40 réponses à ce sujet

[German Soldier]

I posted this as a question since i wish to understand as for why aside from the Ultimate sacrifice and Dark ritual ending the protagonist is not allowed to kill the archdemon.

Technically it is possible for th e Warden to inflict the final blow to the archdemon while forcing Loghain to be  more close to his head so that the essence will reach him,it will be his redemption in battle but in no way he will be allowed to finsih the Warden job.

Why the player is not allowed to do something like this?

Honestly i doubt that Loghain would have been refused to do that,i would have been still reedemed by saving the HoF.

[Illegitimus]

What makes you think the "soul" is in the archdemon's head as opposed to their entire body?  

[German Soldier]

What makes you think the "soul" is in the archdemon's head as opposed to their entire body?  

It doesn't matter where the soul is,it came out from the head with all the light because the injury is inflicted there(you didn't even see the final scene?),and the procedure that the GW use to kill the archdemons is to stab them in the head,what Gharael did as well,stabbed Andhoral in the head and the soul reach the tainted body more close to it,if a 2nd warden is on it's knee near to the body the soul will go into that body because is the one more close.

Redemption for Loghain glory for the Warden it's perfect.

[Illegitimus]

It doesn't matter where the soul is,it came out from the head with all the light because the injury is inflicted there(you didn't even see the final scene?),and the procedure that the GW use to kill the archdemons is to stab them in the head,what Gharael did as well,stabbed Andhoral in the head and the soul reach the tainted body more close to it,if a 2nd warden is on it's knee near to the body the soul will go into that body because is the one more close.

Redemption for Loghain glory for the Warden it's perfect.

 

That would be very awkward and not very dramatic.  

[RoseLawliet]

Tinfoil hat mode: engaged!

 

The whole "souls" explanation of why a Warden dies if they kill the archdemon is... interesting. Given revelations about the nature of souls in the DA-verse from later games, I seriously think the Wardens have been incredibly lucky. Imagine a situation where the person killing the archdemon was resentful of the Wardens, or maybe only doing it for personal power. Would the archdemon be killed in this case? I don't think so. I think the soul would still try to inhabit the nearest tainted creature, in this case the Warden, but the Warden might not be opposed to sharing a body. Maybe we'd see an Old God soul abomination. And since the Warden is still tainted, the soul would be tainted, and still retain all the powers of an archdemon. The Blight would continue, only now the archdemon would be able to coherently taunt the desperate people opposing it, and articulate exactly how everyone will die.

 

So... it would be possible to kill the dangerous dragon body, but we'd still be left with a Blight.

[Yaroub]

Loghain will have to pull off a Usain Bolt in order to make it happen. Alas still nothing happen.

[Callidus Thorn]

Wouldn't Loghain have to have basically mounted the Archdemon for this to work?

 

Frankly if Loghain's that committed to killing it, he can do it himself.

[German Soldier]

 

Loghain will have to pull off a Usain Bolt in order to make it happen. Alas still nothing happen.

Nope no need to do something so complicated,before to stab the critter in the head Loghain came near to his body,then the warden inflict that blow while he absorb the soul,is not so complicated.

[Yaroub]

Well..In that case, Loghain may attempt to shag the old god just to be cautious. I mean you can't get closer than that.

[Illegitimus]

Nope no need to do something so complicated,before to stab the critter in the head Loghain came near to his body,then the warden inflict that blow while he absorb the soul,is not so complicated.

 

I don't see any way that Loghain can get closer than a person who has just buried their sword to the hilt in the dragon.  

[Aren]

That would be very awkward and not very dramatic.  

story sake only i think,honestly i don't see any problem with it if a warden kill the archdemon but another absorb his soul because his more close to the body of the archdemon is a legit path.

 

Nope no need to do something so complicated,before to stab the critter in the head Loghain came near to his body,then the warden inflict that blow while he absorb the soul,is not so complicated.

btb German soldier i don't think that what you said is important anyway,because is the Warden who defeat the archdemon.

Example if i defeated the opponent, i defeated him in battle not the one who just inflict to him the final hit when this enemy is already reduced to impotence,everyone,everyone in Denerim saw that was the Warden who defeated the Archdemon and that Loghain just absorbed the light.

