821 réponses à ce sujet

[Secret Rare]

Considering that Inquistor didn't secure his power it was pretty much obvious at least for me that Inqustior won't maintain position of power he held.If game allowed us play truly self-centred and power-hungry Inquistor it would allow inquistor to force himself on divine seat when he had opportunity.

How it could happen with a non female Inquisitor?

Divines of the southern chantry has this tradition that they al should be female possibly not dwarves,nor Qunari or elves,but i think gender is the main problem.

So it would have been like in DAO(King/queen ending) unless you do not satisfy certain prerequisite you can't become Divine even if your character was a power hungry protagonist.

[KaiserShep]

Dorian was good, but his side quest involving his father seemed unrelated to the world at hand. A bit like a contemporary sexuality PSA.

Even in the game itself they have a codex you pick up in the chateau in Emerald Graves which says "Sexuality in Thedas," and claims Thedas doesn't really care. Apparently Tevinter does, but for the most part, we don't expect the protagonist to be asking "what? You're interested in MEN? What does that meann" in the dialogue choices and for his entire side story to be focused on it. It just breaks immersion.

A similar quest was where Miranda wanted to ensure her sister escaped their father in Mass Effect 2. But this was different because it was more clear they were on a suicide mission and the whole point was to resolve personal issues, so yes we were zooming into family issues.

Iron Bull had a better side quest as it circled back around to the main story - an offer of alliance with the Qunari for the organization the Inquisitor is building. Vivienne's quest about her dying lover ....was also weak. It's interesting and gives us additional insight into Vivienne, but I wouldn't make it the only side quest for her. Sera has an ok side quest basis as it is all Red Jenny, supposedly an organization that can help the Inquisition, though it completely fails narratively speaking since we don't see it manifest even one bit and it ends at collecting cache locations. Varric? Ummm I guess we destroyed red lyrium for him....a bit of a lazily done side content honestly, even if definitely related to the story at hand.

Anyways, all I'm saying is, it wasn't like "oh my god we're entering the omega 4 relay tomorrow and you'll probably die, say goodbye to your intolerant father." So it ended up just being a random sexuality PSA with too many non-Thedas, contemporary overtones. I just feel like representation of a gay character could've been done more effectively as integrated into the story.

 

 

 

The only way to integrate Dorian's personal quest into the story would be to have his father be yet another Venatori agent. That wouldn't really make it more interesting, especially since the Inquisitor can outright suggest that it could be a Venatori trap. In any case, I think integrating personal quests into the story is fairly overrated anyway. Shepard would never have fought alongside Grunt in the arena otherwise

[Addictress]

The only way to integrate Dorian's personal quest into the story would be to have his father be yet another Venatori agent. That wouldn't really make it more interesting, especially since the Inquisitor can outright suggest that it could be a Venatori trap. In any case, I think integrating personal quests into the story is fairly overrated anyway. Shepard would never have fought alongside Grunt in the arena otherwise

You're right. Grunt's story wasn't related but it was an awesome quest.

I guess Grunt's story was saved by:

1. Awesome staged battle
2. His whole character is shaped by the fact he's a freshly-cracked embryo, so makes sense he's going through puberty or whatever.
3. A lot of interaction with leader, priest, clan rivals at Tuchanka gives us the feeling we're delving into Tuchanka culture, giving Tuchanka depth.

Perhaps Dorian's side quest could've been salvaged with these added elements.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

How it could happen with a non female Inquisitor?

Divines of the southern chantry has this tradition that they al should be female possibly not dwarves,nor Qunari or elves,but i think gender is the main problem.

So it would have been like in DAO(King/queen ending) unless you do not satisfy certain prerequisite you can't become Divine even if your character was a power hungry protagonist.

 

Easily , you want to tell me that mage can become divine but male can't? Granted Viviene wasn't very well recived because of being mage , difference is that Inquistor is respected and loved by many and is considered to be champion of the maker by the people.

To be honest, who would ask chantry for opinion, chantry couldn't do anything about Templars let alone Inquisiton so as i said Inquistor could force himself on divine seat and chantry wouldn't be in position to do anything.

