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Does anyone else feel bad about not liking Sera?


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#76
dgcatanisiri

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I really never see what the big deal is when it comes to recruiting Sten or Zevran. The world is facing a Blight with only a novice and a senior Warden to put a stop to it. The majority of stuff in DAO didn't make sense and was just a result of the panic over the Blight. Having a badass assassin and powerful Qunari on your side isn't the worse thing you could decide.

 

Though Zevran's proved he's not that GOOD of an assassin at that point, having failed to kill the Warden but that's another reason to keep him close - 'keep your enemies closer' and all that. If he was hired by Loghain and Howe, he could be an asset. It's a tactical decision that you need the hands available to you, considering you've got an entire nation that now sees you as the enemy. If you have someone capable enough to hold their own willing to fight alongside you, are you really in a position to turn them away?


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#77
dgcatanisiri

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Varric, Vivienne and Josephine don't really change either. Just sayin'.

 

Yeah, but there's still a depth allowed to them through what you find out. EVERY. TIME. You speak to Sera, you get something new, a whole new direction for her character to take. Each conversation is the start of a new character path, that proceeds to go no where, because the next time you talk to her, she's on to the next one. It's not that they build on each other and offer new insights, they are literally a character moment that exists almost exclusively in that particular moment you're talking to her, and then are gone the next time you do so.

 

Varric, Vivienne, and Josephine have new layers exposed to show previous actions in a new light - Varric introduces us to Bianca and focuses on Hawke, basically being the player avatar for how we (well, I) feel about Hawke. Josephine's quest ends with her expanding on her past and why she is devoted to peaceful resolutions, furthering the contrast of her and Leliana. Even Vivienne, who is probably the second least developed main character in the game after Sera, has that moment with Bastien when you give her the heart of the snowy wyvern where you see for a moment that she is more than the Iron Lady, that much of her attitude is about projecting an image.

 

Sera, in turn, gets none of that. Or, rather, she gets contradictory versions of that - she's about the little people, no, she's about sticking it to the nobles, she wants to get the world back to normal, no she's just out for whatever fun she can get. She gets these contradictions built into her character with no concern about how they fit. I don't mind characters who are hypocritical, who hold conflicting beliefs. But the fact that when you get the ONE opportunity in the game to call her on it, she shuts you down, and the conversation never comes up again... That's horrible character work, because it's not exposing facets of a character. It's saying 'this character is a hypocrite and has no intentions or inclination to be anything else.'

 

What pains me is that they turned around with Trespasser and tried 'fixing' it. Unfortunately, that feels like too little, too late, mostly because it's development that happens OFF SCREEN. Sera as a character should have gotten this moment where it clicks. Where she gets it. Where she understands that the Inquisitor telling her she's wrong and made a mistake is not a condemnation of her as a person, and that they're still willing to help her. Sera has like four or five starts to character arcs, all of which she deserved, and none of which we actually get to see play out in game.


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#78
BloodKaiden

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Though Zevran's proved he's not that GOOD of an assassin at that point, having failed to kill the Warden but that's another reason to keep him close - 'keep your enemies closer' and all that. If he was hired by Loghain and Howe, he could be an asset. It's a tactical decision that you need the hands available to you, considering you've got an entire nation that now sees you as the enemy. If you have someone capable enough to hold their own willing to fight alongside you, are you really in a position to turn them away?


In Zevran's defense we are the player character and the overall set up of the trap would have likely screwed any other group. Yeah that's what I was saying, I don't see why you would turn away any help against the Blight useless that's just the sort of Warden you are playing were none of your companions can do anything wrong and must be perfect. Nothing wrong with it either way really.

#79
sniper_arrow

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Yeah, but there's still a depth allowed to them through what you find out. EVERY. TIME. You speak to Sera, you get something new, a whole new direction for her character to take. Each conversation is the start of a new character path, that proceeds to go no where, because the next time you talk to her, she's on to the next one. It's not that they build on each other and offer new insights, they are literally a character moment that exists almost exclusively in that particular moment you're talking to her, and then are gone the next time you do so.

