91 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Without the specific insights your lector may or may not have had into the ME3 ending, this thread isn't worth much. Someone either has valid points or they don't, and his position doesn't automatically make me more predisposed to consider him right.

[MisterJB]

Personally, I find it revolting how people choose to focus on the ending of ME3 when there is so much else to hate about it.

[Iakus]

Personally, I find it revolting how people choose to focus on the ending of ME3 when there is so much else to hate about it.

While true, you have to admit that the ending is a particularly egregious aspect of it.

[MisterJB]

While true, you have to admit that the ending is a particularly egregious aspect of it.

Yes, the ending is absolutely terrible but is it really that much worse than the very final battle being nothing but corridor shooting when the last mission of ME2 had so much variety?

The poorly written, forced plots that pretend to have depth to them by adding the word "coup"?

The complete absence of ME2 squadmates?

The turning of a previously morally ambiguous, limited organization with which Shepard could agree into multi stellar army of faceless mooks of evil evilness who are inserted into areas for no deeper reason other than Shepard having something to shoot at? *coughSurkeshcough*

The completely one sided portrayal of the Quarian-Geth conflict?

The complete alteration of the Geth nature and goals?

The solving of a 300 years old ethnic conflict by shouting through an intercom?

The...well, you get my meaning.

[straykat]

Personally, I find it revolting how people choose to focus on the ending of ME3 when there is so much else to hate about it.

 

I wouldn't say revolting, but it is strange.

[niniendowarrior]

While I find there are fine points on both sides of the spectrum, I would particularly want to point out that at the 'university' level, the students are still essentially looking up to their mentors for learning concepts, skills, and objective facts.  This makes the position of any lecturer in a classroom potentially powerful but also dangerous to the reckless.  It is OK to have an opinion on something.  It is a totally different matter to peddle an opinion as fact.  Students walk out of the classroom holding on to an opinion as objective truth and that may change or warp their perception of things.

 

If the lecturer thought the ME3 ending was bad.  That's an OK position to have.  But to simply dictate this and spew out opinion as fact is not a healthy environment for learning.  In cases like the ME3 ending, I'd like to think that instilling the principle to analyse and search for the underlying issues as critical.

[straykat]

While I find there are fine points on both sides of the spectrum, I would particularly want to point out that at the 'university' level, the students are still essentially looking up to their mentors for learning concepts, skills, and objective facts.  This makes the position of any lecturer in a classroom potentially powerful but also dangerous to the reckless.  It is OK to have an opinion on something.  It is a totally different matter to peddle an opinion as fact.  Students walk out of the classroom holding on to an opinion as objective truth and that may change or warp their perception of things.

 

If the lecturer thought the ME3 ending was bad.  That's an OK position to have.  But to simply dictate this and spew out opinion as fact is not a healthy environment for learning.  In cases like the ME3 ending, I'd like to think that instilling the principle to analyse and search for the underlying issues as critical.

 

I think you're not giving the kids enough credit. Game developers are a particularly combative/independent bunch. They're going to look fondly back on the teacher and his rants, when they work for Acme Game Corp one day and flip burgers for whatever crap mobile or AAA game they're told to do. And then they'll revolt.

 

Or at least, I'd like to think that.

[niniendowarrior]

I think you're not giving the kids enough credit. Game developers are a particularly combative/independent bunch. They're going to look fondly back on the teacher and his rants, when they work for Acme Game Corp one day and flip burgers for whatever crap mobile or AAA game they're told to do. And then they'll revolt.

 

Or at least, I'd like to think that.

 

Looking fondly at the blind rants of a teacher narrows their perspective.  There's a reason why the phrase "misery loves company" exists.

[fraggle]

The turning of a previously morally ambiguous, limited organization with which Shepard could agree into multi stellar army of faceless mooks of evil evilness who are inserted into areas for no deeper reason other than Shepard having something to shoot at? *coughSurkeshcough*

 

If you think that you have missed the point of Cerberus in this game... but ok, it seems lots of people love to complain about Cerberus being there, but not having really paid attention to their motives at all.

