Questa discussione ha avuto 12 risposte

[sambshep]

Within the Mass Effect universe (not the game itself), how would you rank the difficulty of performing certain biotic abilities? For example, a Singularity probably ranks high as a difficult biotic ability to perform, while something like a Throw might require far less practice. Kaidan mentions in the Citadel DLC how hard he had to work in order to perform Reave and it got me curious on the topic. And why are there so few biotics who use Charge? I suppose we could categorize them in three ways: Novice, Intermediate, Master.

 

Here's my list for single-player biotic abilities:

 

Novice

Throw

Nova

Slam

Shockwave

Barrier

 

Intermediate

Dark Channel

Warp

Pull

Lash

Biotic Charge

 

Master

Singularity

Biotic Protector

Stasis

Dominate

Reave

Flare

[RedCaesar97]

I am tempted to just categorize them by cooldown since that would be the quickest way to determine which ones are "easy" versus which ones are "hard" to learn or use. So I will not do that. However, it does give us a starting point.

 

But first, from the codex:

 

Biotics is the ability of rare individuals to manipulate dark energy and create mass effect fields through the use of electrical impulses from the brain. Intense training and surgically-implanted amplifiers are necessary for a biotic to produce mass effect fields powerful enough for practical use. The relative strength of biotic abilities varies greatly among species and with each individual.

 

There are three branches of biotics. TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects. DISTORTION uses rapidly shifting mass fields to shred objects.

 

 

Now, this was mostly used to describe the biotic abilities you could use in Mass Effect 1, namely: Singularity, Lift, Throw, Warp, Barrier, and Stasis. Mass Effect 2 and 3 expanded on these abilities while sticking with the established lore... somewhat.

 

The following abilities are classified as biotic abilities but do not really fit with the established lore:

• Reave. A distortion field that shreds objects (deals damage to enemies over time) that does fit with the lore, but... can leech health (ME2) or adds damage protection (ME3). Neither of which really makes sense even in the Mass Effect universe.
• Dark Channel. A distortion field that shreds objects (deals damage to enemies over time) that does fit with the lore, but... can 'jump' to another enemy when the first enemy dies. This 'jumping' abliity does not really make sense since biotic fields are not sentient. You could headcannon it that the user is manually moving it, but why such a limited distance (8 meters I recall?). Seems odd.
• Dominate. Classified as a biotic power in ME2; not sure what it is classified as in ME3. Does not fit with any established lore.
• Biotic orbs (ME3 multiplayer). Do not make sense.

 

But getting back on topic, the question about ranking abilities from easiest to hardest to learn appear to be tied to what aspect(s) of biotic abilities are easier or harder to learn. Namely, how would you rank the three biotic branches from the codex -- Telekinesis, kinetic fields, distortion -- from easiest to hardest to learn?

 

In-game, the telekinesis powers -- such as Pull, Throw, or Slam -- tend to have the shortest cooldowns. Exceptions would be Biotic Charge and Shockwave. Thus, it would appear that in the Mass Effect universe, telekinesis powers appear to be easiest to learn or perform, hence the shorter cooldowns.

 

In-game, kinetic fields -- such as Stasis and Barrier -- and distortion -- such as Warp and Reave -- tend to have longer cooldowns. Thus it would appear that in the Mass Effect universe, kinetic fields and distortion abilities appear to be harder to learn or perform, hence the longer cooldowns.

 

But I would also posit another theory: which is easier to perform: an a biotic ability on yourself, or a biotic ability on another person or object? Consider: biotically moving a pencil, biotically moving another person, and biotically moving yourself. Moving a pencil biotically seems seems easier than moving another person, since you would have to generate a larger telekinetic field to move a larger mass. Moving yourself biotically would take about the same biotic energy as it would to move another person of roughly the same mass, but moving yourself would take much more control. Hence, why Biotic Charge -- essentially a telekinesis ability on yourself -- is much harder to perform (and therefore a longer cooldown) than say Throw.

 

 

So to answer your question, if I had to rank the biotic abilities from easiest to hardest:

 

Easiest:

 - Pull

 - Throw

 - Slam

 - Lash

 

Hardest:

 - every other ability

 

 

Nova is in kind of a weird place where it is about expending the biotic barrier around you. It kind of fits the lore, but gameplay-wise it does not have a cooldown where in the Mass Effect universe it most certainly should.