This is what also Loghain said "you're the reason this creature lies defeated not I" and Anora celebrate you as the HoF not Loghain because you defeated and killed the beast,Loghain absorbed only the essence inside of him,nothing of your glory is overshadowed you just allowed Loghain a redemption which is a great thing.

Gharael and Corin leaded the battle against the archdemons and the blights they didn't just inflicted the final blow against the archdemon like Loghain this is way they are remembered.

Loris on the other hand just killed the archdemon like Loghain this is way he is not remembered like those two 

The warden lead the battle ,sav ùe Thedas and build the army as well as defeat the archdemon in combat (in my game i inflicted to him the cinematic killing shot before of the Loghain redemption) i decreased his health bar to 0 Loghian just absorbed Uthemiel inside that body.

The warden commander and the redemption ending in no way put in shadow the Warden

[Illegitimus]

 

story sake only i think,honestly i don't see any problem with it if a warden kill the archdemon but another absorb his soul because his more close to the body of the archdemon is a legit path.

 

 

You don't see the physical impracticality of being closer to the archdemon than the guy who has buried his sword in it?  You don't see the dramatic problem in letting the "hero" steal all the credit from the person who actually sacrifices their life to end the threat?

[sylvanaerie]

OMG.

 

Seriously?  The person slaying the sucker is the closest warden to it.  I doubt Loghain would just stand there and watch while the Warden goes for the kill.  I could just see that lame scene played out.

 

Warden: Stand right here. (Points to the dragon's head)

Loghain: Why? (Eyes said head and the row of vicious teeth dubiously)

Warden: Because I didn't want to sex up the swamp witch, but don't want to sacrifice my own precious hide.  I need you to stand over here, touching his head so I can stab him in the body--let's ignore that the head is an actual better spot to stick, and assures death will occur almost instantaneously, especially if I can't penetrate fast enough to pierce some vital organ or blood vessel and it doesn't spend hours dying with a gut wound.  This ensures you die instead of me, when the soul blows up all your internal organs in a blaze of light, but I get the glory and the credit.

Loghain: (Disgusted noise and obscene gesture)

 

Loghain wants to do it only because he's saving Ferelden, not your warden's (who's willing to toss a fellow warden under a bus) ass.

 

Would serve your cowardly warden right if the act of killing, not proximity was what actually causes the creature's soul to enter the warden's body, and it got the warden stabbing it, not any nearby participants.  Kind of why Riordan specifies it must be a warden who delivers the fatal blow.  If just anyone could do it, he'd say, "just make sure you or Alistair/Loghain are standing nearby".

[German Soldier]

OMG.

 

Seriously?  The person slaying the sucker is the closest warden to it.  I doubt Loghain would just stand there and watch while the Warden goes for the kill.  I could just see that lame scene played out.

 

Warden: Stand right here. (Points to the dragon's head)

Loghain: Why? (Eyes said head and the row of vicious teeth dubiously)

Warden: Because I didn't want to sex up the swamp witch, but don't want to sacrifice my own precious hide.  I need you to stand over here, touching his head so I can stab him in the body--let's ignore that the head is an actual better spot to stick, and assures death will occur almost instantaneously, especially if I can't penetrate fast enough to pierce some vital organ or blood vessel and it doesn't spend hours dying with a gut wound.  This ensures you die instead of me, when the soul blows up all your internal organs in a blaze of light, but I get the glory and the credit.

Loghain: (Disgusted noise and obscene gesture)

 

Loghain wants to do it only because he's saving Ferelden, not your warden's (who's willing to toss a fellow warden under a bus) ass.

 

Would serve your cowardly warden right if the act of killing, not proximity was what actually causes the creature's soul to enter the warden's body, and it got the warden stabbing it, not any nearby participants.  Kind of why Riordan specifies it must be a warden who delivers the fatal blow.  If just anyone could do it, he'd say, "just make sure you or Alistair/Loghain are standing nearby".

I never said that it wasn't lame,i only said that it was possible.

The archdemon soul work like the one of Corypheus,if a warden just stand nearby another darkspawn will be the host because is more tainted,but in this scenario Loghain would just embrace the dragon head(and the warden can still stab the dragon in the head,that head is big),i doubt that the steel of the warden sword act like a conductor for the soul of the archdeomn,the soul it will simply go to the first taint creature is close to it,and riordan clearly explained the safe procedure to not let it reborn,what is important is taht a GW is in contact with his body,since as i said i doubt that the sword is a conductor for the soul..

