91 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

...and it's funny because he keeps using ME3 as an example in a negative light. In one of the first lectures where we, the novice game-enthusiasts had to learn the Twine Engine, he gave a lecture in narrative design and narrative vs interaction. He got to a slide with the 3-act structure explaining how narrative coherence must work and how the 3 main acts must be connected both in events and thematically. Then he went on to show us a picture of Man of Steel and without mentioning then name he said "...then there are some works that didn't quite get this idea"

 

...and then he went to the next slide and BAM: Mass Effect 3 and once again he let the image speak for itself only adding "And of course... if the ending doesn't match up with the rest, then your audience will probably be confused or disappointed"

 

He also brought it up today again and confessed "Yes, I know I'm in Bioware mode right now". It was during a lecture on marketing where he explained value of products outside of monetary value, arguing how Bioware games have emotional value.. and again "...so players of Mass Effect 3 had good reason to be unhappy about how it turned out"

 

Just sayin' Bioware your game has become educational... in how NOT to make good games. No I won't say who my teacher is, but the institution is big enough that we have indie-devs who had their game on the showfloor of E3 last year.

[gothpunkboy89]

 You or anyone else actually tried to debate this with him?

 

I personally find the ending match pretty well with the story. And with DLC and extended cut wrapped it up fairly well.

[Linkenski]

Anyone with half a brain can tell what's wrong with the ending, and neither extended cut nor Leviathan really did anything to fix that. Leviathan sort of addresses it but that whole synthetics vs organics theme is still not what the main story was about at any point at its core.

For the ending to work the way it is the rest of the plot would need to be overhauled completely.

[gothpunkboy89]

Anyone with half a brain can tell what's wrong with the ending, and neither extended cut nor Leviathan really did anything to fix that. Leviathan sort of addresses it but that whole synthetics vs organics theme is still not what the main story was about at any point at its core.

For the ending to work the way it is the rest of the plot would need to be overhauled completely.

 

Care to point out specifics?

[German Soldier]

Mass effect is more educational than Dragon age that's for sure.

[Cheviot]

If your lector can't see the 3-act structure of Mass Effect 3, and also the way the structure repeatedly set up the ending then, well, I hope he's offering his services for free.

[iM3GTR]

Game education? That's a thing now?

[Linkenski]

Game education? That's a thing now?

Well, programming/IT bachelor specialized in game-development. Yes, that's a thing but not common in most countries I don't think.

[gothpunkboy89]

Well, programming/IT bachelor specialized in game-development. Yes, that's a thing but not common in most countries I don't think.

 

 

Still waiting for your reply.

[niniendowarrior]

As an educator myself in the same field, I frown on pointing specifics like ME3's ending as 'bad' when its quality is fairly subjective.  Instead of simply saying this is how not to do a narrative ending, I would challenge students about what didn't work for them and what would they change.  It is so easy to sink into the BioWare misery mode when you're preaching to the choir.  A few students asked me what I thought of the ME3 ending, and I could tell in how they framed the question that they really didn't have anything positive to say about it.  It's so easy to latch and launch into a tirade.  It's far more productive and fulfilling to make them think and analyse its quality than to tomato pelt.

[gothpunkboy89]

As an educator myself in the same field, I frown on pointing specifics like ME3's ending as 'bad' when its quality is fairly subjective.  Instead of simply saying this is how not to do a narrative ending, I would challenge students about what didn't work for them and what would they change.  It is so easy to sink into the BioWare misery mode when you're preaching to the choir.  A few students asked me what I thought of the ME3 ending, and I could tell in how they framed the question that they really didn't have anything positive to say about it.  It's so easy to latch and launch into a tirade.  It's far more productive and fulfilling to make them think and analyse its quality than to tomato pelt.

 

 

Whats wrong with the narrative ending?

[niniendowarrior]

I'm not going to criticize the ending because I personally felt it was ok. It was an imperfect job but I wasn't livid about it. My main beef is that the Catalyst's conversation tree was not written with clarity. I've had previous posts that go into great detail on what I'd add or change so it does feel like beating on a dead horse at this point.

