183 réponses à ce sujet

[YourFunnyUncle]

This is one things that always confuses me about Sera. She grew up in the Denerim alienage. When, during that time, would she encounter enough Dalish to be constantly told by them that she's not a real elf? It's also contradicted by her cookie story: she grew up hating all things elven, including herself, because of what her stepmother did. I don't understand why she has hatred for the Dalish other than it's just an extension of her general elf-hating. Which, based on the cookie conversation, is recognized by her as a bad thing and maybe not something she should harp on constantly. Yet, she regresses after Mythal and is back to hating all thing elfy because...elfy.

She did not grow up solely in Denerim Alienage. She was there for a short while as an infant but also grew up with lady Emmald and then on the streets. There's no suggestion that she moved back to the Alienage after leaving her step-mother.

And don't forget that she got all the way to Val Royeaux. She's better travelled than you give her credit for. Also, I don't think it's just the Dalish who poked fun at her. It's never explicitly stated but it seems reasonable to me that after leaving Emmald's household, she may well have been scorned by other City Elves as more human than elf, due to her time being raised as a human's daughter. So she was told that the baker hated her because she was an elf, and then other elves hate her because she's too human. She struggles for a place to fit in, and finds refuge with the Jennies, as the only group who just accept her as she is. Even that place is hardly a stable environment with people coming and going and moving on.

[Ghost Gal]

Not all, but most of the people I see who dislike her never actually got to know her because they were put off from the start. Almost everyone I've encountered who has actually played through her relationship comes around to appreciating her. 

 

That's funny, because what I've seen is that most people who like Sera just assume that people who don't like her just didn't bother to get to know her (like they think she's so inherently likable that the other person must have just not gotten that cookie scene or the romance scenes or else they'd adore her), but from what I've seen a good many people who dislike Sera did try to get to know her, did try to raise her approval, did romance her, did do whatever, and still didn't like what they saw.

 

I personally spent the entire first playthrough trying to understand her point of view and be supportive and diplomatic even when she constantly badmouthed my people, and in the end she still tried to force my Dalish Inquisitor to renounce her religion/culture, then acted like I was the intolerant bigot for refusing to blindly agree with her, even though she was trying to force me to see things her way and never the other way around.

 

I also saw her ultimatum to a Dalish Inquisitor girlfriend, and saw red. A Dalish Inquisitor can be the perfect girlfriend who always agrees with her, goes with her whims, gives her her way, and endures her badmouthing the Dalish, and in the end Sera will still try to force her to renounce her religion/culture. And do so in a very emotionally manipulative way. Like, "If you loved me, you'd say the elven religion/culture is all false. If you don't, then you're just an intolerant bigot like the rest; you just don't accept me or love me like the rest." But again, Sera is the one who is being bigoted and intolerant by trying to force you to see things her way; Sera is the one who is not accepting you for who you are since she's trying to force you to change then dumps you for being "too elfy" when you won't. Even if you never tried to push the Elvhen religion or culture on her or tried to agree to disagree, it's not good enough for Sera; you have to change into something she finds acceptable, or she'll dump you, all while acting like you're the one not accepting her.

 

And that's why I don't like Sera. Plenty of people did get to know her and still didn't like her, but ironically getting to know Sera more is what made me hate her more. I just can't stand what a selfish, immature, hypocritical, intolerant little bigot she is.

 

(And don't give me that, "Well, other Dalish/city elves mocked her for not being 'elfy' enough..." BOO HOO. A) This is Thedas. Everyone has a tragic backstory of being rejected or not fitting in, and plenty of them find the means to understand or accept others. B ) THE DALISH INQUISITOR (POTENTIALLY) DIDN'T DO IT! Sera is punishing you for other elves' treatment of her, and I frankly don't appreciate it. Even if you're the most supportive, open-minded, encouraging friend or girlfriend, Sera still shows that she won't accept you or respect your differences, but still tries to emotionally manipulate and twist it around so you're the bad guy for not changing for her, and I don't ****** have time for it.)

 

I don't think Sera DOESN'T care about the little people, I think she cares about them in a very immature and selfish way. She reminds me of the stereotype of a young political activist who is more interested in the attention and outrage they can generate than actually following through on their cause.

