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#1
Tigress M

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I just finished another playthrough.  This time around I decided to be "daring" and chose some options I hadn't "risked" choosing before.  I do this in every game just so I can see how the writers are going to surprise me.  True to form I was caught off guard by a few things:

 

1.  Cullen resumes taking Lyrium.  Of all the "alternate" choices I made, this one had the least element of surprise.  However, I had to make note of it here because I couldn't help but chuckle when we were presented with the choice a 2nd time.  It took me back to meeting him in the Circle Tower where you have longest argument in Fereldan's history explaining to Cullen why you're going to try and save Irving and the other Mages.  Don't get me wrong, Cullen has completely stolen my heart but Alistair's whining (my first BioWare love so I say that with great affection) had nothin' on Cullen's diatribe in the Tower.  

 

2.  Blackwall rots in jail.  No one comments on this except Leliana and I'm pretty sure she says the same thing if you redeem him or not, which shocked me because Gaider and crew did a much better job with companions reacting to your choices this time around, IMHO.   

 

3.  Iron Bull stays Ben-Hassrath.  

Spoiler

 

4.  Doing Wicked Hearts before Here Lies the Abyss with Alistair as a GW who had done the Dark Ritual in Origins.  The garden dialog I got to overhear was my favorite surprise. It was just one of those touches I didn't even think about wanting to see until I did. 



#2
Dai Grepher

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3. That's because it was an illogical choice. I still expected it though, judging by how poorly Trespasser had been written up until that point.

 

4. I did Wicked Hearts naturally. It seems like the more important plot to tackle, since the assassination could take place at any time, whereas Varric's contact would logically need time to get to Skyhold, and then more time to meet the Warden contact, and then more time to go out to the Western Approach, and yet more time to get an army to Adamant. Plus, moving an army through to Adamant doesn't seem to make sense if Orlais is still in a state of civil war. Also, establishing the outpost in the Approach before assaulting Adamant Fortress is tactically sound.



#3
berelinde

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4.  Doing Wicked Hearts before Here Lies the Abyss with Alistair as a GW who had done the Dark Ritual in Origins.  The garden dialog I got to overhear was my favorite surprise. It was just one of those touches I didn't even think about wanting to see until I did. 

HOW DID YOU GET THAT DIALOGUE TO TRIGGER?

 

Sorry for shouting, but I've been trying to see that conversation forever and I haven't managed it yet. I will be eternally grateful if you tell me!


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#4
MrMrPendragon

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Bull turning on me was a surprise, but I was just so OP at that point that I was more than willing to nuke him with all the burst damage that I could do (as a rogue).

 

Joke's on him though. He worked undercover and helped me kill a LOT of Qunari in the DLC but when he turns on me, he fails anyway.  All those Qunari died for nothing.

 

I also left Blackwall to die. Although I made myself laugh because I kept saying he was a good person when I talked to him in jail, only to end the conversation saying he's a monster and then leaving him to be hanged lol



#5
thats1evildude

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Bull's betrayal was a realistic consequence of your actions. Or inaction, as the case may be.
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#6
Dai Grepher

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Bull's betrayal was a realistic consequence of your actions. Or inaction, as the case may be.

 

Let's see...

 

Ben-Hassrath attacking a proven ally that the Triumvirate values? Check.

 

No word from superiors about any such operation? Check.

 

Ben-Hassrath trying to kill you along with the Inquisitor? Check.

 

Ben-Hassrath using elven magic instead of destroying it as they are supposed to? Check.

 

Communication with superiors cut off? Check.

 

Viddasala violating her role and feeding lyrium to Saarebas? Check.

 

More Ben-Hassrath trying to kill you? Check.

 

Written letter calling for Viddathari to kill you even though you are a loyal member of the Qun? Check.

 

Ben-Hassrath killed a Viddathari who was exposing Viddasala's misconduct? Check.

 

Ben-Hassrath toying around where they should not be, like the Crossroads and Shattered Library? Check.