 

Varric, Vivienne, and Josephine have new layers exposed to show previous actions in a new light - Varric introduces us to Bianca and focuses on Hawke, basically being the player avatar for how we (well, I) feel about Hawke. Josephine's quest ends with her expanding on her past and why she is devoted to peaceful resolutions, furthering the contrast of her and Leliana. Even Vivienne, who is probably the second least developed main character in the game after Sera, has that moment with Bastien when you give her the heart of the snowy wyvern where you see for a moment that she is more than the Iron Lady, that much of her attitude is about projecting an image.

 

Sera, in turn, gets none of that. Or, rather, she gets contradictory versions of that - she's about the little people, no, she's about sticking it to the nobles, she wants to get the world back to normal, no she's just out for whatever fun she can get. She gets these contradictions built into her character with no concern about how they fit. I don't mind characters who are hypocritical, who hold conflicting beliefs. But the fact that when you get the ONE opportunity in the game to call her on it, she shuts you down, and the conversation never comes up again... That's horrible character work, because it's not exposing facets of a character. It's saying 'this character is a hypocrite and has no intentions or inclination to be anything else.'

 

What pains me is that they turned around with Trespasser and tried 'fixing' it. Unfortunately, that feels like too little, too late, mostly because it's development that happens OFF SCREEN. Sera as a character should have gotten this moment where it clicks. Where she gets it. Where she understands that the Inquisitor telling her she's wrong and made a mistake is not a condemnation of her as a person, and that they're still willing to help her. Sera has like four or five starts to character arcs, all of which she deserved, and none of which we actually get to see play out in game.

 

I thought at the beginning Sera was either crazy or bipolar.


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#80
Silcron

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I don't feel guilty at all. It's not like I have to like every companion and that's fine.

#81
AnimalBoy

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I personally don't see anything wrong with her to begin with. I like her personalty and she's my favorite companion in the game. If only i could romance her.



#82
Carmen_Willow

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She's obviously not doing anything "in cold blood". As the conversation goes on, she gets progressively more angry that the Inquisitor is even bothering to talk to this douchebag instead of killing him in the middle of the fight like would happen in a normal fight. "Being really agitated about something" doesn't track with "in cold blood" for any sense of either phrase with which I'm familiar.

Besides, it's entirely possible to talk her down and force him into service to the Inquisition. He can be taken into captivity, and you don't have to be okay with him being beaten to death. Hell, she's okay with the Inquisitor doing that, so long as the Inquisitor, y'know, actually does it.

Morality aside, you have to question whether it makes sense to have someone on your team who is that unpredictable and rash. In this instance, it doesn't get me or my team killed, but in other circumstances it might. I "control" her through that scene now because I know better, but the first time, her actions-the way she executed him-shocked me. If you were truly building a movement, you would have to consider the political consequences of having someone who acted that way as a member of your "inner circle."  I sometimes refuse Sera's offer and sometimes take her, but we've only gotten to "cookies on the roof" once. (Sten also sits in camp a lot in Origins as does Zevran <I'd take him along more often if I could redistribute his ability points so that he could open stuff.>)


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#83
Dabrikishaw

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Zevran is really the one character I'd love to use more if I could respec him in Origins, but I can't do that on consoles.



#84
ComedicSociopathy

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Yeah, but there's still a depth allowed to them through what you find out. EVERY. TIME. You speak to Sera, you get something new, a whole new direction for her character to take. Each conversation is the start of a new character path, that proceeds to go no where, because the next time you talk to her, she's on to the next one. It's not that they build on each other and offer new insights, they are literally a character moment that exists almost exclusively in that particular moment you're talking to her, and then are gone the next time you do so.

 

Varric, Vivienne, and Josephine have new layers exposed to show previous actions in a new light - Varric introduces us to Bianca and focuses on Hawke, basically being the player avatar for how we (well, I) feel about Hawke. Josephine's quest ends with her expanding on her past and why she is devoted to peaceful resolutions, furthering the contrast of her and Leliana. Even Vivienne, who is probably the second least developed main character in the game after Sera, has that moment with Bastien when you give her the heart of the snowy wyvern where you see for a moment that she is more than the Iron Lady, that much of her attitude is about projecting an image.