 

Yeah, I think it helps that Sera's in-file character description describes her as a "selfish criminal" who "robs the rich, keeps it." In-game Sera makes it clear that she enjoys being with the Red Jennies for self-gain as much, if not more than, social gain. As she tells the Inquisitor at different points, "Fixing the world ought to earn more sovereigns than this. We need things back to normal so I can go play." And "[Stopping Corypheus] Helps me, helps people, helps you. In that order."

[akbogert]

That's funny, because what I've seen is that most people who like Sera just assume that people who don't like her just didn't bother to get to know her (like they think she's so inherently likable that the other person must have just not gotten that cookie scene or the romance scenes or else they'd adore her), but from what I've seen a good many people who dislike Sera did try to get to know her, did try to raise her approval, did romance her, did do whatever, and still didn't like what they saw.

 

You and I simply have had quite different experiences, then (in and out of game). I simply have seen far too many people admitting to having avoided unnecessary interaction with her (e.g., never brought her along, kicked her out early, never saw the cookie scene, never romanced her) also saying that they hated her, and have noted that there's a lot about the character one will never see if one does not seriously try to get to know her. I've never had her break up with me regardless of our differences, which I guess means I've never been a devout Dalish (I've been agnostic, Andrastian, and atheist). 

 

Anyway, as I've said several times, not everyone is going to like her. 

[YourFunnyUncle]

You and I simply have had quite different experiences, then (in and out of game). I simply have seen far too many people admitting to having avoided unnecessary interaction with her (e.g., never brought her along, kicked her out early, never saw the cookie scene, never romanced her) also saying that they hated her, and have noted that there's a lot about the character one will never see if one does not seriously try to get to know her. I've never had her break up with me regardless of our differences, which I guess means I've never been a devout Dalish (I've been agnostic, Andrastian, and atheist). 

 

Anyway, as I've said several times, not everyone is going to like her. 

 

I think that you're right in that more of those who don't like her simply dismiss her early on and that's it, however a significant sub-group of those who dislike her are very pro-Dalish players like Shiara who can't get past her anti-elven stance and the ultimatum scene. As a long-time poster in the Sera thread I've encountered both. I've some sympathy for Shiara's views, as I'm rather fond of the Dalish myself, but I can't agree with them fully.

[vbibbi]

I think that you're right in that more of those who don't like her simply dismiss her early on and that's it, however a significant sub-group of those who dislike her are very pro-Dalish players like Shiara who can't get past her anti-elven stance and the ultimatum scene. As a long-time poster in the Sera thread I've encountered both. I've some sympathy for Shiara's views, as I'm rather fond of the Dalish myself, but I can't agree with them fully.

Eh, I think that's simplifying the dislike. I don't think someone needs to be pro-Dalish to think that her ultimatum is a bad thing. For me, it would be like someone I love and have been dating for some time and have never tried to convert to my way of thinking has a ideological crisis and demands that I abandon my beliefs/faith in favor of theirs. It doesn't matter the belief system or faith, it's still not a positive character trait to demand someone give up their personal beliefs for their sake because their still-developing world view is being challenged. Is it realistic? Sure, and I don't begrudge her for acting in character here. It's just not a personality trait I find admirable in a friend or lover and makes me enjoy her less as a character. I don't think forcing someone to give up their beliefs is healthy or fair in an equal relationship.

 

Now, if she had later come back after calming down and took back what she said, fine. It was a heat of the moment thing and she doesn't actually want a partner to abandon their beliefs for her. But it apparently takes her two years to relax on Dalish issues (I haven't played Trespasser as Dalish).

[vbibbi]

Yeah, I think it helps that Sera's in-file character description describes her as a "selfish criminal" who "robs the rich, keeps it." In-game Sera makes it clear that she enjoys being with the Red Jennies for self-gain as much, if not more than, social gain. As she tells the Inquisitor at different points, "Fixing the world ought to earn more sovereigns than this. We need things back to normal so I can go play." And "[Stopping Corypheus] Helps me, helps people, helps you. In that order."

