109 réponses à ce sujet

[sortiv]

ME1 is a garbage "game." There I said it.

 

Outside of a certain sci-fi atmosphere and the soundtrack there isn't anything worth taking away from that colossal trainwreck of a failed console ARPG.

 

ME2>ME3>ME1

Spoiler

ME3>ME2>ME1 works fine too.

 

Deal with it, nerds.

^ Stupidest post in the thread. 

 

 

I'm not particularly interested in contributing to the "I have nothing to say so I'm going to parrot an existing thread dump" phenomenon (which is not to say that I have not contributed to such things in my juvenile delinquent past) but there are lessons to be learned.

 

Without Mass Effect, there would be no Mass Effect 2. If the first one wasn't an achievement, if it hadn't sparked the magic that carried the series, the series wouldn't exist. Sure, it has flaws, but it's not unlike criticizing the first Star Wars for not having enough busy CGI to distract the viewer from the core concept. Bells and whistles are nice, and they are the staple of sequels, but creative impetus is rarely created in a vacuum.

 

The first Mass Effect presented the most intriguing form of the mystery. There was no retconning. There was no Deus Ex Machina. It was by a huge margin the most intellectual of the three when it came to its science fiction. It presented the best collection of characters in the series (many good ones were added, I acknowledge.) It had the most exploration. It had the least pointless side quests. There were no stupid "resource scanning" mechanics. There was none of ME 3's "no don't explore the planet (a core concept of Mass Effect) just press a button and BAM get the planet's bonuses."

 

Combat could occur at any time, creating a sense of peril. There were no guarantees. The decisions between Paragon and Renegade were not juvenile "good guy-bad guy" choices, but actually challenging quandaries balancing pragmatism with idealism.

 

And... most importantly:

 

 

Make love to the Mako.

 

Your children will be Makon bits.

^ Smartest post in the thread. 

 

/thread

[Helios969]

Take ME 1's concepts of exploration and vehicle use and refine it.   Don't do copy and paste environments and make sure exploration gets rewarded with rich content, throw in some good stories and meaningful loot or crafting materials (if you are going to have a crafting system).

Pretty much nailed it.  The Mako/exploration aspect Bioware is pushing has had me worried since DAI, which after you get past the "damn these environments look good" factor, are pretty lifeless.  If I go through all the bother of exploring environments I expect to be rewarded with good story...using cutscenes dang nabbit.

[fraggle]

Pretty much nailed it.  The Mako/exploration aspect Bioware is pushing has had me worried since DAI, which after you get past the "damn these environments look good" factor, are pretty lifeless.  If I go through all the bother of exploring environments I expect to be rewarded with good story...using cutscenes dang nabbit.

 

I agree. When I first played DAI I was in love with the huge and pretty environments, but that changed quick after my first playthrough. Now I just skip most stuff because it's not relevant anyway. If they include meaningful quests/rewards for MEA, it could be gorgeous. I really hope they don't make exploration as useless as in DAI, but let's see. But if it is the same as DAI I guess I can still enjoy it for its story or characters, like I did with DAI as well.

[In Exile]

In the first place, I'm more inclined to lump ME1 in with the more recent "cinematic" Bioware, which if I remember right was where that tag line first started appearing. I always find it odd when that line is drawn between "old Bioware" usually referring to pre-ME2 or pre-DA2 and "new Bioware".

That line is just when the current crop of Bioware fans started to dislike part of what Bioware offered. Before that it was KoTOR or NWN depending on what camp you were in. Or JE but the game was sadly never popular enough to attract enough ire.

Even DAO was hit quite hard for not being BG2 before we had DA2.

[PhroXenGold]

How not to integrate a story with gameplay that encourages exploration. I've said this in several threads recently, but ME was utterly stupid from this perspective. The main plot implies (and actually outright states at times) that you're in a race against time to stop Saren and you always have a clear lead on where to go. So why would Shep ever go and check our all the unexplored worlds? She should be too busy stopping the bad guys. And if she does go exploring, said bad guys should win.

