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[Cyberstrike nTo]

I'm curious about this. In Fallout's dialogue, is there ever an instance when the PC might have a word or two that's automatically spoken to keep the flow of a conversation (like how? why? and?). One of the things about Bio's voiced PC's is that they have fairly long lines and multiple sentences. I'd like to know how FO4's dialogue compares in terms of sheer word count for the longest lines spoken.

 

Most of BioWare's games that have a dialogue wheel have featured paraphrases and visual icons to give people an idea or at the least an approximation of what the PC is going to say.

 

Fallout 4 doesn't do that, most of the time but not all of the time they give you a prompt just saying: sarcastic, flirt, romantic, dismiss, thoughts, relationship, as well as threaten, persuade dialogue options in either a green, yellow, and red font depending on how how easy or hard it is to attempt to use to persuade and/or threaten someone else. Some of the dialogue wheel's options is exactly what the PC actually says (or have very little changes to it) to make the text box mod kind of redundant. Most of the PC's spoken dialogue is pretty short, now there are exceptions of course where the dialogue spoken is long and what is text on the wheel doesn't equate to the spoken dialogue, the exchange before the fight with Kellogg is perfect example of this problem.

 

I think Bethesda gets the basics of the dialogue wheel and I know that Fallout 4 is their first attempt with a voiced PC and the dialogue wheel and I want to give them the benefit of the doubt but this is a case of taking it too the extremes with just basic prompts that don't tell you a damn thing to actually giving away everything that the PC says which IMHO ruins the whole thing.

 

If anything IMHO the way dialogue wheel is handled and used in Fallout 4 actually strengthens BioWare's defenses of how they used it and to me at least has basically proven that they were right not to have full dialogue shown in the text and that paraphrases and icons work a lot better than a one-word prompt or showing what the PC is going to say because reading something before it's spoken is kind of boring to me.  

[9TailsFox]

I had the same problem with ME. Especially while talking with Jacob.

 

 

In DA:O Zevran flirt with Warden. we have options.

Take me now.

I am interested.

I am faltered but no.

Lets just be friends.

Boobs or gtfo.

 

In DA2 Anders flirts with Hawke.

Take me now.

I am hungry.

Fu.k of ******..

[Hiemoth]

 

In DA:O Zevran flirt with Warden. we have options.

Take me now.

I am interested.

I am faltered but no.

Lets just be friends.

Boobs or gtfo.

 

In DA2 Anders flirts with Hawke.

Take me now.

I am hungry.

Fu.k of ******..

 

I legitimately hate this comic. In DA2, Anders hits on the player character. The options make it clear, with actual symbols, which answers lead to a romance. If Hawke turns it down, friendship score with Anders takes a minor hit, which is both understandable and also easily recovered in the game. The scenario posited in this comic is literally impossible, as the player needs to continue hitting on the romance points with Anders for it to happen and can turn Anders down at the last moment. The turn down itself isn't even that rude, as it is Hawke just letting Anders know s/he isn't interested in the same manner.

 

And by the way, I kind of love that whenever I've seen this argument is trotted out, male Hawke is used in it as the example despite the fact that female Hawke has the exactly same interaction with Anders. Nor do I see in this discussion people complaining about the fact that Isabella flirts both male and female Hawke.

[9TailsFox]

I legitimately hate this comic. In DA2, Anders hits on the player character. The options make it clear, with actual symbols, which answers lead to a romance. If Hawke turns it down, friendship score with Anders takes a minor hit, which is both understandable and also easily recovered in the game. The scenario posited in this comic is literally impossible, as the player needs to continue hitting on the romance points with Anders for it to happen and can turn Anders down at the last moment. The turn down itself isn't even that rude, as it is Hawke just letting Anders know s/he isn't interested in the same manner.

 

And by the way, I kind of love that whenever I've seen this argument is trotted out, male Hawke is used in it as the example despite the fact that female Hawke has the exactly same interaction with Anders. Nor do I see in this discussion people complaining about the fact that Isabella flirts both male and female Hawke.

I don't know what is you problem. Why does gender even mater. Butthurt much. It's just joke how bad dialogue will and paraphrases are. It's exactly same situation in DA:O  and DA2, in origin it is done great a lot options, in DA2 very bad. Just show how dialogue options are dumped down.

[Joseph Warrick]

Where as that shows its weakness to me.

You're cute.
Okay is that sarcastic, flirty, condescending?

You're an idiot.
Okay is that harsh or joking?

