475 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeCode]

Yes, they are, but you know, they don't have boobs or slim hips when it comes to sexualization. Just take Pratt's shirtless and after "shower" scene in Guardians Of The Galaxy.

So no, you're incorrect.

I love how people gets so dismissive when it's the opposite. Good lord.

 

No, they aren't.

 

Sexualisation is taking what people find attractive and emphasising it, making it either a focal point of the character, or at least of their appearence. What people find attractive about men is not the same as what people find attractive in women, and vice versa.

 

Think of what makes women (generally) attractive to men. It's pronounced curves (breasts, hips, butt etc) and the camera focusing on those parts of the body. Seductive movements, way of talking etc. Basically anything that emphasises femininity. These are generally what people are talking about when people are complaining about overly sexualised female characters.

 

Now think about what people find attractive in men. Signifiers of strength, security. Instead of curves, the arms and chest are usually the areas that are focused on, and you'll rarely come across a weedy/fat male squadmate (that isn't there as comic relief) in a BioWare game. Courage, humour, rebelliousness, honour. All traits that make a man attractive, all good guys in videogames tend to have these qualities in abundance. It's hard to have an unsexualised male  (human) character because the traits that make them a hero/anti-hero are inherently attractive traits for a man to have, and they are hugely exaggerated in male videogame heroes. The only way to avoid them is to make them really old or ugly and/or have a serious character flaw. Like Zaeed.

[Andrew Lucas]

That's very true but I think as a media mature it's only sensible to get rid of them or tone them down in one direction and the other.

Precisely. I don't see the issue of having the sexy beauty, the woman in charge, the cutie one, the mainly guy as options for a single game. Like you said - tone it down, adds variety and more options to the player's taste.

I still think people take Miranda's beauty too seriously. It's pretty much showed that she's much more than that, but people can have issues with how much pretty she looks.

And, I don't understand the complaints about Cassandra not being sexy or girly enough (Miranda opposite) I find her extremely gorgeous for a pixel, and sexy as hell solely on her accent and hips.

I guess people want a blank paper to interact with, but then they would complain that the paper lacks enough charisma and individuality.

[Andrew Lucas]

No, they aren't.
 
Sexualisation is taking what people find attractive and emphasising it, making it either a focal point of the character, or at least of their appearence. What people find attractive about men is not the same as what people find attractive in women, and vice versa.
 
Think of what makes women (generally) attractive to men. It's pronounced curves (breasts, hips, butt etc) and the camera focusing on those parts of the body. Seductive movements, way of talking etc. Basically anything that emphasises femininity. These are generally what people are talking about when people are complaining about overly sexualised female characters.
 
Now think about what people find attractive in men. Signifiers of strength, security. Instead of curves, the arms and chest are usually the areas that are focused on, and you'll rarely come across a weedy/fat male squadmate (that isn't there as comic relief) in a BioWare game. Courage, humour, rebelliousness, honour. All traits that make a man attractive, all good guys in videogames tend to have these qualities in abundance. It's hard to have an unsexualised male  (human) character because the traits that make them a hero/anti-hero are inherently attractive traits for a man to have, and they are hugely exaggerated in male videogame heroes. The only way to avoid them is to make them really old or ugly and/or have a serious character flaw. Like Zaeed.

Wat...

You just agreed with me, but whatever.

[SnakeCode]

Er... No I didn't. You said the things that sexualise men and women are the same. That entire post was explaining how they aren't.

[Andrew Lucas]

Nope. I affirmed that both men and women are sexualized in all media.

[mrjack]

As for those who think that Cerberus ships are placeholders... sorry folks but I don't buy it. MEA is being rebuilt from the ground up because of the change to the new Frostbite engine which means that even if they wanted to reuse some content from the trilogy they essentially couldn't. So why create a Cerberus ship as a placeholder when you can save time and create the real thing to begin with? The placeholder theory doesn't stand up IMO.

 

A mesh is a mesh and was created in some third-party 3D modelling software such as Maya or ZBrush and converted to the Unreal Engine format. Assuming they have the original assets, which they do unless there has been some catastrophic hardware failure, they would just do the same thing for FB3. So yes, it's entirely possible that the Cerberus shuttle is a place-holder.

