26 réponses à ce sujet

[Remix-General Aetius]

The Reapers are the tools of the Catalyst. The Catalyst is a fully-evolved AI (presumably), which means it has free will. So it could call off the Reapers anytime if it wanted to, right?

 

It is not known if the Catalyst remains intact in Synthesis or Destroy (and he gets replaced by Shep's consciousness in Control). Just thinking of a different ending altogether where Shepard realized how valuable intact Reapers could be for the future......and convinced the Catalyst to "meet him halfway".

 

The Starbrat stays where it is but recognizes it doesn't qualify for the position to play God and calls off the Reapers. And since Shepard made the entire thing possible by everything he's done - let's face it, Liara would've been 86ed on Mars if the cavalry hadn't turned up - the Starbrat could now submit to Shepard's will.

 

Would that be a plausible thing to do? I know it said at first "it was created with the mandate to preserve life", as in its core parameter function but it also said "the Crucible has changed me".

[voteDC]

The big question for me is that if synthetic life is the threat to organic life, why do the Reapers not target the synthetics of each cycle.

Why destroy all space-faring organic life to stop a threat that may not have occurred in that cycle. After all they leave a scout behind who could bring them back if synthetics got too dangerous.

I do like your idea but I can't see the races of the galaxy suddenly accepting the help of the people who have wiped billions of them out.

[Remix-General Aetius]

Not necessarily having the Reapers stick around, more like going away indefinitely and no longer being intent on wiping out all advanced organic life.

[Dantriges]

Considering that it offers you its seat as Reaper boss it´s a good question why verbal commands like "go away" shouldn´t work. Perhaps some vague idea that only with the processing power of the Catalyst you can truly and wisely guide the Reapers and the fate of the galaxy.

 

Ahh yes, sure...

[Remix-General Aetius]

Ahh yes, sure...

 

Shep could always turn them into the good guys by claiming we're sucking the life out of the Milky Way!......oh wai........D!OH!!!

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think that is one of the bigger questions. The Catalyst is supposedly looking for a new solution to the problem, yet it limits the choice to just the Crucible options. What makes it worse is that Destroy is explicitly stated by the Catalyst to not be a solution. Just calling a retreat seems like a pretty good option for everyone involved. The Catalyst gets to keep the already harvested civilizations intact and has the time to actually think through the problem -- instead of just leaving cryptic explanations for the organic who's bleeding out. At the end of the day it's definitely better for the Catalyst than Destroy.

 

Not that it has to be an option, but the idea seems obvious enough to warrant at least a hand-wave.

[SwobyJ]

The Crucible 'changed him', but didn't change the Reapers.

There's still the harvest indoctrination feedback loop going on. Catalyst is still sure of its solution. It just sees potential for the Crucible. It does not see potential outside of the Crucible. In Low EMS you may see how much we really just 'hacked' into the Catalyst enough to force it to allow certain things with the Crucible - through the Citadel.

If the Reapers go away, it'd be a very short time before its decided that they're 'needed' again. Just 'going away' isn't going to work. The Reapers have been, even if 'secretly', integral to the course of the galaxy for up to billions (or more) of years and the Catalyst still has its programming.

There's a gist in ME3 that the Reapers themselves, and supposedly the Catalyst as their *collective intelligence*, are trapped in the cycle as well. Simply being a persuasive human isn't going to help here, as you're still just human and all arguments you can make for anything, will be eclipsed by their billions of years of data, as 'stupid machine' as they sound about it.

It'd be like telling the Geth Consensus to just 'stop' something. Why? By what code? With what evidence? How does it jive with their workings? You're not just talking to a boy - that's just the user interface - you're talking to an intelligence that is connected to all Reapers, all their data, all their experiences, and with core programming to preserve organic life in the Milky Way as a whole. It already had its solution, byt its definition of 'preserve'. Being charming about the idea of them going away isn't enough.


Destroy/Control/Synthesis seem contrived, totally understandably, but in terms of Control, you can only order the Reapers if you take the role the Catalyst has, and the Catalyst is bound to not 'running away'. So only Shepard in this moment could take the place of Control and set a new course for the Reapers. It happens to be such a transformative experience and maybe something like a massive-rapid-huskification that it disintegrates Shepard, overwhelms his body with with data transfer process. Shepard cannot have a trace of, or at least prominence of indoctrination as that would end up returning the Harvest Idea feedback loop and get the whole thing going again, at least in some form.


Basically the Reapers are trapped too, and no sweet words can directly change that. Shepard has to be the violent chaos towards their order. Any makers of the Crucible would not have counted on a suave Shepard telling them that they're doing a no-no and them listening and backing off.

[Iakus]

Wouldn't work.

