the protagonist as a railroaded puppet, or rather hides the rails better, that is why it is annoying it feels so forced and she is so obnoxious that not being able to tell her to screw it is really infuriating. If one of your companions had asked, or it had been necessary to gain chantry support for reclaiming the mansion, then well, we have a reason to do it, something to explain why we are working for this stuck up loon.
I don't understand your argument, though.
There is anti-Fereldan sentiment in Kirkwall. There is anti-Qunari sentiment in Kirkwall. Judgey Chantry Sisters and Mothers are the first to predictably fit into the conservative anti-alien Kirkwall population, and not only that, we know the Chantry is an important function in the human societies of Thedas. Kirkwall is a human society. Just as in our own world, it makes sense that there are zealots and fringe factions that are deeply conservative and want to take matters into their own hands. Hence, someone like Sister Petric - now being introduced as a major character into the story, representing this element of Thedas and the reaction to the Qunari. On the opposite side, Hawke has become a prominent citizen of Kirkwall. The definition of a person who has grown into the very fabric of Kirkwall society. A rags to riches refugee. How would Hawke not be a part of this?
That's what a story consists of: characters, setting, plot. Plot includes cause and effect - the effect contingent on the setting.
Setting - Thedas. Kirkwall. Human society that respects chantry, looks up to chantry, think of Catholic church, past religions, Tea Party.
Cahracters - Hawke. Motivation has been limited by Bioware writer. Hawke wants money. Hawke wants to make a life in Kirwall. That means making friends and inevitably becoming invested in their friends. You can't turn away from that motivation.
Sister Petrice. A character with the motivation to expel foreigners from Kirkwall. Makes sense. Conservative element in Thedas, right.
Qunari. The Qunari are watching, the Qunari need the relic, and they also like to project their Qun on other countries as we have seen before. They have an evanglist-type mandate in them.
Plot - Cause: Because Hawke is now invested in Kirkwall, is always up for more coin, and wants to defend her friends which she cares about, it seems reasonable that she would at least be curious about looking into this suspicious zealot, Sister Petrice, who is going to be antagonizing a major invasive force in her city. Effect: Hawke investigates.
I don't understand your argument, though.
There is anti-Fereldan sentiment in Kirkwall. There is anti-Qunari sentiment in Kirkwall. Judgey Chantry Sisters and Mothers are the first to predictably fit into the conservative anti-alien Kirkwall population, and not only that, we know the Chantry is an important function in the human societies of Thedas. Kirkwall is a human society. Just as in our own world, it makes sense that there are zealots and fringe factions that are deeply conservative and want to take matters into their own hands. Hence, someone like Sister Petric - now being introduced as a major character into the story, representing this element of Thedas and the reaction to the Qunari. On the opposite side, Hawke has become a prominent citizen of Kirkwall. The definition of a person who has grown into the very fabric of Kirkwall society. A rags to riches refugee. How would Hawke not be a part of this?
at the point the job is offered it looks far more trouble than it is worth, so why take it? Give me a reason from the game not head canon, Hawke would take it, an obviously mad zealot asks you to do something and the best option is always run, if you have a choice, and nothing has taken away Hawkes choice to do so, except the game, not a plot point, not a thing we need to do for any in universe reason, just a box the game needs checking. That's the issue, up to that point we have needed the money, but now easier, safer jobs have got us the cash to go on our grand reclaim our heritage adventure, we are on a clock, and this zealot appears with a dangerous political task that looks extremely doodgy and risks angering very scary horny people and we take it because....why? And remember at this point Hawke is a nobody, a mook, so has no again, no protection from the blow back from this, why take the risk?
at the point the job is offered it looks far more trouble than it is worth, so why take it? Give me a reason from the game not head canon, Hawke would take it, an obviously mad zealot asks you to do something and the best option is always run, if you have a choice, and nothing has taken away Hawkes choice to do so, except the game, not a plot point, not a thing we need to do for any in universe reason, just a box the game needs checking. That's the issue, up to that point we have needed the money, but now easier, safer jobs have got us the cash to go on our grand reclaim our heritage adventure, we are on a clock, and this zealot appears with a dangerous political task that looks extremely doodgy and risks angering very scary horny people and we take it because....why?
So you are pointing to the very initiation into the quest into the first place. Petrice wasn't apparently a mad zealot in the beginning. She just looked like a helpless woman who wanted to do a mutilated Saarebas a favor. It is presumed that the multilated look of the Saarebas and the ignorance of the character on what is going on would lead to the character downgrading the mission to something rather minor at first. Honestly when I first looked at the quest, I thought it was a small side quest too.
