1249 réponses à ce sujet

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I've never really hated Kai Leng, but I was quickly exposed to the internet's hatred of him, so it was hard for me to really form my own opinion. He's just there. And he's got nothing to do with the ending, so there are bigger fish to fry.

[Arcian]

I've never really hated Kai Leng, but I was quickly exposed to the internet's hatred of him, so it was hard for me to really form my own opinion. He's just there. And he's got nothing to do with the ending, so there are bigger fish to fry.

I'm assuming you never read Retribution? He was a pretty good character in that, but then BioWare turned him into pure garbage for ME3 and Deception.

[Toddler Tosser]

Liara T'sue.

 

Everything about her made me want to impale a toddler with a rusty needle.

[Laughing_Man]

Everything about her made me want to impale a toddler with a rusty needle.

 

Which is arguably better than tossing a toddler, and considering that toddler tossing is your natural state of mind, I'm assuming that you liked her?...

[CannotCompute]

1) Tali
2) Kasumi (very close second)
3) Jacob

[Natureguy85]

Similarly, I am of the opinion that the final beam run mission would have had more bite if one of Shep's two squaddies had been vaporized in the run up to the beam while the other had actually made it up with him/her only to take Anderson's place at that segment.

 

In everyone's first run, they likely would have had along their favorite two squaddies and been totally emotionally eviscerated. Later runs would have had them taking along squaddies they are less practiced at using but less attached to.

 

Interesting. It would certainly be dramatic. The only thing I don't like about it, and the difference between our examples is this; being forced to kill Tali is the result of an story decision made within the "world." Shepard is allowing the upload which will lead to the death of the Quarians and Tali is reacting. Shepard has to choose to stop her or not. While your idea is dramatic, after that first time, the player is making a choice entirely out of the game world looking to that future event. Of course, some people might never choose the Geth again knowing that they have to kill Tali, (those that don't like her would probably always pick it, especially if we keep the Quarians dumb.) but the actions still have character motivations to justify them.

That's why I almost like that Harbinger kills the squadmates in low EMS, but they gave no context as to why having a lower EMS caused or allowed that. You just didn't get enough points.

 

 

I can't remember the last time I chose the geth to have her take the plunge. The first time I had to scratch my head as to why she wouldn't make an attempt to stop the upload. On the dreadnought, she mentions her people are dying. You can hear the concern in her voice. What happened to that concern when Commander dumba** chose the geth? She is quick with her knife when the geth grabs Shepard. I would be curious to hear from BioWare why they had her stand there like a pathetic little wimp not doing anything about stopping the upload.

 

If I was to do it, have Tali make a move on the geth at which point an interrupt appears for the player to use to stop Tali. If the interrupt is ignored, Tali either knife's the geth or pushes it over the edge. Quarians live. Geth destroyed. If the interrupt is used, Shepard shoots Tali in the leg wounding her. At that point she struggles to use her weapon when Shepard or squadmate kills her. Or instead of killing her, kick her weapon away. While the scene shows remains of the quarian ships falling to the ground, Shepard turns to see Tali crawled to the ledge. Tali turns to face Shepard to make a comment and then falls over the edge.

 

That's pretty much how I envisioned it playing out. You're right that it is strange for Tali to be so passive after her character arc shows her becoming more independent and active.

 

 

Which is arguably better than tossing a toddler, and considering that toddler tossing is your natural state of mind, I'm assuming that you liked her?...

 

What? How is that better? I guess if the toss was off a cliff or something.

[Quarian Master Race]

I like Tali but you do bring up a good idea. For all her character growth in being more mature, forceful, and combat capable after the first game, she lets Shepard decide the fate of her people and stands passively by if Shepard doesn't listen. It would have been way more interesting, as well as jarring, to see her attack Legion and either have him kill her out of self-defense, or in my personal preference from when I have thought about this before, make Shepard stop her, possibly lethally, from stopping Legion. That would really tie into the whole theme of the weight on Shepard and his mental breakdown from that.