[correctamundo]

The man who would be Divine*

 

*King.

[vbibbi]

I do kinda wish that the Inquisition war table would have given us the ability to assign our troops to actually do some of the side quests for us. 

 

Yeah I really wanted war tables in the field, similar to how The Descent had one. Most of the smaller side quests in each zone could be completed via war table, and we could either use power points to deploy agents but still receive experience, or we could not spend any power points but also not receive any experience. Or some variation to balance gameplay. If we use power points I think we wouldn't need real time timers, or else have them all be significantly shorter than they were in the game.

 

 

The only way to integrate Dorian's personal quest into the story would be to have his father be yet another Venatori agent. That wouldn't really make it more interesting, especially since the Inquisitor can outright suggest that it could be a Venatori trap. In any case, I think integrating personal quests into the story is fairly overrated anyway. Shepard would never have fought alongside Grunt in the arena otherwise

I just wanted Dorian's personal quest to be about anything other than his sexuality. And I've heard all the defenses of his quest, that it's about blood magic and the status quo in Tevinter. Yes it is, but to me it really feels like it's about Dorian being a gay man and his family not accepting that.

 

Why can't that be a small aspect of his character but his personal quest actually focuses on identifying Venatori agents working in Southern Thedas? Or some other aspect of his personality than doesn't involve his sexuality? I enjoy Dorian well enough as a character, but I don't see his presence as particularly ground breaking for LGBT players. It's the same as TV shows where a gay character's entire personality revolves around their sexuality; they don't have any other defining features.

[AlanC9]

I don't see how Dorian's quest really has all that much to do with his sexuality. If he was fleeing an arranged marrage but was straight or bi, you'd have to change, what, six words?

[Mr Fixit]

I don't see how Dorian's quest really has all that much to do with his sexuality. If he was fleeing an arranged marrage but was straight or bi, you'd have to change, what, six words?

 

QFT.

[Iakus]

QFT.

+1

[Iakus]

 

I just wanted Dorian's personal quest to be about anything other than his sexuality. And I've heard all the defenses of his quest, that it's about blood magic and the status quo in Tevinter. Yes it is, but to me it really feels like it's about Dorian being a gay man and his family not accepting that.

 

Dorian's being pressured to marry a woman he's never met, and father a child to advance Tevinter's eugenics program to create "the perfect mage"  This is something he has no interest in doing, especially given his own parents, who were forced to do the same thing and ended up despising each other.  He doesn't want that life.  It's not fair to him, to her, or to the potential child.

 

That he is gay is just an additional detail.

[Iakus]

I don't see how Dorian's quest really has all that much to do with his sexuality. If he was fleeing an arranged marrage but was straight or bi, you'd have to change, what, six words?

I wonder, if a female inquisitor romances Josephine, does the duel with Otranto now become about Josephine's sexuality?  

[vbibbi]

I don't see how Dorian's quest really has all that much to do with his sexuality. If he was fleeing an arranged marrage but was straight or bi, you'd have to change, what, six words?

Because the quest is an obvious allusion to real world gay therapy camps and other conversion therapies. The entire reason his father was going to use blood magic was to try to change his sexuality, not to just mind control him into marrying someone he doesn't love. So no, changing a few words would not make it fit in a straight storyline. The outrage and disgust Dorian has at his father's actions is because his father would rather have a human vegetable than a gay son.

 

The quest is not about Dorian choosing not to marry someone. It's about his sexuality making him stand out from the status quo. So to me, it does feel like a Very Special Episode.

[vbibbi]

Dorian's being pressured to marry a woman he's never met, and father a child to advance Tevinter's eugenics program to create "the perfect mage"  This is something he has no interest in doing, especially given his own parents, who were forced to do the same thing and ended up despising each other.  He doesn't want that life.  It's not fair to him, to her, or to the potential child.

 

That he is gay is just an additional detail.

Dorian: "But what was the first thing you did when your precious heir refused to play pretend for the rest of his life? You tried to change me."

 

Note the tone of the bolded.