 

If, as it seems, ME:A will have a heavy exploration theme to the game, it needs to have a story that actually takes said exploration, and the huge amount of time it would take, into account. Do not have a story that implies tight time constraints when a major aspect of your gameplay involves ignoring the story and seeing the sights.

[Helios969]

I agree. When I first played DAI I was in love with the huge and pretty environments, but that changed quick after my first playthrough. Now I just skip most stuff because it's not relevant anyway. If they include meaningful quests/rewards for MEA, it could be gorgeous. I really hope they don't make exploration as useless as in DAI, but let's see. But if it is the same as DAI I guess I can still enjoy it for its story or characters, like I did with DAI as well.

I thought the DA team improved things in Jaws of Hakkon, though not with enough cutscenes.  But it was too little too late...and it only underscored how bland the other areas were.

[PhroXenGold]

That line is just when the current crop of Bioware fans started to dislike part of what Bioware offered. Before that it was KoTOR or NWN depending on what camp you were in. Or JE but the game was sadly never popular enough to attract enough ire.

Even DAO was hit quite hard for not being BG2 before we had DA2.

 

I don't think there is anything even close to being a clear cut division between "old Bioware" and "new Bioware". I've been playing their games since BG1, and while in terms of overall quality, BG2 is unquestionably the highest point for me, in terms of the content and style of games, I can't think of a single one that has differed from its immediate predecessor in the kind of way that would actually make me think that the company had undergone a significant internal change with regards their priorities and the type of games they want to make. Yes there have been changes, and when you add them all up, they're pretty major, but they've been gradual on a game to game basis, and they've been happening since the word go. If you were to go straight from BG1 to ME3, you would think the company had completely changed, but if you go via BG2, NWN, KotOR, JE, ME1, DA:O, ME2, DA2, then it's a simple matter of their style evolving over time through a series of relatively small alterations.

[themikefest]

What can it learn from ME1?

 

Not to put characters in a role that their background doesn't support

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

^ Smartest post in the thread. 

 

I believe internet law requires that I give you a like.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

How not to integrate a story with gameplay that encourages exploration. I've said this in several threads recently, but ME was utterly stupid from this perspective. The main plot implies (and actually outright states at times) that you're in a race against time to stop Saren and you always have a clear lead on where to go. So why would Shep ever go and check our all the unexplored worlds? She should be too busy stopping the bad guys. And if she does go exploring, said bad guys should win.

 

This is a valid point, but it applies to all three games (with the exception of a specific mission trigger in ME 2, and the part about having a clear lead where to go.)

[Vortex13]

I miss Mass Effects biotics. Using lift on a Geth Colossus, and then throw to send it into orbit, or flinging charging Krogan off a cliff...  Forget that stupid Volus meme. ME 1 Shepard was a biotic god.

 

 

Anyway, the biggest thing that I would like Mass Effect: Andromeda to take from Mass Effect would be: Aliens as Aliens.

 

Remember the days when the Hanar, Elcor, and Volus were straight faced attempts at alien life instead of the one dimensional Blasto, Elcor Hamlet, and Biotic god memes? Remember when the Rachni and the Throrian were distinctly 'alien' species with a vastly different perspective on things, instead of being killed off and/or completely ignored in favor of more human and human-like plot points? Even Legion and the elaboration on the Geth in ME 2 were the continuation of ideas laid down in the first game, before all of that character and 'alien' element was cut for the pretentious Pinocchio trope.

 

Bring back the diversity that Mass Effect had, back from before all the aliens in the setting became humans in rubber suits, a cheap joke, or a glorified background prop.

[SNascimento]

Everything they could learn with ME1 they already did, that why Mass Effect 2 was so successful. 

[Sartoz]

                                                                                                   <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Improve the ship's medical bay to spot breat cancer in image-based diagnosis technologies better than pigeons!

 

Yes, pigeons can spot cancerous lumps in images as well as humans:

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0141357

[PhroXenGold]

This is a valid point, but it applies to all three games (with the exception of a specific mission trigger in ME 2, and the part about having a clear lead where to go.)