I think that, again, we have a pre-existing character. By this point, you should be conditioned to have some kind of opinion on mages and/or slavery. There is no option to not care within the game. Your own brother or sister is either a mage or templar. You create a bond with Aveline whose husband was a templar. You are assisted by a rebel mage into the Deep Roads and even if you hate him, the very fact he's been spouting the mage-templar rhetoric at your nonstop throughout the game means that you must have mulled it over by now.
It's assumed that the very image of a multilated Saarebas - the defining concept of 1. a slave 2. a mage has SOME bearing on you and you give a f* about it in some capacity. So yes, you are going to look into it.
Just because you accept the coin to lead the Saarebas out, doesn't mean you have to do a good deed, though. You are then given the option to turn the Saarebas over, if you are not pro-mage or don't care about the plight of slaves, just as you can turn Fenris over, too.
There is a difference between headcanon and a reasonable spectrum of likely, intended interpretations and analyses of the events and situations given to us in a piece of media.
at the point the job is offered it looks far more trouble than it is worth, so why take it? Give me a reason from the game not head canon, Hawke would take it, an obviously mad zealot asks you to do something and the best option is always run, if you have a choice, and nothing has taken away Hawkes choice to do so, except the game, not a plot point, not a thing we need to do for any in universe reason, just a box the game needs checking. That's the issue, up to that point we have needed the money, but now easier, safer jobs have got us the cash to go on our grand reclaim our heritage adventure, we are on a clock, and this zealot appears with a dangerous political task that looks extremely doodgy and risks angering very scary horny people and we take it because....why? And remember at this point Hawke is a nobody, a mook, so has no again, no protection from the blow back from this, why take the risk?
Hawke is not desk clerk. Hawke lives for the thrill of the adrenaline rush and is most definitely not a mook. A meek and mild Hawke would not have made it out of either Ostagar or Lothering. That is made clear from the the very first moments by Carver.
How could that work? I'm in favor of giving players ways to fail, but I can't see a way to implement this policy and succeed.
Edit: But, yeah, there is a problem between the defeat of Corypheus and Trespasser. Some Inquisitors would want to blow up the Inquisition then. Note that this is the exact same RP problem as DA:A introduces, now that it's canonical that surviving Wardens stayed with the Order.
Except it is a blatant 'but thou must' and I despise them, specifically their is no REASON to do that quest, yes it advances the plot, but Hawke does not have a reason to do it, it is simply a box you have to tick to move on, rather than feeling like a part of an evolving plot it is a hook to turn you into a bystander and you agree because 'reasons' that are never elaborated, even DA:I did a better job of answering 'why' questions, 'why do I have to fight Corpsefish' Oh right he will murder me for this doohickey, not a great answer, but an answer, one that doesn't leave the protagonist as a railroaded puppet, or rather hides the rails better, that is why it is annoying it feels so forced and she is so obnoxious that not being able to tell her to screw it is really infuriating. If one of your companions had asked, or it had been necessary to gain chantry support for reclaiming the mansion, then well, we have a reason to do it, something to explain why we are working for this stuck up loon. See my point? She is necessary for the plot..maybe, the dwarf with the stolen formula makes as much sense, but we have no IC reason to care, no IC reason to do it, yet we are forced to, because the game requires it, and without a reason in plot it grates on me something fierce.
There's no reason to stick around in Ferelden, and yet here you are, with a "But Thou Must" from Flemeth and Alistiar. The problem isn't the "But Thou Must", it's that Bioware didn't understand that their players don't always accept these no matter how obvious they are unless they understand and buy into the basic premise of the game. And they never managed to actually convey a premise for DA2 that properly justified those quests.
In fact, sticking around in Ferelden is pretty stupid when you remove protagonist invulnerability.
Hawke was going to fail, no matter what, because the mage/Templar war was already going on in the novels, at least to my understanding of the timeline. This is another thing that gets lost in the shuffle: The story isn't about the HoF, or Hawke, or even the Inquisitor. The star of the game is Thedas. We've been told this tidbit over and over, over the course of the last few years, and yet it's always lost in the shuffle.
Novels with mage/templar war (Asunder) were written after dragon age 2 and loosely refer to da 2 events and even have own canon implemented.None of what you said excuses stupidity of da 2 plot.