 

It's up to interpretation like everything else, but this is very clear to me that Dorian is talking about his father trying to use blood magic to change his sexuality. When we've seen blood magic before used to control a person, it's not presented as fundamentally changing that person, the blood magic is using them like a puppet; the victim still has their own mind, they're just not in control of their body.

 

The way Dorian's father was going, he wanted to actually make a change to Dorian so that he was no longer gay. The quest is all about his sexuality.

[Dabrikishaw]

I don't see how Dorian's quest really has all that much to do with his sexuality. If he was fleeing an arranged marrage but was straight or bi, you'd have to change, what, six words?

While that's the impression I had from it as well,  I admit probably has more to do with me being Straight. I think I've seen more openly Gay players complain about Dorian's companion quest in this manner that Straight players.

 

Please don't take my post the wrong way, I only meant to post a reaction I found interesting.

[Heimdall]

Dorian: "But what was the first thing you did when your precious heir refused to play pretend for the rest of his life? You tried to change me."

Note the tone of the bolded.

It's up to interpretation like everything else, but this is very clear to me that Dorian is talking about his father trying to use blood magic to change his sexuality. When we've seen blood magic before used to control a person, it's not presented as fundamentally changing that person, the blood magic is using them like a puppet; the victim still has their own mind, they're just not in control of their body.

The way Dorian's father was going, he wanted to actually make a change to Dorian so that he was no longer gay. The quest is all about his sexuality.

But the only reason his sexuality was an issue was because he refused to be forced into an arranged marriage with a woman.

I mean, yeah, the allusion is clear, but the whole quest would have worked just as well with Dorian being straight with minimal dialogue changes.

[vbibbi]

But the only reason his sexuality was an issue was because he refused to be forced into an arranged marriage with a woman.

I mean, yeah, the allusion is clear, but the whole quest would have worked just as well with Dorian being straight with minimal dialogue changes.

I think this is an issue where people are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think using blood magic to fundamentally change someone as a person is much more horrible than using it to change someone's desire of one person. They're both horrible, but I would rather be made to find one person attractive by force than be made to change my entire sexuality.

 

If Dorian had been straight and the quest had gone as planned, it seems a bit silly for his father to risk his sole heir being made into a vegetable, when he could have found another girl with the right lineage to see if she would be a more bearable match. His father only resorted to dangerous magic because he thought that there was no other way that Dorian would obey his family obligations and marry. He couldn't find the right girl, because there was no right girl. But a straight!Dorian refusing the choice of fiancee his father provides sounds more like a romantic comedy.

 

I know I'm applying real world sexual politics and identity into this, but as it's the source material I think it's valid. Gaider was excited to create the first gay male companion for DA, and part of that, IMO, was catharsis for him. I really enjoy the progressive social issues in DA, but as I said, I don't want the LGBT characters to be defined by their sexuality. I think Sera is a good example, as she makes it clear that she is only into women, but that is a small portion of her character. Dorian wants to reform Tevinter and his family doesn't approve of him being gay, that's the majority of his arc. And part of his desire to reform Tevinter stems from the fact that he can't be himself in public.

[Heimdall]

I think this is an issue where people are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think using blood magic to fundamentally change someone as a person is much more horrible than using it to change someone's desire of one person. They're both horrible, but I would rather be made to find one person attractive by force than be made to change my entire sexuality.

If Dorian had been straight and the quest had gone as planned, it seems a bit silly for his father to risk his sole heir being made into a vegetable, when he could have found another girl with the right lineage to see if she would be a more bearable match. His father only resorted to dangerous magic because he thought that there was no other way that Dorian would obey his family obligations and marry. He couldn't find the right girl, because there was no right girl. But a straight!Dorian refusing the choice of fiancee his father provides sounds more like a romantic comedy.

Um, actually part of the reason Dorian gives for being against the whole arranged marriage issue was because he saw that it made his parents miserable. An arranged marriage isn't about finding a girl he might like, it's about political alliances and Tevinter's little Mage eugenics program. Dorian's father isn't understanding partly because what he's asking of Dorian isn't far off from what he himself had to do to ensure the continuation of the house (Politically and in terms of producing an heir).

