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Kill the Archdemon without the personal sacrifice


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#26
German Soldier

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Actually the writers are quite clear.  Riordan states "the warden who kills the archdemon dies".  Not 'the most tainted thing standing near the creature gets possessed".   Alistair even reiterates it a moment later.

While full of wishful thinking, your argument misses the overlying theme of the story.  There must be a sacrifice to slay the beast.  Either sacrificing your innocence by impregnating Morrigan, or convincing the other warden to do it (if you are female).  Or you sacrifice your life to do so.

Taking all the kudos when someone else dies for you isn't sacrifice at all, and one reason I dislike the Redemption/Warden Commander endings in the first place.  This would be far worse since Loghain or Alistair die for your own selfishness, not because it requires someone to die, but because you don't want to man up and make the sacrifice.

The GW who kill the archdemon die because is the most close tainted being to it not for any other metaphysical reason
(see Dumat the  dragon of silence codex and how archdemons essence work),this is why Riordan said that thing.
If a regular soldier kill an archdemon (like Tevinter did multiples time with Dumat) the dragon will reach the nearest tainted vessel and reborn while his spirit movement can be also percived by the Wardens (actually this is how they discovered this).
The GW who inflict the killing blow die because is the most close thing to it not for any other metaphysical reason,this is way Riordan described this procedure.
Taking all the kudos of what?
As the Warden pretty much i did the whole thing as both Loghain (this one was a ridiculous waste of time since he allowed the blight to overran the nation) and the other Alistair did nothing but to follow me without making any vital decision,the kudoss are always of the warden especially if it is the warden who effectively reduced the archdemon to impotence (vital bar of archdemon to 0).
if two GW are close to the thing the essence of the archdemon will go into the GW who is more close to it who is not by force the one who killed the critter,i argumented as for how it is possible given the mole of the beast that another GW can be more attached to it than the one who inflict the blow,is not impossible and Loghain is bound to obey to any order include commit a sacrfice for the Commander.
 
Also lost of innocence isn't the main theme of DAO you lost your innocence as soon as you kill someone for whatever reason ,which is by far more dark than any dark ritual that the witches may propose.


#27
Tidus

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There's several ways in stopping a problem.. If the Darkspawn was smashed at Ostagar the AD would have been force to withdraw or have a all out attack to smash the human forces. The Ferelden Army should have been reinforced by the Grey Warden force and the Darkspawn would have been hit from the front and both flanks. Chevaliers could have struck from the rear and closed the door. Darkspawn  fini.

 

Loghain decided to turn the Greys back at the border then turn his back on his King and country by retreating. He should have been executed for  cowardice and dereliction of duty. Had his daughter not been Queen I'm sure he would have received his just reward long before the Landsmeet.   Even Wynne mention his treachery at Ostagar that lead to a slaughter. Loghain knew if he withdrew his forces the remaining force would be wiped out including the King and the last of Ferelden's GWs. 



#28
German Soldier

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There's several ways in stopping a problem.. If the Darkspawn was smashed at Ostagar the AD would have been force to withdraw or have a all out attack to smash the human forces. The Ferelden Army should have been reinforced by the Grey Warden force and the Darkspawn would have been hit from the front and both flanks. Chevaliers could have struck from the rear and closed the door. Darkspawn  fini.

 

Loghain decided to turn the Greys back at the border then turn his back on his King and country by retreating. He should have been executed for  cowardice and dereliction of duty. Had his daughter not been Queen I'm sure he would have received his just reward long before the Landsmeet.   Even Wynne mention his treachery at Ostagar that lead to a slaughter. Loghain knew if he withdrew his forces the remaining force would be wiped out including the King and the last of Ferelden's GWs. 

Loghain clearly didn't respected Cailan as a king and Cailan also wasn't a strong king enough to make his decisions on his own
(also battle in the front line as a king you're mad).
He had plenty of good ideas (waited also for the chevaliers) but he always let Loghain decide,if that witch of Flemeth didn't forced Maric to stay awa y for so long,probably the blight would have been defeated more quickly,that is why Alistair attack Yavana.