 

Ben-Hassrather again try to kill you? Check.

 

Bringing in Red Lyrium when the Triumvirate formed an alliance with the Inquisition to keep Red Lyrium from spreading beyond the south? Check.

 

Intercepted letter from the Triumvirate condemning Viddasala's actions, claiming no knowledge of her exploits, and reiterating the value they hold for the alliance with the Inquisition? Check.

 

Allowing the gaatlok recipe to possibly be taken by non-Qunari? Check.

 

So what is Hissrad's choice when this obvious Tal-Vashoth calls on him to kill the Inquisitor? Why, follow her order of course. Yes, a perfectly realistic decision. <_<



#7
thats1evildude

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Let's see...

 

Ben-Hassrath attacking a proven ally that the Triumvirate values? Check.

 

An alliance of convenience that the qunari would happily have dispensed of had the Dragon's Breath plan work.

 

 

No word from superiors about any such operation? Check.

 

That we know of. I find it unlikely that the Viddasala is able to run such a large operation if she was only a "rogue agent." She literally had hundreds of other qunari in multiple countries working for her, both actual qunari and viddathari.

 

 


Ben-Hassrath trying to kill you along with the Inquisitor? Check.

 

Iron Bull's standing orders was to work with the Inquisition, until a superior ordered him otherwise. Had he died along with the Inquisitor, his sacrifice would have been a necessity for the Qun.

 

 


Communication with superiors cut off? Check.

 

And yet, this "rogue agent" seems capable of intercepting messages between the triumverate and Josephine.

 

 

Ben-Hassrath using elven magic instead of destroying it as they are supposed to? Check.

 

A necessity. The qunari are unhappy about most aspects of the Dragon's Breath operation, but it is the only way to defeat the agents of Fen'Harel — who themselves command considerable magic — and bring order to the south.

 

 

Viddasala violating her role and feeding lyrium to Saarebas? Check.

 

Ben-Hassrath toying around where they should not be, like the Crossroads and Shattered Library? Check.

 

Again, a necessity to combat the agents of Fen'Harel and prevent the destruction of the Veil.

 

 


Allowing the gaatlok recipe to possibly be taken by non-Qunari? Check.

 

A partial recipe contingent on leeching poison from a high dragon. Whoop-de-fricking-do.

 

Besides, he attacks you at the point BEFORE you acquire that partial recipe. So that makes perfect sense.



#8
Tigress M

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HOW DID YOU GET THAT DIALOGUE TO TRIGGER?

 

Sorry for shouting, but I've been trying to see that conversation forever and I haven't managed it yet. I will be eternally grateful if you tell me!

 

Specifically, it worked like this for my Playthrough:

 

I went to Crestwood and met Alistair so he winds up back at Skyhold (in the same spot you meet Hawke).  Then, I did Wicked Hearts and got Morrigan.  I believe it was the 2nd time I went to see her in the Garden (mind you I only go speak to folks once per "trip" to Skyhold so I would have spoken to her once, went to another place, and then came back to Skyhold).  Upon entering the Garden,I saw Alistair standing by Morrigan and as I approached the dialog began.  I couldn't talk to them but I could stand there and overhear their conversation, which was oddly moving.



#9
berelinde

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Specifically, it worked like this for my Playthrough:

 

I went to Crestwood and met Alistair so he winds up back at Skyhold (in the same spot you meet Hawke).  Then, I did Wicked Hearts and got Morrigan.  I believe it was the 2nd time I went to see her in the Garden (mind you I only go speak to folks once per "trip" to Skyhold so I would have spoken to her once, went to another place, and then came back to Skyhold).  Upon entering the Garden,I saw Alistair standing by Morrigan and as I approached the dialog began.  I couldn't talk to them but I could stand there and overhear their conversation, which was oddly moving.

