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Does anyone else feel bad about not liking Sera?


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#51
vbibbi

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Oddly enough I've been thinking about Zevran in DAO lately. Specifically, that I've always let him live even though he just tried to assassinate you. Is there any justification for doing so that doesn't make the Warden look like an idiot?

Anyway, Sera is great, but she became one of my favorite DA: I characters during the ending feast, when she said she wanted to stay and I told her this was her home and she told me to shut up or else she'd cry and have to punch me.

In general, given how the first 2 DA games went with characters, I thought it was great that at least a few actually decided to stay with the Inquisitor.


Yeah, it can be hard to justify recruiting Zevran. I headcanon that the Warden thinks there might be more information Zevran can provide on Loghain. Plus, being desperate for any support against the Blight, the Warden can't afford to turn down free help. It is the mandate of the Wardens to do whatever it takes to stop a Blight, including conscripting shady characters.
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#52
congokong

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Oddly enough I've been thinking about Zevran in DAO lately. Specifically, that I've always let him live even though he just tried to assassinate you. Is there any justification for doing so that doesn't make the Warden look like an idiot?

No, there isn't. The same goes for Sten. Those two are the most idiotic recruitments IMO in all Dragon Age.


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#53
congokong

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Yeah, it can be hard to justify recruiting Zevran. I headcanon that the Warden thinks there might be more information Zevran can provide on Loghain. Plus, being desperate for any support against the Blight, the Warden can't afford to turn down free help. It is the mandate of the Wardens to do whatever it takes to stop a Blight, including conscripting shady characters.

And when people say this I always remind them of something Solas also happened to emphasize.

 

"An enemy can attack but only an ally can betray you. Betrayal is always worse."


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#54
Aimi

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The only thing is that she didn't just beat him up, she violently killed him in cold blood.


Nothing she did in "The Verchiel March" was cold-blooded. Anyway, you're saying that like he didn't deserve it.

#55
vbibbi

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Nothing she did in "The Verchiel March" was cold-blooded. Anyway, you're saying that like he didn't deserve it.


If she had ignored the IQ standing down and starting a conversation with the guy, attacked the guy so he couldn't talk, then it wouldn't be in cold blood. But by the time she does kill him, it's been a few minutes of conversation. She's not in the heat of battle, there is no way he could physically threaten her at that point, so he could have been taken into captivity rather than executed on the spot.

There's also a difference between "he deserves punishment for his actions" and "I'm okay with him being beaten to death while I watch"
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#56
Aimi

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If she had ignored the IQ standing down and starting a conversation with the guy, attacked the guy so he couldn't talk, then it wouldn't be in cold blood. But by the time she does kill him, it's been a few minutes of conversation. She's not in the heat of battle, there is no way he could physically threaten her at that point, so he could have been taken into captivity rather than executed on the spot.

There's also a difference between "he deserves punishment for his actions" and "I'm okay with him being beaten to death while I watch"


She's obviously not doing anything "in cold blood". As the conversation goes on, she gets progressively more angry that the Inquisitor is even bothering to talk to this douchebag instead of killing him in the middle of the fight like would happen in a normal fight. "Being really agitated about something" doesn't track with "in cold blood" for any sense of either phrase with which I'm familiar.

Besides, it's entirely possible to talk her down and force him into service to the Inquisition. He can be taken into captivity, and you don't have to be okay with him being beaten to death. Hell, she's okay with the Inquisitor doing that, so long as the Inquisitor, y'know, actually does it.
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#57
vbibbi

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Besides, it's entirely possible to talk her down and force him into service to the Inquisition. He can be taken into captivity, and you don't have to be okay with him being beaten to death. Hell, she's okay with the Inquisitor doing that, so long as the Inquisitor, y'know, actually does it.


Right, and I've only let her kill him once. The fact remains that she has the capacity to kill him if we allow her. That there are alternatives doesn't erase her potential violence.

#58
Aimi

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Right, and I've only let her kill him once. The fact remains that she has the capacity to kill him if we allow her. That there are alternatives doesn't erase her potential violence.