I know I'm applying real world sexual politics and identity into this, but as it's the source material I think it's valid. Gaider was excited to create the first gay male companion for DA, and part of that, IMO, was catharsis for him. I really enjoy the progressive social issues in DA, but as I said, I don't want the LGBT characters to be defined by their sexuality. I think Sera is a good example, as she makes it clear that she is only into women, but that is a small portion of her character. Dorian wants to reform Tevinter and his family doesn't approve of him being gay, that's the majority of his arc. And part of his desire to reform Tevinter stems from the fact that he can't be himself in public.

His family doesn't approve of him tossing over a thousand years of tradition out the window by refusing to follow the expected path. It's been outright said they would have no problem with him having sex with men as long as he married the girl selected for him and produced little Pavus magelings.

[Iakus]

Dorian: "But what was the first thing you did when your precious heir refused to play pretend for the rest of his life? You tried to change me."

 

Note the tone of the bolded.

 

It's up to interpretation like everything else, but this is very clear to me that Dorian is talking about his father trying to use blood magic to change his sexuality. When we've seen blood magic before used to control a person, it's not presented as fundamentally changing that person, the blood magic is using them like a puppet; the victim still has their own mind, they're just not in control of their body.

 

The way Dorian's father was going, he wanted to actually make a change to Dorian so that he was no longer gay. The quest is all about his sexuality.

 

Changing Dorian to be straight would not have ended his revulsion for the Imperium's practices.  I seriously doubt he'd be any more amenable to being locked in the same cage his parents were if he was into girls.

[vbibbi]

Um, actually part of the reason Dorian gives for being against the whole arranged marriage issue was because he saw that it made his parents miserable. An arranged marriage isn't about finding a girl he might like, it's about political alliances and Tevinter's little Mage eugenics program. Dorian's father isn't understanding partly because what he's asking of Dorian isn't far off from what he himself had to do to ensure the continuation of the house (Politically and in terms of producing an heir).
His family doesn't approve of him tossing over a thousand years of tradition out the window by refusing to follow the expected path. It's been outright said they would have no problem with him having sex with men as long as he married the girl selected for him and produced little Pavus magelings.

"It means every perceived flaw, every aberration is deviant and shameful. It must be hidden." Dorian on Tevinter views of homosexuality and how it has to be covered up by arranged marriages.

 

This is language copied from real life for people's attitudes toward LGBT people. He is not talking about annoying personality quirks, he is talking about how gay people in Tevinter must live a lie in order to fit in.

 

I don't see how this would be exactly the same if he were straight and didn't want to enter an arranged marriage. His family wouldn't "have no problem" with him having sex with men, they would tolerate it as long as they got grandchildren. The kernel of the conflict between Dorian and his family is how keeping up appearances for his family is the same as pretending he's straight. Difficulties in arranged marriages is secondary to this discomfort with his queer identity.

 

Is it completely unrelated that the other known reformer in Tevinter at this time is Maevaris, a transgender woman? Someone else who did not fit societal norms, so is more willing to try to improve things.

 

I feel that a large part of Dorian's rebellious attitude is because he has had to grow up being told to hide his sexuality and pretend to be someone else. Just like a lot of queer teens dye their hair, completely change their outfits, etc. when they come out. They are trying to find their identities and have a much harder time finding role models in society when the "ideal" is to be straight. This to me is why Dorian is so engaged in reforms for Tevinter; he has been on the receiving end of draconian attitudes but has the education and resources to see how the rest of the world treats people like him. A straight person growing up wouldn't have that constant societal pressure to be different or pretend to be straight, which does shape people as they grow.

 

And these allusions to the real world is what makes it feel like an after school special to me. Because the rest of Thedas is much better at accepting queer people, but we have the one country who (apparently) has issue with it, and this is where we get our first male homosexual companion from. They could have had the first gay male character from anywhere that doesn't have issues with homosexuality but chose to make Dorian from a background that conflicts with his sexuality in order to provide drama. Gay gay drama.

[vbibbi]

Changing Dorian to be straight would not have ended his revulsion for the Imperium's practices.  I seriously doubt he'd be any more amenable to being locked in the same cage his parents were if he was into girls.