[Blackadderthethird]

If you think that you have missed the point of Cerberus in this game... but ok, it seems lots of people love to complain about Cerberus being there, but not having really paid attention to their motives at all.

Enlighten us then. I'm curious as to how they can divert most of their budget to revive Shepard and build a new Normandy while at the same time strenghtening their organization to the point where they can launch assaults on the Citadel and Omega

[voteDC]

If you think that you have missed the point of Cerberus in this game... but ok, it seems lots of people love to complain about Cerberus being there, but not having really paid attention to their motives at all.

For me it's the meteoric growth of Cerberus that puzzles a little.

They go from a splinter group of Alliance Black Ops, to an organisation where reviving Shepard and building the Normandy SR2 is a stretch of resources, to having the intelligence resources to match council races and being able to build a fleet capable of going toe to toe with one from the Alliance.

And yet somehow no-one notices this. Not even the Salarians or the Shadow Broker, who are said to have more info than anyone else.

Edit: Beaten to it by Edmund.

[fraggle]

@ Blackadderthethird and voteDC:

 

I was referring to Cerberus being on Sur'Kesh mostly, because I heard a lot of complaints that they didn't have business there, when they actually came to kill Eve. They do play their role in trying to prevent Shepard from uniting the galaxy. It benefits both the Reapers and TIM, who is indoctrinated anyway. So fighting Cerberus does make sense.

I agree it's somewhat a stretch to have this army, but on the other hand Cerberus had their research set up for the refugees at Sanctuary and even before that, turning them into their own nice little experiments.

If you remember the Cerberus mook we look at at Mars who looks like a husk... so this is what they did to people, people they didn't ask, people that didn't volunteer, but also to people that did volunteer (Talavi's brother for example in the Cerberus lab), and they created their army from that (as also stated by the squad mates when you poke around on Cronos Station at the end).

And actually... I didn't have the feeling it's thaaat many troops we encountered I am even tempted to count them at one point, haha.

 

Anyway, yeah, I can get how this would be unbelievable to some folks, but I don't think it's an impossible thing to do.

[Blackadderthethird]

Omega has a population of 7 million. The Citadel has a population of 13 million. On Omega a large portion of the population are armed to the teeth. C-Sec employs 200.000 people. You would need a sizeable army to attack. Even with that army the layout of a space station would mean that it would take months of door to door fighting to get anywhere.  Also an army is more than just soldiers. They need food, weapons, armor, ammo, training, transportation. I was ok with the way Cerberus was portrayed in ME1 and 2, but in ME3 it was just to much for my liking

[fraggle]

Omega has a population of 7 million. The Citadel has a population of 13 million. On Omega a large portion of the population are armed to the teeth. C-Sec employs 200.000 people. You would need a sizeable army to attack. Even with that army the layout of a space station would mean that it would take months of door to door fighting to get anywhere.  Also an army is more than just soldiers. They need food, weapons, armor, ammo, training, transportation. I was ok with the way Cerberus was portrayed in ME1 and 2, but in ME3 it was just to much for my liking

 

It's fine if you don't like it, as I've said, some people have problems with the explanation, some don't.

As for the other things: Cerberus works with Sleeper agents. Many troops being indoctrinated also likely means they don't really need food and they become really efficient in combat.

You can read through http://masseffect.wi...rberus_Forces_3, there's some more info in general.

If it is still not believable enough for you, fair enough. I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[Blackadderthethird]

I have a problem with Cerberus playing such a large role in ME3. And as mentioned previously in this thread, their role is so big that it feels like they are there for Shepard to have something to shoot at.

[gothpunkboy89]

Bioware reducing ME2 characters to cameos was bad. They favored the ME1 characters. They even made Wrex, an ME1 character, a squadmate for the Citadel dlc, but left out the ME2 characters.