 

Wow I haven't seen these files before. Do you know if they were all included in the base game, or was this datamined after Trespasser? I ask because it would be interesting to know if the details of Trespasser were already planned when the base game came out.

[Vit246]

The thing about Sera and the Dalish that gets to me is that..... isn't she doing the same thing she hates the Dalish for? She hates any elf (dalish and city) that has a preconceived idea of how elfy they should be, and at the same time, she also has an idea of how elfy they should be, which is to be not elfy at all and preferably Andrastian humanish, or maybe even an uneducated british chav like her. Any elf that does not meet her standards on elfyness deserves her ricidule and shaming for not being the right kind of elf, which is to pretend you are "just people". What kind of nonsense is that?

[berelinde]

Eh, I think that's simplifying the dislike. I don't think someone needs to be pro-Dalish to think that her ultimatum is a bad thing. For me, it would be like someone I love and have been dating for some time and have never tried to convert to my way of thinking has a ideological crisis and demands that I abandon my beliefs/faith in favor of theirs. It doesn't matter the belief system or faith, it's still not a positive character trait to demand someone give up their personal beliefs for their sake because their still-developing world view is being challenged. Is it realistic? Sure, and I don't begrudge her for acting in character here. It's just not a personality trait I find admirable in a friend or lover and makes me enjoy her less as a character. I don't think forcing someone to give up their beliefs is healthy or fair in an equal relationship.

 

Now, if she had later come back after calming down and took back what she said, fine. It was a heat of the moment thing and she doesn't actually want a partner to abandon their beliefs for her. But it apparently takes her two years to relax on Dalish issues (I haven't played Trespasser as Dalish).

She can't take back what she said, even if she would like to. It takes a lot of maturity to admit you're wrong, and Sera isn't there yet. She's probably crying about it (in private) and knows that it's her fault, but she's going to blame the Inquisitor anyway because it's easier.

 

I guess the real question is whether the Inquisitor is able to make these sacrifices to make the relationship work. That's a question everyone has to answer for themselves.

 

For what it's worth, I like Sera. I like her very much, in fact, even if I don't romance her. But then again, I consider glossing over a character's faults or pretending they don't exist to be as much of a disservice as inventing faults out of spite.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Eh, I think that's simplifying the dislike. I don't think someone needs to be pro-Dalish to think that her ultimatum is a bad thing. For me, it would be like someone I love and have been dating for some time and have never tried to convert to my way of thinking has a ideological crisis and demands that I abandon my beliefs/faith in favor of theirs. It doesn't matter the belief system or faith, it's still not a positive character trait to demand someone give up their personal beliefs for their sake because their still-developing world view is being challenged. Is it realistic? Sure, and I don't begrudge her for acting in character here. It's just not a personality trait I find admirable in a friend or lover and makes me enjoy her less as a character. I don't think forcing someone to give up their beliefs is healthy or fair in an equal relationship.

 

Now, if she had later come back after calming down and took back what she said, fine. It was a heat of the moment thing and she doesn't actually want a partner to abandon their beliefs for her. But it apparently takes her two years to relax on Dalish issues (I haven't played Trespasser as Dalish).

Oh it's a simplification, sure. Those are the two most vociferous camps that I've seen, but they don't represent everyone.

 

I have to say that if you're RP-ing as a devout Dalish, why would such a person even attempt a relationship with someone so openly opposed to their culture and not expect serious friction? My Lavellan was on the road to giving up on the creators, so she worked well with Sera. By the time of the ultimatum, she didn't agree with Sera that they were demons, but neither did she consider them gods, so she let it slide.

 

I always thought (and said often on the forums) that what Sera needed in order to mellow was time in an accepting and relatively stable environment - two things she never before had concurrently and found with the Inquisition -  and Trespasser proved me more or less right. You won't win her over by argument but she will learn to modify her views with experience. She is genuinely concerned about how her lover (and I assume her friend if you took that path) will react to the revelations about the Elven gods.

 

Spoiler

[vbibbi]

Oh it's a simplification, sure. Those are the two most vociferous camps that I've seen, but they don't represent everyone.