[angol fear]

To criticize or not the ending depends on the point of view we have about writing. It's simple as that :

-if we consider that writing something is just creating a product for customers, so yes, the ending is bad.

-if we consider that writing can be art, with an aesthetic pupose, so the ending is good.

 

Now, just a few things about OP :

-he insists on the university level. Sorry but university level is just the beginning to become an expert reader. A lot of university level people don't really know how to read. I have studied at university, I am now teaching literature, writing about cinema, and writing a few things myself. I have talked to "university level" people, and other writers, we can't say that they knew what literature is. I sound arrogant but seriously someone talking about writing to please people, that's someone who don't care about literature, and only care about products. Talking with someone saying that we have to follow rules, it's talking with someone who doesn't care about art.

OP talked about the thee acts and how to be coherent 'He got to a slide with the 3-act structure explaining how narrative coherence must work and how the 3 main acts must be connected both in events and thematically"   so I agree with concept of coherence being a principle very important. But if that guy did have a real high level of reading he should have noticed that the three acts work to create the logic that we've got in the end. The ending is created by the themes developed in the three acts. Sorry but that university level is just a joke. People can go to the university and be bad readers. As long as people don't care about literature, about art (literature is an art, to understand it you have to study art, real writers know what art is, they spend their time thinking about it, they talk with artists) they will just talk about product. Mass Effect had more ambition than that, only people in denial will say that Mass effect was not written this way.

 

So Likenski, half a brain to tell what's wrong with the endings? But how about a full brain to understand that there is no real problem?

[gothpunkboy89]

I'm not going to criticize the ending because I personally felt it was ok. It was an imperfect job but I wasn't livid about it. My main beef is that the Catalyst's conversation tree was not written with clarity. I've had previous posts that go into great detail on what I'd add or change so it does feel like beating on a dead horse at this point.

 

I think many people have an issue because they wanted/expect it to be one way. But because it wasn't exactly how they wanted it they got angry about it not living up to their own personal hype.

[niniendowarrior]

I think many people have an issue because they wanted/expect it to be one way. But because it wasn't exactly how they wanted it they got angry about it not living up to their own personal hype.

 

There is likely a number of people who feel that way.  My hope was that logically all the lines the Catalyst mentioned made sense and some of it felt off and could've been worded better.  Other than that, I generally accept what BioWare has created.

[iM3GTR]

"Today class, your homework is to play through the entire Mass Effect trilogy."

 

I wish this really happened to me : (

[Deager]

I always think of this video clip when I think about Mass Effect 3's endings, but more importantly, Bioware games going forward. And I happen to be on board with Mike Gamble and his response.

 

https://youtu.be/00YqU7CT3XQ?t=21m14s

[Iakus]

 

So Likenski, half a brain to tell what's wrong with the endings? But how about a full brain to understand that there is no real problem?

So even when professionals call Mass Effect into question, they're still idiots who don't know what they're talking about

 

     

[straykat]

I don't mind the ending that much, but it's kind of funny this is happening.

 

I maintain that the game was already disappointing me when my crew got slimmed down.. I expected ME3 would be a convergence of teammates from the past. And there's nothing anyone can say to defend that to me.. I'll just conclude that they never liked those characters to begin with. Why would they feel anything about it?

 

It really starting sucking at Earth though. It's just a lousy level. And again, they couldn't even fit in the past crew there either...let alone any grand finale with the army you amassed. The whole thing is like a skeletal level. Early design or something. The ending was almost a welcome relief.

[themikefest]

Bioware reducing ME2 characters to cameos was bad. They favored the ME1 characters. They even made Wrex, an ME1 character, a squadmate for the Citadel dlc, but left out the ME2 characters.

 

I'm curious why couldn't Steve, Samantha, Miranda and Jack escort Shepard during the casino part.  They had Steve show up in the apartment before the casino mission. He helps in the archives. I can't come up with a reason why he couldn't escort Shepard.

[voteDC]

To criticize or not the ending depends on the point of view we have about writing. It's simple as that :

-if we consider that writing something is just creating a product for customers, so yes, the ending is bad.