Nail on the head, it's completely OOC how much of a wuss she behaves if you side with the geth. Not even Homeworlds/ME1 Tali would have accepted garbage like that. She doesn't blubber, hand over the data and quietly kill herself when Jacobus and his assassin's attack her, kill her friends and mortally wound her. She fights back and fries Jacobus, this over some mere audio data, not 17 million of her compatriots. Later when Fist's killers try to take advantage of her, she smells something fishy, attacks, and takes out a couple of them with a grenade, she doesn't pout and then put a gun to her own head. 

The idea that a quarian wouldn't do a thing to save their entire species from destruction is nonsensical given how fanatical, paranoid and selfless they're portrayed as. It's ingrained into their social conditioning in a fashion as extreme as you see in many totalitarian societies on Earth (e.x. read Tali's brutally self deprecating internal monolouges in Homeworlds). For instance, their definition of treason isn't just intentional betrayal, and goes so far as to include people who unintentionally pose a danger, even those with good intentions. Remember when Tali iterates the story of what Anora'Vanya vas Selani did when charged with treason for something that she didn't even intend to harm the Fleet with? Later when put in a similar situation, Tali doesn't even have a second thought about trying to retake the Alarei from a horde of geth just to clear her name, even though all indications are that it would be suicide. Her (and Raan) just standing around doing nothing on Rannoch far more fits then definition of treason they so abhore than any of these actions, yet they do nothing (unless you get attacked, then they actually grow a spine).

It would've been more interesting if she had actually acted in character and forced us to kill her when siding with the geth, but it would have interferred with the hilarious soft sell the writers were trying to frame the decision to save the pinnochio-bots (read: murderize the quarians) as a "paragon" decision. Bioware never makes its white knight paladins get their hands dirty with things like murdering someone to get what you want because you prefer a bunch of robots to them, so Tali (also Raan, which is even more nonsensical) can't be allowed to resist your morally righteous condemnation of her people to their deaths, though you do get a paragon interrupt to try and halfheartedly save her (see, you tried! Good job there player!). You'll notice that in almost all similar situations where you are forced to kill or watch someone killed by other NPCs to get what you want, (Mordin, Wrex, Legion) the actual decision you are making is termed as a Renegade one. A similarly ridiculous analouge is taking the Paragon persuasion path with TIM, where he kindly offs himself, as opposed to the Renegade one where he angrily attacks you and forces an interrupt if you don't want to die.

Just another example of why the P/R system should be junked. You get situations like that where no action really fits into them neatly without ham handed schlock writing. Of course, that probably wouldn't have stopped the Character Derailment from writer changes that was absolutely rampant in ME3, with overly passive (if Paragon) Tali being just one example of many (gung ho pro Cure Wrex, bleeding heart anti genophage Mordin, Legion the "Real Boy", cowardly racial stereotype Kasumi, flanderized Miranda, two timing unreliable Jacob, hilariously incompetent "jump on a sword" Thane, any pro Cerberus or anti-AI Shepard just for a few examples among many).

 

The first time I had to scratch my head as to why she wouldn't make an attempt to stop the upload. On the dreadnought, she mentions her people are dying. You can hear the concern in her voice. What happened to that concern when Commander dumba** chose the geth? She is quick with her knife when the geth grabs Shepard. I would be curious to hear from BioWare why they had her stand there like a pathetic little wimp not doing anything about stopping the upload.

I thought the same when I watched it. How poorly and nonsensically the scene is written in regard to everything we've seen of Tali and the quarians previously removes any sort of pathos it was trying to invoke. It simply becomes pure comedy to watch Tali/ Raan suddenly become so incompetent as to fail to relay even basic tactical information over the radio to Gerrel ("hey the Reaper Code's coming back online, you may wanna hold fire or something") pout for a bit, then kill themselves without a single **** ever given about their species, when fanaticism is supposed to be their whole hat (along with technology). With Raan it's even more hilarious than Tali and her swan dive. For one, she doesn't even try to use the radio to communicate with the Fleet above. Then, you think it's going to result in something happening when she pulls out a gun, but then instead of simply pointing it at the murderbot and attempting to solve the problem, she turns it on herself. Like WTF?  

