183 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

The thing about Sera and the Dalish that gets to me is that..... isn't she doing the same thing she hates the Dalish for? She hates any elf (dalish and city) that has a preconceived idea of how elfy they should be, and at the same time, she also has an idea of how elfy they should be, which is to be not elfy at all and preferably Andrastian humanish, or maybe even an uneducated british chav like her. Any elf that does not meet her standards on elfyness deserves her ricidule and shaming for not being the right kind of elf, which is to pretend you are "just people". What kind of nonsense is that?

Sera is against elves being elfy, which includes elves telling her how to live (by being elfy), and so that makes Sera also telling them how to live? That feels like circular reasoning. That's like telling a culture to stop oppressing others would be oppressing that culture. Elfy elves are naturally intolerant of elves that don't follow their views (ex: Sera), but she can't be intolerant to that view in turn without being a hypocrite? You can't be so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance.

 

Sera has great issues with elfy elves which aren't always completely rationale, but it's not without merit. I know I wanted to punch Solas when he said Sera was "the farthest from what she's supposed to be." That's incredibly insulting. It's no wonder that she has such a bias towards elfy elves. I'm not defending her dalish romance ultimatum as that goes too far. I just feel she's a bit more accepting that others give her credit for. She really doesn't care if you're andrastian or whatever, and won't even give an ultimatum outside of a dalish romance, which says more about her elfy issues rather than intolerance to those who don't think as she does. There actually seems to be some sort of fear there that I can't understand. Thing is, people on this thread seem to cling to this one hypothetical scenario that most players won't even come across as a large motivation for hating her. As noted, characters like Morrigan do something similar, and with her it's unavoidable.

[Ghost Gal]

Eh, I think that's simplifying the dislike. I don't think someone needs to be pro-Dalish to think that her ultimatum is a bad thing. For me, it would be like someone I love and have been dating for some time and have never tried to convert to my way of thinking has a ideological crisis and demands that I abandon my beliefs/faith in favor of theirs. It doesn't matter the belief system or faith, it's still not a positive character trait to demand someone give up their personal beliefs for their sake because their still-developing world view is being challenged. Is it realistic? Sure, and I don't begrudge her for acting in character here. It's just not a personality trait I find admirable in a friend or lover and makes me enjoy her less as a character. I don't think forcing someone to give up their beliefs is healthy or fair in an equal relationship.

 

Now, if she had later come back after calming down and took back what she said, fine. It was a heat of the moment thing and she doesn't actually want a partner to abandon their beliefs for her. But it apparently takes her two years to relax on Dalish issues (I haven't played Trespasser as Dalish).

 

Thank you, you explained what I was trying to say better than I could have said it.

 

The thing about Sera and the Dalish that gets to me is that..... isn't she doing the same thing she hates the Dalish for? She hates any elf (dalish and city) that has a preconceived idea of how elfy they should be, and at the same time, she also has an idea of how elfy they should be, which is to be not elfy at all and preferably Andrastian humanish, or maybe even an uneducated british chav like her. Any elf that does not meet her standards on elfyness deserves her ricidule and shaming for not being the right kind of elf, which is to pretend you are "just people". What kind of nonsense is that?

 

I agree, and that's pretty much my main beef about Sera's "anti-elfiness."

[Tidus]

I kinda like Sera..She's refreshing in some ways and not your average Elf..

[In Exile]

Thank you, you explained what I was trying to say better than I could have said it.


I agree, and that's pretty much my main beef about Sera's "anti-elfiness."

I think people are perfectly entitled to not want to have anything to do with a culture, and its bizarre to dislike then for it. An ultimatum is weird because it's silly - why would you think people would abandon their beliefs?

The Dalish protagonist who cares about this stuff isn't being different from Sera - she's just being more polite.

[ComedicSociopathy]

O rly? I must not have tried all of the dialogue options on her, because the few times I did try to joke with her or make fun of her (in a friendly way) she stayed neutral to me and seemed annoyed. I always feel like I have to tiptoe around her to be friends with her, because she gains disapproval a lot easier than approval.

 

After the Temple of Mythal you can actually call her stupid at one point and she'll give you approval over it. 

[vbibbi]

After the Temple of Mythal you can actually call her stupid at one point and she'll give you approval over it. 