 

I have to say that if you're RP-ing as a devout Dalish, why would such a person even attempt a relationship with someone so openly opposed to their culture and not expect serious friction? My Lavellan was on the road to giving up on the creators, so she worked well with Sera. By the time of the ultimatum, she didn't agree with Sera that they were demons, but neither did she consider them gods, so she let it slide.

 

I always thought (and said often on the forums) that what Sera needed in order to mellow was time in an accepting and relatively stable environment - two things she never before had concurrently and found with the Inquisition -  and Trespasser proved me more or less right. You won't win her over by argument but she will learn to modify her views with experience. She is genuinely concerned about how her lover (and I assume her friend if you took that path) will react to the revelations about the Elven gods.

 

Spoiler

True, and perhaps part of people's dislike stems from the fact that they're used to playing as any background and being able to successfully romance a companion. I think the outrage over Alistair dumping non-Couslands speaks to this. As a sidenote, I normally play as a Trevelyan, so I'm not personally invested in Sera's relationship with a Dalish PC, and you're right that someone playing as a devout Dalish shouldn't be surprised at tension. But I would assume people playing that way would not have expected an ultimatum over their faith. Or didn't think about it too hard and just said "I want to play as an elf and I want to romance Sera."

 

It's all a matter of taste. I enjoy Sera as a friend but could not see myself ever romancing someone like her in real life. There are too many aspects to her that I can't overlook or wait for her to gain maturity. But she is fun in small doses!

[YourFunnyUncle]

It's all a matter of taste. I enjoy Sera as a friend but could not see myself ever romancing someone like her in real life. There are too many aspects to her that I can't overlook or wait for her to gain maturity. But she is fun in small doses!

Oh I very much doubt that I could either. That's why RPGs are there!

[ThePhoenixKing]

I also saw her ultimatum to a Dalish Inquisitor girlfriend, and saw red. A Dalish Inquisitor can be the perfect girlfriend who always agrees with her, goes with her whims, gives her her way, and endures her badmouthing the Dalish, and in the end Sera will still try to force her to renounce her religion/culture. And do so in a very emotionally manipulative way. Like, "If you loved me, you'd say the elven religion/culture is all false. If you don't, then you're just an intolerant bigot like the rest; you just don't accept me or love me like the rest." But again, Sera is the one who is being bigoted and intolerant by trying to force you to see things her way; Sera is the one who is not accepting you for who you are since she's trying to force you to change then dumps you for being "too elfy" when you won't. Even if you never tried to push the Elvhen religion or culture on her or tried to agree to disagree, it's not good enough for Sera; you have to change into something she finds acceptable, or she'll dump you, all while acting like you're the one not accepting her.

 

And that's why I don't like Sera. Plenty of people did get to know her and still didn't like her, but ironically getting to know Sera more is what made me hate her more. I just can't stand what a selfish, immature, hypocritical, intolerant little bigot she is.

 

And that's really what, for me, makes Sera the worst companion of all time, that emotionally abusive BS that she hoists on you that we're simply supposed to accept. And as much as I hate to be that guy, it needs to be said: if Sera was a straight male, there wouldn't be any debate about this whatsoever. Everyone and their grandmother would be willing to call it what it is (emotional abuse) and demand the character's head, and rightly so. You don't give the people you love ultimatiums like that. Period. You accept them for who they are, and be willing to accept that you're not always going to have identical positions on every single issue.

[berelinde]

And that's really what, for me, makes Sera the worst companion of all time, that emotionally abusive BS that she hoists on you that we're simply supposed to accept. And as much as I hate to be that guy, it needs to be said: if Sera was a straight male, there wouldn't be any debate about this whatsoever. Everyone and their grandmother would be willing to call it what it is (emotional abuse) and demand the character's head, and rightly so. You don't give the people you love ultimatiums like that. Period. You accept them for who they are, and be willing to accept that you're not always going to have identical positions on every single issue.

A straight male did put forth an ultimatum, of a sort, and lots of people did demand to flay him alive for it: Alistair. If he's in a romance with anyone who isn't a human noble and if he's made king, he will dump his lover. If he's hardened, he can be persuaded to accept a commoner mistress, but it takes a good deal of coercion, and it's a long way from "happily ever after."