 

The same goes for textures. Not everything we see in MEA will be 100% new although most things probably will be. There's no point in a 3D artist spending a day crafting a potted plant or a chair when they have all these ME-themed assets ready-to-go. A sensible amount of recycling is good for the game as it frees up time for artists to craft new stuff that players actually care about and we won't have to wait 6 years for the game to be made.

 

All that being said, I'm not clinging to the idea that it is a place-holder. If Cerberus show up in MEA, so be it.

[SnakeCode]

Nope. I affirmed that both men and women are sexualized in all media.

 

OK, so if you were agreeing with me, what was I incorrect about in the post you originally quoted?

[SolNebula]

Precisely. I don't see the issue of having the sexy beauty, the woman in charge, the cutie one, the mainly guy as options for a single game. Like you said - tone it down, adds variety and more options to the player's taste.

I still think people take Miranda's beauty to seriously. It's pretty much showed that she's much more than that, but people can have issues with how much pretty she looks.

And, I don't understand the complaints about Cassandra not being sexy or girly enough (Miranda opposite) I find her extremely gorgeous for a pixel, and sexy as hell solely on her accent and hips.

I guess people want a blank paper to interact with, but then they would complain that the paper lacks enough charisma and individuality.

 

Ideally I agree with you but the problem is in how they are presented, Miranda problem was because of how she was presented (camera angles and such) but she is much more than that. Same way BW tried to show so much Cassandra as the strong type that they fell flat in showing more her feminine side which would have helped overcoming the critics around her.

 

I think IF BW would tone down their cliché it would help immensly in making characters feel more realistic. This discourse is true with both gender and representations.

[Andrew Lucas]

OK, so if you were agreeing with me, what was I incorrect about in the post you originally quoted?

Oh well..

"Disagree about them being ugly, but I agree with the overall point. It's fair to assume that the female characters will be decidedly not "sexualised."

I hope males aren't as well.

Don't ask me.

[Andrew Lucas]

Ideally I agree with you but the problem is in how they are presented, Miranda problem was because of how she was presented (camera angles and such) but she is much more than that. Same way BW tried to show so much Cassandra as the strong type that they fell flat in showing more her feminine side which would have helped overcoming the critics around her.
 
I think IF BW would tone down their cliché it would help immensly in making characters feel more realistic. This discourse is true with both genders and representations.

Oh yeah, the angles, totally understandable. You're goddamn right.

[SnakeCode]

Oh well..



Don't ask me.

 

Lol, I think we may have had a bit of a miscommunication.  

[Andrew Lucas]

Lol, I think we may have had a bit of a miscommunication.  

Ha! Like - I was writing with the perception that you thought only females suffered from the issue, and you apparently went through with the interpretation that I thought both genders were sexualized in the same way.

Anyways, we think the same, basically.

[Gwydden]

This being BioWare, i think it far more likely that the buxom blonde is a placeholder than the Cerberus stuff.

People forget this is Mass Effect we're talking about. Buxom women aren't exactly a rarity 

 

And we still don't know what the Montreal's approach to this kind of thing is. So far, I'm only broken up that alien romances are confirmed. Why do they insist on torturing me so?

[mrjack]

I don't know why people point at Miranda as the worst offender when it comes to a questionable portrayal of a female character. Ass cam aside, she was intelligent, competent, independent and many other things that any person would aspire to be. Liara, on the other hand, is meek and subservient and by far the most sexually available female in the games. Even when she gets tougher as the series goes on, it doesn't ring true and seems like an act. To me, she seems like she only exists for Shepard. Even as the Shadowbroker, her whole universe seems to revolve around Shepard.

 

Also If you've never heard Ali Hillis switch from her regular speaking voice to her Liara voice, you should try and check that out. It's disturbing. 