Wow, that's great! I'm too worried about being BFFs with all of my companions to intentionally try the harsh dialogue options

[Qun00]

I kinda like Sera..She's refreshing in some ways and not your average Elf..

She subverts the elf stereotype as a whole. One would expect Sera to be like the city elves at least, but she doesn't hold a grudge against humans or dwell on self-pity like they do.

I think people are perfectly entitled to not want to have anything to do with a culture, and its bizarre to dislike then for it. An ultimatum is weird because it's silly - why would you think people would abandon their beliefs?
The Dalish protagonist who cares about this stuff isn't being different from Sera - she's just being more polite.

I wouldn't say that. The Dalish Inquisitor doesn't ask Sera to believe.

[In Exile]

I wouldn't say that. The Dalish Inquisitor doesn't ask Sera to believe.

She asks Sera to abandon her (non)-belief. All the time. Take the Temple of Mythal as an example. Sera says they're all demons. The counter to that is that they aren't - and might well have been actual gods - but this is an either/or position. Even asking someone to be agnostic - when they're not - is asking them to change their mind.

[Qun00]

Arguing isn't demanding. A demand would be the way Sera's romance ends.

[dgcatanisiri]

She asks Sera to abandon her (non)-belief. All the time. Take the Temple of Mythal as an example. Sera says they're all demons. The counter to that is that they aren't - and might well have been actual gods - but this is an either/or position. Even asking someone to be agnostic - when they're not - is asking them to change their mind.

 

Except the Temple of Mythal is literally the ONLY place in the entire game that we never encounter demons. At most, what Abelas says implies that the ancient elven gods were mortals. ELVEN mortals. Not demons. Calling it demon worship is literally demonizing the elven pantheon pretty much for the purpose of laughing in their face. So there IS an alternative to 'truth' or 'demon worshiping.' That the elven gods were people who have been deified over the following millennia. There's a way to resolve this that isn't 'either you believe my way or you're wrong.'

 

And all the Inquisitor does is suggest that SOMETHING there may have been true, even if it's been twisted over time. And Sera refuses - she's the one saying it's all or nothing. That what happened at the Temple of Mythal proves that the elven gods are bullshit and the Maker is the truth. Which is still not the case - one being wrong doesn't automatically make the other right, either.

 

This is a matter with a lot in between black and white, either/or. But that's all Sera's accepting.

[Jaison1986]

Except the Temple of Mythal is literally the ONLY place in the entire game that we never encounter demons. At most, what Abelas says implies that the ancient elven gods were mortals. ELVEN mortals. Not demons. Calling it demon worship is literally demonizing the elven pantheon pretty much for the purpose of laughing in their face. So there IS an alternative to 'truth' or 'demon worshiping.' That the elven gods were people who have been deified over the following millennia. There's a way to resolve this that isn't 'either you belief my way or you're wrong.'

 

And all the Inquisitor does is suggest that SOMETHING there may have been true, even if it's been twisted over time. And Sera refuses - she's the one saying it's all or nothing. That what happened at the Temple of Mythal proves that the elven gods are bullshit and the Maker is the truth. Which is still not the case - one being wrong doesn't automatically make the other right, either.

 

This is a matter with a lot in between black and white, either/or. But that's all Sera's accepting.

 

You know, we can punch Solas and Dorian in the game. That scene with Sera mocking the temple of Mythal totally should have given us a star option to punch Sera as an dalish Inquisitor. She was totally asking for it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why on Earth would I feel bad about not liking someone? There is a reason why I don't like them after all... Not that I don't like Sera..

[Ghost Gal]

I think people are perfectly entitled to not want to have anything to do with a culture, and its bizarre to dislike then for it. An ultimatum is weird because it's silly - why would you think people would abandon their beliefs?

The Dalish protagonist who cares about this stuff isn't being different from Sera - she's just being more polite.

 

I never said Sera had to like elfiness or want to be part of the elven culture.

 

What I dislike is how intolerant and hypocritical she is about it.