Dang it, now I'm going to have to do a playthrough where I do Wicked Hearts first. I wasn't going to do another playthrough. I've done a lot of them... something like 11 or 12 now, I think, all completionist. But I need to hear that dialogue. Better make a worldstate in the Keep with a Hawke I don't care about, because no way am I sacrificing Alistair.



#10
Dai Grepher

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An alliance of convenience that the qunari would happily have dispensed of had the Dragon's Breath plan work.

 

That we know of. I find it unlikely that the Viddasala is able to run such a large operation if she was only a "rogue agent." She literally had hundreds of other qunari in multiple countries working for her, both actual qunari and viddathari.

 

Iron Bull's standing orders was to work with the Inquisition, until a superior ordered him otherwise. Had he died along with the Inquisitor, his sacrifice would have been a necessity for the Qun.

 

And yet, this "rogue agent" seems capable of intercepting messages between the triumverate and Josephine.

 

A necessity. The qunari are unhappy about most aspects of the Dragon's Breath operation, but it is the only way to defeat the agents of Fen'Harel — who themselves command considerable magic — and bring order to the south.

 

Again, a necessity to combat the agents of Fen'Harel and prevent the destruction of the Veil.

 

A partial recipe contingent on leeching poison from a high dragon. Whoop-de-fricking-do.

 

Besides, he attacks you at the point BEFORE you acquire that partial recipe. So that makes perfect sense.

 

But Hissrad doesn't know that, nor that the Qunari wanted to discard it.

 

We know Hissrad did not receive word because then he either would not have been there as an ally, or he would have acted like one until they found the first group of Ben-Hassrath, at which point he would have attacked the Inquisitor. Viddasala was the top "commander" of her division. The only one over her was the Ariqun, who was in Par Vollen. She was a very powerful individual. She was like the Loghain of Trespasser. Lower ranking grunts would follow her orders without a second thought.

 

But if the plan was to kill the Inquisitor, then his superior would have given him the order to do so. In which case, the Ben-Hassrath under Viddasala would have been ordered not to attack Hissrad. Leaving Hissrad in the dark on purpose only causes a loyal Qunari to kill other loyal Qunari. That is wasted life. That makes no sense under the Qun.

 

No, she failed to intercept Josephine's message to the Triumvirate. She only intercepted Hissrad's, and then intercepted the Triumvirate's REPLY to Josephine. This shows that Viddasala was working against the Triumvirate, and was able to get to Hissrad's contacts. But she hadn't anticipated Josephine having connections of her own.

 

Again, Hissrad didn't know that, even if it had been true. And I doubt the Qunari would allow the use of magic portals simply to stage a surprise attack on one target that already had infiltrators anyway. Besides, the other targets didn't have eluvians. Viddasala had to send a few assassins and gaatlok the old fashioned way. So the eluvians were never needed to attack the southern nations. Viddasala was using it as a means of travel between the Library and the Darvaarad. A huge no no under the Qun.

 

Viddasala's notes can be found in the Library. She actually had to reassure her Ben-Hassrath that her commands were consistent with the Qun. Even they began to doubt her when she proposed using Saarebas in some kind of "constructive" way. She was buying into everything she had observed in the Library. A Library full of "demons". No way the Triumvirate signs off on that. If anything, they only would have authorized her to kill Solas, and focus only on him. The Triumvirate also would have informed the Inquisition of Solas' antics and worked with the Inquisitor to stop him. Hissrad would be able to confirm that Solas was acting without the Inquisition's knowledge or approval. Also, Viddasala didn't know that Solas planned to destroy the Veil.

 

The gaatlok recipe is sacred. The DA2 Arishok states that it would be a Qunari's obligation to die defending the recipe if needed. Viddasala just has it out where anyone can see it while the Inquisitor is attacking the stronghold.

 

Now, if Viddasala had given Hissrad the order, and he called her Tal-Vashoth in return, only to have her explain that the gaatlok recipe was over there and that Hissrad must protect the secret, THEN Hissrad attacking the Inquisitor would make some sense. But as it stands, Hissrad didn't know the gaatlock recipe was a few yards away. So his choice doesn't make sense at all.