 

ME2 worked OK actually. For the most part, you lacked a clear lead on how to fight the collectors, so it made sense for you do do other things (provided they contribute overall to preparing for the suicide mission), and there were actually times when you couldn't just ignore the story as events were happening immediately (Horizon and Collector Ship). This is what I would point to as the basis for how things should be - times in the story where it makes sense for you to have freedom, and times when you're forced to act immediately.

 

ME3 was in between - yes, there definitely is are implied time constraints in the story overall, and on individual events, but at the same time, traveling around, gathering strength and resources to fight does make some sense. It also lacks the "going for a joyride on an empty world" stuff that ME1 had, which were utterly unrelated to the plot.

[Ahglock]

I never had a issue with ME1 side quests not fitting the narrative. They can call it a race against time but for most the game it never really is. Yeah you know Saren is up to something but you don't have any reason to believe it's happening tomorrow. Most the leads were sorta leads only virmire was actually solid. Oh like geth attacked this planet maybe it's Saren, hey benezias daughter is on this planet like maybe she knows something etc. weak sauce leads like that with a vague big bad threat isn't something you need to follow exclusively. It's happening some time in the future.

Bad people are planning to do bad things some time in the future yet the law enforcement or intelligence agents tasked to stop them still go on vacation they still go to their child's play or game.

People act like this is a episode of 24 but it's more like a detective story spanning weeks if not months of time.

[Bizantura]

Me1 for me had a "wauw" effect when it came out.

Looking back on it from todays perspective "oeps" terrible idea.

The game is outdated in so many respects but never to be forgotten and worth my replay time every now and again.

 

Like the gameplay and explotion sounds of Me3 the best which drives my neighbor bonkers.

Like Me2 for the individual teammate stories.

 

I rather Bioware learns nothing from anybody.  Bioware should be nothing but themselves.  If I look at the play hours I invest in various games, Bioware is amongst the top tier.

Can't be all bad then, can it!

[Fixers0]

ME1 is  the best game of the series no doubt. ME2 was enjoyable, but it sufferd from a poor narrative. ME3 is all but mediocre.

[Andrew Lucas]

ME1 is a garbage "game." There I said it.
 
Outside of a certain sci-fi atmosphere and the soundtrack there isn't anything worth taking away from that colossal trainwreck of a failed console ARPG.
 
ME2>ME3>ME1

Spoiler

ME3>ME2>ME1 works fine too.

 
Deal with it, nerds.

Okay, you can take your chill pill now.

[Xerxes52]

Minor things:

 

I liked the more detailed orbital view of planets, rather than the "plastic ball" we got in ME2/3.

 

Also I liked having a cursor to navigate the galaxy map (with no fuel or probe limitations) rather than a mini Normandy.

[Il Divo]

I never had a issue with ME1 side quests not fitting the narrative. They can call it a race against time but for most the game it never really is. Yeah you know Saren is up to something but you don't have any reason to believe it's happening tomorrow. Most the leads were sorta leads only virmire was actually solid. Oh like geth attacked this planet maybe it's Saren, hey benezias daughter is on this planet like maybe she knows something etc. weak sauce leads like that with a vague big bad threat isn't something you need to follow exclusively. It's happening some time in the future.

Bad people are planning to do bad things some time in the future yet the law enforcement or intelligence agents tasked to stop them still go on vacation they still go to their child's play or game.

People act like this is a episode of 24 but it's more like a detective story spanning weeks if not months of time.

 

Except the narrative requires Shepard to buy into the idea that it's big and the implications are galactic genocide.

 

Spectre status or no, Saren has the resources of an Asari Matriarch, a Geth fleet, and (at present) has a much better understanding of  how he's going to achieve his goals, far more than we do (beyond the we're all dead bit). We're fumbling in the dark, with a single ship. That doesn't really get hand-waved away by law enforcement vacations. Likewise, in a detective story, the detective doesn't spend months intentionally pursuing other missions that he knows has nothing to do with his main objective, particularly if he has reason to believe that the trail goes cold, which is an issue with any investigation.
 

[Iakus]

What can Bioware learn from ME1?