Whatever waxes your banister.
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#59
YourFunnyUncle

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Yeah the only person in that scenario trying to kill people in cold blood is the noble luring you and Sera to a remote location and setting an ambush. You can legitimately criticise Sera for violently losing her temper, but she's most certainly not acting in cold blood. Quite the opposite.


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#60
BloodKaiden

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Yeah the only person in that scenario trying to kill people in cold blood is the noble luring you and Sera to a remote location and setting an ambush. You can legitimately criticise Sera for violently losing her temper, but she's most certainly not acting in cold blood. Quite the opposite.


Although in the Noble's case he only assumed Red Jenny would be there and it was in retaliation for her(their) actions. Not saying it was black and white but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Sera doesn't share responsibility for what happened to her "friends". Losing her temper and blaming it all on the Noble is a cop out.
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#61
vbibbi

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Yeah the only person in that scenario trying to kill people in cold blood is the noble luring you and Sera to a remote location and setting an ambush. You can legitimately criticise Sera for violently losing her temper, but she's most certainly not acting in cold blood. Quite the opposite.

Okay, maybe in cold blood is not the term for how Sera is in that scene. But because the noble is plotting in cold blood to kill Red Jenny, it's justified for Sera to in turn violently kill him? I get that in an RPG we're going to be doing a fair amount of killing, and in real life this level of violence would count as an atrocity. But the majority of violence we deal with in DA is self defense or in the heat of battle, where we don't have the luxury of stepping back and finding a non-violent solution. The Skyhold judgements and whether to let Florianne kill Celene or not are the exceptions that prove the rule (and probably why they are some of the best parts of the game).

 

I guess what I meant by in cold blood was that we were no longer in the middle of a fight when we talk to the noble; the fight has ended and there has been a ceasefire while we talk. Yes, Sera is still angry and getting angrier the longer we speak, but it's clearly not self defense when she kills an unarmed man who is surrounded and is in no way a physical threat to her. Yeah, if we let him go he will be a threat again, but obviously we have options to seize his assets or otherwise stop him from being a threat aside from beating him to a pulp. Heck, if she had even just killed him in one clean shot like she did the mage in her recruitment quest, it would be better than "making wine" as the IQ says.

 

It just does not speak well of her that she is capable of such brutality against an unarmed man, regardless of his previous actions. I'm not saying he's not also responsible or shouldn't face punishment, just not straight out cruel execution on the spot. How can we trust Sera won't do the same in the future if she's angry? She has shown that she does not appreciate criticism or differing opinions, and she feels like a loose cannon to me.


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#62
YourFunnyUncle

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Okay, maybe in cold blood is not the term for how Sera is in that scene. But because the noble is plotting in cold blood to kill Red Jenny, it's justified for Sera to in turn violently kill him? I get that in an RPG we're going to be doing a fair amount of killing, and in real life this level of violence would count as an atrocity. But the majority of violence we deal with in DA is self defense or in the heat of battle, where we don't have the luxury of stepping back and finding a non-violent solution. The Skyhold judgements and whether to let Florianne kill Celene or not are the exceptions that prove the rule (and probably why they are some of the best parts of the game).

 

I guess what I meant by in cold blood was that we were no longer in the middle of a fight when we talk to the noble; the fight has ended and there has been a ceasefire while we talk. Yes, Sera is still angry and getting angrier the longer we speak, but it's clearly not self defense when she kills an unarmed man who is surrounded and is in no way a physical threat to her. Yeah, if we let him go he will be a threat again, but obviously we have options to seize his assets or otherwise stop him from being a threat aside from beating him to a pulp. Heck, if she had even just killed him in one clean shot like she did the mage in her recruitment quest, it would be better than "making wine" as the IQ says.

 

It just does not speak well of her that she is capable of such brutality against an unarmed man, regardless of his previous actions. I'm not saying he's not also responsible or shouldn't face punishment, just not straight out cruel execution on the spot. How can we trust Sera won't do the same in the future if she's angry? She has shown that she does not appreciate criticism or differing opinions, and she feels like a loose cannon to me.

Actually I personally don't think it was justified. It shows that she has a short temper and a violent streak, for sure, which is why I said you could legitimately criticise her for losing her temper. 

