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[vbibbi]

But homosexuals aren't marginalized in Thedas.

  

Except in Tevinter.

While I agree with the sentiment, in this case the matter is much bigger than sexuality.  Frankly, no one in Tevinter cares who he sleeps with as long as he "does his duty" and at least pretends to be happily married.  It's a farce, a sign of the dysfunction of Tevinter's society that he rails against.  One he's already lived (again, see how he talks about his parents)  The blood magic wasn't to make him straight, but to make him willing to accept "his place" in the society he hates.
 
ANd to add insult to injury, the blood magic deal hits him even harder than it normally would.  Not only is his own father trying to change him like this, but it was being done by the very man who taught him that blood magic was the "resort of the weak mind" exposing a man he looked up to as an absolute hypocrite.

"In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."

"Sexuality in Thedas" specifies that the one nation in Thedas which sees homosexuality as deviant is Tevinter. And Dorian's dialogue reaffirms that he's considered "deviant and shameful." I don't think it's safe to say no one in Tevinter cares who sleeps with whom, it sounds more like the wealthy can get away with it if they keep it quiet. It's still not accepted/embraced.

[Dabrikishaw]

I don't think you understand:  I can't be embarrassed in this discussion; I've read your opinion on the game, and I've read how you misinterpret things that have been presented in all three, and frankly, that's all I need to know.  You can continue to go on, if you wish, but it's not going to "embarrass" me.  It will, however, amuse me to no end.

 

The events at the end of DA 2 have to happen for the sake of the story.  This is what plot sensitive means.  As I said, they should have totally allowed you to skip plot sensitive stuff, so that they could tell you all about how you lose.  You have no grasp for text, let alone subtext in the story at that point, and yet you insist on trying to further this agenda that nobody knows anything about it but you.  Intelligent people would look at a position and see that several people have pointed out flaws and think to themselves "self, what are they seeing that I'm missing".  Everyone else?  They'll run with something like this:  "It is clear that you no idea whatsoever what are talking about" to cover up their lack of knowledge/understanding about an event.

Come on now. What would justify getting a game over for skipping out on meeting Petrice in Shepherding Wolves? Or not looking for Feynriel in Wayward Son? Or refusing to help Trask in Act of Mercy?

 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing at all would harm the plot of ][ if these quests were skippable.

[Al Foley]

Come on now. What would justify getting a game over for skipping out on meeting Petrice in Shepherding Wolves? Or not looking for Feynriel in Wayward Son? Or refusing to help Trask in Act of Mercy?

 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing at all would harm the plot of ][ if these quests were skippable.

You would have missed out on a hell of a lot of context.  Which context is, I thought, kind of one of the things that was missing in DA Is quests...from many of the posts (including some of my own) that i read here. 

[Dabrikishaw]

You would have missed out on a hell of a lot of context.  Which context is, I thought, kind of one of the things that was missing in DA Is quests...from many of the posts (including some of my own) that i read here. 

That should be up to the player, especially after a first playthrough. Besides, none of the context is really important to understand Acts 2 or 3. It's pretty simple to infer what would happen just from encountering those characters in later Acts.

[robertthebard]

Come on now. What would justify getting a game over for skipping out on meeting Petrice in Shepherding Wolves? Or not looking for Feynriel in Wayward Son? Or refusing to help Trask in Act of Mercy?

 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing at all would harm the plot of ][ if these quests were skippable.

...and yet, that's not the topic of our exchange.  He wants to skip the end of the game, and just leave.  Although, with Petrice, it plays into how you go through the exchange with the Arishock towards the end of Act II.  Whether that's got any plot flags attached to it or not, I couldn't say.

[Dabrikishaw]

...and yet, that's not the topic of our exchange.  He wants to skip the end of the game, and just leave.  Although, with Petrice, it plays into how you go through the exchange with the Arishock towards the end of Act II.  Whether that's got any plot flags attached to it or not, I couldn't say.

Oh. 

[Iakus]

  

Except in Tevinter.


"In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."

"Sexuality in Thedas" specifies that the one nation in Thedas which sees homosexuality as deviant is Tevinter. And Dorian's dialogue reaffirms that he's considered "deviant and shameful." I don't think it's safe to say no one in Tevinter cares who sleeps with whom, it sounds more like the wealthy can get away with it if they keep it quiet. It's still not accepted/embraced.