 

Sera, in turn, gets none of that. Or, rather, she gets contradictory versions of that - she's about the little people, no, she's about sticking it to the nobles, she wants to get the world back to normal, no she's just out for whatever fun she can get. She gets these contradictions built into her character with no concern about how they fit. I don't mind characters who are hypocritical, who hold conflicting beliefs. But the fact that when you get the ONE opportunity in the game to call her on it, she shuts you down, and the conversation never comes up again... That's horrible character work, because it's not exposing facets of a character. It's saying 'this character is a hypocrite and has no intentions or inclination to be anything else.'

 

I'd argue that these aren't necessarily contradictions, in that a character can believe in helping the little people while at the same time being selfish and wanting have revenge against nobility because of a bad relationship with her mother. Characters can possess moral dissonance where they can genuinely want to do to a good thing and yet can't help themselves in doing another or perhaps having another motive that isn't exactly selfless.

 

Sera's motives are ultimately not straightforward in the least and are wrapped up in personal issues that the narrative doesn't present clearly because it's Sera giving you her backstory and desires, a person who doesn't have the maturity to explain what she wants in an easily understood manner. Take the rooftop scene, which I think does at least present Sera's actions and beliefs in a new light, the whole thing feels ridiculous and out of no where and its supposed to. Sera talks about her relationship with her mother and how she feels betrayed by her lie and why she wants to create new memories to replace the bad old one's. But she doesn't directly tell you that event was the catalyst for her negative attitudes elf culture and the nobility, and neither she she tell you that having friends is an another word for having family in her mind. Probably because she doesn't realize that herself. You have to decipher that out for yourself, which is problematic when the narrative doesn't provide a psychology textbook to help you along. It is frustrating and annoying when compare it to say Cassandra's or Cullen's character arcs. That said, I have to wonder if the Dragon Age writers did it if only to do something different, as kind of experiment. Inquisition has over twelve characters and all them going through the same structure of character development arc of Hints of Backstory/Sidequest/Important Player Choice/Emotional Revelation/Final Friendship Speech would be somewhat tepid so they decided to do something new with a character they call the "Wildcard" in their promotional materiel. 

 

Look at this way, Sera gets angry when you attempt to criticize her methods in Verichel. She greatly disapproves. Two years later in Trespasser if you didn't criticize her methods or still managed to be friends with her, she decides to improve how Red Jennies function. Sera gets angry when you don't agree that the Dalish worship demons. She greatly disapproves. Two years later in Trespasser she gets emotionally tired of bringing up her issues with the elven culture and religion and decides to be at least tolerant and actually be sensitive about the impact that new revelations about your faith can have on a person. 

 

Why is such esoteric character development being used here beside Bioware having the need to do something weird?

 

Maybe because it was showing that most people don't always react well when dealing with something they just experienced? I think that describes Sera quite well. After almost every main quest in the story, "In Your Heart Shall Burn", "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts", "Here Lies the Abyss" and "What Pride Had Wrought", Sera is consistently either angry, frustrated or deflective. In some those occurrences you can try to talk to her about it, but most of time she's deflective or wants to focus on something else. She spends most of time actively avoiding things that bother her and the one of few things she does talk about it likely took years before she could anyone about and even then she told you about it so she could essentially forget it and replace those memories. She's a perfect example of a person using avoidance behavior to deal with anxiety issues. Of course, she eventually is able to express herself and really move past her issues somewhat but like I said it takes years, which is why it took two years after Inquisition to finally understand the need to use actual tactics in her Red Jenny operations and to be tolerant of elven culture. She's slow and frankly kind of stupid, quite young and has bad coping mechanisms.

 

So yeah, it takes time her to actually grow up and develop, time that is unfortunately offscreen that is justifiably annoying, but if I were to be honest having a character didn't rely on the Super Important Only Two Options Player Choice (Iron Bull, Cullen, Leliana and Cole) or the Let Me Listen To Your Self-Doubts To Make You Better Forever (Dorian, Cassandra, Varric, Josephine and sort of Sera) for their character development and instead decides to play the long game is a welcome if disorienting change of pace. Fact is Sera is a young twenty-something that probably wouldn't have all her major emotional issues mostly solved by talking to the Inquisitor during a big adventure that directly picks at side issues. That shite takes an exhausting amount of time. Trust me. 

