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[OldTimeRadio]

From this thread on the Baldur's Gate forums, last week:

 

Again, I usually look at all this as optimistically as possible.  OverHaul/Beamdog would probably be interested in doing a NWN overhaul and Trent has some ideas about how he'd do it...but the licensing is getting in the way.  He has many times previously described the number one obstacle as being the current Neverwinter MMO.

 

As a semi-regular Trent Oster stalker (well, at least on Twitter) I've noticed that he seems to have intentionally ramped up his hype quite a bit for pretty much any D&D-related anything over the last year.  It cannot hurt to get in WotC's good graces for any number of reasons, but I still hope...

[Fester Pot]

I really don't know how things work in the industry, but I'd just change the name Neverwinter into an acronym if it's causing the issue - if it was allowed of course.

NWNEE.

FP!

[Pstemarie]

Considering that WotC went after a small independent retailer on the West Coast - which bought its products direct - for using the word "Neverwinter" in its name, I can't see the licensing issues sorting themselves out anytime soon. The only way they'll flex on the name usage is when - and if - they move away from Neverwinter as their major development area within the Forgotten Realms.

 

Maybe for a Christmas present to all us NWN fans, they'll go back to using the Dalelands as the setting for their Forgotten Realms releases  and Neverwinter:EE will become a reality.

[Failed.Bard]

I'd be happy with someone just releasing a new, multi-threaded graphics engine for it.  A better game engine, with most of the nwnx options built into the toolset, would just be a bonus at that point.  Any game actually attached to it would be irrelevant.

[Frush O'Suggill]

If the Neverwinter name is what's holding things up, then just don't use it! Between NWN, NWN2, NWO, and SCL, the name has already been played out. Faerun is a big place, and I don't understand the fixation with this one tiny corner of it. Just change the setting of the OC to a different city - no one will care! Or, even better in my opinion, excise all hardcoded references to the FR completely and give us the option to use whatever setting we want. It is beyond frustrating that the name Neverwinter is really what's keeping us from getting an updated Aurora engine.

[MrZork]

Two things... First, I am pretty sure that Oster (and anyone with a similar idea for the game) want to use the name "Neverwinter" or something close like "NWN" specifically. Being able to leverage all of that pre-made name-recognition, marketing, and goodwill for a well known product is part of the appeal of the project for companies like Beamdog.

 

Second, while I am not an IP attorney or anything, I suspect that Oster is using "the Neverwinter name" to refer to the panoply of IP-related issues connected to releasing an updated version of the game. Anything that uses the D&D rules and/or has a similar campaign, whether or not it's called Neverwinter Nights, will be a potential target of WotC/Hasbro's legal team.

 

All that said, I am thrilled that someone like Oster is still interested in a project like this. I hope that, eventually, one of the folks with decision-making power on that IP will realize they have a ready-made avenue for making some money and give the green light.

[Drewskie]

Wotc/Hasbro have been very poor stewards of d&d properties when it comes crpgs.  And not just the Forgotten Realms... DLA and Codi were supposed to be Dragonlance and Planescape projects respectively, but that didn't pan out as wotc was protective of those, even though they've not touched the settings themselves in like 20 years.  They could have called the MMO anything and used any setting... Greyhawk or perhaps Eberron both would have made sense.  They've screwed over the game and the community consistently over the years and will continue to do so well into the future.  

[Zarathustra217]

I think what we should hope for is that the Neverwinter MMO dies out. Until that happens, NWN:EE will be considered as unwanted muddling of things, even if it's because of the name alone - and there's just more money in mindless whacking at stuff gameplay there days.

[Pstemarie]

...and there's just more money in mindless whacking at stuff gameplay there days.

 

Not to mention its fun - kind of reminds me of when I was 12 and I discovered...nevermind 

[OldTimeRadio]

@Failed.Bard - Apparently Beamdog approached Bioware/EA and nosed around about licensing the engine for an unrelated project they were considering.  According to Trent, Bioware/EA seemed to have no interest in licensing the Aurora engine outright for any use other than simply overhauling NWN.  I don't know how vociferous they were about it.  Maybe someone just casually said "Nah, we're not real interested in licensing the whole shebang for something else".  Although he didn't hint at this, it occurred to me they also might have also said "We will, but it'll cost you the same million we charged CD-Projekt to license it for Witcher."  Either way, that seems to set up a quandary where the only re-licensing of the Aurora engine is either going to be related to Neverwinter, specifically, or nothing at all.  I hate when people get so frustrated that they say something is stupid but that's just stupid.  

[Lilura]

Despite not being a fan of their IE-based Enhanced Editions, I think the NWN community would benefit greatly from an EE if it's to relive the popularity it once enjoyed, and still deserves (particularly the community-made content).

[OldTimeRadio]

Yeah, even a really "weak" enhanced edition would help enormously.  If Beamdog/Overhaul even sneezed on NWN as far as an EE goes, that would at least put it on Steam, probably with a Steam Workshop, and with some basic (but sorely needed) graphics engine improvements like shaders and VBO's- a modern way of dealing game models.  If they did just that, it would actually be quite a coup for the community from the standpoint of what that would allow custom content makers to make.