When one is part of a marginalized group, they can gain an outsider perspective on their society and might be more willing to criticize the society which doesn't favor them. It's all hypothetical, but a straight Dorian might not have as strong an aversion to Tevinter's issues since he grew up wealthy and talented in magic; he was basically the golden boy who could probably do whatever he wanted when he was young. I think it would be a lot more difficult for someone growing up in that situation to criticize the society which allowed him to do what he wanted. I'm not saying that he couldn't still want to reform Tevinter if he were straight, but I do think a person's sexuality does affect their worldview, especially in their formative years.

 

Gender and sexuality is not so simple that we could just swap "him" for "her" in any topic on interpersonal relationships and automatically have the same results.

[Dabrikishaw]

But homosexuals aren't marginalized in Thedas.

[robertthebard]

You are yourself embarrassing even further pal i gave you link to definition of term game over which you have ignored and clearly game over means failure in video game no as you claim finishing it.Pretty much your definition of term game over is baseless and based on your pure imagination and hilariously you insist that it is reality despite i provided clear evidence you are wrong.

 

It is clear that you no idea whatsoever what are talking about , first of all claming scenario where game would have allow you escape from kirkwall would lead to you "you lose" in other words game over is nothing more than inane just because your choice lead you to different scenario in other word ending of the game isn't same thing as game over. Except making different choice is advancing plot, by your logic different endings in video games are losing the game because it leads to the different outcome.  

I don't think you understand:  I can't be embarrassed in this discussion; I've read your opinion on the game, and I've read how you misinterpret things that have been presented in all three, and frankly, that's all I need to know.  You can continue to go on, if you wish, but it's not going to "embarrass" me.  It will, however, amuse me to no end.

 

The events at the end of DA 2 have to happen for the sake of the story.  This is what plot sensitive means.  As I said, they should have totally allowed you to skip plot sensitive stuff, so that they could tell you all about how you lose.  You have no grasp for text, let alone subtext in the story at that point, and yet you insist on trying to further this agenda that nobody knows anything about it but you.  Intelligent people would look at a position and see that several people have pointed out flaws and think to themselves "self, what are they seeing that I'm missing".  Everyone else?  They'll run with something like this:  "It is clear that you no idea whatsoever what are talking about" to cover up their lack of knowledge/understanding about an event.

[Iakus]

When one is part of a marginalized group, they can gain an outsider perspective on their society and might be more willing to criticize the society which doesn't favor them. It's all hypothetical, but a straight Dorian might not have as strong an aversion to Tevinter's issues since he grew up wealthy and talented in magic; he was basically the golden boy who could probably do whatever he wanted when he was young. I think it would be a lot more difficult for someone growing up in that situation to criticize the society which allowed him to do what he wanted. I'm not saying that he couldn't still want to reform Tevinter if he were straight, but I do think a person's sexuality does affect their worldview, especially in their formative years.

 

Gender and sexuality is not so simple that we could just swap "him" for "her" in any topic on interpersonal relationships and automatically have the same results.

While I agree with the sentiment, in this case the matter is much bigger than sexuality.  Frankly, no one in Tevinter cares who he sleeps with as long as he "does his duty" and at least pretends to be happily married.  It's a farce, a sign of the dysfunction of Tevinter's society that he rails against.  One he's already lived (again, see how he talks about his parents)  The blood magic wasn't to make him straight, but to make him willing to accept "his place" in the society he hates.

 

ANd to add insult to injury, the blood magic deal hits him even harder than it normally would.  Not only is his own father trying to change him like this, but it was being done by the very man who taught him that blood magic was the "resort of the weak mind" exposing a man he looked up to as an absolute hypocrite.

[Deanna Troy]

there is no consensus about anything in the uni(multi[omni])verse
but there is the only opinion that matters: inquisition is so awful the franchise shall not have other game, spin off, comic, book or even be mentioned again to prevent the collapse of the continuum

[Deanna Troy]

there is no consensus about anything in the uni(multi[omni])verse
but there is the only%2