Given that they both act like completely different characters when you side against the geth, and suddenly have no issues deactivating the toaster (what, one human is more important to them than millions their own people or something?), I'd be willing to bet money that they didn't want to put a Renegade interrupt to shoot the quarian into a scene that was supposed to make the Paragon player feel good about themselves. That's why you get the most utterly pointless and nonsensical Paragon interrupt in the game instead.

The whole scene is schlock no matter what you do, and makes me wonder how people only started to notice the awful writing at the end of the game. The quarians can only die because Commander Dumb*** and Tali/Raan forget how to use a radio to warn Gerrel about the Reaper Code, the ability to do so is for some reason tied to Reputation points. Similarly, if you choose to kill the geth, it's only even able to attack you because said Commander Shitbird walks over and then turns their back to it. In my playthrough, it's almost always the Geth VI, who I have absolutely no reason to trust not to attack me. Why can't I just pull a gun out and train it on the toaster in case it tries anything (similar to how Shep does with Wrex and Mordin), instead of Shepard becoming a drooling imbecile, getting punked and then needing to be saved by the quarian?

[Natureguy85]

Nail on the head, it's completely OOC how much of a wuss she behaves if you side with the geth. Not even Homeworlds/ME1 Tali would have accepted garbage like that. She doesn't blubber, hand over the data and quietly kill herself when Jacobus and his assassin's attack her, kill her friends and mortally wound her. She fights back and fries Jacobus, this over some mere audio data, not 17 million of her compatriots. Later when Fist's killers try to take advantage of her, she smells something fishy, attacks, and takes out a couple of them with a grenade, she doesn't pout and then put a gun to her own head.

 

[smart stuff]

 

I generally agree, though I never had any problem with Mordin. People always talk about how adamant he is in defending the genophage, but during his mission he is clearly conflicted. He is trying to continue to convince himself that he was right as much if not more than he is Shepard.

I love that you said "jump on a sword" Thane. I didn't even like Thane and that pissed me off how stupid that scene is.

[Master Warder Z_]

I generally agree, though I never had any problem with Mordin. People always talk about how adamant he is in defending the genophage, but during his mission he is clearly conflicted. He is trying to continue to convince himself that he was right as much if not more than he is Shepard.

I love that you said "jump on a sword" Thane. I didn't even like Thane and that pissed me off how stupid that scene is.

 

I miss book Kai Leng.

 

You know how he would have approached a open confrontation with Thane? He would have drawn the Drell close as it happened in the game, but that is where the similarities end, he would basically then proceed to play to his strengths which are misdirection, and subterfuge. Basically anything from a martial arts induced stun lock, to a melee strike followed up with gunplay, he was fond of knives apparently, and also of shotguns and assault rifles...I still have no idea where they got the sword thing from...

[Pavan]

You are all forgetting this ******:

 

[Natureguy85]

I miss book Kai Leng.

 

You know how he would have approached a open confrontation with Thane? He would have drawn the Drell close as it happened in the game, but that is where the similarities end, he would basically then proceed to play to his strengths which are misdirection, and subterfuge. Basically anything from a martial arts induced stun lock, to a melee strike followed up with gunplay, he was fond of knives apparently, and also of shotguns and assault rifles...I still have no idea where they got the sword thing from...

 

You know why that would have been cool? Thane was introduced using martial arts skills. In the intro video, he is shown using martial arts skills. All of that was completely useless for what Shepard was doing so he had no real reason to be around, but it would actually have fit in this scene!

[Master Warder Z_]

You know why that would have been cool? Thane was introduced using martial arts skills. In the intro video, he is shown using martial arts skills. All of that was completely useless for what Shepard was doing so he had no real reason to be around, but it would actually have fit in this scene!

 

It would have been cool to see marine hand to hand against whatever martial art the Hanar taught em I guess...

 

I'd put my money on Leng in that scenario though because erm...he did beat a Krogan to death. I mean like straight up manhandled a Krogan before breaking its neck, which Thane can apparently do too, but erm...Leng isn't dying of lung failure.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

You are all forgetting this ******:

 

 

She's a hottie in ME3.  SO BITE YOUR TONGUE!