[SardaukarElite]

Now think about what people find attractive in men. Signifiers of strength, security. Instead of curves, the arms and chest are usually the areas that are focused on, and you'll rarely come across a weedy/fat male squadmate (that isn't there as comic relief) in a BioWare game. Courage, humour, rebelliousness, honour. All traits that make a man attractive, all good guys in videogames tend to have these qualities in abundance. It's hard to have an unsexualised male  (human) character because the traits that make them a hero/anti-hero are inherently attractive traits for a man to have, and they are hugely exaggerated in male videogame heroes. The only way to avoid them is to make them really old or ugly and/or have a serious character flaw. Like Zaeed.

 

Maybe I'm weird but I find courage, humor, rebelliousness and honor attractive in a woman. If that's what counts as a sexualized character then I guess I want more sexualized women in video games. 

[Iakus]

Ideally I agree with you but the problem is in how they are presented, Miranda problem was because of how she was presented (camera angles and such) but she is much more than that. Same way BW tried to show so much Cassandra as the strong type that they fell flat in showing more her feminine side which would have helped overcoming the critics around her.

 

I think IF BW would tone down their cliché it would help immensly in making characters feel more realistic. This discourse is true with both gender and representations.

It was more than just camera angles, though having her butt fill the screen in several scenes certainly didn't help.

 

It was her painted-on outfit that showed every fold and crease.  Seriously, you can see her navel in her "loyalty" outfit in ME2.  And she wore stiletto heels worn in combat, though she wasn't unique in this.

 

And sadly, they didn't learn a darn thing for ME3, which put bad-@ss marine Ashley Williams in a "Mass Effect Barbie" look.  Instead of a proper Alliance uniform like other human officers, male and female alike, she got the tights, tin-foil miniskirt, thigh-high boots, and V-neck treatment.

 

Seriously, what the HELL were they thinking?  Or were they thinking at all?

[Cheviot]

I find this "alleged leak" to be rather weak. This is likely the work of a fan who just "likes making YouTube videos" as he states himself at the beginning. There's nothing in this leak that is really any different than what was described in the April 2015 leak. It sounds more like he took the text of the leak and embellished it... maybe to spur some discussions? Add to that the fact that he goes to great lengths to try to explain the source of this leak... and fails miserably in doing so. This sounds like "I heard it from my cousin's stepfather's sister who got it from her friend who has a friend who works across the street from a BioWare studio... blablabla"...

Exactly.  Practically everything comes from the survery leak, the two trailers and previous games. 

[Gwydden]

I don't know why people point at Miranda as the worst offender when it comes to a questionable portrayal of a female character. Ass cam aside, she was intelligent, competent, independent and many other things that any person would aspire to be. Liara, on the other hand, is meek and subservient and by far the most sexually available female in the games. Even when she gets tougher as the series goes on, it doesn't ring true and seems like an act. To me, she seems like she only exists for Shepard. Even as the Shadowbroker, her whole universe seems to revolve around Shepard.

 

Also If you've never heard Ali Hillis switch from her regular speaking voice to her Liara voice, you should try and check that out. It's disturbing. 

Yeah, Liara and the likes of her put me off. Have you realized how Bioware makes a LI along those lines in almost every game? I wonder if it's really that popular.

 

As for Miranda, I thought her character had a lot of potential in ME2. Sadly, most of it went unrealized in the next game.

[SolNebula]

I don't know why people point at Miranda as the worst offender when it comes to a questionable portrayal of a female character. Ass cam aside, she was intelligent, competent, independent and many other things that any person would aspire to be. Liara, on the other hand, is meek and subservient and by far the most sexually available female in the games. Even when she gets tougher as the series goes on, it doesn't ring true and seems like an act. To me, she seems like she only exists for Shepard. Even as the Shadowbroker, her whole universe seems to revolve around Shepard.

 

Also If you've never heard Ali Hillis switch from her regular speaking voice to her Liara voice, you should try and check that out. It's disturbing. 

 

The whole reason being how she was represented. Ass cam and other practices like that are the worst offender. We live in a very formal society the way things are presented are as much important as the things we present. It takes seconds to get judged but ages to make someone changes his/her minds on you. It's how our society works.

[SnakeCode]

Maybe I'm weird but I find courage, humor, rebelliousness and honor attractive in a woman. If that's what counts as a sexualized character then I guess I want more sexualized women in video games. 