 

You should probably try to watch it or play it because my message lacks situational context that may help you. A person would have to be very obtuse to be confused by scenes like this.

 

At the same time, I enjoy the expectation. More often than not it's so fun to listen to a good voice such as Natasha Little say something along the lines of what you've picked but not knowing it word by word. Again, this creates the illusion that the character has their own life.

[Hazegurl]

I don't know what is you problem. Why does gender even mater. Butthurt much. It's just joke how bad dialogue will and paraphrases are. It's exactly same situation in DA:O  and DA2, in origin it is done great a lot options, in DA2 very bad. Just show how dialogue options are dumped down.

But in the case of the DA2 comic the paraphrase wasn't the issue. It was the fact that people couldn't handle turning Anders down because they were too scared of not being liked by him. and also because Anders was hitting on their male Hawke which made them all paranoid.

 

I hope no one follows Dreamfall's system.  That would just drive me crazy.

[Laughing_Man]

I legitimately hate this comic. In DA2, Anders hits on the player character. The options make it clear, with actual symbols, which answers lead to a romance. If Hawke turns it down, friendship score with Anders takes a minor hit, which is both understandable and also easily recovered in the game. The scenario posited in this comic is literally impossible, as the player needs to continue hitting on the romance points with Anders for it to happen and can turn Anders down at the last moment. The turn down itself isn't even that rude, as it is Hawke just letting Anders know s/he isn't interested in the same manner.

 

And by the way, I kind of love that whenever I've seen this argument is trotted out, male Hawke is used in it as the example despite the fact that female Hawke has the exactly same interaction with Anders. Nor do I see in this discussion people complaining about the fact that Isabella flirts both male and female Hawke.

 

But in the case of the DA2 comic the paraphrase wasn't the issue. It was the fact that people couldn't handle turning Anders down because they were too scared of not being liked by him. and also because Anders was hitting on their male Hawke which made them all paranoid.

 

As far as I remember, first time playing through DA2 I was clearly not interested in romancing Anders, but was then ninja'manced because I chose

a dialogue option that seemed like a polite refusal to me. I was torn between mild annoyance and hilarity, and simply reloaded and went with

the "F*** You" option.

 

At least on first play through, the new conversation symbols were not clear to me half the time, so yes, this Comic is both hilarious and accurate.

[Hiemoth]

I don't know what is you problem. Why does gender even mater. Butthurt much. It's just joke how bad dialogue will and paraphrases are. It's exactly same situation in DA:O  and DA2, in origin it is done great a lot options, in DA2 very bad. Just show how dialogue options are dumped down.

 

As already pointed out, the comic you posted has nothing to do with the paraphasing issue or even this mythical dumping down issue. In the scenario in the comic, the game clearly indicates which responses advance the romance. As for why gender matters? Because that in all the cases tI've seen that particular scene trotted out,it is in reference to male Hawke being hit on by Anders.

 

 

As far as I remember, first time playing through DA2 I was clearly not interested in romancing Anders, but was then ninja'manced because I chose

a dialogue option that seemed like a polite refusal to me. I was torn between mild annoyance and hilarity, and simply reloaded and went with

the "F*** You" option.

 

At least on first play through, the new conversation symbols were not clear to me half the time, so yes, this Comic is both hilarious and accurate.

 

I honestly do not understand how ninjamances are even remotely possible in DA2. The game indicates flirtatous/romantic dialogue with a golden heart, a symbol which only appears in very limites situations. Rejections are referred by a black, broken heart. The options are shown in a scenario where Anders is clearly hitting on the player. If the player has difficulties comprehending what those mean within the context of the game, let alone the scene, I personally would not chalk that up to as a failure for Bioware.

 

So no, the comic is not accurate as for what happens in it to be possible essentially requires the player to be intentionally blind to the context clearly provided by the game.

[Laughing_Man]

As already pointed out, the comic you posted has nothing to do with the paraphasing issue or even this mythical dumping down issue. In the scenario in the comic, the game clearly indicates which responses advance the romance. As for why gender matters? Because that in all the cases tI've seen that particular scene trotted out,it is in reference to male Hawke being hit on by Anders.

 

 

I honestly do not understand how ninjamances are even remotely possible in DA2. The game indicates flirtatous/romantic dialogue with a golden heart, a symbol which only appears in very limites situations. Rejections are referred by a black, broken heart. The options are shown in a scenario where Anders is clearly hitting on the player. If the player has difficulties comprehending what those mean within the context of the game, let alone the scene, I personally would not chalk that up to as a failure for Bioware.