[Quarian Master Race]

I generally agree, though I never had any problem with Mordin. People always talk about how adamant he is in defending the genophage, but during his mission he is clearly conflicted. He is trying to continue to convince himself that he was right as much if not more than he is Shepard.

I love that you said "jump on a sword" Thane. I didn't even like Thane and that pissed me off how stupid that scene is.

Oh, he definitely is having doubts in ME2, but he resolves himself quite convincingly if you defend the genophage. I can't buy that it takes only 6 months for him to have a complete ideological shift after decades of building up both a moral and pragmatic defense of the genophage (supported by all empirical evidence via both history, simulations and common sense) and then having it reaffirmed. Mordin's a calculating type, he isn't an overly emotional idiot. The existence of a female krogan shouldn't immediately make him lose perspective on what the cure entails for the billions of other people inhabiting the galaxy (how has he never met a female krogan up to this point again?). That it does so even if Eve is dead and Wreav (though Wrex is hardly different IMO) is around, and I need to use redspeak or a gun to stop him from unleashing the Krogan horde is character derailment at its finest IMO, at least if you defended the genophage and he agreed with the rationale every step of the way.

If you challenge it, and both Eve and Wrex are around perhaps it makes slightly more sense for him to act that dogmatic, though I still think it's dumb given that by curing the genophage, you are deliberately sabotaging the power structure Wrex has based his rule upon (limited access to fertile females), and practically guaranteeing that idiots like Wreav, Uvenk or Werylock Guld will be given the means to commit mass slaughter (how's Wrex to control them if they just let their own clans multiply by the billions?). I should have been able to argue that to him regardless.
 

It would have been cool to see marine hand to hand against whatever martial art the Hanar taught em I guess...

 

I'd put my money on Leng in that scenario though because erm...he did beat a Krogan to death. I mean like straight up manhandled a Krogan before breaking its neck, which Thane can apparently do too, but erm...Leng isn't dying of lung failure.

It would have been cool to see anything other than an assassin, trained and programmed from childbirth and armed with a firearm, jump on a goddamn ninja sword held by a guy who is supposed to be a capable combatant (and presumably therefore wouldn't carry useless antiques into combat), while 3 more supposedly capable combatants allied to the former sit there with their heads in the 4th point of contact rather than doing anything to help.

The Kirrahe scene is slightly better as then Commander Shitbird and his company of N7 recruits, elite Turian military operatives, Prothean avatars of vengeance etc aren't just sitting there for 10 minutes doing absolutely nothing while Thane commits suicide by mall ninja, but Kirrahe is still an idiot for not simply using his concealment to just murder Kai Leng from cloak rather than standing there and taking a blast to the chest (he's clearly armed given he helps shoot at fleeing Leng). 

As for Leng himself, sadly the version we got was not the Retribution one, but the cereal theiving Deception one, along with some sort of built in cybernetic idiot ball generator which affects everyone around him in every scene he's in.

[Natureguy85]

Oh, he definitely is having doubts in ME2, but he resolves himself quite convincingly if you defend the genophage. I can't buy that it takes only 6 months for him to have a complete ideological shift after decades of building up both a moral and pragmatic defense of the genophage (supported by all empirical evidence via both history, simulations and common sense) and then having it reaffirmed. Mordin's a calculating type, he isn't an overly emotional idiot. The existence of a female krogan shouldn't immediately make him lose perspective on what the cure entails for the billions of other people inhabiting the galaxy (how has he never met a female krogan up to this point again?). That it does so even if Eve is dead and Wreav (though Wrex is hardly different IMO) is around, and I need to use redspeak or a gun to stop him from unleashing the Krogan horde is character derailment at its finest IMO, at least if you defended the genophage and he agreed with the rationale every step of the way.

 

See, it isn't that drastic because, as I said, he's trying to convince himself as much as Shepard. If you're arguing that Shepard's agreement should have been able to strengthen his resolve and end the conflict right there, that's different. But this has been troubling Mordin for awhile. He tells you he has visited Tuchanka to see the results and had to do so spiritiual investigation and soul searching. In ME2 his argument is that the ends justify the means, but in ME3 he no longer believes that.

