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[Qun00]

How is it possible that he was the keeper BEFORE Marethari?

She looks very, very old.

[Neras]

I think  WoT2 (I'd grab mine and check but it is in a box somewhere) said she has been Keeper about 30 years at that point so even if Marethari was born a few months after their father died they'd have to be in their early 30s in Origins. /shrug. 

 

Sabrae also has that one elf who said his grandfather fought when the Dales fell, so I just HC that for some reason the Sabare live longer than other elves. Maybe they had a crazy mad scientist blood mage Keeper or founder?

[Qun00]

Not to mention that by tradition she must've been Papa Mahariel's apprentice before.

**** is crazy, man.

[Neras]

Gah wrote Marehari instead of Mahariel. Yeah, It seems that canon-wise it is just not possible for Mahariel to be that young when Origins starts.

[theskymoves]

The WoT2 says that the Sabrae Keeper prior to Marethari died of lingering wounds inflicted in an attack on the clan by Avaar warriors, which differs significantly from the information imparted to Mahariel by Ashalle in the Dalish origin story (bandits, both human and city elves, attacked Keeper!Mahariel and Momma Mahariel when they were meeting secretly, he dies in the attack and she 'held on to life long enough to give birth' and then 'walked into the moonlight and never returned').

 

It's possible the story told to Mahariel about her/his parents is a lie, or, more probably, the devs just forgot about the earlier specificities and the need to adhere to a timeline for the Dalish Warden when they later embellished Marethari's biography.

[Illegitimus]

How is it possible that he was the keeper BEFORE Marethari?

She looks very, very old.

 

Uh...was he?  I don't remember anything like that.  

[Qun00]

Ashalle says so.

[Ghost Gal]

How is it possible that he was the keeper BEFORE Marethari?

She looks very, very old.

 

Not to mention that by tradition she must've been Papa Mahariel's apprentice before.

**** is crazy, man.

 

There's nothing that says Keeper's Firsts HAVE to be teenagers, or biologically younger than Keepers.

[Illegitimus]

Ah.  Got it.  She does say "He was with us for a very long time".  So he was, let's say, 70.  Men can and do father children at that age.  Marethari was just some 20 or 30 years younger and is a good 18 or so years older than she was then.  The mother could have been in her 20s.  It was just one of them May-December romances.  

[Beregond5]

There's one other thing. Iirc, you learn from some conversations with Lanaya that Keepers aren't only picked because of their magic, but because of their purity of blood as Dalish as well. It was actually a point in her story that there were a lot of Dalish in the camp that objected to Lanaya as Zathrian's first because she was an outsider. It's possible that Mahariel's father had that kind of advantage over Marethari when he was chosen as Keeper, regardless of age.

[Qun00]

Huh. Could swear there was a long ass post explaining that Marethari is old because she probably was the second person to take the position as Senior Mahariel's First.

But whoever posted it decided to delete it (or hide it as we call it here). Ohh well.

[sylvanaerie]

I remember also seeing (whether it's in game or on the boards here, I don't recall) that Dalish live extended lives away from exposure to humans and their cities.  Of course, none of them approach what Zathrian or the ancient elves had, but I'm assuming it meant maybe they are able to be in the prime of life a lot longer.  Some of their customs (such as the bonding Gheyna and Cammen want to undergo) seem to encompass some years of preparation, as Lanaya will--mildly--chastise a warden who plays Cupid for them.

[Illegitimus]

There's one other thing. Iirc, you learn from some conversations with Lanaya that Keepers aren't only picked because of their magic, but because of their purity of blood as Dalish as well. It was actually a point in her story that there were a lot of Dalish in the camp that objected to Lanaya as Zathrian's first because she was an outsider. It's possible that Mahariel's father had that kind of advantage over Marethari when he was chosen as Keeper, regardless of age.

 

It's possible that Marethari was Mahariel Sr.'s First because she had been the previous Keeper's Second.  Still the description of Keeper Mahariel as having been with them for a long time strongly points at him having been just a lot older than his girlfriend.  

[straykat]

It all seems to line up enough to me. Marethari is old, but she's not ancient or magically preserved like Zathrian.

 

Mahariel's father might be the same elf who met Maric and Loghain in Stolen Throne.. and that was before the Dragon Age officially began. Maybe he lived a little longer and the Warden was born sometime in the first decade of the Dragon Age. And this elf wasn't too old either. He was called a "young elf" and had brown hair. Maybe Marethari was his apprentice, but not that much younger. Maybe like a older brother to her, rather father-figure. He died before his time, and she took over. But this bit about Stolen Throne is speculation on my part. So take it for what it's worth.

[Aren]

I remember also seeing (whether it's in game or on the boards here, I don't recall) that Dalish live extended lives away from exposure to humans and their cities.  Of course, none of them approach what Zathrian or the ancient elves had, but I'm assuming it meant maybe they are able to be in the prime of life a lot longer.  Some of their customs (such as the bonding Gheyna and Cammen want to undergo) seem to encompass some years of preparation, as Lanaya will--mildly--chastise a warden who plays Cupid for them.