 

And yet the very next line:

 

Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye

 

It's "selfish and deviant" among nobles in Tevinter because it's not baby-making.  Specifically, mingling the proper bloodlines.  If Dorian agreed to have a kid with a woman of proper breeding stock, it would have been a non-issue 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't think you understand:  I can't be embarrassed in this discussion; I've read your opinion on the game, and I've read how you misinterpret things that have been presented in all three, and frankly, that's all I need to know.  You can continue to go on, if you wish, but it's not going to "embarrass" me.  It will, however, amuse me to no end.

 

The events at the end of DA 2 have to happen for the sake of the story.  This is what plot sensitive means.  As I said, they should have totally allowed you to skip plot sensitive stuff, so that they could tell you all about how you lose.  You have no grasp for text, let alone subtext in the story at that point, and yet you insist on trying to further this agenda that nobody knows anything about it but you.  Intelligent people would look at a position and see that several people have pointed out flaws and think to themselves "self, what are they seeing that I'm missing".  Everyone else?  They'll run with something like this:  "It is clear that you no idea whatsoever what are talking about" to cover up their lack of knowledge/understanding about an event.

 

Of course you can and you are doing that right now with not only your lack of knowledge what term game over means but also insisting that you know better than dictionary what it means. I didn't misinterpreted in first place i just pointed stupidity of the plot that you have problem with comprehension of that and tried rebuff it with "but origins did the same thing" , except it didn't isn't issue on my part.

 

Honey you should keep track of what im saying, writers write story if they have written stupid story that doesn't make sense it isn't my problem it is their problem as it is their job to create coherent and sensible story.Excusing game lacking only sensible option with "skipping plot sensitive stuff" is nothing more than inane (as once again it is devs job to create sensible story) , allowing player to take third option wouldn't be losing the game that is just plain stupid, it would be ending of the game or else choice that ledas to different ending of the game just like chosing to side with mages or templars plain and simple. 

 

Its clear that you have no idea what you talking about for example your mentioned lack of knowledge what terms game over means and insisting otherwise despite being proved wrong with dictionary or excusing stupidity of the plot with the plot ("skipping plot sensitive stuff") so your only strategy here is to make me look bad in what you are failing terribly.  

[Addictress]

It's extremely hard to remain civil when so much is at stake.

[vbibbi]

And yet the very next line:

 

Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye

 

It's "selfish and deviant" among nobles in Tevinter because it's not baby-making.  Specifically, mingling the proper bloodlines.  If Dorian agreed to have a kid with a woman of proper breeding stock, it would have been a non-issue 

This is an issue of interpretation, and one I don't think either side is going to convince the other on.

 

Using the word "deviant" means different from the norm, but in a real world sense it has moral judgement implications. All of the words used in game about homosexuality in Tevinter are negative: deviant, selfish, abberation, shameful. Sexuality in Thedas says that homosexuality is forbidden nowhere, but it doesn't say it's fully accepted or embraced everywhere. Heck, Gamlen can make some homophobic remarks, and he's not in Tevinter.

 

Yes it's bad for nobles if it prevents producing heirs, but I don't think everyone would approve of homosexuality as long as baby making continues. It really sounds to me like it's tolerated at best. I wouldn't be surprised if rival magisters used their opponents' sexuality as a weapon, starting a smear campaign against them if it would be effective.

 

I live in the United States. We have now realized same sex marriage (finally). Homosexuality is no longer forbidden (laws against sodomy) and is in fact legal to gain the same rights as heterosexuals. But I would not classify homosexuality here as openly embraced. Those who are no longer opposed to it often still have the attitude of "it's fine just don't make me see it" or some variation.

 

This is the impression that I have of homosexuality in Tevinter. And the fact that the quest evokes such a discussion loops around to my thought that the quest is about Dorian's homosexuality.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's extremely hard to remain civil when so much is at stake.

Wait are you talking to me , if so im sorry i didn't live up to your standards.

[Al Foley]

It's extremely hard to remain civil when so much is at stake.

Now now you attract more bees with honey then you do with lard...or whatever the expression is.

[Iakus]

Now now you attract more bees with honey then you do with lard...or whatever the expression is.

Vinegar

[Al Foley]

Vinegar

I was close.

[Iakus]

This is an issue of interpretation, and one I don't think either side is going to convince the other on.

 

Using the word "deviant" means different from the norm, but in a real world sense it has moral judgement implications. All of the words used in game about homosexuality in Tevinter are negative: deviant, selfish, abberation, shameful. Sexuality in Thedas says that homosexuality is forbidden nowhere, but it doesn't say it's fully accepted or embraced everywhere. Heck, Gamlen can make some homophobic remarks, and he's not in Tevinter.