 

So yay, equality? Or maybe not. It's still the female protagonists who have to put up with the BS, and I am still not convinced that they would ever write a straight female LI who rejects a male protagonist who doesn't agree with her beliefs.

[Jaison1986]

A straight male did put forth an ultimatum, of a sort, and lots of people did demand to flay him alive for it: Alistair. If he's in a romance with anyone who isn't a human noble and if he's made king, he will dump his lover. If he's hardened, he can be persuaded to accept a commoner mistress, but it takes a good deal of coercion, and it's a long way from "happily ever after."

 

So yay, equality? Or maybe not. It's still the female protagonists who have to put up with the BS, and I am still not convinced that they would ever write a straight female LI who rejects a male protagonist who doesn't agree with her beliefs.

 

Well, there is Morrigan who gives a ultimatum if you don't give in and accept her ritual. Male Shepard also needs to endure a lot of complaining and whining from Ashley in ME3 before she finally takes a chill pill.

[berelinde]

Well, there is Morrigan who gives a ultimatum if you don't give in and accept her ritual. Male Shepard also needs to endure a lot of complaining and whining from Ashley in ME3 before she finally takes a chill pill.

Yes, Morrigan is offering an ultimatum, but there is a world of difference between "Hey, sleep with me and it will save your life" and "You will never be palatable to human nobles, so I have to end our relationship." She is offering the PC the opportunity to sleep with her, a thing most Morrigan romancers are only too happy to do anyway. Nothing the PC who romances Alistair can do will ever make her a human noble if she isn't one, so let's not pretend those choices are even remotely similar.

 

Edit: And you're really not have much success trying to convince Alistair romancers that the Dark Ritual is a difficult sacrifice that Morrigan romancers must make. After all, Alistair romancers have to coerce their lover into sleeping with Morrigan in order for both of them to survive. The fact that the Dark Ritual cutscene plays out - complete with romance track music - is almost comically insensitive.

Modifié par berelinde, 30 novembre 2015 - 05:39 .

[DarkAmaranth1966]

That's funny, because what I've seen is that most people who like Sera just assume that people who don't like her just didn't bother to get to know her (like they think she's so inherently likable that the other person must have just not gotten that cookie scene or the romance scenes or else they'd adore her), but from what I've seen a good many people who dislike Sera did try to get to know her, did try to raise her approval, did romance her, did do whatever, and still didn't like what they saw.

 

I personally spent the entire first playthrough trying to understand her point of view and be supportive and diplomatic even when she constantly badmouthed my people, and in the end she still tried to force my Dalish Inquisitor to renounce her religion/culture, then acted like I was the intolerant bigot for refusing to blindly agree with her, even though she was trying to force me to see things her way and never the other way around.

 

I also saw her ultimatum to a Dalish Inquisitor girlfriend, and saw red. A Dalish Inquisitor can be the perfect girlfriend who always agrees with her, goes with her whims, gives her her way, and endures her badmouthing the Dalish, and in the end Sera will still try to force her to renounce her religion/culture. And do so in a very emotionally manipulative way. Like, "If you loved me, you'd say the elven religion/culture is all false. If you don't, then you're just an intolerant bigot like the rest; you just don't accept me or love me like the rest." But again, Sera is the one who is being bigoted and intolerant by trying to force you to see things her way; Sera is the one who is not accepting you for who you are since she's trying to force you to change then dumps you for being "too elfy" when you won't. Even if you never tried to push the Elvhen religion or culture on her or tried to agree to disagree, it's not good enough for Sera; you have to change into something she finds acceptable, or she'll dump you, all while acting like you're the one not accepting her.

 

And that's why I don't like Sera. Plenty of people did get to know her and still didn't like her, but ironically getting to know Sera more is what made me hate her more. I just can't stand what a selfish, immature, hypocritical, intolerant little bigot she is.

 

(And don't give me that, "Well, other Dalish/city elves mocked her for not being 'elfy' enough..." BOO HOO. A) This is Thedas. Everyone has a tragic backstory of being rejected or not fitting in, and plenty of them find the means to understand or accept others. B ) THE DALISH INQUISITOR (POTENTIALLY) DIDN'T DO IT! Sera is punishing you for other elves' treatment of her, and I frankly don't appreciate it. Even if you're the most supportive, open-minded, encouraging friend or girlfriend, Sera still shows that she won't accept you or respect your differences, but still tries to emotionally manipulate and twist it around so you're the bad guy for not changing for her, and I don't ****** have time for it.)