Or it is just something that they believe,while in truth contacts with humans doesn't have any effect on their youth.

[Illegitimus]

Or it is just something that they believe,while in truth contacts with humans doesn't have any effect on their youth.

 

There's no doubt at all that Dailish are going to live longer than City Elves barring violence.  The sanitation in Alienages must be atrocious and the medical care probably stops at "there's a midwife".   

[Gervaise]

Actually the history given for Marethari in WoT2 totally disregards what we were told in Origins about Mahariel's father.   According to WoT2 Marethari became Keeper of the clan on the death of the former Keeper in 8:82.    If this Keeper had been Mahariel's father then Mahariel would have had to have been around 48 years old at the time of the 5th Blight.   Whilst this is not impossible, it seems far more likely that Mahariel would be an elf in their late teens or early twenties, otherwise they would likely have a spouse and children in the clan, which clearly they do not.   This also accounts for why Marethari seems so much older in DA2 than she does in Origins.   

 

So I think it is more likely that the person who wrote the history of Marethari for WoT2 was not familiar with the history given for Mahariel's father in Origins and was basing it more on the Marethari we know in DA2.   It also explains why Flemeth thought she owed her a special favour and so sent you to meet up with the Sabrae clan with her amulet.    Other things that don't match up between the two histories, is that if you do the Dalish origin, your clan (or at least part of it) are still in Ferelden at the end of the Blight as your foster mother is there to hear about the Dalish boon and it is implied that your clan will benefit from it.   Yet according to DA2 and WoT2 the entire clan leave Ferelden to escape the Blight and are already on the slopes of Sundermount when the Blight ends.    The odd thing is that the default history in DAI is that of a Dalish who sacrifices themselves to end the Blight, so you would think there would ensure the history matched properly with what when on in Origins.

[straykat]

Actually the history given for Marethari in WoT2 totally disregards what we were told in Origins about Mahariel's father.   According to WoT2 Marethari became Keeper of the clan on the death of the former Keeper in 8:82.    If this Keeper had been Mahariel's father then Mahariel would have had to have been around 48 years old at the time of the 5th Blight.   Whilst this is not impossible, it seems far more likely that Mahariel would be an elf in their late teens or early twenties, otherwise they would likely have a spouse and children in the clan, which clearly they do not.   This also accounts for why Marethari seems so much older in DA2 than she does in Origins.   

 

So I think it is more likely that the person who wrote the history of Marethari for WoT2 was not familiar with the history given for Mahariel's father in Origins and was basing it more on the Marethari we know in DA2.   It also explains why Flemeth thought she owed her a special favour and so sent you to meet up with the Sabrae clan with her amulet.    Other things that don't match up between the two histories, is that if you do the Dalish origin, your clan (or at least part of it) are still in Ferelden at the end of the Blight as your foster mother is there to hear about the Dalish boon and it is implied that your clan will benefit from it.   Yet according to DA2 and WoT2 the entire clan leave Ferelden to escape the Blight and are already on the slopes of Sundermount when the Blight ends.    The odd thing is that the default history in DAI is that of a Dalish who sacrifices themselves to end the Blight, so you would think there would ensure the history matched properly with what when on in Origins.

 

Huh.. I missed the 8:82 comment. That does change things dramatically. There's no way Mahariel should be "dah'len", even by Dalish standards. They screwed up.

 

To hell with it, I'm just gonna invent my own canon that lines up better with Origins. And even Stolen Throne, if by chance that elf that Loghain and Maric met is the same guy.

 

Who wrote this anyways? The book says "Ben Gilenas" is the book lead, but I don't know who that is... or if they wrote this part specifically.

[Qun00]

Actually the history given for Marethari in WoT2 totally disregards what we were told in Origins about Mahariel's father. According to WoT2 Marethari became Keeper of the clan on the death of the former Keeper in 8:82. If this Keeper had been Mahariel's father then Mahariel would have had to have been around 48 years old at the time of the 5th Blight. Whilst this is not impossible, it seems far more likely that Mahariel would be an elf in their late teens or early twenties, otherwise they would likely have a spouse and children in the clan, which clearly they do not. This also accounts for why Marethari seems so much older in DA2 than she does in Origins.

So I think it is more likely that the person who wrote the history of Marethari for WoT2 was not familiar with the history given for Mahariel's father in Origins and was basing it more on the Marethari we know in DA2. It also explains why Flemeth thought she owed her a special favour and so sent you to meet up with the Sabrae clan with her amulet. Other things that don't match up between the two histories, is that if you do the Dalish origin, your clan (or at least part of it) are still in Ferelden at the end of the Blight as your foster mother is there to hear about the Dalish boon and it is implied that your clan will benefit from it. Yet according to DA2 and WoT2 the entire clan leave Ferelden to escape the Blight and are already on the slopes of Sundermount when the Blight ends. The odd thing is that the default history in DAI is that of a Dalish who sacrifices themselves to end the Blight, so you would think there would ensure the history matched properly with what when on in Origins.

You can't just assume everyone knows what "WoT2" means. Is it one of the novels?