 

That said, the man represents everything she despises about Theodosian society and is carrying on as though she is irrelevant. He killed her informant, tried to kill her and is now ignoring her to speak to you as he believes himself superior and that you are the only one fit to converse with him. He's playing up to every "noble" trait that she hates. I still don't think her actions are excusable, but I understand them. 

 

In RP terms, though, my Inquisitors all listened to her and used the nobility perk. They've never seen her kill him. If you want to then get meta because you know it's possible for it to happen, or if you let it happen and then choose to kick her out, that's your call. I've only ever seen the scene on YouTube.


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#63
Gwydden

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And when people say this I always remind them of something Solas also happened to emphasize.

 

"An enemy can attack but only an ally can betray you. Betrayal is always worse."

It's true that there is no good reason whatsoever to recruit them. About the only thing that makes sense is roleplaying your Warden as very arrogant, reckless, or naive. However, in what is admittedly a rather meta approach, I almost always recruit them since they are two of my favorite copanions. And my Wardens can in fact be arrogant, reckless, and naive from time to time, so it's not too implausible.

 

As for Sera, I like her just fine. In fact, I like almost the entire companion roster for DAI. Even my least favorite, Solas, isn't there because I dislike him but because I find him rather bland and uninteresting compared to everyone else. I'm not sure what's the source of the dislike for Sera. I guess I can kind of see why others think she's annoying but... not really. Maybe it's just very hard to annoy me?


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#64
Dabrikishaw

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Although in the Noble's case he only assumed Red Jenny would be there and it was in retaliation for her(their) actions. Not saying it was black and white but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Sera doesn't share responsibility for what happened to her "friends". Losing her temper and blaming it all on the Noble is a cop out.

This. The whole quest only happens because Sera wants us to send her Red Jennies in to scare some nobles.  To Lord Pel Harmond, he was only drawing out the people that tried to spook him.



#65
YourFunnyUncle

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This. The whole quest only happens because Sera wants us to send her Red Jennies in to scare some nobles.  To Lord Pel Harmond, he was only attemptng to murder the people that tried to stop him from squabbling for power with another noble while killing innocent peasants with impunity.

Fixed.


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#66
Pensieve

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I have mixed feelings about Sera. In a romance she's absolutely adorable, but when I'm not romancing her she annoys me and I usually end up sending her away.



#67
Ghost Gal

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"This. The whole quest only happens because Sera wants us to send her Red Jennies in to scare some nobles.  To Lord Pel Harmond, he was only attemptng to murder the people that tried to stop him from squabbling for power with another noble while killing innocent peasants with impunity."

 

Fixed.

 

I feel like Sera would come across more sympathetically in her quest if we were shown all the peasants killed and displaced by power-grabbing nobles, instead of only being told through war table text, and then being shown Sera and Red Jennies killing and being killed.


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#68
caradoc2000

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Why would one feel bad about something like this? You don't like her, you don't like her - period.



#69
vbibbi

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I feel like Sera would come across more sympathetically in her quest if we were shown all the peasants killed and displaced by power-grabbing nobles, instead of only being told through war table text, and then being shown Sera and Red Jennies killing and being killed.

Yeah, as it is we never see her interact with any of these small people she's invested in. All we see her do is pranks around Skyhold or the Winter Palace, which is more about making the top look bad than improving things for the lower classes.

Because we don't actually see her interact with her people, it makes her seem like she's more into the idea of the little people than the actual people. She's a Jenny because it lets her beat up nobles, not because she cares about nameless peasants. I'm not saying that's necessarily true, just how it comes across to me in the game.

Also, I get the impression that she was written to be polarizing and that she was intended for a lot of people to dislike her, hence why she is the only companion with the dismiss dialogue option present in her main dialogue wheel for the entire game. I don't like that her character's intention is to want people to kick her out. Unlike, say, Vivienne, whom people easily dislike but will never leave once recruited.
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#70
Ghost Gal

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Yeah, as it is we never see her interact with any of these small people she's invested in. All we see her do is pranks around Skyhold or the Winter Palace, which is more about making the top look bad than improving things for the lower classes.