 

 

Yeah, I think it helps that Sera's in-file character description describes her as a "selfish criminal" who "robs the rich, keeps it." In-game Sera makes it clear that she enjoys being with the Red Jennies for self-gain as much, if not more than, social gain. As she tells the Inquisitor at different points, "Fixing the world ought to earn more sovereigns than this. We need things back to normal so I can go play." And "[Stopping Corypheus] Helps me, helps people, helps you. In that order."

I agree, every time I say I hate Sera, I get accused of trolling or, not getting to know her but, I have tried with her, and the more I know her, the more I hate her.

 

At fist she was simply stupid and annoying, but then when I tried to romance her, she became a narrow minded bigot on top of already being stupid and annoying, and she added extremely selfish to the list. She might think her comments are just poking fun at others but, to me they are showing her stupidity and insulting others without cause.

 

She's the person that will say and do things that annoy you and hurt your feelings badly then laugh and tell you that she was just joking around. Well, that isn't one bit funny to me in life or in a game. I've banned people like that from my life. I refuse to tolerate someone saying "You're a stupid good for nothing!..Oh haha just kidding." and think that "just kidding" bit makes it all okay no matter how hurtful they were. Now I either don't recruit her at all or, I get her just to get Pel Harmond as an agent, then kick her out.

 

I do recruit Vivienne even though I dislike her, I respect her and, she is doing what she must to advance in life, to gain power. Sera has no desire to be more than a thief and a killer who's only reason for killing you is that you're a noble. I'm surprised she didn't try to off my human Inquisitors before they could get rid of her - they are nobles that would fit with Sera.

 

Actually wish she would try just so I could kill her instead of just kicking her out.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

A straight male did put forth an ultimatum, of a sort, and lots of people did demand to flay him alive for it: Alistair. If he's in a romance with anyone who isn't a human noble and if he's made king, he will dump his lover. If he's hardened, he can be persuaded to accept a commoner mistress, but it takes a good deal of coercion, and it's a long way from "happily ever after."

So yay, equality? Or maybe not. It's still the female protagonists who have to put up with the BS, and I am still not convinced that they would ever write a straight female LI who rejects a male protagonist who doesn't agree with her beliefs.

For DAI, the straight male LIs both believe in the Maker, Andraste, and the premise of the Chantry. I found it odd that Cassandra doesn't challenge his beliefs if he is Dalish, Qunari, or Dwarven (that follows their national religion) while he is in a romance but then again, Cass seems to accept them as they are. Honestly, if DA4 has an attractive (subjective) female and a sweet personality that challenges my guy's beliefs.. he will drop it all for her. It just depends on how she goes about it and her alternative beliefs, we live one time and they love each other, go for it. IRL, I know it's not that simple, that's a whole different situation to me.

[sniper_arrow]

One thing struck me about Sera is that the writers seem to almost capture of what the common folk think and act during those days. For them, it was all about surviving and not thinking of other things that don't interest them. They don't have access to education or a stable environment. 

 

But does these mean it excuses Sera? Not really. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I won't deny that Sera is well written and well acted for who she is supposed to be. She polarizes the player community we love her or hate her, no one simply tolerates Sera and blows off her selfish bigotry. They either hate her for it or defend her as if she were their only child. That's a well done character to do that to us.

[DarkSun09]

I hated her in my first playthrough. F*cking racist little tw@t.

 

...then I threw away all my assumptions about who she is, how she should behave and think, and just see her for the goofy, dumb overgrown child that she is, and suddenly, liking her isn't so hard at all. Did you know that if you make fun of her and call her stupid at certain points, she likes you for it? I got a kick out of that. So yeah... I used to hate her, but now she's like that dumb little sister I never had, but am kinda fond of.

[vbibbi]

I hated her in my first playthrough. F*cking racist little tw@t.