Beyond that... I think I can imagine how someone as old as Marethari could've become keeper upon the predecessor's death. Mahariel's parents died around the time s/he was born, so they must've been young at the time.

I disagree about her appearance, though. Marethari looked 80 in DAO, while her DA2 self is smooth like a baby.

So many timeline plotholes. I suppose you could try asking David Gaider, the one who wrote the Dalish origin story. Then again, he has limited patience for dealing with fans.

[straykat]

You can't just assume everyone knows what "WoT2" means. Is it one of the novels?

 

World of Thedas vol. 2

[Illegitimus]

Actually the history given for Marethari in WoT2 totally disregards what we were told in Origins about Mahariel's father.   

 

 

 

I'm gonna write that off as errata.  

[Qun00]

Ah. Got it. She does say "He was with us for a very long time". So he was, let's say, 70. Men can and do father children at that age. Marethari was just some 20 or 30 years younger and is a good 18 or so years older than she was then. The mother could have been in her 20s. It was just one of them May-December romances.

No, she says it with all the words. " Your mother was a hunter, one of the finest, and your father was the keeper before Marethari. He was with us for a long time."

[Illegitimus]

No, she says it with all the words. " Your mother was a hunter, one of the finest, and your father was the keeper before Marethari. He was with us for a long time."

 

I'm sorry, I don't understand in what way you are disagreeing with me.  

[Gervaise]

The only thing that is really wrong is the date of 8:82.   Take that out and the history works okay, provided you accept that Marethari looks older than she really is.    In fact the bit about them being attacked by barbarians ties in with something that one of the elves tells you in Origins.    I was a bit confused at the time because he said that was went we first crossed into Ferelden and I thought he meant during the flight from Orlais after the Exalted March. If he did say when the Dales fell that had to be a mistake since the Dalish do not live that long.   There is a reflection on the life of Zathrian in the World of Thedas 2 (sorry but people tend to abbreviate it) and this says he was known to have lived at least 3 centuries, which meant he had outlived all his other contemporaries among the Dalish.   The story of Marethari makes it clear the clan used to live in the Frostback Mountains and only came to Ferelden after the incident involving Mahariel's father and it is this that the elf must be referring to when he talks about his grandfather.

 

So if you shift the date of Mahariel's birth to around, say 9:10, then they would be twenty at the start of Origins.   WoT2 says that Marethari had just married her sweetheart, the Keeper's second (who died at the same time as the Keeper), and that she was already considered to be "one of the most talented Dalish mages alive".    This would suggest she was more than just a teenager but it is quite possible that the Keeper's apprentices do marry later because their earlier life is taken up with training.  Merrill had not married when we meet her in DA2.    So if Marethari was, say, 25 in 9:10, then in 9:30 she would be 45.    Some people get grey hair earlier than others and the life of the Dalish is a hard one, so may have aged her at least appearances wise, particularly considering she took on the responsibility of the clan much earlier than she expected to.  

 

Anyway, that seems to me to be the best way of reconciling the various histories of the Sabrae clan.

[straykat]

The only thing that is really wrong is the date of 8:82.   Take that out and the history works okay, provided you accept that Marethari looks older than she really is.    In fact the bit about them being attacked by barbarians ties in with something that one of the elves tells you in Origins.    I was a bit confused at the time because he said that was went we first crossed into Ferelden and I thought he meant during the flight from Orlais after the Exalted March. If he did say when the Dales fell that had to be a mistake since the Dalish do not live that long.   There is a reflection on the life of Zathrian in the World of Thedas 2 (sorry but people tend to abbreviate it) and this says he was known to have lived at least 3 centuries, which meant he had outlived all his other contemporaries among the Dalish.   The story of Marethari makes it clear the clan used to live in the Frostback Mountains and only came to Ferelden after the incident involving Mahariel's father and it is this that the elf must be referring to when he talks about his grandfather.

 

So if you shift the date of Mahariel's birth to around, say 9:10, then they would be twenty at the start of Origins.   WoT2 says that Marethari had just married her sweetheart, the Keeper's second (who died at the same time as the Keeper), and that she was already considered to be "one of the most talented Dalish mages alive".    This would suggest she was more than just a teenager but it is quite possible that the Keeper's apprentices do marry later because their earlier life is taken up with training.  Merrill had not married when we meet her in DA2.    So if Marethari was, say, 25 in 9:10, then in 9:30 she would be 45.    Some people get grey hair earlier than others and the life of the Dalish is a hard one, so may have aged her at least appearances wise, particularly considering she took on the responsibility of the clan much earlier than she expected to.  

 

Anyway, that seems to me to be the best way of reconciling the various histories of the Sabrae clan.

 

Yeah, Master Ilen was talking about the Clayne.

 

Some of the Clayne gave birth to Ash Warriors.. which eventually became Andrastian eons ago and are do-gooders.. but I think the tribe still exists. Just like the Avvar. They could have even been the Fereldens living around the Frostbacks, near or with Avvar.. which you could tie into Mahariel and Marethari's story.