 

That said, I get having all that growth happen in Trespasser feels somehow cheap and undeserved, but I for one appreciate that Sera was one of the few companions in Trespasser that used to the timeskip to develop on her own. Character growth is still a thing even if it comes at the very end, right. 

 

(f*ck this is long) 


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#85
XEternalXDreamsX

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This playthrough that I am going through is the FIRST playthrough I bring Sera along 100%. Literally, I got enough power to unlock Val Royeaux and recruited her and Vivienne ASAP. Oddly enough, she slightly approves/approves of the small things like recruiting Ritts as an agent and helping the common folk at the crossroads. In all conversations with her, I haven't gotten into disagreements (disapprovals).

But.. I prefer her in doses if she were an IRL person. She disapproves of all my 'major' decision points (templar/mage, Drink Well, Alliance with sentinels, except allying with grey wardens) but some way, we maintain a good relationship which I find makes it easier to like her knowing she has her own point of view yet she still considers Inky her friend.

It took a year to come around to her but I judged her too quickly before hand. Now, if I was Pro-Dalish elf..male or female, we would be at each other's throats though.

I do feel bad never giving her a chance before this, but I am glad I finally played with an open mind to allow her in my party. I'm not saying she's a top tier companion for me, but she is alright if I look at her as a young crazy cousin. Lol.

In the beginning, it is so funny. With the comment of the Inky being from North Wherever. Ooh, we had fun on Street and/or Local tavern. xD I don't remember it exactly but good times.

#86
Ieldra

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I don't like Sera, and I don't feel bad for it. She may have a certain appeal because she's funny, but her crudity and her dislike of anything "elfy" on principle makes her not my type and her wilful ignorance makes her dislikeable. I tried romancing her once, but it didn't work. I couldn't get her approval high enough with the Inquisitor I was playing. So be it, no big thing, I don't have to like everyone.
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#87
vbibbi

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I'd argue that these aren't necessarily contradictions, in that a character can believe in helping the little people while at the same time being selfish and wanting have revenge against nobility because of a bad relationship with her mother. Characters can possess moral dissonance where they can genuinely want to do to a good thing and yet can't help themselves in doing another or perhaps having another motive that isn't exactly selfless.

Sera's motives are ultimately not straightforward in the least and are wrapped up in personal issues that the narrative doesn't present clearly because it's Sera giving you her backstory and desires, a person who doesn't have the maturity to explain what she wants in an easily understood manner. Take the rooftop scene, which I think does at least present Sera's actions and beliefs in a new light, the whole thing feels ridiculous and out of no where and its supposed to. Sera talks about her relationship with her mother and how she feels betrayed by her lie and why she wants to create new memories to replace the bad old one's. But she doesn't directly tell you that event was the catalyst for her negative attitudes elf culture and the nobility, and neither she she tell you that having friends is an another word for having family in her mind. Probably because she doesn't realize that herself. You have to decipher that out for yourself, which is problematic when the narrative doesn't provide a psychology textbook to help you along. It is frustrating and annoying when compare it to say Cassandra's or Cullen's character arcs. That said, I have to wonder if the Dragon Age writers did it if only to do something different, as kind of experiment. Inquisition has over twelve characters and all them going through the same structure of character development arc of Hints of Backstory/Sidequest/Important Player Choice/Emotional Revelation/Final Friendship Speech would be somewhat tepid so they decided to do something new with a character they call the "Wildcard" in their promotional materiel.

Look at this way, Sera gets angry when you attempt to criticize her methods in Verichel. She greatly disapproves. Two years later in Trespasser if you didn't criticize her methods or still managed to be friends with her, she decides to improve how Red Jennies function. Sera gets angry when you don't agree that the Dalish worship demons. She greatly disapproves. Two years later in Trespasser she gets emotionally tired of bringing up her issues with the elven culture and religion and decides to be at least tolerant and actually be sensitive about the impact that new revelations about your faith can have on a person.

