58 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

 

 

Hawt

 

Unfriendly is a better word for it than unfair for sure

But for me it was the prospect of unlocking new things that kept me going in the beginning, I still remember how excited I was when I unlocked my first Krogan, wouldn't have been the same if everything were available from the start, but that's me.

 

I do feel that way, too, though not as much as others.

 

That's why DAMP put me in a weird place. I actually liked that the time it took me to reach a solid "manifest" was much shorter, and that I actually had some control over the process of unlocking characters (Luka for the win!) Of course, ultimately there was a lack of variety, and gameplay was significantly more repetitive because what weapon you use was really only relevant to 2H warriors and Rogues. Other than adding damage or bonuses, a new weapon didn't alter gameplay unless one of those bonuses fundamentally changed the way the weapon worked (Trapanner's for the win!)

[PatrickBateman]

It's the prevalence of armor and corresponding lack of AP to the new player, that makes the game suck for a while.

Edited to add: you want to see what it's like, go into Gold with your favorite Common/Uncommon gun but don't take any AP at all. No piercing mods, no AP/Drill ammo. Now try to take down some Banshees, Atlases, and Primes.

Some kits will do just fine without it, and honestly a new player that don't even have AP ammo II shouldn't be in gold games at all.

[stephenw32768]

The vanilla human adept don't really need it though and there are very few armored units on bronze (are there any? Can't really remember anymore).

 

There are, but few, and armour doesn't absorb as many points of damage in Bronze and Silver.  When I was playing Bronze, I found piercing mods most useful for Guardians.

 

There's a Banshee in Bronze, but iirc it doesn't show up until W11 and it's suuuper gimped. Still wants to hug you though!

 

There's a Banshee in Bronze on wave 7, 9, 10 and 11 IIRC.  Capped at only one per wave though, if memory serves.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

It's the prevalence of armor and corresponding lack of AP to the new player, that makes the game suck for a while.

 

Edited to add: you want to see what it's like, go into Gold with your favorite Common/Uncommon gun but don't take any AP at all. No piercing mods, no AP/Drill ammo. Now try to take down some Banshees, Atlases, and Primes.

 

It was having to do exactly this for a challenge that began my early relationship with the Human Sentinel.

 

But while there are kits that can be built for it (Justicar, HSent, most Adepts etc) you end up operating with very limited options, for sure. The one upside for someone starting over with a new manifest (at least with some experience using caster builds effectively) is that they can improve the rate at which they can unlock that manifest using vanilla characters this way, even if it is a little boring using the same kits over and over for the first while.

[Teh_Ocelot]

 

There's a Banshee in Bronze on wave 7, 9, 10 and 11 IIRC.  Capped at only one per wave though, if memory serves.

 

Seriously? Man I do not remember there being that many waves with them...it's been awhile lol.

 

Also, don't they only spawn once in Bronze? Like once you kill the boss units, they don't respawn? Have I completely lost my mind? Feel like that's the case though. Maybe they take up so much of the wave budget there's none left? 

[stephenw32768]

Also, don't they only spawn once in Bronze? Like once you kill the boss units, they don't respawn?

 

Correct; capped at one per wave, as I said.  It's not that they exhaust the wave budget, it's that the game is set to spawn no more than one.

 

Silver has some caps like that too.  Banshees are capped at four on wave 10, for example.

[Arkhne]

Ignoring Armour DR (Which is pitiful on Bronze), Reapers especially are punishing on the lack of piercing. Marauders are populous enough to pretty much always giving off quite a bit of armour plating, which, with low level common guns takes multiple shots at 0 damage to knock off. Brutes come equipped with armour plating (Guardians also similary make PUGs look stupid), even a husk can eat a clip from an Avenger or Predator. Sniping without a piercing mod against Reapers is really annoying.

 

When was the last time you didn't have piercing in some form? It is easy to forget how huge a difference it makes, often, there is also invisible components to the map that block shots. Can you play without piercing? Sure, Adepts and Engineers are great, but that leaves 3 reliable off-host characters a newb can play.

[JRandall0308]

Wave breakdown by Smehur:

https://docs.google....#gid=1663137974

(sheet opens onto Gold tab, be sure to select the difficulty you're interested in)

 

You can manipulate this in various ways. For example on a Gold Cerberus solo, the first two objective waves (3 and 6) have a cap (max) on the number of Dragoons, 3 on Wave 3 and 6 on Wave 6. So if you're getting Dragoon rushed off the objectives, you can kill enough Dragoons that they stop spawning. This has saved my a$$ numerous times on Gold solos.