[Heimerdinger]

There are many factors to consider here. Some of the more complex biotic abilities also require specific implants aside from (probably) being more harder to manipulate.

 

Vanguards are outfitted with L5n implants allowing them to use Biotic Charge. Adepts have the L5x implants allowing them to create a micro-singularity. Both are recent state of the art tech. For example, Alenko has the older L2 implants and obviously couldn't create a singularity regardless of skill. L3 implants are widely used, L4 and L5 are experimental and rare.

 

Then there is also the matter of what kind of amplifier (Amp) is installed into the character's implant port. Better amp - more easy to cast a biotic ability.

 

Note that changing/swapping bio-amps is easy, changing implants is complicated and risky as it requires brain surgery.

 

I consider Flare and Dark Channel to be the most difficult. Flare is an ability mastered by Aria T'Loak, one of the most powerful and oldest asari biotics. Dark Channel comes from Javik, obviously the protheans had their own unique mastery and discipline regarding the manipulation of biotics. Although how Shepard can use it without any prothean specific implants is a good question.

[sambshep]

@RedCaesar97

 

Thank you for your thoughts on the subject, however I think there is something you need to consider: cooldowns are simply a means of preventing biotic abilities from being too powerful in the game. For example, pull and throw are probably the weakest biotic abilities in the game, thus they are given short cooldowns, whereas warp and reave which can trigger biotic explosions naturally have longer cooldowns so that the biotic-class isn't too easy. I don't think cooldowns are a good measuring stick for categorizing the difficulty of biotic abilities because cooldowns are a game mechanic and not lore-driven.

 

@Heimerdinger

 

Thank you for your input too. I would like to point out that Shepard was outfitted with the L3 implant in the year 2171 CE and the L5 implant was developed in the year 2184 CE and Shepard was revived in 2185 CE. Shepard could have received an L5 implant during the Lazarus Project, but I don't think it's explicitly (or even implicitly) stated. Besides, the Vanguard class was available before the L5 implant was created. The question is: did Biotic Charge exist before the L5 implant, or could humans simply not perform Biotic Charge without access to the L5 implant? And what makes Biotic Charge so difficult that it would require a different implant? I imagine Biotic Charge is simply the user lowering their mass to charge towards someone and using the "carried" biotic energy to run into the intended target? There's also the discrepancy of how Biotic Charge allows the user to phase through objects when biotics are incapable of such a feat; Biotic Charge only phases through objects to prevent in-game glitches/errors and to allow for smoother gameplay, it is not lore-driven.

 

My logic behind how I categorized biotic abilities is that biotics which are simply a charge and release, such as Shockwave, requires less focus and skill given the nature of the attack. Whereas biotics that are a bit more longer lasting once released requires a bit more finesse. The most difficult of abilities I think are those that are less destructive and more controlling, which I think would require a lot more practice and concentration to master and execute: Singularity and Stasis come to mind.

[RedCaesar97]

 

I would like to point out that Shepard was outfitted with the L3 implant in the year 2171 CE and the L5 implant was developed in the year 2184 CE and Shepard was revived in 2185 CE. Shepard could have received an L5 implant during the Lazarus Project, but I don't think it's explicitly (or even implicitly) stated. Besides, the Vanguard class was available before the L5 implant was created. The question is: did Biotic Charge exist before the L5 implant, or could humans simply not perform Biotic Charge without access to the L5 implant? And what makes Biotic Charge so difficult that it would require a different implant? I imagine Biotic Charge is simply the user lowering their mass to charge towards someone and using the "carried" biotic energy to run into the intended target? There's also the discrepancy of how Biotic Charge allows the user to phase through objects when biotics are incapable of such a feat; Biotic Charge only phases through objects to prevent in-game glitches/errors and to allow for smoother gameplay, it is not lore-driven.

 

My logic behind how I categorized biotic abilities is that biotics which are simply a charge and release, such as Shockwave, requires less focus and skill given the nature of the attack. Whereas biotics that are a bit more longer lasting once released requires a bit more finesse. The most difficult of abilities I think are those that are less destructive and more controlling, which I think would require a lot more practice and concentration to master and execute: Singularity and Stasis come to mind.