-if we consider that writing can be art, with an aesthetic purpose, so the ending is good.

The thing is that these two things are not separate in this case. There is creating art for arts sake and then there is commercial art, which is designed to sell. Is the art created simply for the joy of creation automatically more valuable (in the creative sense) than the art designed to sell?

[Deager]

Going a bit off voteDC, I go instead with "is the art good?" Now, I don't care if others think it's good or not, I just care if I think it's good. If I don't, then I decide if I change it (almost never and then I move on) or if I want to and if I can. Then if I change it and like it, I'm happy. If not, I move on. Guess I hung around since I liked the changes for myself but strangely, I now sometimes like the pure original work too.

[angol fear]

So even when professionals call Mass Effect into question, they're still idiots who don't know what they're talking about

 

     

 

I've already explained it to you once, but you still don't understand... 

So again...

 

Do you think that David Guetta's music is at the same level Bach's is? Those two are "professionals". Do you think David Guetta can explain Bach's music?

Another example : I've got a friend who is architect, he is a professional and I know more things than he does about architecture.

That's the "professional" world : we are not equal. Today anyone can be a writer, an artist etc... It's just a word put on something to say that he is published etc...

Just like I said, "university level" is a joke : school only gives you knowledge, you don't get more intelligent because you went to the university. There are people who didn't go to the university and who has got more skills in reading than some "university level" people.

 

 

The thing is that these two things are not separate in this case. There is creating art for arts sake and then there is commercial art, which is designed to sell. Is the art created simply for the joy of creation automatically more valuable (in the creative sense) than the art designed to sell?

 

I don't get your point.

Mass Effect has always been written as art designed to sell. What I said is that some people disliked it because they wanted a product, they wanted Bioware to satisfy them. Some people liked it because Bioware revealed the artistic potential that was here in the trilogy (It's not the first time I see a popular piece that turned to be partially hated because people did see the artistic potential and hated when it turned to be explicitly artistic).

So yes I defend those who want to create art. Bioware did that with Mass Effect. We can dislike what they have done, but they had their own vision, their own intention and they did it till the end. From a aesthetic point of view, Mass Effect is coherent.

That's why I said that those who wanted a product disliked it, and those who consider that writing is art, and think that video game can be art, those people like the ending.

 

But for your difference between art for the sake of art and commercial art (actually it's not true, it doesn't really work this way), what will have most value isn't one or the other. The value is connected with the ambition and how it succeed, not with the reception.

[Iakus]

I've already explained it to you once, but you still don't understand... 

So again...

 

Do you think that David Guetta's music is at the same level Bach's is? Those two are "professionals". Do you think David Guetta can explain Bach's music?

Another example : I've got a friend who is architect, he is a professional and I know more things than he does about architecture.

That's the "professional" world : we are not equal. Today anyone can be a writer, an artist etc... It's just a word put on something to say that he is published etc...

Just like I said, "university level" is a joke : school only gives you knowledge, you don't get more intelligent because you went to the university. There are people who didn't go to the university and who has got more skills in reading than some "university level" people.

 

Thing is, it doesn't matter.  I could give you any answer to your question and it wouldn't matter.  Well, maybe if I agreed with whatever your stance was..

 

Thing is,  you have consistently belittled and insulted anyone and everyone who disliked the ending.  Be they student or professional, college instructor or professional writer.  It doesn't matter what credentials they can call up.  If they don't like the endings, they "don't get it" or are idiots.

 

This is just typical of your attitude.  

[angol fear]

Thing is, it doesn't matter.  I could give you any answer to your question and it wouldn't matter.  Well, maybe if I agreed with whatever your stance was..

 

Thing is,  you have consistently belittled and insulted anyone and everyone who disliked the ending.  Be they student or professional, college instructor or professional writer.  It doesn't matter what credentials they can call up.  If they don't like the endings, they "don't get it" or are idiots.

 

This is just typical of your attitude.  

 

You've been crying and insulting the developers for year now. You showed no respect for their job. And you want to turn yourself into a victim? You really are acting like a child.

 

PS : I know when someone talks about literature and when someone is in "populist" way to consider writing.