[stephenw32768]

Wave breakdown by Smehur:

https://docs.google....#gid=1663137974

(sheet opens onto Gold tab, be sure to select the difficulty you're interested in)

 

You can manipulate this in various ways. For example on a Gold Cerberus solo, the first two objective waves (3 and 6) have a cap (max) on the number of Dragoons, 3 on Wave 3 and 6 on Wave 6. So if you're getting Dragoon rushed off the objectives, you can kill enough Dragoons that they stop spawning. This has saved my a$$ numerous times on Gold solos.

 

I really wish that Silver had a Husk cap on objective waves.  Getting monstered by mobs of them is the reason why my Silver solo attempts keep failing (two wave 3 objective timeouts, and one wave 10 wipe due to burning consumables on wave 3).

 

Husks (and Swarmers) are the true Reaper elite units!

[PatrickBateman]

Ignoring Armour DR (Which is pitiful on Bronze), Reapers especially are punishing on the lack of piercing. Marauders are populous enough to pretty much always giving off quite a bit of armour plating, which, with low level common guns takes multiple shots at 0 damage to knock off. Brutes come equipped with armour plating (Guardians also similary make PUGs look stupid), even a husk can eat a clip from an Avenger or Predator. Sniping without a piercing mod against Reapers is really annoying.

When was the last time you didn't have piercing in some form? It is easy to forget how huge a difference it makes, often, there is also invisible components to the map that block shots. Can you play without piercing? Sure, Adepts and Engineers are great, but that leaves 3 reliable off-host characters a newb can play.

It's not that dramatic, the human infiltrator with a Mantis will still do great (Cryo blast weakens armor) the human vanguard have no need for it as gun play is minimal. The human soldier will suffer a bit though but for bronze I don't remember anything to be unkillable.....

[Teh_Ocelot]

Correct; capped at one per wave, as I said.  It's not that they exhaust the wave budget, it's that the game is set to spawn no more than one.

 

Silver has some caps like that too.  Banshees are capped at four on wave 10, for example.

Thanks, like I said it's been a while so my memory was fuzzy.

[Arkhne]

It's not that dramatic, the human infiltrator with a Mantis will still do great (Cryo blast weakens armor) the human vanguard have no need for it as gun play is minimal. The human soldier will suffer a bit though but for bronze I don't remember anything to be unkillable.....

 

Did you even read what I said? Sniping/Mantis was specifically mentioned. And vanguard also requires hosting, which was also mentioned.

[PatrickBateman]

Did you even read what I said? Sniping/Mantis was specifically mentioned. And vanguard also requires hosting, which was also mentioned.

I might have read what you wrote, not what you said

Anyways, the basic kits with basic guns are more than equipped for bronze, yes the human soldier will suffer to some extent in the beginning, but the other 5 are just fine.

[PatrickBateman]

And no, Vanguards really don't require hosting, they do suffer from bad lag but they are just fine off host for the most part.

[Cryos_Feron]

The vanilla human adept don't really need it though and there are very few armored units on bronze (are there any? Can't really remember anymore).

I started playing this long after the last DLC were released and I didn't really see it as unfair that I wasn't able to perform on the same level as other players with better weapons and equipment, new players need to spend time on bronze anyway were the better stuff isn't needed.

exactly.

and when I think about it, those were great times when the obligatory bronze Brute came and we actually felt respect.
his gold brothers nowadays can consider themselves lucky when they get to survive longer than 3-4 seconds

better equipment does not mean more fun.

[Salarian Master Race]

exactly.

and when I think about it, those were great times when the obligatory bronze Brute came and we actually felt respect.
his gold brothers nowadays can consider themselves lucky when they get to survive longer than 3-4 seconds

better equipment does not mean more fun.

 

That is my current opinion of Transformers: Devastation.  I play on the highest difficulty level, Prime, with a Hammer that does 12k damage per hit.  Thanks to Health Gate, this essentially turns it into a 2-hit game for me, as pretty much every attack will leave me with 1HP.  Conversely, most normal mobs will be destroyed after two hits from my Hammer, and it is not even the best Hammer in the game.  I have heard from people who have the best Hammer doing 20k, even 30k per hit.

 

When the game gets to that point, it just isn't even fun anymore, as you are basically farming for perfect runs.  Anything less than perfect is a failure.  You could down the difficulty, but then you gotta switch to crappy Rank D weapons, and that's no fun either.

 

ME3MP isn't nearly that extreme, thankfully.

[Tonymac]

I hated RNG until I maxed my manifest, years ago.  Heck, I STILL hate it.  Its not a store, it's a lottery - and if it weren't for back luck, I'd have no luck at all.

[m-99 saber]

I just wanted to whine about the fact that I still haven't unlocked the Hurricane at more than 500 hours. Just unlocked the Spitfire today.

 

 

I really hope the game isn't like this for me:a.

[The Real Pearl #2]

This happened to me twice in one day. Few days after, my dog died...

 

Edit:

Coincidence... I don't think so...

life is cruel

[gothpunkboy89]

Unfair how?