 

Intolerant because Sera believes that all elves should be like her--100% embrace the Andrastian human culture AND 100% reject the entire elven culture. If you're an elf who embraces even the tiniest bit of "elfy" stuff (history, religion, culture, lore, etc), you're automatically lumped in with "100% elfy elves" and get dismissed for it. It's an either-or fallacy. And the fact that she forces that view on even an elven significant other; forces a fight about the elven religion and tries to force you to either reject your entire religion or get dumped for it because Sera won't tolerate being with someone who happens to believe in the elven religion/culture, is abhorrent to me.

 

Hypocritical because Sera is expressing the exact same intolerant behavior she accuses all "elfy" elves of having, only she has zero self-awareness about it. Sera constantly complains about "elfy" elves, "they're so closed-minded," "they're so unnaccepting of people different from them," "they're so 'us-against-them' about people different from them," yet seems unaware that she displays the exact same behavior she accuses them of, just on the other side. She seems to think that she's inherently much more open-minded and accepting just because she embraces human culture and non-elfy elves, but the fact that she won't accept or tolerate the mere presence of elven culture or "elfy" elves (to the point that she'll dump an elven girlfriend for being "too elfy"), makes her just as bad as she accuses them of being, only worse since she claims to be better than that.

 

And ultimately, the fact that Sera forces the fight about the elven religion, and won't let an elven girlfriend get away with agreeing to disagree or just partially agreeing (like what the Dalish Inquisitor tries to do in the game when she says, 'What if some of it is true?' implying that she'd be willing to agree that maybe the elven gods weren't really gods, even though she won't agree that it's "all lies, only demons"), makes her intolerant and hypocritical in my book. (Not to mention emotionally manipulative since she acts like, "You not renouncing your religion/culture for me means you aren't accepting me as I am," when the very act of Sera trying to force you to change shows that she's the one not accepting you as you are.)

 

Except the Temple of Mythal is literally the ONLY place in the entire game that we never encounter demons. At most, what Abelas says implies that the ancient elven gods were mortals. ELVEN mortals. Not demons. Calling it demon worship is literally demonizing the elven pantheon pretty much for the purpose of laughing in their face. So there IS an alternative to 'truth' or 'demon worshiping.' That the elven gods were people who have been deified over the following millennia. There's a way to resolve this that isn't 'either you believe my way or you're wrong.'

 

And all the Inquisitor does is suggest that SOMETHING there may have been true, even if it's been twisted over time. And Sera refuses - she's the one saying it's all or nothing. That what happened at the Temple of Mythal proves that the elven gods are bullshit and the Maker is the truth. Which is still not the case - one being wrong doesn't automatically make the other right, either.

 

This is a matter with a lot in between black and white, either/or. But that's all Sera's accepting.

 

That's a really good point, I hadn't thought about how the Temple of Mythal is literally the only place where we don't encounter demons.

 

I definitely agree though about how Sera is the one who is forcing the "all or nothing" approach to the elven religion/culture debate.

[Teddie Sage]

I don't, because I love her.

[In Exile]

Except the Temple of Mythal is literally the ONLY place in the entire game that we never encounter demons. At most, what Abelas says implies that the ancient elven gods were mortals. ELVEN mortals. Not demons. Calling it demon worship is literally demonizing the elven pantheon pretty much for the purpose of laughing in their face. So there IS an alternative to 'truth' or 'demon worshiping.' That the elven gods were people who have been deified over the following millennia. There's a way to resolve this that isn't 'either you believe my way or you're wrong.'

And all the Inquisitor does is suggest that SOMETHING there may have been true, even if it's been twisted over time. And Sera refuses - she's the one saying it's all or nothing. That what happened at the Temple of Mythal proves that the elven gods are bullshit and the Maker is the truth. Which is still not the case - one being wrong doesn't automatically make the other right, either.

This is a matter with a lot in between black and white, either/or. But that's all Sera's accepting.

No, you're not getting it at all. Sera has a conception of the world. It might be a stupid and incorrect one, but it's her view of the world. And the demand is binary: she can either abandon that concept, you say, because it's stupid and wrong, or she can hold on to the belief.

Matters of belief are always black and white. From Sera's perspective, there's a clear truth. And asking her to abandon it isn't any different from her asking the Inquisitor to abandon her truth.

There's no way to resolve this apart from one of you abandoning your belief.

What if some of it is true isn't a compromise. It's a wishy-washy way to try and weasel in your own belief.