 

I'm curious why couldn't Steve, Samantha, Miranda and Jack escort Shepard during the casino part.  They had Steve show up in the apartment before the casino mission. He helps in the archives. I can't come up with a reason why he couldn't escort Shepard.

 

Miranda was bus with her own thing. Jack was busy with her students out in the War. Steve doesn't have much experince in stuff like this and if it got into a shoot out any other character would have been better. Samantha falls into same category. They were literally breaking into the casino to find a crime lord. High chance of gun fire and people with less ground combat experiences not best choices to go on in infiltration team.

[gothpunkboy89]

I have a problem with Cerberus playing such a large role in ME3. And as mentioned previously in this thread, their role is so big that it feels like they are there for Shepard to have something to shoot at.

Use the reapers to much and they become less and less of a threat. Cerberus fills that role to divding who you fight to maintain the over all feeling of threat that is the reapers.

 

Like wise it plays into the sub plot that there is always a group in every cycle that thinks they are doing what is right but ultimately just distracts and delays and ultimately betrays the being of each cycle. It is actually a fairly good plot point. Every step of the way the Illusive Man thinks he is doing the best for humanity and the galaxy. But ultimately he is doing what is best for the Reapers only.  Pride gos before the Fall.

[angol fear]

I'll publicly answer a question wass12 asked me via PM.

 

I repeat it that "university level" is a joke.

First, he doesn't have to do it : is it constructive to show what we consider as failure? Personnaly I think that it's a waste of time, he should have talked about masterpieces and he should have spent time explaining how it works, why it is a masterpiece etc... but it's harder to to talk about masterpiece than to talk about "failure" (masterpieces can't be explained by "rules" while failure can).

Second, I don't get his pupose, if he wants the student to write better or to read properly, a teacher is actually someone who should help people to develop his own skills, he is not supposed to impose his opinion.

Third, at this level (university level is only the beginning) someone should have a method. When you consider from a product point of view something that is supposed to be taken from an artistic point of view, then we can say that your method is wrong. It's just like criticizing a comedy because you didn't cry. The criterias aren't the same. Mass Effect is a game, yes, but Bioware had always artistic intention for it, Mass Effect has always a post modernist piece (just like Tarantino's or Edgar Wright's films), the philosophical aspect was explicit from Mass Effect 2 so those who are supposed to be expert reader and didn't see it, well... can we really say that they analyzed it? (When I talked to Melinda Snowdgrass he admitted that she didn't analyze Mass Effect!) Sorry but expert readers are supposed to analyze, they aren't supposed to try to valid their feelings built by bad habits of reading. An expert reader is supposed to criticize from the intentions the authors had, not from the reader's feeling (I am not saying that feeling will not be part of the criticism, I am saying it's not the starting point). That's the basis of reading, if an "university level" can't do that, that's quite ridiculous because I know people who didn't go to the university and they can do that!

 

Now if you want to answer, wass12, you're welcome.

[themikefest]

Miranda was bus with her own thing. Jack was busy with her students out in the War. Steve doesn't have much experince in stuff like this and if it got into a shoot out any other character would have been better. Samantha falls into same category. They were literally breaking into the casino to find a crime lord. High chance of gun fire and people with less ground combat experiences not best choices to go on in infiltration team.

What was Miranda busy doing? If she's so busy then she wouldn't of had time for a meetup with Shepard or be at the party. The same with Jack. Steve doesn't have much experience? As if Liara has any. Remember she has nothing to support her for being a squadmate let alone having any combat experience.  Plus Steve did help in the Archives. What gunfire would've happened during the casino mission? Is there anything to support a high chance of gunfire? Samantha could distract the guards just as well as the others.

[MisterJB]

@ Blackadderthethird and voteDC:

 

I was referring to Cerberus being on Sur'Kesh mostly, because I heard a lot of complaints that they didn't have business there, when they actually came to kill Eve. They do play their role in trying to prevent Shepard from uniting the galaxy. It benefits both the Reapers and TIM, who is indoctrinated anyway.

And that is part of the problem.