Actually, all Game Over means is, quite literally, that the game is over. We get a game over screen in the form of credits, win, lose or draw. However, if you choose to bail instead of trying to resolve the situation in Kirkwall, then you do lose. Just the same as you would if you chose not to play the story in Origins.
One would think that you would check if you are correct , but sadly i see it is too much. Here have meaning of term gave over.No, once again you wouldn't unless you think finishing the game is losing it.
Is everyone insane? It's perfectly reasonable for Hawke to want to help. Not only is the introduction of a mutilated saarebas being escorted out of a city occupied by qunari an intriguing quest, yes it is a plot point.
Because this is not an mmo and *GASPS* IT IS A STORY WITH. FACKING PLOT
OH NOES!
A GAME WITH A PLOT? DESTROY IT
WE WANT MINDLESS CRAP PLEASE
I see you have same problem processing what other people are talking about. In first place as i said forcing protagonist to do something that makes sense in order to move game forward isn't equal to forcing protagonist to do idotic things in order to move game forward.
No its not reasonable , by that point we may have achieved protagonist goal to get 50 sovereigns so there is no reason for protagonist to do things , plus game taking away only sane option to kill Petrice after what she have done and shown who she was is another thing.
I didn't mean reject the Inquisition as a whole, I meant take it in a different direction that being a faithful servant of the Chantry. Have us lead the Inquisition as a messiah and outright reject the current Chantry. I was also referring to the examples ShadowLord had in his above post. Lead through fear, because we're the only one who can stop the Breach.
I think this would have been an interesting way of exploring faith and power.
Yeah, but I'm always reminded of the key problem with the Inquisition doing such things ... they are fundamentally a volunteer organization (with a few exceptions for conscription) that are funded primarily by donations from the corresponding governments of Fereldon and Orlais, along with contributions from Nobility. They are only giving that to you due to the good faith you've earned through your supportive actions, if you start down the "fear" route there could be some pretty big narrative problems. Like its hard to scare the very people who are your life lines for funding. They would simply cut you off and then you would have one of two options. Intimidate them into giving you money, or taking it by force ... and then how would your army of volunteers react to that? 
The strange thing is one of the main reasons that the Inquisitor does come off as so restrictive is because the Inquisition itself was so restricted. Its hard to run an organization when your broke and its hard to generate your own currency without land. As a result it is an organization almost exclusively run by donations and private funding and therefore only really had any power at all while it was seen as useful to it's backers. Two years after the Breach and with the relevance of the Inquisition waning heavily, Orlais, the Chantry, and Fereldon have you by the financial short hairs ... leaving the Quizzy with very few options. 
This conversation is also rather ironic because even if, somehow, you do not care about the situation going in how you can not care about the situation going out. Which is kinda the point. This is a quest that introduces you to several major characters and plot points throughout the entire game. Like the finest of TV and movie writing. Hawk starts out on what seems like a relatively small mercy mission and gets caught up in a plot which eventually leads to war. Brilliantly done. And, you should damn well care about Peatrice after she betrayed you, lied to you, and used you throughout this entire process.
Yeah, but I'm always reminded of the key problem with the Inquisition doing such things ... they are fundamentally a volunteer organization (with a few exceptions for conscription) that are funded primarily by donations from the corresponding governments of Fereldon and Orlais, along with contributions from Nobility. They are only giving that to you due to the good faith you've earned through your supportive actions, if you start down the "fear" route there could be some pretty big narrative problems. Like its hard to scare the very people who are your life lines for funding. They would simply cut you off and then you would have one of two options. Intimidate them into giving you money, or taking it by force ... and then how would your army of volunteers react to that?
The strange thing is one of the main reasons that the Inquisitor does come off as so restrictive is because the Inquisition itself was so restricted. Its hard to run an organization when your broke and its hard to generate your own currency without land. As a result it is an organization almost exclusively run by donations and private funding and therefore only really had any power at all while it was seen as useful to it's backers. Two years after the Breach and with the relevance of the Inquisition waning heavily, Orlais, the Chantry, and Fereldon have you by the financial short hairs ... leaving the Quizzy with very few options.
most of my money came from looting the bodies of the dead. 
This conversation is also rather ironic because even if, somehow, you do not care about the situation going in how you can not care about the situation going out. Which is kinda the point. This is a quest that introduces you to several major characters and plot points throughout the entire game. Like the finest of TV and movie writing. Hawk starts out on what seems like a relatively small mercy mission and gets caught up in a plot which eventually leads to war. Brilliantly done. And, you should damn well care about Peatrice after she betrayed you, lied to you, and used you throughout this entire process.