 

So no, the comic is not accurate as for what happens in it to be possible essentially requires the player to be intentionally blind to the context clearly provided by the game.

 

IIRC, this particular conversation with Anders contained two "heart" options, with the first an enthusiastic "yes", and the second with something more lukewarm. I chose the lukewarm one thinking perhaps that the heart in this case represented friendship.

 

The symbols were never explained clearly by the game, and I don't know if I had an opportunity to see them and their effects before on other characters. And that is the heart of the issue, the fact that I don't really know what my character is about to say - it's rather annoying.

 

(there was a separate thing with Anders of course that made this situation somewhat worse - the assassination & transplant his character went through, from a cheerful heterosexual rogue that was a contender for most-fun-party-member in Awakening, to a whiny gay with almost no sense of humor. Yes, Justice was a good excuse for the angst part, but it still added to the general WTF feeling, especially with a male Hawke)

[Arcian]

Just to be clear I am pro full dialogues.

 

However, if it could be modded would it probably be fine.

You do know this is an EA game, right? They're allergic to modding.

[Laughing_Man]

You do know this is an EA game, right? They're allergic to modding.

 

Yup, after all, how will they sell horse armor DLC's for 4.99 Euro if there's a modding scene?

[Hiemoth]

IIRC, this particular conversation with Anders contained two "heart" options, with the first an enthusiastic "yes", and the second with something more lukewarm. I chose the lukewarm one thinking perhaps that the heart in this case represented friendship.

 

The symbols were never explained clearly by the game, and I don't know if I had an opportunity to see them and their effects before on other characters. And that is the heart of the issue, the fact that I don't really know what my character is about to say - it's rather annoying.

 

(there was a separate thing with Anders of course that made this situation somewhat worse - the assassination & transplant his character went through, from a cheerful heterosexual rogue that was a contender for most-fun-party-member in Awakening, to a whiny gay with almost no sense of humor. Yes, Justice was a good excuse for the angst part, but it still added to the general WTF feeling, especially with a male Hawke)

 

But your issue here would be exactly the same with the written lines in this case, which was evident in many situations in DAO with Leliana especially where it was easy to miss the start of the romance or unintentionally start it. Besides, I maintain that if in that flirt situation you have two golden hearts and one broken heart, it isn't not unreasonable from the developer to assume that the player takes the hint. If there mistake, fair enough as they happen, but I don't thinks it's fair at that moment to indicate the developer failed.

 

As for the Anders thing, whatever. Although I guess it does make sense to point out that Anders still flirts with women as well, as one might do as a bisexual.

[Hiemoth]

Yup, after all, how will they sell horse armor DLC's for 4.99 Euro if there's a modding scene?

 

And when's the last time they did anything like that?

[Giantdeathrobot]

Bioware got the dialog wheel right in DA:I. Questions are marked, options that move the conversation forward are marked, it uses tonal icons when appropriate, and major decisions are explained in details. I was pretty much never took unawares by what my character said in Inquisition.

 

By contrast, FO4 uses an awful system where, with no tonal icons, only 2 words as paraphrase, always 4 options and generally unindicative paraphrase words, it's a coin flip as to whenever your character will say something you want them to or not. The sarcastic option is the worst by far, sometimes it's an harmless jab, other times an almost cruel joke. I once called a Brotherhood Paladin a looter to his face, which should have earned me a faceful of laser rifle if he wasn't the nicest BoS guy ever.

 

I use the full dialog mod and haven't looked back at all. 

[Larry-3]

I do not want to read the full dialogue text. I am fine with the summery version. I would like to know my character would say his lines, though. Put something in parentheses...

Example:


...I agree (reluctantly) \
.................No (angry) - ● - I am leaving (humorously)
Yes (enthusiastically) /

[Aimi]

I legitimately hate this comic. [bunch of extensive justifications]

dude all you needed to say was "it's CAD and it's drawn by that artless sociopath Tim Buckley"

that is reason enough for most people to hate the comic

factual inaccuracies are kind of part and parcel of the whole experience

[AlanC9]

IIRC, this particular conversation with Anders contained two "heart" options, with the first an enthusiastic "yes", and the second with something more lukewarm. I chose the lukewarm one thinking perhaps that the heart in this case represented friendship.
 
The symbols were never explained clearly by the game, and I don't know if I had an opportunity to see them and their effects before on other characters. And that is the heart of the issue, the fact that I don't really know what my character is about to say - it's rather annoying.
 