#11
thats1evildude

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No, you can't turn that around. You can't say "Iron Bull allowing the Inquisitor to get the gaatlok recipe makes no sense" and then say "He didn't know where the gaatlok recipe was, so his attack made no sense."
You don't get to dismiss your own arguments and use mine when they invalidate yours.

The qunari have a complicated relationship with magic. They regard it dangerous and try to contain it, but the qunari still use it.

The partial gaatlok recipe is in the middle of their fortress, protected by dozens of qunari. How more of well-protected can it be?

Iron Bull was under orders to act as an ally to the Inquisitor. He then got an order from a superior. He followed that order. Simple as that.
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#12
Dai Grepher

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No no, I wrote that in the game Hissrad did not know the gaatlok recipe was mere yards away, and Viddasala did not make that known to him. I think she SHOULD have in order to get him to attack the Inquisitor. That would have at least made some sense. But as the game stands, Hissrad didn't know the recipe was in that very room. So he had no reason to attack the Inquisitor. Or are you referring to my statement about Viddasala almost letting the gaatlok recipe fall into bas hands? Yeah, in that case Hissrad would not know that about Viddasala. I'll give you that. However, she still risked the gaatlok itself by moving barrels into place around the palace with no sound way to trigger them. Thus leaving them vulnerable to being procured by bas.

 

They use it as they use gaatlok; in battle. Viddasala was trying to put together some purpose for the saarebas to use magic to strengthen the Veil, which the Triumvirate would not approve of.

 

It could have been on Viddasala's person.

 

Viddasala was not Hissrad's superior. And all the evidence up to that point proved she was acting outside any authority she had anyway.



#13
thats1evildude

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The Triuumverate would not approve of using magic to strengthen the barrier betwen the physical world and the Fade? The land of the dead, which qunari are not allowed to have any contact with whatsoever? The world of spirits, which qunari are so frightened of that they bind their mages like animals?

Viddasala was not Hissrad's superior. And all the evidence up to that point proved she was acting outside any authority she had anyway.

She is the head of one of three arms of the Ben-Hassrath. She is most certainly a superior, if not his commanding officer.

And it seems extremely suspect that the Viddasala is acting without the authority of the Ariqun. She commands a huge number of qunari from the Antaam and the Ben-Hassrath in several countries.

If she's acting independently, then the qunari certainly aren't making any move to stop her.

#14
Dai Grepher

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The Triuumverate would not approve of using magic to strengthen the barrier betwen the physical world and the Fade? The land of the dead, which qunari are not allowed to have any contact with whatsoever? The world of spirits, which qunari are so frightened of that they bind their mages like animals?

She is the head of one of three arms of the Ben-Hassrath. She is most certainly a superior, if not his commanding officer.

And it seems extremely suspect that the Viddasala is acting without the authority of the Ariqun. She commands a huge number of qunari from the Antaam and the Ben-Hassrath in several countries.

If she's acting independently, then the qunari certainly aren't making any move to stop her.

 

No, they wouldn't, because empowering saarebas to do anything with the Veil is a major risk to everyone around. They might blow a hole in the Veil, for example. Or they might explode with Fade energy. The Qunari are perfectly content to keep saarebas suppressed. That is their solution to the Fade and magic.

 

But not Hissrad's arm. It's like a U.S. Army general giving a U.S. Navy private an order after the general has joined ISIS and the President has declared the general a traitor. Besides, even if she had been a superior, and even if she had been legit, Hissrad should have known which way the battle would go and chose to stick with the Inquisition anyway. No one would have known.
 

She commanded a large group to begin with. Her purpose was to find magic and stop it. She took her entire division off the grid. The Triumvirate was unaware of this until Josephine was able to reach them, after which they sent soldiers to stop Viddasala.