#29
Tidus

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Good King  Cailan wasn't more then a figure head according to Queen Anora. Seems Anora was ruling the country. I agree Cailan should have not been in the front lines but,he's not the first King to do that. Even Queen Celene rode with her Army to put down the Elven rebellion.. Prince Meric was just as reckless. He even romance a elven bard sent to spy on him and kill him if given the chance.



#30
Andromelek

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Loghain clearly didn't respected Cailan as a king and Cailan also wasn't a strong king enough to make his decisions on his own
(also battle in the front line as a king you're mad).
He had plenty of good ideas (waited also for the chevaliers) but he always let Loghain decide,if that witch of Flemeth didn't forced Maric to stay awa y for so long,probably the blight would have been defeated more quickly,that is why Alistair attack Yavana.


Two things here:

First: While Cailan is stupid I wouldn't blame him for being on the battlefront, that's pretty much what the actual Medieval Kings used to do.

Second: I'm really not sure why people says that Maric would been a difference, he wasn't a good tactician, at most you can say he was on good terms with Loghain, but if they would been on need of the Orlesian army, I really doubt that Loghain would have allowed it... Also Maric wasn't forced to anything, he agreed to, there's a big difference and Yavana isn't Flemeth anyway.

#31
German Soldier

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Two things here:

First: While Cailan is stupid I wouldn't blame him for being on the battlefront, that's pretty much what the actual Medieval Kings used to do.

Second: I'm really not sure why people says that Maric would been a difference, he wasn't a good tactician, at most you can say he was on good terms with Loghain, but if they would been on need of the Orlesian army, I really doubt that Loghain would have allowed it... Also Maric wasn't forced to anything, he agreed to, there's a big difference and Yavana isn't Flemeth anyway.

Because Maric would have listened to Loghain and not put himself in the front line(Loghain warned Cailan),Maric always listened to Loghain also Loghain would have respected his decisions.
As for medieval king going in battle against absurd quantity of monsters.......i never saw one of them  do the same thing.
Maric was away for too long and because of this Ferelden suffered heavy consequences.for her little help (i remember that FLemeth allowed him to have a sword but didn't helped him directly) she kept him away for so long for that stupid task to away a dormant dragon.

 

Good King  Cailan wasn't more then a figure head according to Queen Anora. Seems Anora was ruling the country. I agree Cailan should have not been in the front lines but,he's not the first King to do that. Even Queen Celene rode with her Army to put down the Elven rebellion.. 

 

an Elven rebellion not a blight,the difference is pretty big,and he was also into the front line not just in battle.


#32
Tidus

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German Soldier, At that point of the game nobody was sure there was a blight. Duncan just wanted to justify bringing more GW to the battle and that was  smart thinking on his part in case the AD did show.

 

Loghain the fool couldn't grasp that simple safe guard. In short he hated and feared the Orlesians more then worrying about the Darkspawn and the possibility of the AD showing up and he even brags that wasn't any signs of a dragon in the forest. The fool had no idea what he was facing.

 

In a blight Loghain would make a better court jester then a tactician  since he felt the GWs was not needed nor did he welcome them..



#33
Andromelek

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Because Maric would have listened to Loghain and not put himself in the front line(Loghain warned Cailan),Maric always listened to Loghain also Loghain would have respected his decisions.
As for medieval king going in battle against absurd quantity of monsters.......i never saw one of them  do the same thing.
Maric was away for too long and because of this Ferelden suffered heavy consequences.for her little help (i remember that FLemeth allowed him to have a sword but didn't helped him directly) she kept him away for so long for that stupid task to away a dormant dragon.

 

 

an Elven rebellion not a blight,the difference is pretty big,and he was also into the front line not just in battle.


We both know monsters do not exist, so I rather meant Kings fighting an absurd quantity of Ottomans.

While I agree that Maric would've heard Loghain, I don't think Loghain would have reacted different if it was his friend the dude who wanted Orlesian reinforcements, that would been too much, overall because there was precedent of Orlais seizing of another country's territory just after helping them with a Blight.

So far as I recall she also warned him of the Blight, yet Maric still agreed to go to awake the Dragons, so, you should stop blaming the powerful Witch, he took a decision and he is responsible for it.