Also if Loghain become a friend of the Warden he also want to save the Warden he even said that when he say

"why you should be the one to die? you proved to be a friend ecc..."

[Callidus Thorn]

So now Loghain's actually hugging the Archdemon?

 

In all honesty, a Warden actually trying to set this up would have to be such a scumbag. I can almost hear the conversation:

 

Warden: Loghain, there you are. Good, we need to talk about how we deal with the Archdemon.

Loghain: I thought we'd just hack the damned thing to pieces.

Warden: Well, yes, that part's obvious. But we need to ensure that I get all the glory of landing the killing blow, while you die in my place when the Archdemon dies. So, while I'm fighting the Archdemon, I need you to hug its head.

Loghain: ... What?

Warden: Obviously we can't have a man who almost destroyed Ferelden being hailed as a hero for slaying the Archdemon, especially after all those times you tried to kill me. So I'll take the glory while you redeem yourself by dying in my place.

Loghain: Are you telling me that you spared my life at the Landsmeet, not for my skill or experience in battle, but so that I can hug the Archdemon while you kill it, to die in your place?

Warden: Well, obviously I didn't know about it at the time, but this way you'll be far more useful to me.

Loghain: I think I'd rather fall on my own sword...

[German Soldier]

Well a warden can decide to spare Loghain just because Riordan thought that was the right choice and the warden was just listening to Riordan.After that nothing is preventing the warden to have that exact conversation @callidus thorn,i mean Loghain was ready to bang a witch (and he hate witches especially Flemeth) i bet that he wouldn't had to that for the warden ,he is in debt afterall,better to die in battle in this way that at the landsmeet in that way,so i believe that he would have accepted.

[sylvanaerie]

I never said that it wasn't lame,i only said that it was possible.

The archdemon soul work like the one of Corypheus,if a warden just stand nearby another darkspawn will be the host because is more tainted,but in this scenario Loghain would just embrace the dragon head(and the warden can still stab the dragon in the head,that head is big),i doubt that the steel of the warden sword act like a conductor for the soul of the archdeomn,the soul it will simply go to the first taint creature is close to it,and riordan clearly explained the safe procedure to not let it reborn,what is important is taht a GW is in contact with his body,since as i said i doubt that the sword is a conductor for the soul..

Also if Loghain become a friend of the Warden he also want to save the Warden he even said that when he say

"why you should be the one to die? you proved to be a friend ecc..."

 

Riordan 'clearly stated' that the person killing it must be a warden, or it jumps to the nearest tainted soulless creature.  Clearly it has to be the warden killing it as other wardens have been present at other blights and they didn't die, the warden killing it did.  Steel isn't the only thing touching the creature, your hands, elbows, hips, chest or legs could be involved in getting the leverage you'd need to slay it, steel encased body parts.  You don't pull off your armor and hug the thing ensuring skin to skin contact. Obviously steel is no deterrent to spirit magics, which (by game mechanics) bypasses armor. The game doesn't show you pelting the thing with arrows as you take it down, you're up close and personal armor and honking huge 2 handed sword in hand.  Nor does it show you removing your armor so you slay it in the altogether ensuring skin to skin contact, although the prospect raises amusing imagery in my head of my warden going into battle in his/her smalls.

 

These are mystical forces you're trying to argue about.  Souls are not physical things bound by physical rules, they can bypass armor, steel, distance.  Should it need to travel several miles to find a suitable host, it would (though that would be impractical considering the numbers of darkspawn on the rooftop and in and around Denerim).  If you want to discuss Corypheus' abilities as related to this subject even Morrigan will tell you that distance isn't a factor in this.

 

And Loghain offers himself up to the Archdemon not because he's friends with my warden (he had only 11 approval on my run), but because he wants to save Ferelden.  He also did the DR at that low approval at my warden's insistence.  Your warden asking him to do this so you live and get all the glory (thus trivializing his 'redemption' since he won't have killed it) means your warden was a pretty lousy 'friend'.  At least my Cousland disliked him and wasn't pretending to be his friend, that conversation was a lot more honest than what you're proposing.