 

I don't think biotic implants allow different biotic abilities (this is more of an ME2 character creation thing). The number designation appears to denote the 'generation' of implant. L1 being the first generation of implants, L2 being the second generation, L3 being the third.... 

 

In ME1, Kaidan mentions that L2s spike higher than L3s (except for a biotic Shepard), but L3s are safer. L4s are never mentioned in any of the games. L5 implants are mentioned in ME2 a few times, and are also given a brief mention in ME3.

 

Biotics seem to be dependent on the individual. Implants may play a part; namely if you are outfitted with the implants correctly. For example, you may not be able to properly control your biotics if the implants are not surgically placed at the nodes correctly.

[Rusted Cage]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jack's special Biotic Amp you can unlock in ME2 actually give a direct link to the powers of the individual and the amp used? I forget what it actually says but it mentions "neural degredation" I think.

 

Cut Scene Jack was able to things we haven't seen other human biotics do so maybe the type of implant and the nodes it connects to do play a role in how biotics manifest their powers. For instance, maybe a Vanguard is outfitted with L5n's because that area of their brain which can channel the ability to charge is more developed in them due to their military conditioning? By that reasoning a biotic able to do everything - charge, produce a singularity and what have you - would either have to be fitted with multiple amps or have one big one drawing on different neural pathways simultaneously.

[MichaelN7]

Gameplay-wise, I would say:

 

NOVICE: basic hand motion, "fire and forget"

 

Pull - simple telekinesis, akin to basic levitation.

 

Throw - simple telekinesis, essentially a push from afar.

 

Slam - a combination of Pull and Throw, basically the former in an upward direction followed by the latter in a downward direction.

 

Lash - a unique take on the basic telekinesis; a generally horizontal force applied to destabilize.

 

 

INTERMEDIATE: concentrated thought, deliberate intent

 

Warp - a projectile that continues to damage an enemy, must be composed before release but once launched doesn't need to be "maintained".

 

Shockwave - a self-detonating pulse that continues to travel after initial blast, but doesn't change direction.

 

Barrier - a defense around the body that reduces harm inflicted; must be maintained, but it does one thing and one thing only, therefore simple to apply.

 

Stasis - a blend of Barrier and Pull, in that it reduces damage but also renders immobile, but not quite to the extent of either.

 

Reave - targets the mind, USING the mind, to benefit the body; must travel and translate across different physiology, but is a "switch" ability, you either turn it on or it is off.

 

Warp Ammo - altering the state of ammo to have biotic effects; simple in concept, but has to be constantly applied.

 

 

DIFFICULT: utmost dedication, intense focus

 

Biotic Charge - surround yourself with the same energies that propel starships at FTL speeds, propelling yourself at said FTL speeds; often phasing entirely through solid objects, both living and not.

 - To clarify, this is the same energy that can rip titanium/tungsten composite like tissue paper, and you are literally glowing with the stuff around your comparatively fragile, organic body.

 

Nova - gathering the same energies from Biotic Charge and dispersing them in a 360 degree radius around yourself, draining your barrier and producing collateral damage.

 - To clarify, you somehow need to do this WITHOUT any sort of backlash, otherwise you are detonating your own cells.

 

Dark Channel - almost an advanced Warp; travels between targets and must identify whether friend or foe.

 

Singularity - bring into existence one of the least understood universal phenomenons at will.

 - To clarify, black holes.

 

Flare - expend every iota of mental power into a single manifestation of raw cosmic power.

 - To clarify, supernovas.

 

-------------

 

Lore-wise, it's harder to pin down, because biotics manifest differently among different individuals, and at different "power" levels.  I attempted to use intuitive thinking in my description of the powers.

[Undead Han]

One of the books stated that Singularity was the most difficult biotic ability to master, and an ability that only the most skilled of biotics could use. I think that is the only one that has an official canon difficulty level.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Shepard could have received an L5 implant during the Lazarus Project, but I don't think it's explicitly (or even implicitly) stated. Besides, the Vanguard class was available before the L5 implant was created.