Because we don't actually see her interact with her people, it makes her seem like she's more into the idea of the little people than the actual people. She's a Jenny because it lets her beat up nobles, not because she cares about nameless peasants. I'm not saying that's necessarily true, just how it comes across to me in the game.

 

I agree so much.

 

That's a huge part of what bothers me about Sera.

 

I'll admit I used to be one of those people who saw her as just painting nobles as convenient targets of her criminal activity with moral impunity, but now that you've mentioned it, this could just be an issue with "show verses tell." 

 

Even the in-game character descriptions acknowledge her as "a selfish criminal." In-game, she often mentions things like, "Fixing the world ought to earn more sovereigns than this. We need things back to normal so I can go play" and "I just want things back into neat little categories" and "Helps me, helps people, helps you, in that order." The game makes it clear that while she does care about "the little people," she's also out to make money and have fun for herself. She enjoys pranking, robbing, and even killing nobles (she does love to "stick people with little arrows"), so given how much we see of that and how little we see of her interacting with the "little people" she claims to care about, it can make it easy to interpret her as someone who just labels all nobles "bad people who victimize little people" so as to give herself moral license to vandalism, rob and kill with impunity. And the Inquisitor can even accuse her as such in-game!

 

If we'd been shown more instances of her interacting with and helping the "little people" she claims to care about all game, there would probably be fewer instances of people (myself included) accusing her of just using the little people as an excuse to rob/kill nobles with moral impunity.

 

Also, I get the impression that she was written to be polarizing and that she was intended for a lot of people to dislike her, hence why she is the only companion with the dismiss dialogue option present in her main dialogue wheel for the entire game. I don't like that her character's intention is to want people to kick her out. Unlike, say, Vivienne, whom people easily dislike but will never leave once recruited.

 

I dunno... I remember the pre-release hype, and in nearly every interview with the devs about the game, whenever they were asked, "Who's your favorite Inquisition character?" or "Who do you think is the funniest character?" or "Which companion do you think players will love most?" they almost always said, "Sera!" (and/or occasionally "Iron Bull.") I got the very strong impression at the time that the devs expected most players to love Sera, and I was expecting to love her too based on how much the devs all seemed to adore her.

 

Imagine my shock and disappointment when not only did she not appeal to me (sorry Sera fans, I find her too childish, hypocritical, judgmental, mean-spirited, and closed-minded), but she wound up being one of the most divisive companions in the fanbase (right beside Vivienne, whom pretty much everyone guessed would be their most hated/beloved based on her demeanor and Circle stance).

 

Now that you've mentioned it though, it is kind of telling that you can dismiss her at any point all game, so... *shrug* Maybe there's just something I missed. Maybe she was meant to be polarizing after all. Who can say?


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#71
S.W.

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I feel like Sera would come across more sympathetically in her quest if we were shown all the peasants killed and displaced by power-grabbing nobles, instead of only being told through war table text, and then being shown Sera and Red Jennies killing and being killed.


I can guarantee that in a quasi-feudal society like Thedas, there will be people in poverty, starving, struggling to make ends meet. I mean, we know that 'poor people exist and hate nobles' from visiting the alienage in DA:O, from talking to various characters in the market (Slim Couldry, or Goldanna if you want a more unpopular example), and the same applies in DA2 - areas such as the slums in Darktown, or even the ramshackle areas in Lowtown, profess that people don't have much.

When there's nobility, there's always poverty. That's... well, it's sort of how a class system just works. If there's an upper class, there's a lower class. Someone needs to produce the wealth that sustains the nobility, and it certainly isn't the nobles. It's usually from ownership of land (peasants tend to crops on those lands, which sell for $$$; also, peasants usually live & pay rent on that land too), and - in the case of a mercantile class - directly profiting off the labour of the people they've employed, who are paid less than the worth of the stuff they make.