 

Not "artistic" enough

[FlyingSquirrel]

I was working on something like this for the purpose of yet another "alternate ending" video that I never got around to making. I was going to give Shepard a "paragon speech option" along these lines:

 

"You keep saying that our differences always end in conflict - but you don't *know* that, because you always end the cycles before anyone can prove otherwise. Yes, there have been conflicts in our past, and yes, organics and synthetics make mistakes. Big ones, sometimes. But we learn from them and we move forward. Look at what's happening right in front of you. Look at the krogan and the rachni - for centuries, other species saw them as only a source of fear and violence. Today they stand alongside us as allies, comrades, even friends. Look at the quarians and the geth - they nearly drove each other to extinction over the question of synthetic life. But today they are rebuilding Rannoch together because they're ready for a shared future. Hell, look at my crew - my human pilot and an AI who began her life as a malfunctioning combat simulator have found love in the midst of the most devastating crisis any of us have ever faced. You cannot tell me that all that has been for nothing."

 

However, as a final twist, the Catalyst knows that it does not possess the instinctive acceptance of Shepard's POV and it therefore needs Shepard to "interface" with the Reapers to provide them with the necessary understanding. A Shepard with a full reputation bar can do this by using the blue Control levers and survive, but a Shepard with less than a full bar will prove unable to handle the neurological intensity of the experience and die. Either way, the Reapers would still cease their attacks and make themselves available to help with reconstruction.

[God]

Wouldn't work.

 

Not "artistic" enough

 

And it would be a cop out. As would any of your own ideas of what the ending should be. 

[rossler]

The Reapers didn't surrender during the last cycle. Or any cycle before that. I don't see how this one is any different.They've been doing this for millions of years, and every time the cycle has continued.

 

I'm sure someone in the previous cycles tried to convince them of something (stand up to the Reapers), but it always ended in the Reapers completing the harvest.

 

Shepard is not going to convince them of anything. Not in the condition he is in when he meets the Catalyst.

[Dantriges]

The current cycle is diifferent because of the Crucible.

Shep doesn´t need to red/blue talk them into surrendering, the Catalyst acknowledged that its solution doesn´t work anymore and time for a new solution. it´s not persuading them into surrendering, but proposing something. The catalyst said: "Let´s find a new solution," and then you can only pick what´s offered. Yeah ok, that´s what the Crucible seems to offer but why, if everyone in the room thinks that continuing harvesting is a bad idea/won´t work anymore, can´t you work out something different.

[Iakus]

 

Shepard is not going to convince them of anything. Not in the condition he is in when he meets the Catalyst.

Shepard should not have made it off Earth alive.

 

The Citadel should have been captured right off the bat, the relays shut down, and a thousand Sovereigns+support ships descended upon the Sol system.  It's defenses utterly annihilated, its fleets broken. Mars, Luna, and the outer world stations bombed to a ruin, Earth interdicted.  No one gets out who isn't indoctrinated, slushied, or husked.

 

And they would be the first of many as each world stands virtually alone against tens of thousands of Reapers.

 

But that didn't happen.  The Reapers were idiots.  The left the Citadel and the relays alone.  Shepard escaped with the Crucible plans.  And Hackett was able to gather scientists, resources, and warm bodies from across the galaxy to build it.

 

So really, what isn't possible?

[themikefest]

  And Hackett was able to gather scientists, resources, and warm bodies from across the galaxy to build it.

Didn't Shepard gather the resources and warm bodies to help with the crucible project?

[rossler]

The current cycle is diifferent because of the Crucible.

Shep doesn´t need to red/blue talk them into surrendering, the Catalyst acknowledged that its solution doesn´t work anymore and time for a new solution. it´s not persuading them into surrendering, but proposing something. The catalyst said: "Let´s find a new solution," and then you can only pick what´s offered. Yeah ok, that´s what the Crucible seems to offer but why, if everyone in the room thinks that continuing harvesting is a bad idea/won´t work anymore, can´t you work out something different.

 

Shepard is bound by the choices programmed into the Crucible. If control, synthesis, destroy and refuse are the only options presented, there is no way to work out something different. The Catalyst merely explains what each option does and what effect it will have if Shepard chooses the selected option.

 

I mean it's like a guy playing cards. The Catalyst is the dealer, and you are the player. You've got four cards, and each of them don't really look very good (to some people here), but you can't ask for a new hand. You play the one you've got because this is what was progammed into the Crucible using those blueprints you found on Mars. If you ask me, the Reapers wrote the blueprints for that device and you are simply a pawn in their little game. They have stacked the deck in their favor, not Shepard's.

[Gago]

Shepard should not have made it off Earth alive.

 

The Citadel should have been captured right off the bat, the relays shut down, and a thousand Sovereigns+support ships descended upon the Sol system.  It's defenses utterly annihilated, its fleets broken. Mars, Luna, and the outer world stations bombed to a ruin, Earth interdicted.  No one gets out who isn't indoctrinated, slushied, or husked.

 

And they would be the first of many as each world stands virtually alone against tens of thousands of Reapers.