 

Without being overly somber about it, it's getting harder and harder to imagine that Beamdog is going to be willing/able to pick up a NWN:EE project in a few years when things presumably "open up".  No fault of their own, of course, just kind of how business opportunities present themselves.

[Baaleos]

I'd be happy for anything exciting to happen in the nwn world.

I host my own PW, but I haven't even been on it for months - its really just kept up in case someone wants to play it.

 

I have all these ideas for things I want to build, but get let down when I start because nwn isn't capable of all the things I want, or I just feel demotivated because of the decline of the community - its a spiral, I know : By being demotivated, I demotivate others.

 

Im in work now, and often I will jump onto these forums every 20-30 minutes, praying for an interesting post to reply to.

How sad am I. :-(

[OldTimeRadio]

If I were in that situation (and assuming it uses a standard hakpack like CEP), I'd get some CC skills under my belt, customize the sh*t out of it with custom content tailored for the module, then release it as a standalone adventure.  The funny thing is, people are still buying NWN and they're still playing NWN.  But multiplayer has always been a relatively small percentage of the NWN player base.  The old vault had a survey about it, and something like 10x as many people played SP modules as MP, maybe more.  Looking at the download count for Gladiatrix III from the new Vault, for instance, seems like people are still interested in SP.

 

Just my 2 cents.  

[Grani]

Just releasing the game on Steam would cause an influx of new players. I'm not so sure, however, if I'd like it to utilize Steam workshop. This would only make it more difficult for non-steam users to grab content stored there. Then again, maybe the new content would be worth it.

 

But it's unrealistic to expect it to be released on Steam, especially considering Neverwinter Nights 2 was available there for some time and then taken down.

 

However, it would be good if the game was released at least on Origin! I mean, Jade Empire made its way there, can't Neverwinter Nights do the same? Of course there might be some licencing issues, but if GOG managed to release, then EA would be even more likely to do so.

[Tchos]

But it's unrealistic to expect it to be released on Steam, especially considering Neverwinter Nights 2 was available there for some time and then taken down.

 

NWN2 was taken down at the same time that all D&D related games were taken down from all of the major online shops, during the lawsuit between Atari and Hasbro over the rights to D&D video games.  It returned to the rest of the shops after the lawsuit was settled and the publisher was changed to Hasbro instead of Atari, but Steam was the exception.  Why only them?  Who knows.  Maybe not enough people asked for it to come back.  But it's still in their system, and everyone who bought it when it was available still has it in their accounts and can play it and redownload it as normal, so it shouldn't be difficult to make it available again if people ask.

[Grani]

NWN2 was taken down at the same time that all D&D related games were taken down from all of the major online shops, during the lawsuit between Atari and Hasbro over the rights to D&D video games.  It returned to the rest of the shops after the lawsuit was settled and the publisher was changed to Hasbro instead of Atari, but Steam was the exception.  Why only them?  Who knows.  Maybe not enough people asked for it to come back.  But it's still in their system, and everyone who bought it when it was available still has it in their accounts and can play it and redownload it as normal, so it shouldn't be difficult to make it available again if people ask.

 

Looks like people don't ask, then. And NWN2 is one thing, NWN1 is another. Even if there is a slight chance of NWN2 coming back to Steam, NWN1 is a far call.

[Lilura]

I think there is a profound lack of awareness with regard to NWN when it comes to even the hardcore RPG crowd (many of whom dismiss it outright, citing the OC), let alone your general gaming populace; at least compared to the Infinity Engine - older and primitive by comparison. My feeling is that this difference is attributable to the advent of EE and I'm unsure if NWN can regain a footing without an EE or similar.

[OldTimeRadio]

@Lilura - I agree about the "lack of awareness" and even the bias against NWN because of the original campaign.  What I also find really strange is how deeply it's dismissed in certain circles, almost as some kind of ****-up, when it won six dozen awards including "actual awards" like a Bafta and several GDCA (industry) awards- not to mention being used by NATO and the US military for training.

 

Edit: LOL, word starred by the forum software is not the one you might think.

[Lilura]

I agree 100%. In some circles the dismissal borders on the obnoxious: a blanket hate for Aurora and its content that stems from the inadequacies of the OC that basically equals a refusal to try any of the wonderful user-made content of the past and present (user-made content, I might add, that in many cases surpasses the commercial classics praised by these blockheads).

 

If Beamdog reworked the OC (as per your Trent quote in the OP) and gave the engine a visual overhaul to bring in the casuals, then that would go along way to changing the perception of Aurora in general; but I don't see anything short of that doing so. NWN needs a wave, not a ripple.

[Grani]

I agree 100%. In some circles the dismissal borders on the obnoxious: a blanket hate for Aurora and its content that stems from the inadequacies of the OC that basically equals a refusal to try any of the wonderful user-made content of the past and present (user-made content, I might add, that in many cases surpasses the commercial classics praised by these blockheads).