That said...

 

 

 

If you challenge it, and both Eve and Wrex are around perhaps it makes slightly more sense for him to act that dogmatic, though I still think it's dumb given that by curing the genophage, you are deliberately sabotaging the power structure Wrex has based his rule upon (limited access to fertile females), and practically guaranteeing that idiots like Wreav, Uvenk or Werylock Guld will be given the means to commit mass slaughter (how's Wrex to control them if they just let their own clans multiply by the billions?). I should have been able to argue that to him regardless.

 

I forget who first pointed it out to me since I didn't initially think about it, but you're right that Wrex only has control over the other Krogan because he hs the best plan for dealing with the Genophage. I guess some might argue that the Krogan will follow him as the hero who cured it or something, but I'm thinking plenty will take the opportunity to say "Screw you, buddy. We don't need you anymore."

 

 

 

 

 

It would have been cool to see anything other than an assassin, trained and programmed from childbirth and armed with a firearm, jump on a goddamn ninja sword held by a guy who is supposed to be a capable combatant (and presumably therefore wouldn't carry useless antiques into combat), while 3 more supposedly capable combatants allied to the former sit there with their heads in the 4th point of contact rather than doing anything to help.

The Kirrahe scene is slightly better as then Commander Shitbird and his company of N7 recruits, elite Turian military operatives, Prothean avatars of vengeance etc aren't just sitting there for 10 minutes doing absolutely nothing while Thane commits suicide by mall ninja, but Kirrahe is still an idiot for not simply using his concealment to just murder Kai Leng from cloak rather than standing there and taking a blast to the chest (he's clearly armed given he helps shoot at fleeing Leng). 

 

Especially when Kirrahe was shown earlier to be badass/stupid by walking out into the open and blasting Cerberus mooks with his grenade pistol.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I'm assuming you never read Retribution? He was a pretty good character in that, but then BioWare turned him into pure garbage for ME3 and Deception.

Yeah, I didn't read it.

[TheN7Penguin]

Personally, I think no matter how the fight actually played out between Kai Leng and Thane, the result would have been the same.

Thane was ill, and basically had a pistol and some biotics.

Kai Leng had a Phantom-like-shield thing which (based on the Phantom bubble) can block biotics, and (as from a cutscene) can block gunfire too.
Also given Kai Leng's better health and all the implants and stuff he would have likely had... along with all the other weapons he would have likely had on him...

No matter how good Thane was, I think he was outclassed.

I REALLY don't like Kai Leng, but that's just how I see it.

[Natureguy85]

Personally, I think no matter how the fight actually played out between Kai Leng and Thane, the result would have been the same.

Thane was ill, and basically had a pistol and some biotics.

Kai Leng had a Phantom-like-shield thing which (based on the Phantom bubble) can block biotics, and (as from a cutscene) can block gunfire too.
Also given Kai Leng's better health and all the implants and stuff he would have likely had... along with all the other weapons he would have likely had on him...

No matter how good Thane was, I think he was outclassed.

I REALLY don't like Kai Leng, but that's just how I see it.

 

That's fine, but did he have to jump on Leng's sword?

[Onewomanarmy]

Characters IN mass effect or FAN characters of mass effect? Cause I can name quite a few of the second one xD

[Silvery]

The Kirrahe scene is slightly better as then Commander Shitbird and his company of N7 recruits, elite Turian military operatives, Prothean avatars of vengeance etc aren't just sitting there for 10 minutes doing absolutely nothing while Thane commits suicide by mall ninja, but Kirrahe is still an idiot for not simply using his concealment to just murder Kai Leng from cloak rather than standing there and taking a blast to the chest (he's clearly armed given he helps shoot at fleeing Leng). 

 

 

I had no idea what you were talking about, so I went and looked up the scene. I had no idea that this was a possibility, but then again Thane was alive in all my ME3 playthroughs, I agree with you and the last couple of post above. Thane and Tali's death scenes could have been done so much better and in a way that makes more sense. 