 

But that didn't happen.  The Reapers were idiots.  The left the Citadel and the relays alone.  Shepard escaped with the Crucible plans.  And Hackett was able to gather scientists, resources, and warm bodies from across the galaxy to build it.

 

So really, what isn't possible?

 

Ahh the power of the plot armor. Without it ME3 wouldn't have lasted more than 10 mins.

[Dantriges]

Shepard is bound by the choices programmed into the Crucible. If control, synthesis, destroy and refuse are the only options presented, there is no way to work out something different. The Catalyst merely explains what each option does and what effect it will have if Shepard chooses the selected option.
 
I mean it's like a guy playing cards. The Catalyst is the dealer, and you are the player. You've got four cards, and each of them don't really look very good (to some people here), but you can't ask for a new hand. You play the one you've got because this is what was progammed into the Crucible using those blueprints you found on Mars.

 
Why? There are two entities standing there in this room, both agree that the harvest isn´t the answer. There is no reason for them to limit their choices to the one, the Crucible presented, when one of the offers is total control and the other is blow them up. The Catalyst isn´t really fond of destroy or control and if you aren´t fond of synthesis or all three, it would be in everyone´s favor to find something else.

 

Yeah you can say, the Catalyst is forced to offer them and is just waiting for you to drop the ball, which actually seems to be the most likely explanation. OTOH there isn´t much reason to plain out say it (it´s not likely that it will be revealed in a later game) and why can´t we ask it or offer another proposal and then deduce that the Catalyst isn´t much more than a mindcontrolled sockpuppet at the moment? So that we can´t find it out with a click on a dialogue option? Ah nice, so to keep that vague, my character has to behave like a moron with no clue.
 

If you ask me, the Reapers wrote the blueprints for that device and you are simply a pawn in their little game. They have stacked the deck in their favor, not Shepard's.

Well, if that´s the answer, the Catalyst must be suicidal. Why should it put in a destroy option? It says itself, that no real solution.

[rossler]

You're not fond of destroying the Reapers? I thought that's what Shepard wanted to do 5 minutes before you met the Catalyst.

 

why can´t we ask it or offer another proposal and then deduce that the Catalyst isn´t much more than a mindcontrolled sockpuppet at the moment? So that we can´t find it out with a click on a dialogue option? Ah nice, so to keep that vague, my character has to behave like a moron with no clue.

Bioware didn't program this option into the game. Have to play with what they give you.

[CronoDragoon]

Ahh the power of the plot armor. Without it ME3 wouldn't have lasted more than 10 mins.

Neither would ME1.

[themikefest]

 If you ask me, the Reapers wrote the blueprints for that device and you are simply a pawn in their little game. They have stacked the deck in their favor, not Shepard's.

If the reapers wrote the blueprints, how would each cycle before this one, know to add something to the device to make it work when the initial blueprints already worked or at least believed they would work? 

 

I believe the keepers designed the plans. They're the only ones, besides the reapers, that know the citadel inside and out and would know how the crucible, when built, can work with the Citadel. Here's a post  I posted about that.

[Gago]

Neither would ME1.

 

Why of course, even ME2 will end before you can [re]make your character, hell I doubt that any game would last as long as they do without plot armor. My comment about ME3 was because that was the game which was discussed by Iakus. 

[Dantriges]

You're not fond of destroying the Reapers? I thought that's what Shepard wanted to do 5 minutes before you met the Catalyst.

Some people aren´t for different kind of reasons ranging from "don´t want to fry the Geth" to"I will ensure humanity is #1 by oppressing the aliens with my Reaper slaves" to "synthesis sounds really good."
 

Bioware didn't program this option into the game. Have to play with what they give you.

Oh really?*sarcasm off* Yeah, I am aware of that.

[rossler]

Frying the geth is a side effect of choosing destroy. Much like pills have side effects. Each choice comes at a cost. Unless you buy into alternatives like everything the kid says is a lie, which I kind of subscribe to.

 

Oh really?*sarcasm off* Yeah, I am aware of that.

 

If you're aware of that, why do people keep asking for this option to be put into the game? It sounds to me that a lot of people don't want to play the game the way Bioware intended. The game gives you three (or four w/EC) choices to end the story. People want completely different solutions that aren't found anywhere in the game.

 

Game: You've got control, synthesis, destroy, or refuse. Pick one.

BSN: I don't like any of these options. I want to find a different solution.

Game: If you do not act, you will be forced to accept our dominion. The harvest will proceed.

[Dantriges]

It´s a "I would have preferred it, if they would have out that into the game instead of what we got."

Statement of personal taste? 

[rossler]

The "forced to accept our dominion" is a line the Catalyst uses depending on certain conditions. It's him saying, if you don't pick one of these options, we're gonna use you as Reaper food. There is no room for negotiating with me. It's my way or the highway.