 

As do I, but I was speaking generally. Those aren't usually  seen as sexy feminine traits, and when people are complaining about overly sexualised female characters those have traits have never once come up as something that needs to be toned down.

 

Cassandra has all of those, and is my favourite BioWare romance ever, but many guys didn't like her, because the things that men tend to like in women were dialed back with her.

[Iakus]

I don't know why people point at Miranda as the worst offender when it comes to a questionable portrayal of a female character. Ass cam aside, she was intelligent, competent, independent and many other things that any person would aspire to be. Liara, on the other hand, is meek and subservient and by far the most sexually available female in the games. Even when she gets tougher as the series goes on, it doesn't ring true and seems like an act. To me, she seems like she only exists for Shepard. Even as the Shadowbroker, her whole universe seems to revolve around Shepard.

 

Also If you've never heard Ali Hillis switch from her regular speaking voice to her Liara voice, you should try and check that out. It's disturbing. 

The dissonance between her character and the camera is exactly what makes her portrayal so questionable.

 

She is in fact a strong, competent, independent woman.  And we get treated to butt-shot and eye candy fan service of her at virtually every opportunity.  It's freaking juvenile.

[Andrew Lucas]

It was more than just camera angles, though having her butt fill the screen in several scenes certainly didn't help.

It was her painted-on outfit that showed every fold and crease. Seriously, you can see her navel in her "loyalty" outfit in ME2. And she wore stiletto heels worn in combat, though she wasn't unique in this.

And sadly, they didn't learn a darn thing for ME3, which put bad-@ss marine Ashley Williams in a "Mass Effect Barbie" look. Instead of a proper Alliance uniform like other human officers, male and female alike, she got the tights, tin-foil miniskirt, thigh-high boots, and V-neck treatment.

Seriously, what the HELL were they thinking? Or were they thinking at all?

Her outfits were chosen for a reason, she even explains it, and she's not ashamed of using them since the job required those.

Oh yes, I like Ash's new hair, but the skin and lips were...unsettling. I didn't mind her outfit, nothing of special IMO.

[SnakeCode]

The whole reason being how she was represented. Ass cam and other practices like that are the worst offender. We live in a very formal society the way things are presented are as much important as the things we present. It takes seconds to get judged but ages to make someone changes his/her minds on you. It's how our society works.

 

I don't think the way she was represented necessarily needs to change though, as has been previously mentioned, there is so much more to her than looks.

 

If people dismiss depth of character because of someone's appearance or a few camera angles then the problem lies with them, not the character. Iron Bull was presented in a very similar way and I haven't seen any serious complaints or suggestions that he needs to be toned down.

[SolNebula]

 

If people dismiss depth of character because of someone's appearance or a few camera angles then the problem lies with them, not the character. Iron Bull was presented in a very similar way and I haven't seen any serious complaints or suggestions that he needs to be toned down.

 

The reason for the bolded part is because the political climate nowadays is OK with the sexualization of men but totally offended by the sexualization of women. It's hypocritical I know but that's how things are now. Eventually one day people will ask too to stop doing that also for men.

[Iakus]

Her outfits were chosen for a reason, she even explains it, and she's not ashamed of using them since the job required those.

Oh yes, I like Ash's new hair, but the skin and lips were...unsettling. I didn't mind her outfit, nothing of special IMO.

She says she was designed to be perfect, including her looks.  Doesn't explain her outfit. 

 

Ash's outfit looks like she should be serving coffee, not serving in a military organization

 

I don't think the way she was represented necessarily needs to change though, as has been previously mentioned, there is so much more to her than looks.

 

If people dismiss depth of character because of someone's appearance or a few camera angles then the problem lies with them, not the character. Iron Bull was presented in a very similar way and I haven't seen any serious complaints or suggestions that he needs to be toned down.

I'd say the problem lies with the camera angles.  If you take a character with an interesting backstory and personality and continually focus on their hindquarters and dress them in outfits that look like they cut off blood circulation to the extremities, you're not doing them any favors.

 

IB's outfit was also ridiculous.  So you know what I did?  I crafted real armor for him.  I couldn't make him wear a shirt in Skyhold, but Andraste's blouse, I could make him wear a real breastplate in combat!