Its stated in the class description for Vangaurd in ME2's CC that the L5n implant is what lets the vangaurd do biotic charge. And Vangaurd Shepard can do biotic charge from then on, but not in ME1. Logical conclusion is that they had an L3 in ME1, as Kaidan states in conversation, and had an L5n in ME 2 & 3 due to Miranda upgrading them in the rebuilding process.

 

I agree with Pull being moved to the novice group. Lift, too. And I think you'd need to learn pull/lift before you learned slam because slam's motion is basically an evolution of the pull/lift motion. Also, Kaidan mentions a "biotic kick" in conversation. I'd assume that's a novice move, too, I think.

[aoibhealfae]

To me, Biotic is just the force without the mind control ability. If you give Vanguard Shepard a lightsaber, you're a Sith Juggernaut/Jedi Guardian while an Adept is just Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage.

 

From the comics, it looked like Kaidan biotic charged at Vyrnnus and accidentally killed him. 

 

Remember that pain increases a biotic ability to spike higher and L2 biotics like Kaidan was considered as powerful as the naturally biotic Asari but the powers came with a cost, nervous damage, insanity, crippling pain etc. Since pain is the primary motivator, I don't think anyone can endure using biotics in such state very long without going flatline or mentally stable.... which is why I suspected that Jack is a modified L2 biotic and the experiment on her was deliberate to determine the limit of what a human biotic can achieve without the confines of ethics and morality (which is away from the need to create safer biotic implants like L3).

 

Adept Shepard is always an anomaly. 

[Belial]

Novice

 

Basic telekinetic, protective and burst powers.

 

Throw

Pull/Lift

Slam

Lash

Barrier

Nova

Shockwave

 

Intermediate

 

Creating and encasing objects within shifting mass effect fields, advanced protective powers and kinetic fields.

 

Warp

Annihilation Field

Dark Channel

Biotic Hammer

Biotic Slash

Warp Ammo

Biotic Focus

Biotic Orbs

Stasis

 

Master

 

More powerful and/or complex powers that involve usage of more than one type of biotic abilities.

 

Biotic Charge

Biotic Sphere

Singularity (though with how underwhelming it is in ME3SP I would put it in novice)

Biotic Protector

Dark Sphere

Seeker Swarm

Poison Strike

Reave

Flare

Dominate (I don't really consider it a biotic power tbh)

 

 

There's also the discrepancy of how Biotic Charge allows the user to phase through objects when biotics are incapable of such a feat; Biotic Charge only phases through objects to prevent in-game glitches/errors and to allow for smoother gameplay, it is not lore-driven.

 

Wrong. Mass Relays, which use mass effect fields, allow objects to phase through matter. Think of the Mako appearing inside the Presidium in ME1. Biotics also use mass effect fields so yeah apparently biotics are capable of "such a feat". Just because it hasn't been mentioned in the codex doesn't mean it's not in the lore.

[Undead Han]

 

Singularity (though with how underwhelming it is in ME3SP I would put it in novice)

 

 

That is an example of gameplay and story segregation. 

 

From solely a lore perspective Singularity is the most god-like biotic power and also the most difficult one to learn and master. Only the very top tier of biotics are able to perform it. It was described that way in one of Drew Karpyshyn's books. It actually makes some sense when you think about it as well, because singularity is the biotic causing a micro black hole. 

 

Sort of related, but that also puts Liara and Kaiden firmly into the ranks of the galaxy's most elite biotics. 

[sambshep]

Wrong. Mass Relays, which use mass effect fields, allow objects to phase through matter. Think of the Mako appearing inside the Presidium in ME1. Biotics also use mass effect fields so yeah apparently biotics are capable of "such a feat". Just because it hasn't been mentioned in the codex doesn't mean it's not in the lore.

Just because the Mass Relays can create a virtually mass-free corridor of space-time between each other, doesn't mean biotics are capable of phasing through objects simply because both use mass effect fields. Because it's a video game, there are going to be a lot of things in it that cannot be explained with lore, and Biotic Charge phasing through objects is one of them.

 

And as for your list, I quite explicitly limited the discussion to within the lore, not the gameplay (i.e. Singularity seeming underwhelming in ME3-SP is irrelevant to the discussion). Thank you for your feedback though.