 

 

How to make a protagonist who's less a Chosen One and more Right Man in the Wrong Place

How to pull hair back into a bun

Combat hardsuits for people who are, you know, going into combat.

Distinctly non-"artistic" endings

There are SIX spokes on the wheel, not two

Neutral dialogue options

Missions that aren't rewarded with an arbitrary addition to an arbitrary number that unlocks a different colored ending option.

Female uniforms/armors that aren't catsuits

[Iakus]

Except the narrative requires Shepard to buy into the idea that it's big and the implications are galactic genocide.

 

Spectre status or no, Saren has the resources of an Asari Matriarch, a Geth fleet, and (at present) has a much better understanding of  how he's going to achieve his goals, far more than we do (beyond the we're all dead bit). We're fumbling in the dark, with a single ship. That doesn't really get hand-waved away by law enforcement vacations. Likewise, in a detective story, the detective doesn't spend months intentionally pursuing other missions that he knows has nothing to do with his main objective, particularly if he has reason to believe that the trail goes cold, which is an issue with any investigation.
 

Sure the implications are "big"  But Anderson tells you straight up:  Saren is in the wind, they have no clue where to find him.  All you've got are three thin leads.  Maybe you can dig up more yourself?

 

ME1 doesn't do a very good job at portraying it, but ME1 takes place over weeks or months.  Plenty of time to do the odd job for Hackett, or run down clues of a geth invasion, or whatever.  And still, you don't have to do any of it.  Any more than you have to gather ram meat in the Hinterlands.

[Il Divo]

Sure the implications are "big"  But Anderson tells you straight up:  Saren is in the wind, they have no clue where to find him.  All you've got are three thin leads.  Maybe you can dig up more yourself?

 

 

 

I'd be all for going the "lone wolf" and pursuing my own leads (could seriously be a lot of fun using the Shadowbroker for that), but that's not Mass Effect's plot as written. Unless the standard for investigation here is "anywhere there's trouble = Saren link", which would be more than a little silly/untenable, there are no leads even remotely as important as either the Geth or Liara.   

 

Even if we did go that route, during how many of these fake investigations do we have the ability to either ask a character about Saren or indicate in some capacity that it's meant to be tied into our goal?

 

 

ME1 doesn't do a very good job at portraying it, but ME1 takes place over weeks or months.  Plenty of time to do the odd job for Hackett, or run down clues of a geth invasion, or whatever.  

 

But not to perform an effective investigation. ME1 takes place over weeks and months, true. But taking place over weeks and months doesn't prevent time being of the essence, when your enemy has the ability to mobilize infinitely more resources than you do, not to mention having a pretty clear picture of what they're trying to accomplish. Putting the meta-game aside, we don't know when Saren is going to strike, only that the longer we delay, the worse our chances, given his massive lead.

 

The "odd job" for Hackett is itself ridiculous for that premise, given how long travel requires in the first place. Also consider, one odd job eventually evolves into a good 7, 8, 10+ jobs, which becomes increasingly more difficult to justify as we find even a single lead on Saren and understand that he is in action with some massive plan.  

 

 

 

 

And still, you don't have to do any of it.  Any more than you have to gather ram meat in the Hinterlands.

 

 

Still, if the counter here is to just not do it, that's a chunky bit of resources which I'd rather be going to other things. People have, as an example, criticized the ram meat quest (and many others) in DA:I on those grounds. Regardless of my unwillingness to engage in ME's side quests, that doesn't make the concept any less non-sensical, from a detective/efficiency stand-point.

[Iakus]

 

 

I'd be all for going the "lone wolf" and pursuing my own leads (could seriously be a lot of fun using the Shadowbroker for that), but that's not Mass Effect's plot as written. Unless the standard for investigation here is "anywhere there's trouble = Saren link", which would be more than a little silly/untenable, there are no leads even remotely as important as either the Geth or Liara.   

 

 

I'd say any of the geth missions are potential leads.  Heck I recall one mission which was specifically an ambush for Shepard by the geth.

 

I'd also call the rachni missions a coda for the Noveria mission

 

 

 

Even if we did go that route, during how many of these fake investigations do we have the ability to either ask a character about Saren or indicate in some capacity that it's meant to be tied into our goal?