Are you sure the symbols weren't explained clearly? I thought the manual was fairly explicit.

[Hazegurl]

Didn't DA2 state that the hearts were flirts when the first one popped up? 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sure you can play a Shepard who does not trust Udina, but you're also a soldier who was given orders that you pretty much have to follow. Even as a spectre you kinda have to follow the orders of the Council until things get so out of hand you have to secretly defy them (unlock the ship). It's not like you can tell Udina to leave the room when you speak to the council.   And what could you possibly gain by keeping secrets in that situation anyway? I don't even think you're a Spectre at that point.  It just sounds like a total game over go home decision.

I'm not saying I needed to keep the secret forever.  I just wanted to wait to see what Udina would do before showing all my cards.  I didn't trust him, so I wanted to be cautious.

 

but the point is that it wasn't possible to tell from the paraphrase what the line would be.  Examples were requested.  I offered one.  Whether I should be trying to keep secrets isn't relevant.

Sure you can play a Shepard who does not trust Udina, but you're also a soldier who was given orders that you pretty much have to follow.

When given an order, the first choice is always whether to follow it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bioware got the dialog wheel right in DA:I. Questions are marked, options that move the conversation forward are marked, it uses tonal icons when appropriate, and major decisions are explained in details. I was pretty much never took unawares by what my character said in Inquisition.

I would agree that DAI did this better than any other voiced PC game I've seen.  And more, I tend to ignore the tone icons.  I've never been able to figure out what they mean anyway, so I choose as if they're not there.

 

And in DAI, that was fine.  DAI didn't even need the tone icons to be the best example of the dialogue wheel.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Didn't DA2 state that the hearts were flirts when the first one popped up? 

Flirting doesn't always have sexual intent behind it.  You can flirt with someone playfully without being romantically interested.

 

DAI even made this explicit with Dorian.  He enjoys flirting, and will happily do it with anyone, regardless of romantic interest.

[9TailsFox]

Flirting doesn't always have sexual intent behind it.  You can flirt with someone playfully without being romantically interested.

 

DAI even made this explicit with Dorian.  He enjoys flirting, and will happily do it with anyone, regardless of romantic interest.

Exactly my male Inquisitor click every flirt option with Sera and Cullen just because I know nothing happens. I would have flirted with everyone just was afraid to mess something and lock in romance.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And when's the last time they did anything like that?

*looks at the Spoils of the Avvar and Qunari DLCs that came out in June and July*

[Laughing_Man]

But your issue here would be exactly the same with the written lines in this case, which was evident in many situations in DAO with Leliana especially where it was easy to miss the start of the romance or unintentionally start it. Besides, I maintain that if in that flirt situation you have two golden hearts and one broken heart, it isn't not unreasonable from the developer to assume that the player takes the hint. If there mistake, fair enough as they happen, but I don't thinks it's fair at that moment to indicate the developer failed.

 

As for the Anders thing, whatever. Although I guess it does make sense to point out that Anders still flirts with women as well, as one might do as a bisexual.

 

What I want is a full line of dialogue, that gives me control over what my character says, and also gives me a full opportunity to understand the tone

without the need for icons that can be misinterpreted. Is that too much to ask?

 

Anders: His "gayness" was much more pronounced in game than his bisexuality, you have the opportunity to save his gay boyfriend from being tranq'ed.

(maybe he says something in dialogue about his bisexuality, but if you play as M!Hawke, it is hardly obvious.)

 

And when's the last time they did anything like that?

 

Spoils of the Avvar and Qunari DLCs.

 

Are you sure the symbols weren't explained clearly? I thought the manual was fairly explicit.

 

As far as I remember not in the game (I almost never read manuals, and in 99% of games I don't need to), I'm not going to suffer through DA2 again just to find out...

 

Didn't DA2 state that the hearts were flirts when the first one popped up? 

 

Not as far as I remember, but I may have missed it.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Yup, after all, how will they sell horse armor DLC's for 4.99 Euro if there's a modding scene?

 

Wasn't that Bethesda?   

 

 

 

*looks at the Spoils of the Avvar and Qunari DLCs that came out in June and July*

 

 

 

To be fair both those DLCs it also had weapons, new mounts, beds, thrones, and decor for Skyhold some of which I find useful and others I don't. The horse armor for Oblivion was just that a set armor for one of your horses, a brief note and a very brief bit of new dialogue from the stable master selling the armor,