382 réponses à ce sujet

[Kynare]

I'm all for it. For me, psychological opposition > physical opposition. The Mindoir survivor who wanted to kill herself... touchy subject, but my heart was pounding and felt so warm and fuzzy when my Shepard was able to talk her down and give her a hug. Putting my character through these kinds of hardships is what really fleshes them out for me. I hope there's more instances that add that kind of depth to the new protagonist.

 

It might not be a good idea to force it onto the PC themselves (that should be reserved for their past, which is left up to player interpretation), but I wouldn't balk at sensitive subjects being presented within the story from NPCs or crew members. It's perfectly possible as long as they're never explicit about it.

 

On that note, the last time they tried bringing up religion and human's nature to discriminate/distrust (Ashley ME1) people wouldn't stop whinging. Which is a shame to me. I liked her character because she offered a different perspective and dynamic to the PC. Again, adding depth to a universe that obviously has many different types of people, beliefs and personalities, where good and bad things happen. I feel like you can't just have a good sci-fi story (based in the future) without some sensitive topics of modern day being brought up.

[Donk]

DAI has an interview where they removed a scene where Leliana impostor seduced the Inquisitor, but it was removed because they perceive it as rape by one of the female staff members. I'm just waiting to hear what people's thoughts on this, and I hope people can avoid the snarky remarks in general. Certain topics like child killing or rape or racism are very sensitive since people can be affected by it, but it also brings out certain awareness and a strong emotion and connection to the characters if it fits with the narrative. I'm not talking about intentionally forcing sensitive topics into the game, but if it's organic and happen to fit the characters, I feel like it should be used. It's not also about being edgy or pushing the envelop, but if it's a topic that happens to come up in the game, if they should avoid or try to put in the alternatives. 

 

One of the most powerful scenes I found in video games is with the character Angela from Silent Hill 2, which is about personal purgatory. She was sexually abused by her father, while nothing ever mentioned explicitly, her manifestation created a monster with a bed with 2 figures, and the batons coming in and out of the holes. She always carries a knife with her, and in the end, James finds himself in her purgatory with fire everywhere, indicating how she feels about her life all the time. She killed her father and running away, looking for her mother, who ignored her suffering, mistaking others for her mother. It also created a contrast between her and the main character, James, who also killed someone that caused his suffering. The character also brings out some very emotional pain and state of mind where she talks to James like he has savior complex and point out the hypocrisy and weakness in his behaviors. It's very powerful and pulls the audience in when uses organically. 

 

 

There are several examples, but I don't want to detract from the discussion, and I'm not sure if it'd get locked since it is a sensitive topic, and I don't know if people would start mocking and attacking. I do see why some people may not like certain topics, especially if it's personal experience, and some topics can get pretty cliche. It's just about artistic vision vs. sensitivity, I guess. 

 

Personally, such subjects don't bother me one bit. I actually like dark themes in any medium of fiction. I think it makes it interesting; I may get pissed off however if there are no consequences, such as can be seen in Game of Thrones.

 

However, using for example; the city elf Origin story in DAO, where the noble bastard can be killed for what he did, I'm cool with.

 

Having said that, many people make claims as to how DA:I's dark themes have been watered down to appease "SJWs" or people who may get triggered or offended by certain content. On the flip side, I see complaints of the content being offensive anyway; some I personally find absurd such as:

"Iron Bull raped Dorian"

"The Sera romance = abuse"

 

There was one such claim on these forums a while back that Cassandra rapes in the inquisitor.

 

My question is: how far do you have to go with censoring content?

[Seraphim24]

DAI has an interview where they removed a scene where Leliana impostor seduced the Inquisitor, but it was removed because they perceive it as rape by one of the female staff members. I'm just waiting to hear what people's thoughts on this, and I hope people can avoid the snarky remarks in general. Certain topics like child killing or rape or racism are very sensitive since people can be affected by it, but it also brings out certain awareness and a strong emotion and connection to the characters if it fits with the narrative. I'm not talking about intentionally forcing sensitive topics into the game, but if it's organic and happen to fit the characters, I feel like it should be used. It's not also about being edgy or pushing the envelop, but if it's a topic that happens to come up in the game, if they should avoid or try to put in the alternatives. 