Once again no, first of all if they wanted to introduce character or plot point they shouldn't do that in completely idotic way they did. It isn't brilliantly done if plot of the game could be easily averted if protagonist wasn't clueless idiot that does things that contradict common sense.
most of my money came from looting the bodies of the dead.
Especially the Sha-Brytol...most money I ever made from murder in a video game since GTAV.
Once again no, first of all if they wanted to introduce character or plot point they shouldn't do that in completely idotic way they did. It isn't brilliantly done if plot of the game could be easily averted if protagonist wasn't clueless idiot that does things that contradict common sense.
So you knew Peatrice was a liar from the very first second?
So you knew Peatrice was a liar from the very first second?
Well to be honest she wasn't among most trustworthy people i have meet to put it lightly, but didn't know about her plans, it is that helping her is pretty much pointless and unnecessary risk of pissing off Qunari and then letting her go is one of many moments where stupidity of the game plot goes off-charts and what of course backfires leading to Hawke failure in his task in act 2.
So you knew Peatrice was a liar from the very first second?
She doesn't come across as an angel. 
She doesn't come across as an angel.
No but she does not exactly come off as maleovolent either. Which is perhaps another reason any random Hawk would have for wanting to investigate.
This conversation is also rather ironic because even if, somehow, you do not care about the situation going in how you can not care about the situation going out. Which is kinda the point. This is a quest that introduces you to several major characters and plot points throughout the entire game. Like the finest of TV and movie writing. Hawk starts out on what seems like a relatively small mercy mission and gets caught up in a plot which eventually leads to war. Brilliantly done. And, you should damn well care about Peatrice after she betrayed you, lied to you, and used you throughout this entire process.
Firstly It's not that some of us didn't care about Petrice, we just don't like how she only walks out of that shed alive thanks to her plot armor.
Secondly I'm saying there's no reason Hawke has to meet her for Petrice's actions in Act 2 to make sense. That's why I keep saying it was a mistake to force players into accepting every little quest.
The only main quests in Act 1 that should matter are:
A Business Discussion
A New Home?
Long Way Home
Tranquility
Friends in Low Places (if you somehow don't have 50 sovereigns)
The Deep Roads Expedition
Every other main quest should have been skippable to head into the Deep Roads once you have the 50 sovereigns and the maps from Anders.
Firstly It's not that some of us didn't care about Petrice, we just don't like how she only walks out of that shed alive thanks to her plot armor.
Secondly I'm saying there's no reason Hawke has to meet her for Petrice's actions in Act 2 to make sense. That's why I keep saying it was a mistake to force players into accepting every little quest.
The only main quests in Act 1 that should matter are:
A Business Discussion
A New Home?
Long Way Home
Tranquility
Friends in Low Places (if you somehow don't have 50 sovereigns)
The Deep Roads Expedition
Every other main quest should have been skippable to head into the Deep Roads once you have the 50 sovereigns and the maps from Anders.
SO you should have been given the choice to murder some innocent Chantry official? How would the Kirkwall nobility and Chantry and Templars have taken that little action?
Petrice being innocent is a laugh, but to answer the question yes we should have. She's in Lowtown, it's pitifully easy for anyone to assume she was murdered by any of the random street gangs down there.
If killing her is absolutely out of the question however, simply have her vacate the house before Hawke gets back. She'd leave a note and some coin to pay Hawke and explain her actions. This removes her plot armor and allows her to have a hand in Act 2's events.
Petrice being innocent is a laugh, but to answer the question yes we should have. She's in Lowtown, it's pitifully easy for anyone to assume she was murdered by any of the random street gangs down there.
If killing her is absolutely out of the question however, simply have her vacate the house before Hawke gets back. She'd leave a note and some coin to pay Hawke and explain her actions. This removes her plot armor and allows her to have a hand in Act 2's events.
We know she is guilty but at the time it is essentially her word against yours and thus killing her, and if Hawk is caught, would be very bad for Hawk. She certainly looks innocent to the outside world.
As for the rest, I do like.
We know she is guilty but at the time it is essentially her word against yours and thus killing her, and if Hawk is caught, would be very bad for Hawk. She certainly looks innocent to the outside world.
As for the rest, I do like.
She is only with 1 templar at night in a very dangerous city district in a abandoned building , so chances of Hawke being Caught are pretty much close to zero.
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