1249 réponses à ce sujet

[BloodyMares]

Yes, Ashley is very rude, particularly to Tali and Liara.

Is she rude to Tali in ME3? Because I don't remember Ash having any issue with Tali in ME1.

[Elhanan]

Is she rude to Tali in ME3? Because I don't remember Ash having any issue with Tali in ME1.

Ashley could be the other woman vs Liara in ME1, but that had little to do with any claim of racism. With only one exception, Kaiden is the one left on Virmire; no more migraines either.

[Natureguy85]

Is she rude to Tali in ME3? Because I don't remember Ash having any issue with Tali in ME1.

Tali will make a suggestion in one of the after mission debriefings and Ashley will jump on her for it.

[BloodyMares]

Tali will make a suggestion in one of the after mission debriefings and Ashley will jump on her for it.

I didn't see that in my game. Liara always makes the suggestion.

[ladyofnemesis0108]

I wouldn't exactly say hate, but...I really didn't like Liara

In my opinion she's just so...so...clingy

Not to mention, insensitive: oh your planet is doomed? Doesn't matter, we've got work to do. Thessia is lost?! *cries* (where's my renegade interrupt to slap some sense into her?)

I liked her in the first game, but after that...my liking for her went down a couple of notches to the point where I never use her in my party anymore (except when I have to) ^^;

[Natureguy85]

I didn't see that in my game. Liara always makes the suggestion.

 

It may be a different briefing or it may only be if Liara isn't there.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't exactly say hate, but...I really didn't like Liara

In my opinion she's just so...so...clingy

Not to mention, insensitive: oh your planet is doomed? Doesn't matter, we've got work to do. Thessia is lost?! *cries* (where's my renegade interrupt to slap some sense into her?)

I liked her in the first game, but after that...my liking for her went down a couple of notches to the point where I never use her in my party anymore (except when I have to) ^^;

 

That's because they ruined her after the first game because they went from space opera to action film.

[Lulupab]

I don't see how Ashley is racist. Every second turian you meet has the same attitude towards humans as Ashley. Humans and turians are mistrustful of each other after the First Contact War. Ashley didn't serve with the aliens before, all she knows is third-hand knowledge about them. Her only fault is that she's ignorant about aliens. She didn't have a first hand experience dealing with them like Kaidan had on Jump Zero. Many say she's racist because of one sentence "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" but you've got to be honest with yourself: how can you see which alien can talk and which alien is just a mindless animal before you try to talk to one? For example the Keepers are weird creatures that don't talk and they kinda look like grasshoppers. Elcors look kinda like elephants and hanar are literally jellyfish. You can't blame children when they say something rude without understanding that it's not a nice thing to say. Ashley is like a child sees all these weird-looking aliens for the first time and just states her observation that you can't really argue with.

 
So basically you're saying Ashley is like Sera from DA:I. Not a bad comparison as far as comparisons go.
 

It's not racism. Repeating it won't make it so. Yes, Ashley is very rude, particularly to Tali and Liara.
The issue isn't working with aliens at all, it's relying on them and trusting them with your most sensitive information.

I think you except racism to be something very offending like how it is in our world. Simply keep the implications of contemporary racism out of it. Ashley is technically a racist, she is not willing to get to know aliens and/or work with them for the sole reason of them being aliens. That doesn't mean she is going kill them for it. 

[BloodyMares]

 
So basically you're saying Ashley is like Sera from DA:I. Not a bad comparison as far as comparisons go.

I didn't play DA:I so I can't say much about this comparison.

[Natureguy85]

 
So basically you're saying Ashley is like Sera from DA:I. Not a bad comparison as far as comparisons go.
 

I think you except racism to be something very offending like how it is in our world. Simply keep the implications of contemporary racism out of it. Ashley is technically a racist, she is not willing to get to know aliens and/or work with them for the sole reason of them being aliens. That doesn't mean she is going kill them for it. 

 

Wrong. She is distrustful of them because they have allegiance to their own people and not to the alliance. If I were in the US military and didn't want an Iraqi soldier that I was working with on a joint mission near sensitive information or technology, that wouldn't make me racist. The closest she comes is making a remark or two that could be seen as racist, such as if in a love triangle where she will say something like she's ok if Shepard wants to be with some alien, but that is lashing out from frustration, jealousy, and fear, and I'm not sure it reflects a general attitude.