Ok, an elven rebellion is different from a Blight, but what do you have to tell me about Drakon ?

#34
Illegitimus

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The GW who kill the archdemon die because is the most close tainted being to it not for any other metaphysical reason
 

 

 

Which doesn't change the fact that the only way to be closer to the arch demon at that moment is to be sexually molesting it.  

 

 

 

Because Maric would have listened to Loghain and not put himself in the front line

 

Considering that Maric (while king) once went on a Deep Roads expedition with the Gray Wardens...I doubt it.  Remember this is an Authority Equals Asskicking universe so it's actually effective for a monarch to personally lead troops into battle.  Even Celene's a Rogue/Bard.  



#35
Tidus

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One can get killed putting down a rebellion  just as easily as they could in a major battle. The Elves was armed and in a killing mood.



#36
Gaia300

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Taking all the kudos when someone else dies for you isn't sacrifice at all, and one reason I dislike the Redemption/Warden Commander endings in the first place.  This would be far worse since Loghain or Alistair die for your own selfishness, not because it requires someone to die, but because you don't want to man up and make the sacrifice.

Personally i didn't dislike those endings at the end of the journey The warden is the true reason of the defeat of the blight so  the HoF title as well as all the accolades are well deserved even i f it is another warden that made the sacrifice.
Also is worth nothing that the ending is forced,No one else wants to be a Grey Warden with a Blight right on everybody's doorstep?
Good God this always annoyed about the Landsmeet and really felt like Bioware slipping in terms of writing. 

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#37
Gaia300

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We both know monsters do not exist, so I rather meant Kings fighting an absurd quantity of Ottomans.

While I agree that Maric would've heard Loghain, I don't think Loghain would have reacted different if it was his friend the dude who wanted Orlesian reinforcements, that would been too much, overall because there was precedent of Orlais seizing of another country's territory just after helping them with a Blight.

So far as I recall she also warned him of the Blight, yet Maric still agreed to go to awake the Dragons, so, you should stop blaming the powerful Witch, he took a decision and he is responsible for it.

Ok, an elven rebellion is different from a Blight, but what do you have to tell me about Drakon ?

I don't remeber when Flemeth told to Maric about the blight.

Also i don't remeber Drakon battle in the front line,he was old during the 2nd blight,he gave orders to the troops as general.



#38
German Soldier

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Which doesn't change the fact that the only way to be closer to the arch demon at that moment is to be sexually molesting it.  

 

 

 

 

i was only arguing that in case of 2 GW ,during the death of an archdemon the one close to it is not necessarily the one who killed him.
The sword used to impale his head s not a mean to absorb his  soul and another warden could have been used as shield to capture his soul.
If it ruins the whole theme of sacrifice,innocence and other fluffy stuff like that i don't particularly care so long as someone will explain as for why the described method should not work


#39
Andromelek

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I don't remeber when Flemeth told to Maric about the blight.
Also i don't remeber Drakon battle in the front line,he was old during the 2nd blight,he gave orders to the troops as general.


1st: I think that's on the wiki if you want to check it.

2nd: Generals still being on the battlefront, not really safe from danger, and the Fifth Blight was a joke compared to the others, so, yes, I think Drakon can be counted

#40
Andromelek

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i was only arguing that in case of 2 GW ,during the death of an archdemon the one close to it is not necessarily the one who killed him.
The sword used to impale his head s not a mean to absorb his  soul and another warden could have been used as shield to capture his soul.
If it ruins the whole theme of sacrifice,innocence and other fluffy stuff like that i don't particularly care so long as someone will explain as for why the described method should not work


I think you are looking for an answer that only a writer could give, both Archdemons we've seen died with a stab and the dude who stabbed them was the one who died, we just don't know if the distance has anything to do with it.

#41
Donquijote and 59 others

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▲of course is a matter of distance the host near to the archdemon will absorb his soul.


OP
What you want is possible in theory just not the way you described it.
Make Loghain wear a set of armor helmet included, make your warden wear the same armor and the same helmet.
Loghain kill the archdemon but everyone will believe it was the warden.