 

To start a new player will burn though medi gel, Ops packs and rockets while they are learning the game.  Recruit only gives 1  med/rocket/pack.

 

Vet pack can give up to 3 but only if you get lucky. I've gotten 3 ammo packs and 3 op packs but not the 3 medi gel or rockets I needed. Thus going into a match with only 1 medi gel and no rocket. Puts new players at a big disadvantage.

 

A brand new player even playing silver waves only. Not even bronze would struggle to gain money points to buy 1 Vet pack per fight. Which again does not give you 100% on the items you will need like medi gels and such. Which you will burn though.

 

You lack the weapons, mods and gear bonuses to help you doing your learning period. 

 

Unless you know exactly 100% what you are doing. Something that takes time to learn every fight every pack opened is a loss for you. As what you spend is never the same amount as what you earn when it comes to medi gels and such.

 

I quit my initial playing of the MP because I always seemed to be running out of items I needed.  And until you can do Gold Waves you can never gain a decent money set up to effectively buy packs to gain better items, mods and gear without losing in some way with gels, rockets or op packs.

 

 

I specifically decided to play my fiance's MP game. Starting it from scratch because I know what a pain it is. I consider myself decently skilled. But I struggled on silver. Found that extremely poor money gain per fight. So I using a fairly well evolved Human adept went to gold. Something I could do because I normally play on gold difficulty on my account.  And boy was it an up hill fight.   Only level 1  bonus gear with level 1 structural economics for increased shield regen speed.  Only 2 rockets, medi gels, ops, ammo to use.

 

A new player would be wrecked in that set up.

 

A currency system isn't a bad thing. A weapon level up system isn't a bad thing. A weapon/mod unlock system isn't a bad thing.  A constant use of consumable items isn't a bad thing.

 

But they way it is set up is a kick in the teeth to new players. Only once you have gained certain items or skills does it even out more.  It would be one thing if it played exactly like single player. But it doesn't. Even doing an insanity play through of the entire trilogy doesn't really prepare you for the MP.  As I did that and would still regularly get my but kicked on silver and absolutely wrecked on gold for a while.

[gothpunkboy89]

exactly.

and when I think about it, those were great times when the obligatory bronze Brute came and we actually felt respect.
his gold brothers nowadays can consider themselves lucky when they get to survive longer than 3-4 seconds

better equipment does not mean more fun.

 

 

So you like being downed every few minutes because your weapon was like butterfly kisses from mommy to the? Getting dropped while you sit and watch players actually fighting and killing more then you could even hope to thanks to their better gear?

 

Watching other players from 3rd person view isn't my idea of fun......

[Arkhne]

To start a new player will burn though medi gel, Ops packs and rockets while they are learning the game.  Recruit only gives 1  med/rocket/pack.

 

Vet pack can give up to 3 but only if you get lucky. I've gotten 3 ammo packs and 3 op packs but not the 3 medi gel or rockets I needed. Thus going into a match with only 1 medi gel and no rocket. Puts new players at a big disadvantage.

 

A brand new player even playing silver waves only. Not even bronze would struggle to gain money points to buy 1 Vet pack per fight. Which again does not give you 100% on the items you will need like medi gels and such. Which you will burn though.

 

You lack the weapons, mods and gear bonuses to help you doing your learning period. 

 

Unless you know exactly 100% what you are doing. Something that takes time to learn every fight every pack opened is a loss for you. As what you spend is never the same amount as what you earn when it comes to medi gels and such.

 

I quit my initial playing of the MP because I always seemed to be running out of items I needed.  And until you can do Gold Waves you can never gain a decent money set up to effectively buy packs to gain better items, mods and gear without losing in some way with gels, rockets or op packs.

 

 

I specifically decided to play my fiance's MP game. Starting it from scratch because I know what a pain it is. I consider myself decently skilled. But I struggled on silver. Found that extremely poor money gain per fight. So I using a fairly well evolved Human adept went to gold. Something I could do because I normally play on gold difficulty on my account.  And boy was it an up hill fight.   Only level 1  bonus gear with level 1 structural economics for increased shield regen speed.  Only 2 rockets, medi gels, ops, ammo to use.

 

A new player would be wrecked in that set up.

 

A currency system isn't a bad thing. A weapon level up system isn't a bad thing. A weapon/mod unlock system isn't a bad thing.  A constant use of consumable items isn't a bad thing.

 

But they way it is set up is a kick in the teeth to new players. Only once you have gained certain items or skills does it even out more.  It would be one thing if it played exactly like single player. But it doesn't. Even doing an insanity play through of the entire trilogy doesn't really prepare you for the MP.  As I did that and would still regularly get my but kicked on silver and absolutely wrecked on gold for a while.