[Lulupab]

Wrong. She is distrustful of them because they have allegiance to their own people and not to the alliance. If I were in the US military and didn't want an Iraqi soldier that I was working with on a joint mission near sensitive information or technology, that wouldn't make me racist. The closest she comes is making a remark or two that could be seen as racist, such as if in a love triangle where she will say something like she's ok if Shepard wants to be with some alien, but that is lashing out from frustration, jealousy, and fear, and I'm not sure it reflects a general attitude.

 

That would be true if she was only like that against military types. Her attitude is same when it comes to civilians as well. 

[Shechinah]

I don't see how Ashley is racist. Every second turian you meet has the same attitude towards humans as Ashley. Humans and turians are mistrustful of each other after the First Contact War. Ashley didn't serve with the aliens before, all she knows is third-hand knowledge about them. Her only fault is that she's ignorant about aliens. She didn't have a first hand experience dealing with them like Kaidan had on Jump Zero. Many say she's racist because of one sentence "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" but you've got to be honest with yourself: how can you see which alien can talk and which alien is just a mindless animal before you try to talk to one? For example the Keepers are weird creatures that don't talk and they kinda look like grasshoppers. Elcors look kinda like elephants and hanar are literally jellyfish. You can't blame children when they say something rude without understanding that it's not a nice thing to say. Ashley is like a child sees all these weird-looking aliens for the first time and just states her observation that you can't really argue with.

 
While I understand your point, I would like to note that "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" is not the only thing some people use. There are other dialogue bits such as the example below.

Example: During a dialogue exchange, she brings up Liara and Shepard’s potential interest in her: she believes it is either because she’s the only person Shepard can date according to fraternization rules or because Shepard is trying to make nice with the aliens for political reasons. She never considers Shepard might simply like Liara. It may be that it was supposed to allude to jealousy but because of what she presumes are the reasons… well. It seems like she has trouble believing that a human might be interested in an alien without some "mitigating" circumstances like that all other humans are unavaliable so the alien is the only one or their interest is purely political and thus not genuine.
 
I don’t think she is aware of it and I don’t think she’s hateful towards aliens as she advises Shepard to talk to Liara about her mother after Noveria because what happened has to have been hard for her.

I should note that I like Ashley because she seems very human in the first Mass Effect with her faith, poetry. Even her indications of xenophobic mistrust without the hatred was something I liked because the way it was handled seemed natural and to be expected even generations after the First Contact War because such a mistrust can be passed down. Ashley grew up in a household that might have a dislike towards an alien race.

 

Unfortunately, I felt Ashley lost a lot of her human elements after the first game. This was a shame because I would have liked to see more humans like Ashley in the series. She provided a sense of human culture like her poetry and even faith that I felt disappeared after the first game. Maybe if we'd seen more humans who exhibited culture, I would not have begun feeling like humanity in the Mass Effect was culturally bland in comparison to the other races.

[Natureguy85]

That would be true if she was only like that against military types. Her attitude is same when it comes to civilians as well. 

 

Where? I don't remember.

[Natureguy85]

Is she rude to Tali in ME3? Because I don't remember Ash having any issue with Tali in ME1.

 

I found it. Liara isn't present;

 

[BloodyMares]

 
While I understand your point, I would like to note that "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" is not the only thing some people use. There are other dialogue bits such as the example below.

Example: During a dialogue exchange, she brings up Liara and Shepard’s potential interest in her: she believes it is either because she’s the only person Shepard can date according to fraternization rules or because Shepard is trying to make nice with the aliens for political reasons. She never considers Shepard might simply like Liara. It may be that it was supposed to allude to jealousy but because of what she presumes are the reasons… well. It seems like she has trouble believing that a human might be interested in an alien without some "mitigating" circumstances like that all other humans are unavaliable so the alien is the only one or their interest is purely political and thus not genuine.
 

Unfortunately, I felt Ashley lost a lot of her human elements after the first game. This was a shame because I would have liked to see more humans like Ashley in the series. She provided a sense of human culture like her poetry and even faith that I felt disappeared after the first game. Maybe if we'd seen more humans who exhibited culture, I would not have begun feeling like humanity in the Mass Effect was culturally bland in comparison to the other races.

And why would she? I don't think that in times of ME1 relationships between different species were a common thing in human society. When Liara states her interest in Shepard, he can answer "How could you and I have a relationship? We're not even the same species." In the same manner, it's weird for Ash to imagine that someone would want to have a relationship with other species. Not because she doesn't respect aliens but it's just a new concept that she doesn't understand and she doesn't understand how a human being can find another alien attractive. I could even reach and say that she considers asexual romantic relationships between humans to be just as weird. Ashley is a simple, down-to-earth person. Suspecting some political reasons behind a cross-species relationships is only natural for her.

And in ME3 they really dumbed down her character.