 

One of the most powerful scenes I found in video games is with the character Angela from Silent Hill 2, which is about personal purgatory. She was sexually abused by her father, while nothing ever mentioned explicitly, her manifestation created a monster with a bed with 2 figures, and the batons coming in and out of the holes. She always carries a knife with her, and in the end, James finds himself in her purgatory with fire everywhere, indicating how she feels about her life all the time. She killed her father and running away, looking for her mother, who ignored her suffering, mistaking others for her mother. It also created a contrast between her and the main character, James, who also killed someone that caused his suffering. The character also brings out some very emotional pain and state of mind where she talks to James like he has savior complex and point out the hypocrisy and weakness in his behaviors. It's very powerful and pulls the audience in when uses organically. 

 

 

There are several examples, but I don't want to detract from the discussion, and I'm not sure if it'd get locked since it is a sensitive topic, and I don't know if people would start mocking and attacking. I do see why some people may not like certain topics, especially if it's personal experience, and some topics can get pretty cliche. It's just about artistic vision vs. sensitivity, I guess. 

 

Everyone always turns into a spaz when I try and talk about these things, but it seems like you can broach these things without that happening, and gets other to talk, thus I encourage you to do so, and shall simply observe for now.

[rashie]

Topics that can be controversial shouldn't really be avoided just because someone might get upset, but all the same they need to be done tastefully with an actual thought provoking point to them beyond just being edgy.

 

Things like the final scene in the ME2 DLC Overlord is a good example of that.

[SnakeCode]

No. Offense is taken, not given. Censoring a topic because it could potentially offend someone somewhere could easily be the start of a slippery slope. Everyone finds something offensive after all. Being offended by something should never be grounds to have it banned from being depicted, whether it's gay characters, "buxom blondes," cat suits, a staff with a naked female form atop it, or anything else.

 

 

Just let the devs make what they want to make.

[SnakeCode]

The only topic I really don't want to see is terrorism, but I guess that won't make it in anyway. Everything else is fair game if it is handled correctly and well written

 

BioWare has already handled terrorism. You have a DA2 avatar so I trust you haven't forgotten about Anders?

[Laughing_Man]

It's kind of like how they expected the ending of ME3 to make people think in all sorts of ways, and it just resulted in an angry fanbase. That wasn't even touching on a touchy social issue, that was just the end of a game. The writers must be very careful when handling pretty much anything, lest blowback occur.

 

It seems that no matter how many walls of text will be written about the ME3 ending some people still don't get it. (or are more comfortable pretending not to)

 

Yes, the ME3 ending was a rather depressing ending, and some people wanted a happy ending and therefore disliked it.

 

However, that was not the only or main reason that caused the ending to become almost universally hated.

The ending had many problems, flawed logic (things that simply didn't make sense), it was not really in line with the overall tone and theme of the ME trilogy, and like with many other video game failures - it was very obviously rushed.

 

I may get pissed off however if there are no consequences, such as can be seen in Game of Thrones.

 

Realistic story telling is in most ways much better than poetic justice or Disney morality.

 

There are consequences in GoT, it's just not the Bioware signature preachy and hamfisted approach.

 

No. Offense is taken, not given. Censoring a topic because it could potentially offend someone somewhere could easily be the start of a slippery slope. Everyone finds something offensive after all. Being offended by something should never be grounds to have it banned from being depicted, whether it's gay characters, "buxom blondes," cat suits, a staff with a naked female form atop it, or anything else.

 

I agree with the theory, but that still means that you should use your buxom blondes in catsuits only where it makes sense, and not use childish camera angles.

 

Otherwise the entire thing comes of as laughable from a logical perspective rather than offensive for the easily offended.

[Seraphim24]

Realistic story telling is in most ways much better than poetic justice or Disney morality.

 

And realistic poetic justice is better than either realistic story telling or Disney morality.

 

 

 

[Laughing_Man]

And realistic poetic justice is better than either realistic story telling or Disney morality.

 

It's funny when it happens sure, but it usually happens too often in video games.

[Seraphim24]

It's funny when it happens sure, but it usually happens too often in video games.