 

...then I threw away all my assumptions about who she is, how she should behave and think, and just see her for the goofy, dumb overgrown child that she is, and suddenly, liking her isn't so hard at all. Did you know that if you make fun of her and call her stupid at certain points, she likes you for it? I got a kick out of that. So yeah... I used to hate her, but now she's like that dumb little sister I never had, but am kinda fond of.

O rly? I must not have tried all of the dialogue options on her, because the few times I did try to joke with her or make fun of her (in a friendly way) she stayed neutral to me and seemed annoyed. I always feel like I have to tiptoe around her to be friends with her, because she gains disapproval a lot easier than approval.

 

As a result of this thread, I went to the wiki and looked up some of her banter. I'd never taken her with Varric before, since there's no real combat reason to do so. It made me kind of sad that she automatically treats him like a rich noble and is fairly rude to him, but luckily Varric is magnanimous enough to accept the jabs with grace. Varric is in no way a favorite character, and I think he was wasted in DAI, but I do like the guy and it felt a bit like seeing the group's nice guy get verbally attacked by the angry friend because the angry friend knows they won't get any pushback.

 

I enjoy Sera, but I have to be very selective in what I say, how I act, and whom I bring along in order to do so.

[MoonDrummer]

Nah, I'd have liked to have her executed to score points with the nobility. 

[AlanC9]

So yay, equality? Or maybe not. It's still the female protagonists who have to put up with the BS, and I am still not convinced that they would ever write a straight female LI who rejects a male protagonist who doesn't agree with her beliefs.

Well, except in the sense that you might never pass the approval gate to even start the romance. They've done that before and will do it again.

[CronoDragoon]

Yeah, it can be hard to justify recruiting Zevran. I headcanon that the Warden thinks there might be more information Zevran can provide on Loghain. Plus, being desperate for any support against the Blight, the Warden can't afford to turn down free help. It is the mandate of the Wardens to do whatever it takes to stop a Blight, including conscripting shady characters.

Yeah, but all that sort of takes as true what Zevran is saying about not trying to kill you anymore. As you say, the Warden at this point isn't exactly highly organized; I mean look at the camp! It wouldn't be out of the question for even a chained Zevran to find a way to assassinate the Warden in his or her sleep.

And maybe Zevran could assassinate Loghain if you want to take the huge risk of believing him, but he's not very much help against the Blight.

Hmm, all this is making me think of doing another DAO playthrough where the Warden is a hardcore consequentialist. Haven't done one yet. Ideally I'd like to incorporate killing Leliana into it since I love the conversation you have with her in Inquisition about the Warden if you do ("There are no heroes in this world."). But I'm not sure what my motivation would be for choosing the Cult over the Ashes in that scenario.

[vbibbi]

Yeah, but all that sort of takes as true what Zevran is saying about not trying to kill you anymore. As you say, the Warden at this point isn't exactly highly organized; I mean look at the camp! It wouldn't be out of the question for even a chained Zevran to find a way to assassinate the Warden in his or her sleep.

And maybe Zevran could assassinate Loghain if you want to take the huge risk of believing him, but he's not very much help against the Blight.

Hmm, all this is making me think of doing another DAO playthrough where the Warden is a hardcore consequentialist. Haven't done one yet. Ideally I'd like to incorporate killing Leliana into it since I love the conversation you have with her in Inquisition about the Warden if you do ("There are no heroes in this world."). But I'm not sure what my motivation would be for choosing the Cult over the Ashes in that scenario.

I wonder if Zevran's introduction was drafted when the idea of making companions go through the Joining was still on the table. I could see in typical Bioware fashion if we had the option when recruiting Zevran to A) Join us without becoming a Gray Warden, or B.) Force him to undergo the Joining to ensure his loyalty (we could tell him Wardens can sense each other and would track him down if he flees, or else the rest of the Order would if he managed to kills us). Plus, it's an escape clause from the Crows, which we discover is what he wants.

 

Of course, then in typically typical Bioware fashion, if we chose the "paragon" option, he would later be infected by the Taint anyway and have to go through the Joining. But if we had done the "renegade" pragmatic approach, we would have to have extremely high approval with him so that he doesn't turn on us later, resentful of conscripting him.