[Lulupab]

Where? I don't remember.

 

What do you mean? She doesn't say she is strictly against their military types.

 

For example Garrus is not working for Turian military in ME1, he is part of C-Sec and we know for a fact that he has protected humans on citadel as well.

 

Liara is not part of Asari government even if her mother was, she is an independent researcher on protheans.

 

Tali is a civilian pilgrim on ME1

 

Wrex is mercenary who doesn't care about anyone or anything except the money he is getting.

 

None of the aliens on Normandy represent the military of their respective races.

[maia0407]

I'm sure he's been mentioned, but I hate Kai Leng more than the star child. From the first moment I saw his weird anime design, I was yanked right out of the story in confusion over how this character wandered in from another genre. Then samurai wanna-be spoke, and his try hard "I'm a badass" speech landed him squarely in douche land. I didn't even enjoy killing his smarmy ass. I just wanted his scenes to be done so I could stop cringing.

[Vortex13]

Well Chris L'Etoile wrote her in ME 1, but not in ME 2 or 3. Ashley had nuance of character in ME 1, she did not in ME 2 or 3.

[BloodyMares]

What do you mean? She doesn't say she is strictly against their military types.

 

For example Garrus is not working for Turian military in ME1, he is part of C-Sec and we know for a fact that he has protected humans on citadel as well.

 

Liara is not part of Asari government even if her mother was, she is an independent researcher on protheans.

 

Tali is a civilian pilgrim on ME1

 

Wrex is mercenary who doesn't care about anyone or anything except the money he is getting.

 

None of the aliens on Normandy represent the military of their respective races.

Check Human Diplomatic Relations

Garrus is not a military but he is a turian and there's animosity between species after the First Contact War (kinda like American/Russian relationship)

Liara is Benezia's daughter and there's a possibility that she's in cahoots with them.

Tali is a quarian and quarians are responsible for creating the Geth so basically nobody likes them in ME1

Krogan are considered untrustworthy thugs and nobody would want a criminal on an advanced warship.

[Natureguy85]

What do you mean? She doesn't say she is strictly against their military types.

 

For example Garrus is not working for Turian military in ME1, he is part of C-Sec and we know for a fact that he has protected humans on citadel as well.

 

Liara is not part of Asari government even if her mother was, she is an independent researcher on protheans.

 

Tali is a civilian pilgrim on ME1

 

Wrex is mercenary who doesn't care about anyone or anything except the money he is getting.

 

None of the aliens on Normandy represent the military of their respective races.

 

Oh, I thought you meant outside of the crew. Anyway, it doesn't matter if they are military or not as they are still loyal to their species, with the possible exception of Wrex, though he obviously at least still ares about the Krogan generally. And in their respective cultures, Garrus and Tali may as well be military. Admiral Mikhailovich refers to them as alien nationals, not caring that they are not military. They don't need to be military, they just need to be patriots. 

 

What's most interesting though is who gets mentioned. Ashley mentions Garrus and Wrex, the two more combat oriented. The Admiral will also mention Asari, referring to Liara. Neither mention the quiet Quarian girl, the one most capable of learning from and reproducing technology from the Normandy.

[Lulupab]

Check Human Diplomatic Relations

Garrus is not a military but he is a turian and there's animosity between species after the First Contact War (kinda like American/Russian relationship)

I know about them, however Normandy is half a Turian ship and the purpose of the ship is decided by both races. There is animosity but the superiors have put them aside for the most part. Its the common soldiers like Ashley who still keep grudges, and that's why they won't be promoted because of their way of thinking. Hence the change of Ashley's character in ME3 and the promotion.
 

Liara is Benezia's daughter and there's a possibility that she's in cahoots with them.

So sins of father? (or mother in this case). I doubt Ashley would like to be called a coward for this very reason.
 

Tali is a quarian and quarians are responsible for creating the Geth so basically nobody likes them in ME1

Not liking them is a lot different than acting racist towards them. No one would be a better ally versus Geth than Quarians. As I said skepticism is understandable, but above that not so much.
 

Krogan are considered untrustworthy thugs and nobody would want a criminal on an advanced warship.

Not different than any mercenary. Krogan mercenary are not any more thugs than blue suns or eclipse. The focus here should be on him being a mercenary, not a Krogan.

[Lulupab]

Oh, I thought you meant outside of the crew. Anyway, it doesn't matter if they are military or not as they are still loyal to their species, with the possible exception of Wrex, though he obviously at least still ares about the Krogan generally. And in their respective cultures, Garrus and Tali may as well be military. Admiral Mikhailovich refers to them as alien nationals, not caring that they are not military. They don't need to be military, they just need to be patriots. 