 

Yes it's bad for nobles if it prevents producing heirs, but I don't think everyone would approve of homosexuality as long as baby making continues. It really sounds to me like it's tolerated at best. I wouldn't be surprised if rival magisters used their opponents' sexuality as a weapon, starting a smear campaign against them if it would be effective.

 

I live in the United States. We have now realized same sex marriage (finally). Homosexuality is no longer forbidden (laws against sodomy) and is in fact legal to gain the same rights as heterosexuals. But I would not classify homosexuality here as openly embraced. Those who are no longer opposed to it often still have the attitude of "it's fine just don't make me see it" or some variation.

 

This is the impression that I have of homosexuality in Tevinter. And the fact that the quest evokes such a discussion loops around to my thought that the quest is about Dorian's homosexuality.

Even if "tolerated" is as far as it goes, that still renders Dorian's sexuality a moot point.  It's not the issue of his personal quest.  His refusal to go along with Tevinter tradition and their eugenics program is.  

 

That and the man who helped foster Dorian's independent spirit proved willing to crush that spirit with blood magic.

[AFA]

  

Except in Tevinter.


"In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."

"Sexuality in Thedas" specifies that the one nation in Thedas which sees homosexuality as deviant is Tevinter. And Dorian's dialogue reaffirms that he's considered "deviant and shameful." I don't think it's safe to say no one in Tevinter cares who sleeps with whom, it sounds more like the wealthy can get away with it if they keep it quiet. It's still not accepted/embraced.

 

Considering that Fenris mentions the magisters parading their **** boys on chains in public, I'm not sure. Tevinter kind of got retconed from a social darwinist society to social conservatives in DAI. I may be remembering wrong, but the whole noble houses and bloodlines thing didn't come up until DAI. Before that, magical power was all that mattered in Tevinter. Weaker mages got blood magiced into submission, slaves could rise to the top if they had the magic juice to do so. Fenris' sister was a slave on her way to becoming a magister after all. 

[AlanC9]

Considering that Fenris mentions the magisters parading their **** boys on chains in public, I'm not sure. Tevinter kind of got retconed from a social darwinist society to social conservatives in DAI. I may be remembering wrong, but the whole noble houses and bloodlines thing didn't come up until DAI. Before that, magical power was all that mattered in Tevinter. Weaker mages got blood magiced into submission, slaves could rise to the top if they had the magic juice to do so. Fenris' sister was a slave on her way to becoming a magister after all.

That's how all DA lore works. We always find out stuff that we didn't know before about how the societies work. Fenris has one perspective on Tevinter, Dorian has another.

[robertthebard]

That's how all DA lore works. We always find out stuff that we didn't know before about how the societies work. Fenris has one perspective on Tevinter, Dorian has another.

That's not unique to DA though.  It happens everywhere.  One's perspective of an event can be colored by background and a myriad of other factors.  The examples here saw it from completely different ends of the spectrum, one as a slave, one as one that owned slaves.  That's about as far as I want to get into that debate, though.

[AlanC9]

Absolutely. I just meant that in DA it happens by deliberate design.

[ioannisdenton]

Absolutely. I just meant that in DA it happens by deliberate design.

Alan do you like the game in general? where do you stack it?

[AlanC9]

Somewhat below DA:O, a bit better than DA2. So, maybe an 89? 85 or so without the DLC, which improves on DAI in a way that DA:O's DLCs didn't have to. OTOH, JoH really exposed how weak combat encounters in the base game were.

Note that I'm not really a fan of exploration-based CRPGs, but if I'm playing one I accept it for what it is. This might work in DAI's favor, since I probably can't tell a good exploration implementation from a bad one.

[correctamundo]

Exploration in TES is better but OTOH you don't get the same level of character development when it comes to major npcs. You win some and you lose some.

[Al Foley]

Exploration as a driving force of a narrative is something I really, really dislike. 

[ioannisdenton]

Exploration as a driving force of a narrative is something I really, really dislike. 

i agree since exploration becomes obsolete in a second playthrough whereas the narration remains strong.
 

[ioannisdenton]

Somewhat below DA:O, a bit better than DA2. So, maybe an 89? 85 or so without the DLC, which improves on DAI in a way that DA:O's DLCs didn't have to. OTOH, JoH really exposed how weak combat encounters in the base game were.

Note that I'm not really a fan of exploration-based CRPGs, but if I'm playing one I accept it for what it is. This might work in DAI's favor, since I probably can't tell a good exploration implementation from a bad one.

DaO DLC was pretty much mediocre. DaI and Me3 benefit very much from DLC.
'tis only the final moments of these 2 games were severely lacking (see what i did there with "  'tis ")