 

QFT. Especially since I've started an alt account, started playing my wife's account, only to have her say she wanted to change her name, so I had to start again. I have played 3 no-manifest accounts this year, I can play platinum, and solo gold, but this doesn't make starting a new account easy. This is all RECENT EXPERIENCE, in fact, my wife's second account was started about 2 days ago, those of you who started an alt account a year ago have already forgotten. Go start a new alt. Go play with the retarded PUGs that play today on that account, THEN come post here again.

 

It might be different on PC, but on PS3, it takes longer to find a game than to play a game, and if that game happens to be on Silver, expect the worst possible gameplay from the PUGs, expect them to be the level of player that would wipe on Bronze, and then expect them to not do any objectives at all, this is 90% of the Silver games on PS3. Basically, you have to solo with 2 missiles/ops/medigel, or you have to do that without the spawn control of a solo.

[Cryos_Feron]

To start a new player will burn though medi gel, Ops packs and rockets while they are learning the game.  Recruit only gives 1  med/rocket/pack.

 

Vet pack can give up to 3 but only if you get lucky. I've gotten 3 ammo packs and 3 op packs but not the 3 medi gel or rockets I needed. Thus going into a match with only 1 medi gel and no rocket. Puts new players at a big disadvantage.

 

A brand new player even playing silver waves only. Not even bronze would struggle to gain money points to buy 1 Vet pack per fight. Which again does not give you 100% on the items you will need like medi gels and such. Which you will burn though.

 

You lack the weapons, mods and gear bonuses to help you doing your learning period. 

 

Unless you know exactly 100% what you are doing. Something that takes time to learn every fight every pack opened is a loss for you. As what you spend is never the same amount as what you earn when it comes to medi gels and such.

 

I quit my initial playing of the MP because I always seemed to be running out of items I needed.  And until you can do Gold Waves you can never gain a decent money set up to effectively buy packs to gain better items, mods and gear without losing in some way with gels, rockets or op packs.

 

 

I specifically decided to play my fiance's MP game. Starting it from scratch because I know what a pain it is. I consider myself decently skilled. But I struggled on silver. Found that extremely poor money gain per fight. So I using a fairly well evolved Human adept went to gold. Something I could do because I normally play on gold difficulty on my account.  And boy was it an up hill fight.   Only level 1  bonus gear with level 1 structural economics for increased shield regen speed.  Only 2 rockets, medi gels, ops, ammo to use.

 

A new player would be wrecked in that set up.

 

A currency system isn't a bad thing. A weapon level up system isn't a bad thing. A weapon/mod unlock system isn't a bad thing.  A constant use of consumable items isn't a bad thing.

 

But they way it is set up is a kick in the teeth to new players. Only once you have gained certain items or skills does it even out more.  It would be one thing if it played exactly like single player. But it doesn't. Even doing an insanity play through of the entire trilogy doesn't really prepare you for the MP.  As I did that and would still regularly get my but kicked on silver and absolutely wrecked on gold for a while.

 

 

So you like being downed every few minutes because your weapon was like butterfly kisses from mommy to the? Getting dropped while you sit and watch players actually fighting and killing more then you could even hope to thanks to their better gear?

 

Watching other players from 3rd person view isn't my idea of fun......

 

I agree on the Medigel point.

 

 

The other points though,

 

learning also means that you have to lack something, in order to understand better what you'd need it for.   And most importantly:

you'll value the weapon upgrades more when you finally get them.

 

And aren't those sweet moments ?  each time ?

 

Yesterday I played with a friend who said he got a Quatrillion credits through a hacked PUG Game. Suddenly he has the best equipment after  only 2 months of being in the Multiplayer!  The first feeling that came to me was feeling sorry for him.

 

 

And besides:  Knowing what I know now about the game and its mechanics:  Seriously, I am quite sure that I would top score a lot of times with noob-equipment.   Of course I'll admit that making use of Biotic Explosions is a very important thing in this scenario.

 

And I'll admit that with certain characters you are not very competitive on gold and platinum if you only have beginner-equipment. 

But the Vanillas do already offer plenty of options there.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Do you see, Saikyo!?

 

Do you see the Pandora's Box opened when you claim to like RNG!?!?!?

[Fuenf789]

learning also means that you have to lack something, in order to understand better
...

Much wisdom in this. It's possible that such persepective only make sense for personality types that are in it for the long haul.

This player base also have/had another type (the "been/there done that" types ), (motivated by finalizing stuff quicker than the rest/ by all measure imaginable), and who will proabably be bored quickly after trllion credits/ maxed manifest/godmode mods /challenges maxed etc.

In support of your statement ( for former mentioned types), I think drip feed drops (controlled shortage) helps to have broadskilled players that can make optimal trade-offs on higher difficulties (from experience gained from leaner times), instead of brute-force one-arm bandits. More colourful playstyles.