 

Most things people encounter are either a realistic sort of broken morality or a kind of fake holistic Disney one, which tends to lead to this either or notion in various places like gaming or comics etc.

 

I myself will always hold out hope for a non-fake holsitic non-broken realistic poetic morality story, because in the instances it does happen.... wow.

 

Gosh darn dilly darn I said I was just going to observe *smoke bomb*

[Ruadh]

Absolutely not. Provided they fit in the narrative, there's no topic (or opinion) that should be held sacred, especially not in defense of feelings.

 

For me personally, one of the joys of Bioware games are the stories and themes crafted around the human experience. Just like real life, these characters go through both joyous and difficult experiences, and it shapes who they are and how they interact in these worlds; it's how we get a range of diverse characters that aren't predictable, one-note borefests. (Except Jacob haha)  

 

To filter out potentially sensitive subjects, simply to appease the meek, would dilute the essence of what makes these games enjoyable in the first place. Bad **** happens, ignoring it will not make it go away.

[9TailsFox]

The only topic I really don't want to see is terrorism, but I guess that won't make it in anyway. Everything else is fair game if it is handled correctly and well written

To late.

[Spacepunk01]

All topics should be on the table. Games can play a very important/meaningful role in presenting sensitive topics to a broad audience. If done well, it can have a very positive effect. We cannot be afraid to explore difficult issues in games. Many gamers and developers view games as the new artform - they want games to be recognized as art. I agree. It is art. This is why it's so important that we do not start censoring content. Through art we should be able to explore life and shine a light on topics that are hard to talk about in real life. In some ways art is a kind of safe space, where we can learn more about life and about ourselves, without much risk.

[Ahglock]

I pretty much hate the idea of trigger warnings and safe spaces and other censorship to avoid offending people.

On the other hand this is entertainment they are marketing. So it's a fine line in how things are handled in how it may negatively impact sales.

[9TailsFox]

I pretty much hate the idea of trigger warnings and safe spaces and other censorship to avoid offending people.

On the other hand this is entertainment they are marketing. So it's a fine line in how things are handled in how it may negatively impact sales.

How else we raise over-sensitive people who can't live in real world.

[Salarian Master Race]

Fun fact:  In order to be offended by something, you have to make the conscious decision to be offended.  It is a choice.

[Ieldra]

I think censoring anything thats makes people uncomfortable is bad for any kind of story that wishes to be taken seriously. For instance, I found DAO's City Elf origin for a female Warden very intense, and it would have been lessened hadn't it featured rape in some way. The important thing is that you can deal with things like that in an appropriate way, and you could do that in DAO. It was *so* satisfying to give that jerk Vaughn what he deserved in the end...

 

Also, every kind of believable world has stuff like that, and censoring it just serves to make the world feel sanitized. Consider DAI, where exactly that happened. And lastly, people are too easily offended. In most stories we deal with unpleasant things, so the presence of "offensive" stuff should be expected. In stories as well as the real world, we do not have the right not to be confronted with things we don't like. 

 

I believe stories should potentially deal with everything humans can do, regardless how terrible it is. If a topic fits a story, then it should never, ever be avoided just because it makes some people uncomfortable.   

[Salarian Master Race]

Whoever is on the vid is a Fugazi fan, so I'm cool with that.

 

 

 

And all this time i thought they were talking about bukake

[Fredward]

Handle whatever topics you like, it only becomes objectionable when these tragedies (as they are laid out to be) becomes kitschy, largely unexamined drapery for the character. I think Bioware chooses not to handle something if they know they cannot handle it well. And I'm not against that, really. Games aren't really the best medium for tracking or discussing or analyzing or interpreting the long term effects of things like rape or torture, they tend to become tacky character setpieces. Stand-ins for depth that could not be reached via more organic (and frankly, less cliched) means.

[Iakus]

I think censoring anything thats makes people uncomfortable is bad for any kind of story that wishes to be taken seriously. For instance, I found DAO's City Elf origin for a female Warden very intense, and it would have been lessened hadn't it featured rape in some way. The important thing is that you can deal with things like that in an appropriate way, and you could do that in DAO. It was *so* satisfying to give that jerk Vaughn what he deserved in the end...