But not to perform an effective investigation. ME1 takes place over weeks and months, true. But taking place over weeks and months doesn't prevent time being of the essence, when your enemy has the ability to mobilize infinitely more resources than you do, not to mention having a pretty clear picture of what they're trying to accomplish. Putting the meta-game aside, we don't know when Saren is going to strike, only that the longer we delay, the worse our chances, given his massive lead.

The "odd job" for Hackett is itself ridiculous for that premise, given how long travel requires in the first place. Also consider, one odd job eventually evolves into a good 7, 8, 10+ jobs, which becomes increasingly more difficult to justify as we find even a single lead on Saren and understand that he is in action with some massive plan. 

 

There's actually not a whole lot of dialogue at all in the side missions, true.

 

But again, we don't know time is of the essence.  We don't actually know anything.  Even how big a lead Saren does or doesn't have.  And his movements are limited, given the bulk of his resources are geth, which can't operate freely this side of the Perseus Veil

 

I don't know how many HAckett jobs there are exactly, but I do recall he doesn't send a request unless you are already close by

 

 

[Il Divo]

I'd say any of the geth missions are potential leads.  Heck I recall one mission which was specifically an ambush for Shepard by the geth.

 

 

I'd also call the rachni missions a coda for the Noveria mission

 

 

If I recall correctly, in most/all of these cases, Shepard doesn't actually know about those missions in advance. The Rachni mission (for example) doesn't trigger unless you intentionally enter the system/cluster where they're located.

 

The Geth missions are pretty uncommon, relative to the number of exploration-based missions, but you're right they do count as investigation options. But again as above, many of the quests don't trigger unless we're intentionally looking for them. Even in the context of lead-hunting, it would be pretty insane for Shepard to be doing a system by system search for Saren, when he does have demonstrative leads available, like Noveria/Feros/Therum.

 

 

There's actually not a whole lot of dialogue at all in the side missions, true.

But again, we don't know time is of the essence.  We don't actually know anything.  Even how big a lead Saren does or doesn't have.  And his movements are limited, given the bulk of his resources are geth, which can't operate freely this side of the Perseus Veil

 

 

Do we really not know that time is of the essence in this instance? Let's put aside the Race against Time label (admittedly that would be a meta-game appeal). We know that Saren is after either human extinction/galactic annihilation and we're forced to accept these threats as legitimate. And keep in mind, there is no indicator that any/all of Saren's plans have to be committed in the heart of Council space (Eden Prime, Noveria etc are outside jurisdiction as I recall) or that he would even care about sending the consequences of sending his forces into certain regions of Council space (Feros is one example I believe). We could also reference the evil-genius nature of the Saren/Benezia recordings, that Benezia herself has Asari commandos at her disposal as a Matriarch, and that Anderson tells us about most of these leads at the same time indicating they're occurring concurrently. Whichever way we slice it, we're far behind, not ahead. Mass Effect is a race against time by virtue of the fact that we know Saren has a horrendous plan he is attempting to put into action, without adequate knowledge of the means.  

 

Those factors aside, that still wouldn't be a plausible defense in any instance where investigation is warranted. "We don't know anything" isn't a counter-point, when your primary/overall goal is itself information-retrieval/discovery/galactic extinction prevention, which only gets increasingly more difficult the longer you delay. Investigations don't speed up/get easier as time wears on and in ME's case, we're forced to accept the Reaper annihilation/Saren threat as being extremely dangerous for us.

 

It's a bit like the detective films where they say "we expect the killer to strike again". You may not have an in-detail sketch of the murderer's exact plans, but he's always going to know his own intentions/plans better than you do, increasing the urgency of finding him. Random exploration into the traverse is not the way to do it.

 

I don't know how many HAckett jobs there are exactly, but I do recall he doesn't send a request unless you are already close by

 

 

I indicated this above, but that actually indicates the other massive problem: many of the side-quests themselves hidden until you're in the system. That's not really lead-hunting, that's doing a planet by planet sweep.