Let's flip it around: what if Sera's comprise was that maybe even Gods exist, but absolutely everything you saw and experienced at the Temple was 100% the product of demons, and the Well of Sorrows was just a demon infested mind control pit. Is that a "compromise"?

[Qun00]

There's no way to resolve this apart from one of you abandoning your belief.

Yes, there is. It may be hard to believe, but different people can coexist.

[Shechinah]

Let's flip it around: what if Sera's comprise was that maybe even Gods exist, but absolutely everything you saw and experienced at the Temple was 100% the product of demons, and the Well of Sorrows was just a demon infested mind control pit. Is that a "compromise"?

 

I question that as a genuine attempt at a reasonable compromise.

 

The compromise seems largely one-sided as Sera will have to agree to concede to consider the possiblity of other deities but the Inquisitor will have to agree to concede that the closet evidence they have to the existence of their deities and some actual evidence of some of their ancient culture is, in fact, a complete and utter lie.

 

Sera has to consider the possibility that other deities exist leaving her the option that comes with consideration; namely, considering it false but the Inquisitor has to accept without question that everything connected to the Temple is a lie which could, by the logic of that declaration, include their own deities.  

 

With all due respect, it sounds a bit like the compromise you hear from a person being petty about something and wanting to mock the other person under the poor guise of posing a reasonable compromise; "Here's the compromise; I'll concede that mayyybe you are right, you'll concede that you are absolutely wrong in every way."

 

A fairer compromise would be that both Sera and the Inquisitor has to consider the others' viewpoints; Sera has to consider that there may be something about ancient elves and their culture to be found in the Temple that should not be idly dismissed because of religious reasons or fear and the Inquisitor has to consider that there may be some questionable things in the Temple that should not be accepted without question because the Inquisitor could be wrong in their initial assumptions about them.
 

[SentinelMacDeath]

it took me a while to warm up to her but she really makes a lot of sense. She's basically the voice of the masses and I like it and I like her. Stick it to the rich guys! 

[Shechinah]

No, you're not getting it at all. Sera has a conception of the world. It might be a stupid and incorrect one, but it's her view of the world. And the demand is binary: she can either abandon that concept, you say, because it's stupid and wrong, or she can hold on to the belief.

Matters of belief are always black and white. From Sera's perspective, there's a clear truth. And asking her to abandon it isn't any different from her asking the Inquisitor to abandon her truth.

There's no way to resolve this apart from one of you abandoning your belief.

 

I do agree with you on Sera's conception of the world though I speculate that it may have less to do with a genuine belief the Maker and the religion the figure is tied to and more to do with needing to believe something because that wants something she can use to understand the unknown or "the nothing" as it is referred to on her gravestone in the Fade.

 

If the Maker and the theology he is tied to states that all other religions are false but there seem to be evidence to the contrary then that opens up the unacceptable possibility to Sera that she cannot fully rely on or trust in the guidelines and the perception provided by the Maker's theology.

 

[nightscrawl]

The Verchiel guy came off like a collossal ****** from the moment he opened his mouth, from my point of view. He cared so little for the people beneath him in rank or status, they were just objects to him, it's actually incredibly cruel when you think about it. Definitely comes under the category of people I think deserve a slap in the face.

I don't dispute that the guy was a terrible person. I don't actually mind killing people in games like this for reasons such as those -- it's fantasy and we can't do so in real life. But her loss of control in that scene is what I had the problem with. I mean, she doesn't even shoot him in the face with an arrow, or stab him with that knife she's holding, she goes totally batsh*t and stomps the guy to death.

 

The ability to give her the boot makes her a step above most of the companions. I love kicking her out after her quest as well.

I might try this on my next play. Though I somehow doubt that I will be satisfied with the dialogue options presented and won't be able to accurately portray my RP reasons for doing so. If that's the case I might just look at all the options and just decide to not bother. And I'm not one to not recruit or kick out anyone generally.

[Hazegurl]

No, you're not getting it at all. Sera has a conception of the world. It might be a stupid and incorrect one, but it's her view of the world. And the demand is binary: she can either abandon that concept, you say, because it's stupid and wrong, or she can hold on to the belief.