 

Also, every kind of believable world has stuff like that, and censoring it just serves to make the world feel sanitized. Consider DAI, where exactly that happened. And lastly, people are too easily offended. In most stories we deal with unpleasant things, so the presence of "offensive" stuff should be expected. In stories as well as the real world, we do not have the right not to be confronted with things we don't like. 

 

I believe stories should potentially deal with everything humans can do, regardless how terrible it is. If a topic fits a story, then it should never, ever be avoided just because it makes some people uncomfortable.   

 

Hey, I happily gutted Vaughn for what he did too.  But the thing is, that situation was handled well.  And it was something to be taken seriously.  But the thing is, if it hadn't been handled so well, if it had been a poor use of Rape As Drama, then I don't think the origin story would be taken seriously at all.  Heck it might have been worse than if it had been a "sanitized" story.

 

And that's kinda the point.  If you deal with dark and weighty issues, you need a delicate touch.  It's a far greater challenge to treat this issues and the audience with respect.  And we have seen firsthand how spectacularly that can backfire.  It's not just an issue of the story, but of the storyteller as well.  If they are not confident that they can treat such a story with the gravity and class that it deserves, it's probably best avoided altogether.

[Ieldra]

Hey, I happily gutted Vaughn for what he did too.  But the thing is, that situation was handled well.  And it was something to be taken seriously.  But the thing is, if it hadn't been handled so well, if it had been a poor use of Rape As Drama, then I don't think the origin story would be taken seriously at all.  Heck it might have been worse than if it had been a "sanitized" story.

 

And that's kinda the point.  If you deal with dark and weighty issues, you need a delicate touch.  It's a far greater challenge to treat this issues and the audience with respect.  And we have seen firsthand how spectacularly that can backfire.  It's not just an issue of the story, but of the storyteller as well.  If they are not confident that they can treat such a story with the gravity and class that it deserves, it's probably best avoided altogether.

I agree...but only if it's about "dark and weighty" issues, rather than some less dark and weighty things people like to be offended about and treat as serious business.

[Ahglock]

How else we raise over-sensitive people who can't live in real world.

Your parents, school. Pretty much anyone but a business whose job is to make sales not give people a learning moment.

Every time free speech gets shut down at college because some whiny pretend adult can't handle uncomfortable topics an administrator should lose its wings. But a business makes its choices based on money so if children in adult bodies become the market change to that market.

[Ananka]

I'm confident in BW's ability to decide for themselves what they want to include in the game. Omitting rape isn't the same as being persuaded by sjws to not include it, give them a little credit. They're adults working at a multi-million company. It's BW themselves making the choice not to include it because they themselves don't consider it appropriate.

 

I don't think controversial topics necessarily should be avoided, but if they're included they should be handled with care and thought and not used as a cheap plot device, for horror/shock effect or just to add a little more drama.

[9TailsFox]

Your parents, school. Pretty much anyone but a business whose job is to make sales not give people a learning moment.

Every time free speech gets shut down at college because some whiny pretend adult can't handle uncomfortable topics an administrator should lose its wings. But a business makes its choices based on money so if children in adult bodies become the market change to that market.

Why did you seriously responded to sarcastic post.

[Arcian]

It's kind of like how they expected the ending of ME3 to make people think in all sorts of ways, and it just resulted in an angry fanbase. That wasn't even touching on a touchy social issue, that was just the end of a game. The writers must be very careful when handling pretty much anything, lest blowback occur.

The main issue with ME3's ending is that it insulted the intelligence of the player by expecting them to accept its ludicrous and ill-designed premise.
 

You know that colossal space microphone we've been building? We have no clue how it works, but we're going to use it anyway. Okay, it's plugged into the Citadel. Holy crap a space kid appears out of nowhere. It's telling me it is the Citadel, the leader of the Reapers AND the Reapers all at the same time. If it's the Citadel, why didn't it just just open itself to Sovereign before? Why did they need Saren or the Conduit?