TIM is indocrinated. He does not hold to a different ideology. He has not changed his plans. He is not on Shepard's side while using less than sovery methods. He is just indocrinated.

Indrocrination became the "go to" whenever the writers needed a character to do something regardless of their past characterization.

 

 

I agree it's somewhat a stretch to have this army, but on the other hand Cerberus had their research set up for the refugees at Sanctuary and even before that, turning them into their own nice little experiments.

If you remember the Cerberus mook we look at at Mars who looks like a husk... so this is what they did to people, people they didn't ask, people that didn't volunteer, but also to people that did volunteer (Talavi's brother for example in the Cerberus lab), and they created their army from that (as also stated by the squad mates when you poke around on Cronos Station at the end).

And actually... I didn't have the feeling it's thaaat many troops we encountered I am even tempted to count them at one point, haha.

 

Anyway, yeah, I can get how this would be unbelievable to some folks, but I don't think it's an impossible thing to do.

 

This is another sympton of the problem.

What if, rather than being presented as something inhuman, TIM's methods of creating shock troopers was more ambiguous?

It's a war with the fate of everything that exists at stake. I think people would be willing to volunteer to becoming super-soldiers to stop it.

This question is very similar to the Golem one in DAO but whereas that game let us make up our own minds regarding what is or isn't justified or evil, ME3 beats us with a morality stick.
 

[MisterJB]

Miranda was bus with her own thing.

Miranda was busy doing a rehash of her Loyalty Mission.
This is not a case of the character naturally evolving in a direction that places her outside the Normandy. This is the writers being unable to write significant content for ME2 squadmates because they could all be dead.
Popularity then determined the rest. Garrus and Tali are so massively popular, they had to be squadmates despite the fact Garrus' absence changes absolutely nothing.
Jacob was so massively unpopular that impregnating another woman regardless of romance status was given the green light.
Miranda was somewhere in the middle of the popularity scale.

[fhs33721]

Someone please enlighten me. Is this another episode of "Things that never happened" or is this actually legit? I seriously can't tell. On the one hand it seems reasonably plausibe but on the other hand it could very well be just a made up story to justify starting yet another "Let's all hate on the ME3 ending" thread, which ME3-ending-haters seem to crave like junkies their drugs.

[Linkenski]

While true, you have to admit that the ending is a particularly egregious aspect of it.

The way I see it: ME3's plot was HOKEY, but not something the ending couldn't have corrected. Instead it decided to make everything even worse, and not just a little but 'OMFG-I-Can't-Believe-This' worse.

[gothpunkboy89]

What was Miranda busy doing? If she's so busy then she wouldn't of had time for a meetup with Shepard or be at the party. The same with Jack. Steve doesn't have much experience? As if Liara has any. Remember she has nothing to support her for being a squadmate let alone having any combat experience. Plus Steve did help in the Archives. What gunfire would've happened during the casino mission? Is there anything to support a high chance of gunfire? Samantha could distract the guards just as well as the others.

Miranda inly shows up at party if you complete santuary and she survives. Liara was with shepard from game one. Then became an information broker who pissed off the shadow broker. She has fighting skills.

Steve was also supported by everyone else. James would defiantly look out for him if no ine else. Samantha is tech only. Not espionage or combat skillls.

[themikefest]

Miranda inly shows up at party if you complete santuary and she survives.

If I complete Sanctuary with her surviving, why can't she be on the squad?
 

Liara was with shepard from game one.

That means what? James has been with Shepard for one game and he's a squadmate.
 

Then became an information broker who pissed off the shadow broker.

And then after the broker was killed she turned into a little cry baby.
 

She has fighting skills.

She is not squadmate material. The trilogy proves that.
 

Steve was also supported by everyone else. James would defiantly look out for him if no ine else.

And that prevents him from been with Shepard during the casino mission why?
 

Samantha is tech only. Not espionage or combat skillls.

Liara has no combat skills. So why couldn't Samantha distract the guards like the other characters? Or is that now a combat skill that certain characters can only have?