 

What's most interesting though is who gets mentioned. Ashley mentions Garrus and Wrex, the two more combat oriented. The Admiral will also mention Asari, referring to Liara. Neither mention the quiet Quarian girl, the one most capable of learning from and reproducing technology from the Normandy.

 

Of course, but I think Ashley takes it too far. Many people are cautious about the aliens, including Kaidan but none take it as far as Ashley.

 

i think they see Tali as harmless because Quarians are in no position to harm any other species. If anything the technology helps them fight the Geth.

[DuskWanderer]

The Krogan are a messed up race who have been "uplifted" way before they were ready and half the galaxy screwed them. The whole Korgan race is skeptical about aliens, Wrex is actually more open minded than most Krogan.

 

This doesn't apply to Ashley, she is racist because she doesn't like aliens, period.

See, this is precisely what I mean. Wrex treats not-krogan badly for being not krogan, and he is given a pass for it because he is Wrex. You might find Ashley petty, but Wrex put the entire galaxy in danger for his racism in 3. 

 

Also, they didn't "screw" anyone. The krogan wanted colony planets, even ones that were already claimed, and went to war because people didn't give them treats for being the special race. 

 

It's racism, pure and simple. We see it too with the asari. Either acknowledge that it's true, or admit you're giving the krogan a pass.

[Lulupab]

See, this is precisely what I mean. Wrex treats not-krogan badly for being not krogan, and he is given a pass for it because he is Wrex. You might find Ashley petty, but Wrex put the entire galaxy in danger for his racism in 3. 

 

Also, they didn't "screw" anyone. The krogan wanted colony planets, even ones that were already claimed, and went to war because people didn't give them treats for being the special race. 

 

It's racism, pure and simple. We see it too with the asari. Either acknowledge that it's true, or admit you're giving the krogan a pass.

 

I'm not giving Krogan a pass though, only Wrex. He doesn't care about races who were not involved in the war with the Krogan. His problem is not with aliens, its with Turians and Salarians. He is indifferent towards other races and cautious at worst. Ashley's problem is personal and targets anything that's not human.

 

The Human-Turian war was stopped pretty quickly and before things escalated. Neither side used a full fleet, but same cannot be said about the Krogan issue with Turians and Salarians. It took many years and deaths and more importantly the effects of that war are still present.

[Natureguy85]

I know about them, however Normandy is half a Turian ship and the purpose of the ship is decided by both races. There is animosity but the superiors have put them aside for the most part. Its the common soldiers like Ashley who still keep grudges, and that's why they won't be promoted because of their way of thinking. Hence the change of Ashley's character in ME3 and the promotion.

 

So sins of father? (or mother in this case). I doubt Ashley would like to be called a coward for this very reason.

 

That's not true. The Turians helped to develop the Normandy, but it is an Alliance Vessel. There's no indication that it's only common soldiers that hold grudges. Again, look at Admiral Mikhailovich. He stresses "Turians" when complaining about aliens on board. The blacklisting of the Williams family is also an indication that higher ups aren't fond of aliens, specifically Turians.

 

It wasn't Ashley's way of thinking that prevented promotion, but rather the blacklisting from her Grandfather surrendering Shanxi. Ashley doesn't like it. She explains this very clearly in the first game.

[Dalinne]

See, this is precisely what I mean. Wrex treats not-krogan badly for being not krogan, and he is given a pass for it because he is Wrex. You might find Ashley petty, but Wrex put the entire galaxy in danger for his racism in 3. 

 

Also, they didn't "screw" anyone. The krogan wanted colony planets, even ones that were already claimed, and went to war because people didn't give them treats for being the special race. 

 

It's racism, pure and simple. We see it too with the asari. Either acknowledge that it's true, or admit you're giving the krogan a pass.

I don't see Wrex being racist in ME3. I see him as an oportunist for a good reason: all Wrex's arc is about 1)Realize he cares about his people and he want to change the krogan destiny 2) Control krogan tribes with a balanced use of diplomacy and brute force. Also, change the milennial self destructed Krogan attitude and their non focus agresive behaviour 3) Cure his people disease during a war probably it will decimate Krogan population. And he wants to recover his people culture and balance.

 

I think people don't see why Wrex push so much the Genophage cure in ME3: the Galaxy is asking the Krogan people to be cannon fodder. Wrex assumes that but only if they had a chance of survival and recover later. Is it opportunistic? Yes. Is it bad or out of character? I don't think so. Of course things can go south after war, but first you have to win a war in the first place!