 

Now the space kid is offering me three options - destroy the Reapers, control the Reapers or turn everything biological in the entire galaxy half-machine and upload LOVETHYCREATOR.exe to all synthetics. Ignoring for a moment how each of these options work on a technical level, how did the space microphone's engineers not know about these functions when they built it? Or are these functions of the space kid? Nope, the space kid just told me it was the space microphone that changed him to enable these options, and that he didn't have them before. But wait, now the space kid is telling me the space microphone is merely a crude power source. So which is correct? How did a simple, oversized battery give the space kid options he did not have before?

 

The space kid is telling me these are the only options, unless I want my civilization to fall. It also tells me his cycle of extinction will no longer work. But this space kid is the leader of the Reapers. Why should I trust anything he says? We're enemies. His 'options' could easily be traps to kill me so the Reaper invasion can proceed unimpeded. Can I argue against him on this point? Nope, I'm not allowed to do that. I'm forced to assume that this space kid, essentially my archenemy, is telling the truth.

 

Okay so to destroy the Reapers, I need to... shoot at some tubes? Wait, what? How is that going to direct the space microphone's energy at the Reapers? And how does this energy destroy the Reapers, exactly? Is it some kind of directed EMP? Or is it some kind of advanced software virus? How did the engineers not know about this? Also, destroying all AI's indiscriminately? If it's specific enough to target only AI's instead of all technology or even all forms of matter, why can't it be made specific enough to target only Reapers? As Legion showed me on Rannoch, the architecture of Reaper code is considerably different from other types of AI. Not only that, I happen to be in the possession of a Reaper IFF, which should make it considerably easier to target the Reapers only. Still doesn't begin to explain how shooting the tubes accomplishes any of this.

 

The second choice is to control the Reapers, I need to grab on to a pair of electrified handles and... disintegrate. Okay then. Apparently this will give me control of the Reapers while also killing me, which makes no sense. Or, as the space kid tries to imply, it will use me to create something in my image that controls the Reapers. First question, what part of me is necessary to create this Reaper controlling image? Do I HAVE to be disintegrated for it? Can't I just wear an advanced electrode cap and have it copy my brain and let the brain AI copy rule the Reapers while I go back to my love interest and my friends and enjoy some well-needed R&R? Also, how can I trust that this copy won't just betray my ideals, obey the space kid and continue the cycle? And even if the AI copy did stay true to my ideals, where would the space kid go after my copy takes over? And why would the space kid relinquish control of the Reapers in the first place? Will my AI copy control the space kid as well?

 

And the third and final choice, uniting organic and synthetic to end the eternal conflict between organic and synthetic. First of all, how is that going to end hostilities? Unless it causes galaxy-wide brain washing by suppressing any dissenting view or opinion, organics opposed to synthetics and vice versa aren't going to magically change their opinions because they're now full of tiny nanomachines and copies of LOVETHYCREATOR.exe, respectively. And if it does cause galaxy-wide brain washing, is everlasting peace really worth it if it requires the wholesale sacrifice of freedom? And the transformation itself, should people not be given a choice? Should peace come at the cost of self-determination? Moreover, how does this even work on a practical level? How does the space microphone infuse organic molecules with nanomachines? Even if they're incredibly light weight it's still the matter of transforming the collective biomass of an entire galaxy in the matter of a few seconds. There is just no way that the space microphone holds that much building material... and even if it did, the rapid change would generate so much waste heat that all living things would disintegrate. And how exactly does me jumping into a beam of energy and disintegrating cause the space microphone to transform the entire galaxy into organic-synthetic hybrids? Being full of cybernetics does not make me a walking blueprint.

 

Nah, I don't trust any of these options. How about I just shoot the space kid and try to find a way to use the space microphone without him? Oh look, now he's mad and talking with a Reaper voice, telling me the cycle will continue even though he just said not five minutes ago that the cycle no longer works. For whatever reason I just stand there, looking solemn doing nothing while my civilization falls but Liara's underground USB magically enables the next cycle to defeat the Reapers, so I got that going for me, which is nice.

This ending is built on a broken wrists-level of shoddy handwaving and for some reason BioWare thought it was not just going to fly, but inspire high-level intellectual speculation among the fans. Self-delusion on a truly remarkable level.