[frylock23]

Interesting. It would certainly be dramatic. The only thing I don't like about it, and the difference between our examples is this; being forced to kill Tali is the result of an story decision made within the "world." Shepard is allowing the upload which will lead to the death of the Quarians and Tali is reacting. Shepard has to choose to stop her or not. While your idea is dramatic, after that first time, the player is making a choice entirely out of the game world looking to that future event. Of course, some people might never choose the Geth again knowing that they have to kill Tali, (those that don't like her would probably always pick it, especially if we keep the Quarians dumb.) but the actions still have character motivations to justify them.

That's why I almost like that Harbinger kills the squadmates in low EMS, but they gave no context as to why having a lower EMS caused or allowed that. You just didn't get enough points.

 

 

 

That's pretty much how I envisioned it playing out. You're right that it is strange for Tali to be so passive after her character arc shows her becoming more independent and active.

 

 

 

What? How is that better? I guess if the toss was off a cliff or something.

 

I guess the idea of Tali dying is always a foreign one to me. I only have one playthrough where it can happen, and I chose the Quarians simply because I consider the Geth unreliable after so many flip-flops due to Reaper tampering. After seeing the end result where the Geth die anyhow, the meta of minimizing end game carnage makes the Quarians the natural choice.

 

In most of my games, I can broker peace and do it.

 

There are lot of things about the end game that really make no sense even with the extended cut to be honest.

[gottaloveme]

You know why that would have been cool? Thane was introduced using martial arts skills. In the intro video, he is shown using martial arts skills. All of that was completely useless for what Shepard was doing so he had no real reason to be around, but it would actually have fit in this scene!

 

Actually would have been good if you could split the snipers from the party and let them find their own vantage points to keep you covered. Or even to having them as extra and keeping the two squaddies you have. Just as long as they don't queer my shots.

[themikefest]

That's fine, but did he have to jump on Leng's sword?

Why did he not shoot Leng when he had the opportunity?

 

The whole thing was crap.

 

It was a case of dumb, dumber and dumbest. They are represented by Leng, Kirrahe and Thane. I'll let you figure out which one is which. And guest stars, Commander dumba** and 2 squadmates, worthless and useless.

 

The moment Leng landed on the floor behind the councilor, he should've killed the councilor at that moment. But since he's not an assassin, even though he's called one, he didn't. Had he did that, he would be running for his getaway just as Shepard jumps out the window. Thane or Kirrahe live since they aren't there at that time.

 

When Leng has his palm facing the councilor with Shepard and squad with weapons drawn at him, Thane shows up with his pistol up against Leng's head. Had he shot the guy at that point, the rest of the scene would not of played out the way the game shows. Not sure if Leng would've been injured, but most likely he would've tried to escape. Thane would most likely not of been stabbed.

 

The same with Kirrahe. He's in cloak mode. He had the perfect opportunity to disable Leng or at least injure the guy enough to where he may not of been able run away to his getaway vehicle.  Instead he takes a body shot from the palm of Leng.

 

Thane and Leng fight. Leng is thrown to the ground. Not bad. What are Shepard and squad doing? Someone will post an image showing what they're doing I'm sure. A whole lot of nothing. Leng does his huffing and puffing thing while Thane fires his weapon once and decides to play chicken. He lost. But it was for a good cause. He was showing everybody what not to do. Leng gets away.

 

Shepard chases him. Kirrahe dies, but Shepard asks Thane how bad is it. At this point, Thane could've redeemed himself by shooting Shepard in the gut saying "You tell me dumba**?

[frylock23]

Well, in Thane's defense he did tell Shep at the hospital that he couldn't track the mental damage.

 

But basically, yep. The Councilor should have died, but Kai Leng was incompetent or a petty show-off or both. Thane didn't pull the obvious move. As an assassin, it's about killing your target before they know you're there. I've never seen the Kirrahe version, so I can't comment on it.

[CrimsonN7]

Don't really have a character I hate in the ME universe. Dislike or think they're lame yeah sure but hate is too strong a feeling. However in the DA universe, I sure do hate a few there.