[German Soldier]

Riordan 'clearly stated' that the person killing it must be a warden, or it jumps to the nearest tainted soulless creature.  Clearly it has to be the warden killing it as other wardens have been present at other blights and they didn't die, the warden killing it did.  Steel isn't the only thing touching the creature, your hands, elbows, hips, chest or legs could be involved in getting the leverage you'd need to slay it, steel encased body parts.  You don't pull off your armor and hug the thing ensuring skin to skin contact. Obviously steel is no deterrent to spirit magics, which (by game mechanics) bypasses armor. The game doesn't show you pelting the thing with arrows as you take it down, you're up close and personal armor and honking huge 2 handed sword in hand.  Nor does it show you removing your armor so you slay it in the altogether ensuring skin to skin contact, although the prospect raises amusing imagery in my head of my warden going into battle in his/her smalls.

 

These are mystical forces you're trying to argue about.  Souls are not physical things bound by physical rules, they can bypass armor, steel, distance.  Should it need to travel several miles to find a suitable host, it would (though that would be impractical considering the numbers of darkspawn on the rooftop and in and around Denerim).  If you want to discuss Corypheus' abilities as related to this subject even Morrigan will tell you that distance isn't a factor in this.

 

And Loghain offers himself up to the Archdemon not because he's friends with my warden (he had only 11 approval on my run), but because he wants to save Ferelden.  He also did the DR at that low approval at my warden's insistence.  Your warden asking him to do this so you live and get all the glory (thus trivializing his 'redemption' since he won't have killed it) means your warden was a pretty lousy 'friend'.  At least my Cousland disliked him and wasn't pretending to be his friend, that conversation was a lot more honest than what you're proposing.

The writers were never clear about this point,this soul however seem incapable to resist  the taint,is like a pole of attraction,the first tainted creature encountered is the first in whom    the essence jump.

A warden who ask Loghain to do something like that is not a friend but probably he can't just disobey anymore since he is bound to obey to the warden at that point.

[Tidus]

I would rather kill Loghain for his crimes at the Landsmeet and have my warden to do the honor of killing the AD or better do Morrigan's DR.

 

My warden seldom agreed with Alistair but, they agree they're not about to allow Loghain to become a warden. That asp of a man is no better then any Darkspawn and just as killable. Loghain was the Darkspawns  best ally since the horde could ravish the land unchecked when Loghain raged a needless civil war and worried more about the Orlesians  then the blight. 

[Callidus Thorn]

Well a warden can decide to spare Loghain just because Riordan thought that was the right choice and the warden was just listening to Riordan.After that nothing is preventing the warden to have that exact conversation @callidus thorn,i mean Loghain was ready to bang a witch (and he hate witches especially Flemeth) i bet that he wouldn't had to that for the warden ,he is in debt afterall,better to die in battle in this way that at the landsmeet in that way,so i believe that he would have accepted.

 
Loghain's concern is saving Ferleden, not going down as a hero or ensuring that the Warden does so. Short of him being mortally wounded, there's no way he'd simply watch The Warden do all the hard work. And if Morrigan's ritual wasn't performed, he'll make the sacrifice for Ferelden, not The Warden. He'd be more likely to knock the Warden off their feet to slay the Archdemon himself than to simply stand, waiting for his death.
 

Nor does it show you removing your armor so you slay it in the altogether ensuring skin to skin contact, although the prospect raises amusing imagery in my head of my warden going into battle in his/her smalls.

Loghain sees The Warden stripping before fighting the Archdemon.

Warden: You too Loghain.
Loghain: When you spoke of mounting the Archdemon, I didn't realise you meant it quite so literally.

Loghain was the Darkspawns best ally since the horde could ravish the land unchecked when Loghain raged a needless civil war and worried more about the Orlesians then the blight.

A civil war requires two sides, so the blame isn't his alone, and Orlais had actually invaded another country in the past under the pretext of helping defend against a Blight.

[sylvanaerie]

 

The writers were never clear about this point,this soul however seem incapable to resist  the taint,is like a pole of attraction,the first tainted creature encountered is the first in whom    the essence jump.