I think you're right though - it isn't shown in Inquisition much at all. Partially that's a limit of the Inquisition as an organisation - it's in an isolated ruin in the Frostbacks, far from civilisation itself, and often has little reason to visit typical human settlements which aren't under attack by rifts or mage-templar conflict or venattori/red templar presence. Most of the more cinematic, dialogue-heavy quests take part in the upper echelons of society - the beautifully kept bazaar in Val Royeaux, or the Winter Palace in Halamshiral. There is no such chance to see the urban environments of the poor up close, no chance to talk to them about their lives. I think it's one of the greater failings of DA:I - I would have loved to have explored a sprawling Val Royeaux or walked through the charred remains of the burnt down alienage in Halamshiral, talking to the survivors of the civil war about what occurred. Which perhaps proves Sera right - without her, you wouldn't have someone speaking as part of the 'little people', but then again, you could dispute how much she speaks 'as part of' that group, instead of 'for' that group. It's a shame we are presented with these repulsive nobles - but we don't see, beyond their tasteless extravagance - who they're harming, and how.
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#72
Dabrikishaw

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I feel like Sera would come across more sympathetically in her quest if we were shown all the peasants killed and displaced by power-grabbing nobles, instead of only being told through war table text, and then being shown Sera and Red Jennies killing and being killed.

Most of my Sera dislike has nothing to do with Harmon, but overall I do think it would be easier to like her if she was shown interacting with the common people.



#73
d1ta

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I don't think you should feel bad about not liking NPCs, OP :D

Since we do have our own preferences, likes and dislikes and there is always that saying 'different strokes for different folks' B)
So what if the whole world loves vanilla and I'm the only one that likes chocolate. Should I appologize for not liking peppermint ice cream because i love pistachios? :D

When I first fired up the game I always try to be that goody two shoes who tries her best to get to know and be good to the crew. Total believer in bro-mance here.

Most of the problem I have with Sera is that if you play as an adamant elfy elf-elf, relationship tend to nose dive :D (my experience at least).

And another problem is that the dialogue wheel doesn't really show what the inquisitor is about to say (at least sometimes it doesn't get very clear for me) and I got surprised out of what jumps from my inquisitor's mouth and got even more surprised (sometimes unpleasant) of the response that i get.

So I do what I usually do irl and just avoid the character (why would i want to force myself 'hanging out' with a crowd i don't like). I'd like to say that all of BW's character are well made, well crafted and I do feel happy for those who enjoy Sera's character. But she just wasn't for me (or so I thought)

Fired a couple of games later, idk why I started to miss her XD (maybe because by then I already know which dialogue leads to what and just avoid 'sensitive topics' to avoid 'fights' :D just like I would normally do irl) and finally gets to see her better side.

.. And now it's just difficult not to roll a Dalish and be the big sister dragging her arse all over the place (or maybe I just missed Imoen).
(Warning: headcanon incoming) Like sisters we have our fun times laughing, talk about some stuffs, bake nights and like sisters we too would sometimes argue vehemetly with each other regarding principal matters but then forgets about it in the next day.

My take on Sera anyway.
I know she's crazy.. but thedas is a crazy world :lol:

#74
congokong

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It's true that there is no good reason whatsoever to recruit them. About the only thing that makes sense is roleplaying your Warden as very arrogant, reckless, or naive. However, in what is admittedly a rather meta approach, I almost always recruit them since they are two of my favorite copanions. And my Wardens can in fact be arrogant, reckless, and naive from time to time, so it's not too implausible.

 

I'll never understand people who try to rationalize recruiting companions like Zevran or Sten. It's absolutely idiotic and I'm very disappointed in Bioware for requiring the Warden to be such an idiot to recruit them. If you're meta-gaming the choice, fine. Just don't act like it's sensible.



#75
BloodKaiden

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I'll never understand people who try to rationalize recruiting companions like Zevran or Sten. It's absolutely idiotic and I'm very disappointed in Bioware for requiring the Warden to be such an idiot to recruit them. If you're meta-gaming the choice, fine. Just don't act like it's sensible.


I really never see what the big deal is when it comes to recruiting Sten or Zevran. The world is facing a Blight with only a novice and a senior Warden to put a stop to it. The majority of stuff in DAO didn't make sense and was just a result of the panic over the Blight. Having a badass assassin and powerful Qunari on your side isn't the worse thing you could decide.