 

If Beamdog reworked the OC (as per your Trent quote in the OP) and gave the engine a visual overhaul to bring in the casuals, then that would go along way to changing the perception of Aurora in general; but I don't see anything short of that doing so. NWN needs a wave, not a ripple.

 

Actually, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be even better if the EE of NWN had no built-in campaigns whatsoever. No, seriously - if there are people currently dismissing NWN because they can't see past the official campaigns, then they would be forced to do so if the game had no campaigns whatsoever. Only the toolset and a platform for launching user-made content.

 

I'm not saying I'd like that, but maybe that would be better in some twisted way.

 

But anyway, the only place I've seen NWN bashed is RPG Codex. Could you show me some other examples of people spitting on our beloved game?

 

Edit: Gosh, I've made the mistake of visiting RPG Codex just now. These people TRULY are blockheads.

[Lilura]

Actually, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be even better if the EE of NWN had no built-in campaigns whatsoever. No, seriously - if there are people currently dismissing NWN because they can't see past the official campaigns, then they would be forced to do so if the game had no campaigns whatsoever. Only the toolset and a platform for launching user-made content.

 

I'm not saying I'd like that, but maybe that would be better in some twisted way.

 

I don't think that's Beamdog's style... their preference seems to be toying with existing campaigns, making their own expansions (i.e, SoD), making the engine a lil' more friendly to current gen OS/hardware, stylizing UIs to suit tablets, and adding convenience tweaks that modders made a decade ago (in themselves those things mean nothing to me, btw. It's only the potential for putting NWN back on the map that I'm interested in). Their dev team is not talent heavy enough to make a great campaign, though I heard they hired Gaider recently as creative director...

 

Edit: Gosh, I've made the mistake of visiting RPG Codex just now. These people TRULY are blockheads.

 

The Codex are ok for the most part (I post there often, spruiking NWN mods here and there). But it's true that some of the current crop are largely resistant to NWN, perhaps because of the negative review of it given on the site (which only covered the OC). If not ignored entirely, NWN is held in low esteem across the board, not just on the Codex.

 

I used to be stubbornly resistant to NWN, too. I always thought the Infinity Engine RPGs were far superior and that NWN was a step down (in many respects, I still feel that). But it wasn't until I began to thoroughly explore the jungle of mods that I realized the potential of Aurora for delivering the single-player D&D adventures that I like to play. Some of them are eerily close to the feel of tabletop role-playing, and that really impressed me. I just wish NWN was turn-based and isometric, like The Temple of Elemental Evil: if ToEE availed of a toolset like Aurora, I would not be playing NWN. I would be playing my dream game.

[henesua]

Hahahaha. RPG Codex people. They have no idea what NWN is.

[Asymmetric]

Hahahaha. That Asymmetric guy. He had no idea what RPG Codex was - up until now . He has problems with that site though, search isn't working.

 

On a more serious note: I'd really like a EE for NWN. It would undoubtedly bring new players. But I have no idea how they could go about it. A graphic overhaul would be needed to make it appealing to the crowd and that's a lot of work, as the the standard tiles wouldn't cut it. I can't see them creating tilesets and other custom content. Gonna keep updating the CC tools though, in case they need them .

Otherwise maybe taking existing custom content with the premission of the creators is an option. Can't really imagine them doing that either though.

 

Back when NWN was first release it imho looked terrible compared to the pretty hand drawn background of BG 2. That's what(at first) kept me from trying it for a long time.

 

Realistically I don't see much chances for NWN EE because of publisher issues (Atari, Hasbro, WotC and whatnot ... messy). But I'll keep on dreaming.

[Bhaelrot]

For what it is worth, I think both Grani and henesua have combined to suggest a potential strategy.

 

NwN is NOT a "game" in the same way a cookbook or stovetop is not a meal. The OC is just a single Aurora recipe among countless recipes, and like most everything, does not appeal to all palates. The OC is not, nor has it ever been, the whole of NwN by any measure. 

 

Thus, I think the marketing should focus on the amazing possibilities of NwN. Emphasize and capitalize on the fact that players can make whatever game they can imagine, and instead of remaking and including the OC, which most folks agree is subpar at best, include one or more highly regarded fan created modules in the EE release. Choose diverse modules so as to give the doubters/haters/confused a few proven top notch examples of what can be accomplished with the power and flexibility of the Aurora Engine. This would probably be a lot cheaper and less of a legal headache than using the OC.

 

Grani hits a real sore spot, a gaping hole, and that is the lack of a client/platform from which players can easily discover, post and launch user-made content. This, in my most fervent of opinions, is an absolute must-have. If nothing but this and some updated graphics/UI were created it would probably bring NwN out from the dim shadows sufficiently to potentially garner enough interest that a legitimate update/upgrade/EE would become a more viable reality. NWVault is an excellent resource but it is a dinosaur and not user friendly when compared to something like the Steam Workshop.

 

*sigh