Why is such esoteric character development being used here beside Bioware having the need to do something weird?

Maybe because it was showing that most people don't always react well when dealing with something they just experienced? I think that describes Sera quite well. After almost every main quest in the story, "In Your Heart Shall Burn", "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts", "Here Lies the Abyss" and "What Pride Had Wrought", Sera is consistently either angry, frustrated or deflective. In some those occurrences you can try to talk to her about it, but most of time she's deflective or wants to focus on something else. She spends most of time actively avoiding things that bother her and the one of few things she does talk about it likely took years before she could anyone about and even then she told you about it so she could essentially forget it and replace those memories. She's a perfect example of a person using avoidance behavior to deal with anxiety issues. Of course, she eventually is able to express herself and really move past her issues somewhat but like I said it takes years, which is why it took two years after Inquisition to finally understand the need to use actual tactics in her Red Jenny operations and to be tolerant of elven culture. She's slow and frankly kind of stupid, quite young and has bad coping mechanisms.

So yeah, it takes time her to actually grow up and develop, time that is unfortunately offscreen that is justifiably annoying, but if I were to be honest having a character didn't rely on the Super Important Only Two Options Player Choice (Iron Bull, Cullen, Leliana and Cole) or the Let Me Listen To Your Self-Doubts To Make You Better Forever (Dorian, Cassandra, Varric, Josephine and sort of Sera) for their character development and instead decides to play the long game is a welcome if disorienting change of pace. Fact is Sera is a young twenty-something that probably wouldn't have all her major emotional issues mostly solved by talking to the Inquisitor during a big adventure that directly picks at side issues. That shite takes an exhausting amount of time. Trust me.

That said, I get having all that growth happen in Trespasser feels somehow cheap and undeserved, but I for one appreciate that Sera was one of the few companions in Trespasser that used to the timeskip to develop on her own. Character growth is still a thing even if it comes at the very end, right.

(f*ck this is long)


I appreciate the analysis and close look at her development, but I am doubtful that the devs undertook such a careful NPC progression. If for no other reason, that claiming the majority of Sera's development occurs in Trespasser is hindsight and would not have been how Bio planned her character arc. It's not reasonable to say they had her character arc planned to carry over into an epilogue DLC which depended on sales numbers from the base game to be created.

I also just don't put that much faith in Bio's writing. I think the Trespasser change was a response to feedback that Sera never changed in the base game, so they decided to make her a little less narrow minded. I don't think their plan from the beginning was to have her mature off screen.
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#88
vbibbi

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In the beginning, it is so funny. With the comment of the Inky being from North Wherever. Ooh, we had fun on Street and/or Local tavern. xD I don't remember it exactly but good times.


I don't know if it was the voice acting or what, but I got the sense that Sera didn't appreciate the IQ continuing the joke. She seems to only like joking if she's the one saying the joke, and can't take it if she becomes the target (in a friendly way). This speaks to her immaturity, to me.

#89
ComedicSociopathy

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I appreciate the analysis and close look at her development, but I am doubtful that the devs undertook such a careful NPC progression. If for no other reason, that claiming the majority of Sera's development occurs in Trespasser is hindsight and would not have been how Bio planned her character arc. It's not reasonable to say they had her character arc planned to carry over into an epilogue DLC which depended on sales numbers from the base game to be created.

I also just don't put that much faith in Bio's writing. I think the Trespasser change was a response to feedback that Sera never changed in the base game, so they decided to make her a little less narrow minded. I don't think their plan from the beginning was to have her mature off screen.

 

Vivienne also never really changes in the main game and she also was widely disliked for it, and yet none of her negative feedback resulted in her getting off screen development of any kind or a change in her views. And it's not as Bioware was completely ignorant of the fact that having a character that hates elven culture and and magic in general wouldn't be a character that wouldn't be disliked.

 

Trespasser seems to be a DLC they planned from the very beginning, it's to important to have not have been with the setup of the Qunari-Tevinter War, Solas's plan, the crippling of the Inquisition and loss of the Anchor. I have to imagine that writers knew that they'd get the timeskip and Sera's decided to use as way to build her character in way they thought would make more sense for a character like Sera. 