A warden who ask Loghain to do something like that is not a friend but probably he can't just disobey anymore since he is bound to obey to the warden at that point.

 

 

Actually the writers are quite clear.  Riordan states "the warden who kills the archdemon dies".  Not 'the most tainted thing standing near the creature gets possessed".   Alistair even reiterates it a moment later.

While full of wishful thinking, your argument misses the overlying theme of the story.  There must be a sacrifice to slay the beast.  Either sacrificing your innocence by impregnating Morrigan, or convincing the other warden to do it (if you are female).  Or you sacrifice your life to do so.

Taking all the kudos when someone else dies for you isn't sacrifice at all, and one reason I dislike the Redemption/Warden Commander endings in the first place.  This would be far worse since Loghain or Alistair die for your own selfishness, not because it requires someone to die, but because you don't want to man up and make the sacrifice.

[thats1evildude]

The soul goes into the Warden who strikes the killing blow.

 

The fact that a stab wound to the head finishes off the Archdemon is irrelevant. If you were stabbing it in the heart, the result would be the same.

[Tidus]

Callidus,That is true but, there is always two sides in a war.. One side has to be the aggressor and start the dance and that aggressor  was Loghain. The fool even stopped the Greys from doing their sworn duty to protect all of Thedas. from Darkspawn and blights and in doing so he almost destroyed Ferelden..

 

The blight could have ended at Ostagar.

[Callidus Thorn]

Callidus,That is true but, there is always two sides in a war.. One side has to be the aggressor and start the dance and that aggressor  was Loghain. The fool even stopped the Greys from doing their sworn duty to protect all of Thedas. from Darkspawn and blights and in doing so he almost destroyed Ferelden..

 

The blight could have ended at Ostagar.

 

Nonsense. On the most basic level, it's nonsense because the Archdemon didn't appear at Ostagar, making stopping the Blight impossible. It didn't need to appear, because sheer weight of numbers would accomplish the job. On another level, as we're told in Return to Ostagar, the battle was unwinnable, and even that idiot Cailan knew it. And yes, he was an idiot. He charged out of a defensive position to meet the darkspawn, might as well not have bothered bringing his archers, and ignored the advice of everyone around him, all of whom were far more experienced, and got himself killed.

 

Lgohain had a choice between standing down, and thus removing the greatest military leader Ferelden had(since none of them would trust him, due to blind loyalty to Cailan), or trying to bring them into line before the Blight advanced too far. What do you expect him to do? Stand down and watch the Bannorn squabble over who would lead Ferelden against the Blight, and hope they'd make a decision before it was too late? Let a pair of rookie Grey Wardens lead? Watch everyone else ignore the threat of Orlais(bear in mind the force at the border was significantly larger than the one Loghain defeated, and Orlais had in the past invaded another country under the guise of helping against a Blight), even if they managed to get organised?

 

I'd say more, but this is a discussion for another thread.

[sylvanaerie]

Callidus,That is true but, there is always two sides in a war.. One side has to be the aggressor and start the dance and that aggressor  was Loghain. The fool even stopped the Greys from doing their sworn duty to protect all of Thedas. from Darkspawn and blights and in doing so he almost destroyed Ferelden..

 

The blight could have ended at Ostagar.

 

Actually it couldn't since the Archdemon was still under the ground at that time directing the darkspawn, no where near Ostagar, and the Blight doesn't end unless you slay the Archdemon.  There was even a line about "no dragon has been sighted".   Cailan and Loghain didn't believe it was a blight.  I believe had they won at Ostagar, they would have gone back home secure in their 'victory' and Duncan would have been left holding the bag because the wardens knew what was going on but failed to divulge to Cailan or Loghain the truth of the matter.

 

Ostagar wasn't totally Loghain's fault.  There's plenty of blame to go around between Cailan and Duncan as well as Loghain.  Cailan for being a glory hound pressing for a fight they weren't prepared for and Duncan for not being straight up with him or his general (Loghain), making Loghain's main flaw in that fight (failing to get proper intel) worse.

 

The rest of the crap that happens, yea I agree wholeheartedly rests on Loghain's shoulders, but Ostagar, I consider a mutual f*up between the three men.  Loghain got most of the blame because he's the only one of the three who survived it.