Matters of belief are always black and white. From Sera's perspective, there's a clear truth. And asking her to abandon it isn't any different from her asking the Inquisitor to abandon her truth.

There's no way to resolve this apart from one of you abandoning your belief.

What if some of it is true isn't a compromise. It's a wishy-washy way to try and weasel in your own belief.

Let's flip it around: what if Sera's comprise was that maybe even Gods exist, but absolutely everything you saw and experienced at the Temple was 100% the product of demons, and the Well of Sorrows was just a demon infested mind control pit. Is that a "compromise"?

Or...and this may sound crazy...you can just accept that people are going to believe different things and you don't need a carbon copy of yourself in order to be happy within a relationship.

 

An argument is not the same as demanding.  A compromise is not being wishy washy.  The perfect resolution to the argument between Sera and the Romanced IQ is her maintaining her own beliefs while accepting the IQ's as being different.  The one who said a relationship won't work due to having a different opinion was Sera. I don't recall the IQ having that option.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I hated her in my first playthrough. F*cking racist little tw@t.

 

...then I threw away all my assumptions about who she is, how she should behave and think, and just see her for the goofy, dumb overgrown child that she is, and suddenly, liking her isn't so hard at all. Did you know that if you make fun of her and call her stupid at certain points, she likes you for it? I got a kick out of that. So yeah... I used to hate her, but now she's like that dumb little sister I never had, but am kinda fond of.

Exactly, goof, dumb, immature, refuses to grow up. Just like my step son who is banned from my home for such stupidity. That is exactly the kind of stupid I don't do at all. I don't make fun of people and, immature (as in childishly so) adults irritate me to no end. Many times my step son heard "You're 30 years old, stop acting like you're 13!"

[DarkSun09]

Exactly, goof, dumb, immature, refuses to grow up. Just like my step son who is banned from my home for such stupidity. That is exactly the kind of stupid I don't do at all. I don't make fun of people and, immature (as in childishly so) adults irritate me to no end. Many times my step son heard "You're 30 years old, stop acting like you're 13!"

Hey, isn't it weird how Cole is kinda like a big child himself, but he's so much more mature than Sera? Good thing you can kick her out of the group whenever you want, right?

[In Exile]

I question that as a genuine attempt at a reasonable compromise.

The compromise seems largely one-sided as Sera will have to agree to concede to consider the possiblity of other deities but the Inquisitor will have to agree to concede that the closet evidence they have to the existence of their deities and some actual evidence of some of their ancient culture is, in fact, a complete and utter lie.

Sera has to consider the possibility that other deities exist leaving her the option that comes with consideration; namely, considering it false but the Inquisitor has to accept without question that everything connected to the Temple is a lie which could, by the logic of that declaration, include their own deities.

With all due respect, it sounds a bit like the compromise you hear from a person being petty about something and wanting to mock the other person under the poor guise of posing a reasonable compromise; "Here's the compromise; I'll concede that mayyybe you are right, you'll concede that you are absolutely wrong in every way."

A fairer compromise would be that both Sera and the Inquisitor has to consider the others' viewpoints; Sera has to consider that there may be something about ancient elves and their culture to be found in the Temple that should not be idly dismissed because of religious reasons or fear and the Inquisitor has to consider that there may be some questionable things in the Temple that should not be accepted without question because the Inquisitor could be wrong in their initial assumptions about them.

No. You're still missing the point. Sera's conception is stupid and not supported by the evidence. From a meta perspective, you and I can agree with that proposition. But Sera won't. To her, and based on her beliefs, you are asking the equivalent of my flippant proposition. My point here isn't "here's a reasonable compromise". My point is that the compromise only sounds reasonable because of your starting beliefs and assumptions about the world. But if you start with other beliefs and assumptions, then it's no longer reasonable.

Ultimately, the Inquisitor is asking Sera to abandon her worldview much like she is asking you to abandon your own worldview. You're just doing it more nicely.

[vbibbi]

Does Sera have much dialogue in JOH about learning that

Spoiler

Ameridan venerated both the Maker and the Dalish pantheon?

 

I don't recall specific dialogue on this. It would have been neat if she had some input on a non-elfy elf having a more open-minded religious outlook, whether or not she agrees with it. Maybe even have it be the spark that allows her to mature to the point in Trespasser.