#90
Dabrikishaw

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Vivienne not changing may have more to do with Bioware's plan to have her restart the Circle, so she couldn't change in any real way. Sera has no such plot relevance.



#91
ComedicSociopathy

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Vivienne not changing may have more to do with Bioware's plan to have her restart the Circle, so she couldn't change in any real way. Sera has no such plot relevance.

 

No one else could of restarted the Circles? In the original endings Vivienne didn't even help directly form them if she isn't Divine. And really there's a difference between becomingly suddenly Pro-mage and be being able to not actively hate and sabotage the idea of the College and mage freedom. 



#92
XEternalXDreamsX

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I don't know if it was the voice acting or what, but I got the sense that Sera didn't appreciate the IQ continuing the joke. She seems to only like joking if she's the one saying the joke, and can't take it if she becomes the target (in a friendly way). This speaks to her immaturity, to me.


She didn't like the Inky joking about it but I felt I needed to mess with her like she does everyone else. She is immature, no doubt. That character trait put her dead last on every character roster except this playthrough. People with a open mind and not to mention, a VERY high tolerance for immaturity, close-minded individuals, and crude humor are likely able to like her.. IMO, of course.
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#93
Dabrikishaw

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No one else could of restarted the Circles? 

Not according to Bioware.



#94
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Not according to Bioware.


With Cass as Divine, doesn't Vivienne lead the Circles in some fashion? With Vivienne as Divine, doesn't she reinstate the Templars and Circles under her control regardless of the Mage/Templar conflict? With Leliana as Divine, doesn't Vivienne rebuild the Circles anyway under her discretion? The only way it happens differently is if she is not recruited and an unknown group reinstate the Circle anyways (maybe unknowingly by Vivienne anyway )? Maybe I need to refresh myself though. It seems that Bioware didn't want to write themselves into a corner so they allowed the circles and college to exist regardless of decisions for future installments to give themselves wiggle room. Of course, my memory isn't that great.

#95
Dabrikishaw

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Yes to all of that.



#96
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People's compassion towards Lord Pel Harmond is astounding.

Maker bless his generous soul.

#97
XEternalXDreamsX

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People's compassion towards Lord Pel Harmond is astounding.

Maker bless his generous soul.


She wasted him on my first PT. I like to use all the investigate options, but she wasn't having that. I was so surprised the first time.. All I could say was, Ooh snap. Since he doesn't become an agent and the nobility perk doesn't really matter in the end...Unless I want to be diplomatic and take his land, I tell her to kill him. Maker bless his soul.

#98
sniper_arrow

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I think for Sera and Vivienne, these are the characters who wants the PC to accept them for who they are and not willing to change (until Trespasser). It does happen in real life (I encountered a few). 

 

In the previous games, we're used to having almost all companions agreeing to what we say and do to change their attitudes and outlook in life. With Sera and Vivienne, it was more like defying change and not being readily agreeable with our decisions. It can be frustrating at times.

 

Don't be surprised if DA4 will continue the trend of making extreme and polarizing characters to get people talking.  



#99
sniper_arrow

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No one else could of restarted the Circles? In the original endings Vivienne didn't even help directly form them if she isn't Divine. And really there's a difference between becomingly suddenly Pro-mage and be being able to not actively hate and sabotage the idea of the College and mage freedom. 

 

I think the original plan was to abolish the Circles, but Bioware may have decided to backtrack it. 



#100
XEternalXDreamsX

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I think for Sera and Vivienne, these are the characters who wants the PC to accept them for who they are and not willing to change (until Trespasser). It does happen in real life (I encountered a few).

In the previous games, we're used to having almost all companions agreeing to what we say and do to change their attitudes and outlook in life. With Sera and Vivienne, it was more like defying change and not being readily agreeable with our decisions. It can be frustrating at times.

Don't be surprised if DA4 will continue the trend of making extreme and polarizing characters to get people talking.


I agree, and I'm all for the trend to continue if they reflect different views for the ongoing issues. It really helped in molding my main party around my PC'S views by having three party members that worked as a cohesive unit that were mostly on the same page as far as beliefs and outlooks.